TObound
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Re: Air Canada A220 launch - Interior Picture and New routes

Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:49 pm

wrongwayup wrote:
Thomaas wrote:
TObound wrote:
It's incredible that the mainline 223 will have one more seat than the Rouge 319. This is what has me questioning what the point of Rouge is. Maybe AC can replace Rouge 319s with mainline 223s in due course and wind down Rouge.


I think that over time you'll see Rouge moving its narrow body fleet to A320/A321 sized aircraft, given that AC can operate the mainline product at lower cost in that size category. AC can hand down quite a few A320s once the 737MAX deliveries resume. They have already been opportunistically purchasing second hand A321s for Rouge on the second hand market.


Definitely. Bought 4x A321s from WOW back in the fall, and have sourced 2-4 more from leasing companies following their liquidation. Add this to the 5 new ones they leased in a few years back. Also adding at least 3 A320s on lease ex-Interjet. From there as MAXes replace mainline A320/A321s those aircraft will be transitioned over to Rouge and A319s will depart as quickly as the pilot agreement allows.


So what's Rouge's limit on narrowbodies and widebodies now? According to Wiki, AC has 41 320s and 15 321s. I am guessing Rouge is going to be maxed out at fleet size pretty quickly in the coming 2 years. Even if only 75% of those mainline retirements go to Rouge and most of that replaces existing aircraft at Rouge, that would still be incredible growth.
 
EChid
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Re: Air Canada A220 launch - Interior Picture and New routes

Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:32 pm

TObound wrote:
wrongwayup wrote:
Thomaas wrote:

I think that over time you'll see Rouge moving its narrow body fleet to A320/A321 sized aircraft, given that AC can operate the mainline product at lower cost in that size category. AC can hand down quite a few A320s once the 737MAX deliveries resume. They have already been opportunistically purchasing second hand A321s for Rouge on the second hand market.


Definitely. Bought 4x A321s from WOW back in the fall, and have sourced 2-4 more from leasing companies following their liquidation. Add this to the 5 new ones they leased in a few years back. Also adding at least 3 A320s on lease ex-Interjet. From there as MAXes replace mainline A320/A321s those aircraft will be transitioned over to Rouge and A319s will depart as quickly as the pilot agreement allows.


So what's Rouge's limit on narrowbodies and widebodies now? According to Wiki, AC has 41 320s and 15 321s. I am guessing Rouge is going to be maxed out at fleet size pretty quickly in the coming 2 years. Even if only 75% of those mainline retirements go to Rouge and most of that replaces existing aircraft at Rouge, that would still be incredible growth.

I'm not sure even 75% of the mainline retirements would go to Rouge. Some of the mainline A320s are properly old and will just immediately go to the desert.
2018: DRW-PER-HKG-ICN-MEL-AVV-BNE-OOL-SYD-YYZ-YYZ-YUL-YVR-PDX-SEA-SFO-PEK-KIX-CDG-IST-NRT-HND-BKK-FAT; AC J-TK J-OZ F-DL F-TG J/F-NH J/F-CX J-VA J
 
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WildcatYXU
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Re: Air Canada A220 launch - Interior Picture and New routes

Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:05 pm

EChid wrote:
I'm not sure even 75% of the mainline retirements would go to Rouge. Some of the mainline A320s are properly old and will just immediately go to the desert.


Correct. According to airfleets.net AC is currently operating 38 A320 aircraft. 30 of those are between 27 - 29 years of age. I suspect these will go straight to the desert when replaced. The rest is between 16 - 17 years old. These could be transferred to Rouge.
310, 319, 320, 321, 321N, 332, 333, 343, 345, 346, 732, 735, 73G, 738, 744, 752, 762, 763, 77L, 77W, 788, AT4, AT7, BEH, CR2, CRA, CR9, DH1, DH3, DH4, E45, E75, E90, E95, F28, F50, F100, MD82, Saab 340, YAK40
 
wrongwayup
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Re: Air Canada A220 launch - Interior Picture and New routes

Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:12 pm

I'm assuming the fleet size at Rouge is limited but the aircraft gauge (e.g. size of A32x) is not. I'm not basing that on anything - just a working theory.
 
questions
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Re: Air Canada A220 launch - Interior Picture and New routes

Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:05 pm

wrongwayup wrote:
questions wrote:
The extra inches required to insert the wall is significantly less than the space required for an additional inch of seat pitch for 25-30 rows of Y seating.


Thing is the position of the seats at the exit row kind of dictate where you can allocate inches. So the extra space required for the full bulkhead would have to be taken from only the rows in front of the exit.


