bob75013
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Lion Air 'urgently requires' more 737 MAX jets to support growth - co-founder

Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:09 pm

Looks like the firm that operated the first MAX to crash seems to have enough confidence in the model to want more of them.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/1-lion-a ... 45840.html
 
Etheereal
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Re: Lion Air 'urgently requires' more 737 MAX jets to support growth - co-founder

Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:14 pm

Isnt the max pretty much grounded worldwide? Why would they need the MAX when A can do it better? :stirthepot: :stirthepot:
JetBuddy wrote:
"737 slides off the runway" is the new "Florida man"..

:lol:
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Lion Air 'urgently requires' more 737 MAX jets to support growth - co-founder

Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:18 pm

It should be interesting to see the ticket prices on the first flights when the 737 MAX returns to service.
 
bob75013
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Re: Lion Air 'urgently requires' more 737 MAX jets to support growth - co-founder

Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:20 pm

Etheereal wrote:
Isnt the max pretty much grounded worldwide? Why would they need the MAX when A can do it better? :stirthepot: :stirthepot:


Sounds like Lion would prefer the grounding to end sooner rather than later.

So if Lion goes to A, they can expect to receive their new planes by, what, about 2029 -- right??
Last edited by bob75013 on Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Lion Air 'urgently requires' more 737 MAX jets to support growth - co-founder

Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:20 pm

bob75013 wrote:
Looks like the firm that operated the first MAX to crash seems to have enough confidence in the model to want more of them.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/1-lion-a ... 45840.html


That's not what he says.

He said the low-cost airline, which had previously threatened to cancel its order for 187 jets worth $21 billion at list prices, would need to be satisfied with the outcome of negotiations with Boeing before taking the planes.

"If they don't satisfy us, we will cancel the contract," Kirana said.


He is saying they are desperately short of aircraft in light of the 737MAX grounding. How many of his aircraft are now grounded or delayed? 30?
 
bob75013
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Re: Lion Air 'urgently requires' more 737 MAX jets to support growth - co-founder

Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:24 pm

VSMUT wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
Looks like the firm that operated the first MAX to crash seems to have enough confidence in the model to want more of them.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/1-lion-a ... 45840.html


That's not what he says.

He said the low-cost airline, which had previously threatened to cancel its order for 187 jets worth $21 billion at list prices, would need to be satisfied with the outcome of negotiations with Boeing before taking the planes.

"If they don't satisfy us, we will cancel the contract," Kirana said.


He is saying they are desperately short of aircraft in light of the 737MAX grounding. How many of his aircraft are now grounded or delayed? 30?


He's negotiating just like every other operator/operator to be. He' also saying he desperately needs more MAXs -- now.

Ans if he canels the contract he'll wait 10 years for Airbus to give him the planes he needs right now.
 
AirbusA322
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Re: Lion Air 'urgently requires' more 737 MAX jets to support growth - co-founder

Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:34 pm

Well then they should top leasing all their aircraft out to other operators in the Pacific and Middle East.
 
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Re: Lion Air 'urgently requires' more 737 MAX jets to support growth - co-founder

Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:36 pm

bob75013 wrote:
Looks like the firm that operated the first MAX to crash seems to have enough confidence in the model to want more of them.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/1-lion-a ... 45840.html


Yeah, no. The clue is in the very first line of the article...

Needs to be satisfied with Boeing negotiations to take planes
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bob75013
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Re: Lion Air 'urgently requires' more 737 MAX jets to support growth - co-founder

Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:49 pm

scbriml wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
Looks like the firm that operated the first MAX to crash seems to have enough confidence in the model to want more of them.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/1-lion-a ... 45840.html


Yeah, no. The clue is in the very first line of the article...

Needs to be satisfied with Boeing negotiations to take planes


And if Boeing offers what it thinks is a reasonable deal and Lion wants more, and Boeing says "NO." What will Lion do? Cancel the deal? -- I don't think so. Where will it get the planes it "urgently" needs? Centainly not from Airbus.
 
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Momo1435
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Re: Lion Air 'urgently requires' more 737 MAX jets to support growth - co-founder

Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:16 pm

bob75013 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
Looks like the firm that operated the first MAX to crash seems to have enough confidence in the model to want more of them.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/1-lion-a ... 45840.html


Yeah, no. The clue is in the very first line of the article...