Good catch. Thanks.

Regardless, airlines managed cabin design with hard walls between cabins for decades prior to the visual cabins dividers... and they made money.
 
TranscendZac
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Re: Air Canada A220 launch - Interior Picture and New routes

Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:16 pm

Simply stunning aircraft and the livery compliments it well. The interior looks fantastic as well.
Zac
 
wrongwayup
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Re: Air Canada A220 launch - Interior Picture and New routes

Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:43 pm

questions wrote:
... and they made money.


No, they didn't... not until around 2010 anyway. Airline financial performance prior to the consolidation that occurred post-GFC was absolutely terrible.
 
questions
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Re: Air Canada A220 launch - Interior Picture and New routes

Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:54 am

wrongwayup wrote:
questions wrote:
... and they made money.


No, they didn't... not until around 2010 anyway. Airline financial performance prior to the consolidation that occurred post-GFC was absolutely terrible.


And the industry’s poor financial performance was caused because of a hard wall between F and Y. Based on your argument AC is going to fill bankruptcy because of the hard wall used on the A220. :roll:


Back on topic, kudos again to AC for a sharp looking aircraft.
 
alexdelzotto1
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Re: Air Canada A220 launch - Interior Picture and New routes

Sat Aug 17, 2019 6:46 am

YYZLGA wrote:
Thomaas wrote:
I think that over time you'll see Rouge moving its narrow body fleet to A320/A321 sized aircraft, given that AC can operate the mainline product at lower cost in that size category. AC can hand down quite a few A320s once the 737MAX deliveries resume. They have already been opportunistically purchasing second hand A321s for Rouge on the second hand market.


They actually bought brand new 321s for Rouge.

Any clarity on when the actual first flight of the 223 will be? None of them have been loaded into the schedule yet, right?


First flight seems to be AC317 YUL-YYC on Jan 27.

Other routes are
YUL-LGA March 5
YUL-YEG March 5
YUL-YWG April 5
 
ironyClad
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Re: Air Canada A220 launch - Interior Picture and New routes

Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:07 pm

YYZORD wrote:
Could YYZ-SNA/ONT be other possibilities for the A220? What other routes can AC pull off from YYZ with the A220? Can SLC come back or any other routes?


As I've stated in another thread, I hope that the introduction of the A220 and the redesign SLC combine to make this and other routes to SLC a possibility.

The articles I've read announcing YUL-SEA (wire service article from the Canadian Press, see [url="https://www.thestar.com/business/2019/08/14/air-canada-launches-routes-with-fuel-efficient-a220-to-seize-us-market-share.html]here[/url] here for instance) have included this statement:

In February, Air Canada said it planned to grow its share of the U.S. international transit market to two per cent from roughly 1.3 per cent— though no timeline was set.


As a frequent US-Canada flyer, this excites me a lot. Increased competition should hopefully lead to lower prices, and more direct flights.
 
Dominion301
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Re: Air Canada A220 launch - Interior Picture and New routes

Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:49 am

TObound wrote:
Thomaas wrote:
TObound wrote:
It's incredible that the mainline 223 will have one more seat than the Rouge 319. This is what has me questioning what the point of Rouge is. Maybe AC can replace Rouge 319s with mainline 223s in due course and wind down Rouge.


I think that over time you'll see Rouge moving its narrow body fleet to A320/A321 sized aircraft, given that AC can operate the mainline product at lower cost in that size category. AC can hand down quite a few A320s once the 737MAX deliveries resume. They have already been opportunistically purchasing second hand A321s for Rouge on the second hand market.


Again though. What's the point? AC can put on the same density at mainline apparently.


Cheaper F/A pay scale and no PTVs.
 
Speedalive
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Re: Air Canada A220 launch - Interior Picture and New routes

Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:36 am

Dominion301 wrote:
TObound wrote:
Thomaas wrote:

I think that over time you'll see Rouge moving its narrow body fleet to A320/A321 sized aircraft, given that AC can operate the mainline product at lower cost in that size category. AC can hand down quite a few A320s once the 737MAX deliveries resume. They have already been opportunistically purchasing second hand A321s for Rouge on the second hand market.


Again though. What's the point? AC can put on the same density at mainline apparently.


Cheaper F/A pay scale and no PTVs.

Cheaper pilot scale too. Maybe the extra A220 capacity might have to do with extra usable cabin space?
 
 
Dominion301
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Re: Air Canada A220 launch - Interior Picture and New routes

Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:41 pm

Shamrockmaple wrote:
https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/airlineroute/285923/air-canada-outlines-airbus-a220-operations-in-1q20/


Interesting how out of YYZ, they'll be used on transcons on weekdays and on Rapidairs on weekends in the first few weeks.
 
baje427
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Re: Air Canada A220 launch - Interior Picture and New routes

Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:09 pm

I wonder if these will see any Caribbean ops.
 
EChid
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Re: Air Canada A220 launch - Interior Picture and New routes

Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:53 pm

baje427 wrote:
I wonder if these will see any Caribbean ops.

Doubtful. That's firm Rouge territory.
2018: DRW-PER-HKG-ICN-MEL-AVV-BNE-OOL-SYD-YYZ-YYZ-YUL-YVR-PDX-SEA-SFO-PEK-KIX-CDG-IST-NRT-HND-BKK-FAT; AC J-TK J-OZ F-DL F-TG J/F-NH J/F-CX J-VA J
 
wrongwayup
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Re: Air Canada A220 launch - Interior Picture and New routes

Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:03 pm

questions wrote:
wrongwayup wrote:
questions wrote:
... and they made money.


No, they didn't... not until around 2010 anyway. Airline financial performance prior to the consolidation that occurred post-GFC was absolutely terrible.


And the industry’s poor financial performance was caused because of a hard wall between F and Y. Based on your argument AC is going to fill bankruptcy because of the hard wall used on the A220. :roll:


Back on topic, kudos again to AC for a sharp looking aircraft.


I think it's pretty clear that's not what I said, please don't put words in my mouth. I'm not saying airlines made or lost money on the basis of cabin dividers - only that the combination of revenue and cost strategies (or lack thereof) employed over the period from de-regulation through to the post 9/11 era did not generate positive returns for airline investors, so to say that they did not "make money" as you claimed.

Densification of cabins has been a pretty major contributor to improving airline finances over the years, removing or shrinking non-revenue generating real estate like lavs and galleys and adding seats. E.g. look at the take-rate on the SpaceFlex cabin in the A320, which moves a pair of lavs forward of the rear doors to where half of the aft galley used to be, in exchange for an additional row of seating. I suspect if AC had the opportunity to re-pitch rows 12-18 and remove the wall to add a row 11, they would have definitely considered it, but that there's not enough inches to do so.
 
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longhauler
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Re: Air Canada A220 launch - Interior Picture and New routes

Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:13 pm

EChid wrote:
baje427 wrote:
I wonder if these will see any Caribbean ops.

Doubtful. That's firm Rouge territory.

Quite a bit of the Caribbean is flown by mainline. AUA CUR PLS ANU for example. The long legs and low seat mile cost may bring even more to mainline.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
chrisa330
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Re: Air Canada A220 launch - Interior Picture and New routes

Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:52 pm

longhauler wrote:
EChid wrote:
baje427 wrote:
I wonder if these will see any Caribbean ops.

Doubtful. That's firm Rouge territory.

Quite a bit of the Caribbean is flown by mainline. AUA CUR PLS ANU for example. The long legs and low seat mile cost may bring even more to mainline.


Are the A220s for AC coming with ETOPS or Overwater equipment? Not sure if these routes would need it though.
 
INFINITI329
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Re: Air Canada A220 launch - Interior Picture and New routes

Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:41 pm

I flew Rouge for the first time yesterday on a 319 and I felt like a sardine. I am under 6ft and felt like I was getting up and personal with seat in front of me. I hope the AC 220 experience isn't like this. To be fair I never been a fan of airlines and their alter-ego flying to include Rouge. After finally experiencing it has become a harder no for me. I am really surprised Canadians have excepted this from their flag carrier
 
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CFM565A1
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Re: Air Canada A220 launch - Interior Picture and New routes

Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:12 pm

WildcatYXU wrote:
EChid wrote:
I'm not sure even 75% of the mainline retirements would go to Rouge. Some of the mainline A320s are properly old and will just immediately go to the desert.


Correct. According to airfleets.net AC is currently operating 38 A320 aircraft. 30 of those are between 27 - 29 years of age. I suspect these will go straight to the desert when replaced. The rest is between 16 - 17 years old. These could be transferred to Rouge.