Needs to be satisfied with Boeing negotiations to take planes


And if Boeing offers what it thinks is a reasonable deal and Lion wants more, and Boeing says "NO." What will Lion do? Cancel the deal? -- I don't think so. Where will it get the planes it "urgently" needs? Centainly not from Airbus.

Why would Boeing say NO to an accepted deal they offered in the 1st place. That doesn't make sense.

Lion Air also have a lot of A320neo on order, they could expand on those by looking at early A320neo leases and at used A320ceo's and 737 NGs. They do have options if they won't take more MAXs.

The big news is that they have not yet fully rejected the MAX, which they did seem to steer towards right after the grounding.
 
WIederling
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Re: Lion Air 'urgently requires' more 737 MAX jets to support growth - co-founder

Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:30 pm

Momo1435 wrote:
Why would Boeing say NO to an accepted deal they offered in the 1st place. That doesn't make sense.


Whatever good conditions they got : it was for a (stays) certified plane, save enough in context of established state of the art.
Murphy is an optimist
 
bob75013
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Re: Lion Air 'urgently requires' more 737 MAX jets to support growth - co-founder

Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:31 pm

Momo1435 wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
scbriml wrote:

Yeah, no. The clue is in the very first line of the article...



And if Boeing offers what it thinks is a reasonable deal and Lion wants more, and Boeing says "NO." What will Lion do? Cancel the deal? -- I don't think so. Where will it get the planes it "urgently" needs? Centainly not from Airbus.

Why would Boeing say NO to an accepted deal they offered in the 1st place. That doesn't make sense.



Where did I say that?

The article seems to say that Lion and Boeing are still negotiating..
 
KFLLCFII
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Re: Lion Air 'urgently requires' more 737 MAX jets to support growth - co-founder

Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:59 pm

Sounds like Lion Air wants to take over Boeing's MAX flight test program.

And why not? We've already known long before last year's crash why they buy so many "extra" aircraft...
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
Etheereal
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Re: Lion Air 'urgently requires' more 737 MAX jets to support growth - co-founder

Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:06 pm

bob75013 wrote:
So if Lion goes to A, they can expect to receive their new planes by, what, about 2029 -- right??

If there' no more delays on the GTF engines :rotfl:
JetBuddy wrote:
"737 slides off the runway" is the new "Florida man"..

:lol:
 
VSMUT
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Re: Lion Air 'urgently requires' more 737 MAX jets to support growth - co-founder

Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:22 pm

bob75013 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
Looks like the firm that operated the first MAX to crash seems to have enough confidence in the model to want more of them.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/1-lion-a ... 45840.html


That's not what he says.

He said the low-cost airline, which had previously threatened to cancel its order for 187 jets worth $21 billion at list prices, would need to be satisfied with the outcome of negotiations with Boeing before taking the planes.

"If they don't satisfy us, we will cancel the contract," Kirana said.


He is saying they are desperately short of aircraft in light of the 737MAX grounding. How many of his aircraft are now grounded or delayed? 30?


He's negotiating just like every other operator/operator to be. He' also saying he desperately needs more MAXs -- now.

Ans if he canels the contract he'll wait 10 years for Airbus to give him the planes he needs right now.


That's not what you claimed:

bob75013 wrote:
Looks like the firm that operated the first MAX to crash seems to have enough confidence in the model to want more of them.


It clearly isn't confidence.
 
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Momo1435
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Re: Lion Air 'urgently requires' more 737 MAX jets to support growth - co-founder

Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:25 pm

bob75013 wrote:
Momo1435 wrote:
bob75013 wrote:

And if Boeing offers what it thinks is a reasonable deal and Lion wants more, and Boeing says "NO." What will Lion do? Cancel the deal? -- I don't think so. Where will it get the planes it "urgently" needs? Centainly not from Airbus.

Why would Boeing say NO to an accepted deal they offered in the 1st place. That doesn't make sense.



Where did I say that?

The article seems to say that Lion and Boeing are still negotiating..

I read your quote like the title of the thread, more 737 MAX instead of more compensation.
 
chrisp390
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Re: Lion Air 'urgently requires' more 737 MAX jets to support growth - co-founder

Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:28 pm

Rumor is the US embassy stepped in and did a lot of talking with Lion Air and the Indonesian government to save the order. If Lion Air had their way the Boeing contract would have been canceled already, at this point Lion Air seeing as they can’t cancel just want to get as much out of it as they can.
 
bob75013
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Re: Lion Air 'urgently requires' more 737 MAX jets to support growth - co-founder

Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:26 pm

chrisp390 wrote:
Rumor is the US embassy stepped in and did a lot of talking with Lion Air and the Indonesian government to save the order. If Lion Air had their way the Boeing contract would have been canceled already, at this point Lion Air seeing as they can’t cancel just want to get as much out of it as they can.


and your source is ------- what?
 
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Re: Lion Air 'urgently requires' more 737 MAX jets to support growth - co-founder

Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:49 pm

bob75013 wrote:
chrisp390 wrote:
Rumor is the US embassy stepped in and did a lot of talking with Lion Air and the Indonesian government to save the order. If Lion Air had their way the Boeing contract would have been canceled already, at this point Lion Air seeing as they can’t cancel just want to get as much out of it as they can.


and your source is ------- what?


Let’s keep politics out.. https://edition.cnn.com/2011/11/18/business/boeing-lion-air-indonesia-analysis/index.html

Is there someone that can give a full translation. I feel we might be half informed / smart quoted here.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
chiad
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Re: Lion Air 'urgently requires' more 737 MAX jets to support growth - co-founder

Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:23 pm

bob75013 wrote:
Etheereal wrote:
Isnt the max pretty much grounded worldwide? Why would they need the MAX when A can do it better? :stirthepot: :stirthepot:


Sounds like Lion would prefer the grounding to end sooner rather than later.

So if Lion goes to A, they can expect to receive their new planes by, what, about 2029 -- right??


But Lion Air already has a massive A320NEO order (from 2013) for up to 234 frames.
https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... craft.html

I just wonder when the delivery starts.
 
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keesje
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Re: Lion Air 'urgently requires' more 737 MAX jets to support growth - co-founder

Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:07 pm

chiad wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
Etheereal wrote:
Isnt the max pretty much grounded worldwide? Why would they need the MAX when A can do it better? :stirthepot: :stirthepot:


Sounds like Lion would prefer the grounding to end sooner rather than later.

So if Lion goes to A, they can expect to receive their new planes by, what, about 2029 -- right??


But Lion Air already has a massive A320NEO order (from 2013) for up to 234 frames.
https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... craft.html

I just wonder when the delivery starts.


Lionair placed huge orders for 737NG, 737MAX and A321. But didn't take them as aggresively over the last 20 years.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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scbriml
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Re: Lion Air 'urgently requires' more 737 MAX jets to support growth - co-founder

Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:22 pm

bob75013 wrote:
Where will it get the planes it "urgently" needs? Centainly not from Airbus.


Why not? Lion has a small matter of 113 A320neo and 65 A321neo on order. :scratchchin:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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747megatop
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Re: Lion Air 'urgently requires' more 737 MAX jets to support growth - co-founder

Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:27 pm

bob75013 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
Looks like the firm that operated the first MAX to crash seems to have enough confidence in the model to want more of them.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/1-lion-a ... 45840.html


Yeah, no. The clue is in the very first line of the article...

Needs to be satisfied with Boeing negotiations to take planes


And if Boeing offers what it thinks is a reasonable deal and Lion wants more, and Boeing says "NO." What will Lion do? Cancel the deal? -- I don't think so. Where will it get the planes it "urgently" needs? Centainly not from Airbus.

COMAC? :stirthepot:
 
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Polot
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Re: Lion Air 'urgently requires' more 737 MAX jets to support growth - co-founder

Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:28 pm

keesje wrote:
chiad wrote:
bob75013 wrote:

Sounds like Lion would prefer the grounding to end sooner rather than later.

So if Lion goes to A, they can expect to receive their new planes by, what, about 2029 -- right??


But Lion Air already has a massive A320NEO order (from 2013) for up to 234 frames.
https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... craft.html

I just wonder when the delivery starts.


Lionair placed huge orders for 737NG, 737MAX and A321. But didn't take them as aggresively over the last 20 years.