The 38 number is actually incorrect, they (AC) keep changing their minds like everything else the last 4 months of the En Route magazine have had incorrect numbers for a few of the planes :lol: . None of the 320s are gone except for FIN 202. I don’t know if the -214s will ever see Rouge (they planned to repaint them all if the Max wasn’t grounded). I think they’ll just fly out slowly to retirement years down the road like the 321s.
Flown: C172-M/N/P/R/S , P2006T, PA-34-200T, DH8A/C Been on: B1900D, DH8A/C ERJ-145, CRJ-100/200, DH8D, CRJ-700/705/900, E-175/190, A319/320/321, 737-200/300/400/600/700/800/900ER/M8, MD-82/83, 757-200/300, 767-300, A330-300, 787-9, 777-300ER, F28-4000.
 
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CFM565A1
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Re: Air Canada A220 launch - Interior Picture and New routes

Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:16 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
I flew Rouge for the first time yesterday on a 319 and I felt like a sardine. I am under 6ft and felt like I was getting up and personal with seat in front of me. I hope the AC 220 experience isn't like this. To be fair I never been a fan of airlines and their alter-ego flying to include Rouge. After finally experiencing it has become a harder no for me. I am really surprised Canadians have excepted this from their flag carrier


We’ve (accepted) it because there’s no alternative. I’ll maintain that any mainline WestJet in the last 5-10 years has been about equal to the quality of Rouge. Like everywhere else, Canadian air travellers whine and complain to no end about Rouge but still fly them because they only care about $$$ and if AC is the cheapest option they don’t care and book it anyways and then continue to complain. The cycle this continues...
Flown: C172-M/N/P/R/S , P2006T, PA-34-200T, DH8A/C Been on: B1900D, DH8A/C ERJ-145, CRJ-100/200, DH8D, CRJ-700/705/900, E-175/190, A319/320/321, 737-200/300/400/600/700/800/900ER/M8, MD-82/83, 757-200/300, 767-300, A330-300, 787-9, 777-300ER, F28-4000.
 
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767333ER
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Re: Air Canada A220 launch - Interior Picture and New routes

Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:31 pm

TObound wrote:
9252fly wrote:
TObound wrote:

Is the a map of the 223 to confirm anywhere?


https://www.aircanada.com/ca/en/aco/hom ... fleet.html


Thanks for that.

I gotta say. 30" seat pitch on mainline. I'm starting to wonder what the product differentiation is between AC mainline and Rouge.

Would one less row of Y and 31" pitch throughout Y have hurt their business case that much? They'd still have been carrying 12 more seats than the 319. As it stands, this looks like a cramped replacement for the 320. Just 9 seats less than that platform.

Well the difference is a rouge narrow body is 29” which is worse AND the rest of the product is cheaper too. Everyone else is using 30” pitch now so they are too. You also can’t compare it to the A320 which easily could be a a cabin with 11 extra seats if they had redone the forward closet area and added the extra 2 J seats like the A321. Then you could make a more comparable configuration to the newer planes with the lavs in the tail and you’d have even more seats without changing seat pitch so it’s really not that crammed in. I’m 6’1” and 30” pitch is fine and is totally tolerable if I don’t slouch. 29” is not fine, but this is not 29”
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WildcatYXU
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Re: Air Canada A220 launch - Interior Picture and New routes

Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:43 am

CFM565A1 wrote:

The 38 number is actually incorrect, they (AC) keep changing their minds like everything else the last 4 months of the En Route magazine have had incorrect numbers for a few of the planes :lol: . None of the 320s are gone except for FIN 202. I don’t know if the -214s will ever see Rouge (they planned to repaint them all if the Max wasn’t grounded). I think they’ll just fly out slowly to retirement years down the road like the 321s.


Thanks for the correction. So AC plans to paint the -214s in current mainline livery? How about the interiors? Any plans to upgrade them?
310, 319, 320, 321, 321N, 332, 333, 343, 345, 346, 732, 735, 73G, 738, 744, 752, 762, 763, 77L, 77W, 788, AT4, AT7, BEH, CR2, CRA, CR9, DH1, DH3, DH4, E45, E75, E90, E95, F28, F50, F100, MD82, Saab 340, YAK40
 
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longhauler
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Re: Air Canada A220 launch - Interior Picture and New routes

Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:55 am

Dominion301 wrote:
TObound wrote:
Again though. What's the point? AC can put on the same density at mainline apparently.


Cheaper F/A pay scale and no PTVs.

The reasons for Rouge's existence goes far beyond that.

As noted, Air Canada could (and has) made higher density aircraft for low yield destinations in the past, as has Canadian Airlines.