In the last 10 years Lion air has taken 187 737s and 44 A320s (plus a sizeable number of ATRs). That is pretty aggressive.
 
chiad
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Re: Lion Air 'urgently requires' more 737 MAX jets to support growth - co-founder

Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:32 pm

Polot wrote:
keesje wrote:
chiad wrote:

But Lion Air already has a massive A320NEO order (from 2013) for up to 234 frames.
https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... craft.html

I just wonder when the delivery starts.


Lionair placed huge orders for 737NG, 737MAX and A321. But didn't take them as aggresively over the last 20 years.

In the last 10 years Lion air has taken 187 737s and 44 A320s (plus a sizeable number of ATRs). That is pretty aggressive.


What happened to the 44 A320CEO's?
And when is the first delivery of the NEO's?
 
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Polot
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Re: Lion Air 'urgently requires' more 737 MAX jets to support growth - co-founder

Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:45 pm

chiad wrote:
Polot wrote:
keesje wrote:

Lionair placed huge orders for 737NG, 737MAX and A321. But didn't take them as aggresively over the last 20 years.

In the last 10 years Lion air has taken 187 737s and 44 A320s (plus a sizeable number of ATRs). That is pretty aggressive.


What happened to the 44 A320CEO's?
And when is the first delivery of the NEO's?

The 44 A320ceos are at Batik.

I’m not sure when the Neos start to come. While Lionair has been aggressively expanding in the past they have purposely slowed down the past couple of years and actually deferred/canceled some orders. While Lionair is no doubt upset with Boeing over the whole fiasco don’t forget that there has been a growing belief that Lionair might have over-ordered on Neos/Maxes as well.
 
Sokes
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Re: Lion Air 'urgently requires' more 737 MAX jets to support growth - co-founder

Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:09 pm

bob75013 wrote:
chrisp390 wrote:
Rumor is the US embassy stepped in and did a lot of talking with Lion Air and the Indonesian government to save the order. If Lion Air had their way the Boeing contract would have been canceled already, at this point Lion Air seeing as they can’t cancel just want to get as much out of it as they can.


and your source is ------- what?


If he had a source, he wouldn't call it rumor.
I would rather be surprised if the rumor was that the US embassy refused to step in.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
mandala499
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Re: Lion Air 'urgently requires' more 737 MAX jets to support growth - co-founder

Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:54 am

LOL!!!!! Oh this news... LOL

This news got me laughing a bit, especially after talking to the Lion Air management on their Airbus vs Boeing position in light of the "spate following the Max tragedies"... and also in light of this news..

Lion is still sitting on the fence on which way to go on their 737Max orders (cancel or continue), and Airbus is literally following them around in meetings in case Lion suddenly says, "OK, am cancelling the Max"... the sticky issue is the financial penalties should they cancel the Max, and whether or not Airbus can guarantee them the delivery slots Lion want should they cancel the Max (in addition to the A320 delivery schedules).

Lion Air's position in that "they desperately need more Max" is partially correct. The expansion plans for this year calls for the deliveries of Maxes for it. That has been cut thanks to the grounding, this halts Lion Air's plans in Thailand and Malaysia (and Indonesia, mainly fleet replacements)
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RobK
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Re: Lion Air 'urgently requires' more 737 MAX jets to support growth - co-founder

Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:27 am

Judgjng from the future production schedule, it's Malindo Air that they need them for. There's a significant number of them coming. However, it's Lion Group, so there's a high chance they change their mind again at the last hour and they end up with Lion Air or Thai Lion instead. I think some relative of U-Turn Al-Baker runs Lion Group as they both seem to change their mind with the same regularity.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Lion Air 'urgently requires' more 737 MAX jets to support growth - co-founder

Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:02 pm

mandala499 wrote:
.
the sticky issue is the financial penalties should they cancel the Max, and whether or not Airbus can guarantee them the delivery slots Lion want should they cancel the Max (in addition to the A320 delivery schedules).

Airbus is pushing NEO deliveries from 2019 into 2020 as they cannot meet the ramp rate. At this time, CFM (whom LionAir ordered) is running late, but the whole A320 production is held. I'm not aware of Pratt failing to meet delivery schedule. So the answer is Airbus alone cannot meet LionAir's needs.