As for wages, it's not just F/As. But, for the record, new hire F/As that go to mainline are on the same starting wage as Rouge. (It ain't pretty). The rest of Air Canada's employees, Gate agents, Baggage agents, groomers, dispatchers, etc. etc etc. have in their contracts a "B scale", That wage is a ratio based on the number of Rouge passengers to Mainline passengers. So the bottom (new hire) percentage are paid "Rouge wages" even when not working a Rouge flight. When, as they climb up the seniority list, they go back to mainline wages when into the mainline ratio.

I have my own theories about why Rouge is here, but they are just my own opinion. Because let's face it, dense aircraft and B scales could have been done at mainline!
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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CFM565A1
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Re: Air Canada A220 launch - Interior Picture and New routes

Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:52 am

WildcatYXU wrote:
CFM565A1 wrote:

The 38 number is actually incorrect, they (AC) keep changing their minds like everything else the last 4 months of the En Route magazine have had incorrect numbers for a few of the planes :lol: . None of the 320s are gone except for FIN 202. I don’t know if the -214s will ever see Rouge (they planned to repaint them all if the Max wasn’t grounded). I think they’ll just fly out slowly to retirement years down the road like the 321s.


Thanks for the correction. So AC plans to paint the -214s in current mainline livery? How about the interiors? Any plans to upgrade them?


That was the alleged plan but with no 737s, everything is mixed up right now. I would presume no interior upgrades will be ever done on the 320/321s. Part of the reason why we see that Rouge is getting all the newer Airbus additions during the max grounding is because the Rouge interiors are more redistribute sourced now. If AC had planned a new interior or got NEOs, the 321s would be getting new interiors probably. Just a hunch though...
Flown: C172-M/N/P/R/S , P2006T, PA-34-200T, DH8A/C Been on: B1900D, DH8A/C ERJ-145, CRJ-100/200, DH8D, CRJ-700/705/900, E-175/190, A319/320/321, 737-200/300/400/600/700/800/900ER/M8, MD-82/83, 757-200/300, 767-300, A330-300, 787-9, 777-300ER, F28-4000.
 
Someone83
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Re: Air Canada A220 launch - Interior Picture and New routes

Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:51 am

longhauler wrote:
queb wrote:
Jean Leloup wrote:

the first 6 months they will initially deployed from Montreal and Toronto on routes such as to Ottawa, Winnipeg, Calgary, Edmonton and New York – La Guardia

No. The inaugural for the type at AC is on May 04, 2020 as stated. YUL SEA YUL and YYZ SJC YYZ.

The old school thought of keeping them close to home was not used for the last couple of inaugural’s. In fact the MAX was about the smoothest entry into service AC had ever experienced. They seem to have confidence in this aircraft too.


Or January 16th, which is the EIS........

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... s-in-1q20/
 
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longhauler
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Re: Air Canada A220 launch - Interior Picture and New routes

Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:49 pm

Someone83 wrote:
longhauler wrote:
queb wrote:

No. The inaugural for the type at AC is on May 04, 2020 as stated. YUL SEA YUL and YYZ SJC YYZ.

The old school thought of keeping them close to home was not used for the last couple of inaugural’s. In fact the MAX was about the smoothest entry into service AC had ever experienced. They seem to have confidence in this aircraft too.


Or January 16th, which is the EIS........


As I noted and corrected above.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
Dominion301
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Re: Air Canada A220 launch - Interior Picture and New routes

Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:58 pm

longhauler wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
TObound wrote:
Again though. What's the point? AC can put on the same density at mainline apparently.


Cheaper F/A pay scale and no PTVs.

The reasons for Rouge's existence goes far beyond that.

As noted, Air Canada could (and has) made higher density aircraft for low yield destinations in the past, as has Canadian Airlines.

As for wages, it's not just F/As. But, for the record, new hire F/As that go to mainline are on the same starting wage as Rouge. (It ain't pretty). The rest of Air Canada's employees, Gate agents, Baggage agents, groomers, dispatchers, etc. etc etc. have in their contracts a "B scale", That wage is a ratio based on the number of Rouge passengers to Mainline passengers. So the bottom (new hire) percentage are paid "Rouge wages" even when not working a Rouge flight. When, as they climb up the seniority list, they go back to mainline wages when into the mainline ratio.

I have my own theories about why Rouge is here, but they are just my own opinion. Because let's face it, dense aircraft and B scales could have been done at mainline!


Wow that's far more complex than has been (somewhat) communicated to the general public. It's interesting how Rouge has morphed from nearly all leisure at the beginning to now serving what were once legacy DC-9 mainline routes such as YQB-YYZ or YFC-YYZ. Having said that, Rouge to AC seems to have a much clearer picture of what it is vs say what Eurowings is to LH.

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