If LionAir cancels, Boeing won't play nice. Negotiations must be tense.

I do not see at LionAir's present growth rate, pre-MAX grounding, as supporting an increase in orders. I do see them needing the MAX to fly again.

Lightsaber
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WIederling
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Re: Lion Air 'urgently requires' more 737 MAX jets to support growth - co-founder

Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:06 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Airbus is pushing NEO deliveries from 2019 into 2020 as they cannot meet the ramp rate. At this time, CFM (whom LionAir ordered) is running late, but the whole A320 production is held. I'm not aware of Pratt failing to meet delivery schedule. So the answer is Airbus alone cannot meet LionAir's needs.


to end of July they are at just short of 50/month ( 346 over 7 month.)
Last year they did 52/a over the full year ( 626 over 12 month.)

Any numbers around what was was planned for this year and the next ones
( beyond the intention to go to 63 in 2021.)

media impact of lacking deliveries appears small at the moment.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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PacoMartin
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Re: Lion Air 'urgently requires' more 737 MAX jets to support growth - co-founder

Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:26 am

Lion Air is being pushed by the Indonesian government to cancel Airbus orders over their dispute with the EU over Palm Oil. So they are stuck in a difficult place or they will be forced out of business.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Lion Air 'urgently requires' more 737 MAX jets to support growth - co-founder

Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:23 am

chiad wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
Etheereal wrote:
Isnt the max pretty much grounded worldwide? Why would they need the MAX when A can do it better? :stirthepot: :stirthepot:


Sounds like Lion would prefer the grounding to end sooner rather than later.

So if Lion goes to A, they can expect to receive their new planes by, what, about 2029 -- right??


But Lion Air already has a massive A320NEO order (from 2013) for up to 234 frames.
https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... craft.html

I just wonder when the delivery starts.


Much of that order has been rumored to be converted to the A321LR. Lion Air Group orders from both because they need the planes. I do wonder if they could extend the leases on any older B739(ER) frames that they sold and leased back.
 
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Re: Lion Air 'urgently requires' more 737 MAX jets to support growth - co-founder

Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:55 am

lightsaber wrote:
At this time, CFM (whom LionAir ordered) is running late, but the whole A320 production is held. I'm not aware of Pratt failing to meet delivery schedule. So the answer is Airbus alone cannot meet LionAir's needs.


With the MAX delivery suspended and the building is put down to 40 a month, CFM International should have room to build more LEAP-1A for the NEO, shouldn't they?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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TheDutchman92
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Re: Lion Air 'urgently requires' more 737 MAX jets to support growth - co-founder

Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:51 pm

Maybe they should concentrate on not wrecking the airframes they currently have.
 
marcelh
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Re: Lion Air 'urgently requires' more 737 MAX jets to support growth - co-founder

Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:18 pm

TheDutchman92 wrote:
Maybe they should concentrate on not wrecking the airframes they currently have.

How many did they after the 737MAX crash?
 
Sooner787
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Re: Lion Air 'urgently requires' more 737 MAX jets to support growth - co-founder

Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:13 pm

How many Jet Airways B738NG's are available for lease right now?

They can't all be spoken for already?
 
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afterburner
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Re: Lion Air 'urgently requires' more 737 MAX jets to support growth - co-founder

Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:00 pm

PacoMartin wrote:
Lion Air is being pushed by the Indonesian government to cancel Airbus orders over their dispute with the EU over Palm Oil. So they are stuck in a difficult place or they will be forced out of business.

You should read this post from mandala499 from another thread: https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1429771&p=21619713#p21619713
 
bob75013
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Re: Lion Air 'urgently requires' more 737 MAX jets to support growth - co-founder

Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:40 pm

Dutchy wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
At this time, CFM (whom LionAir ordered) is running late, but the whole A320 production is held. I'm not aware of Pratt failing to meet delivery schedule. So the answer is Airbus alone cannot meet LionAir's needs.


With the MAX delivery suspended and the building is put down to 40 a month, CFM International should have room to build more LEAP-1A for the NEO, shouldn't they?


Actually, Boeing is building 42 MAXs/month right now -- going to 47/month in October, 52/month in February, and 57/month in summer 2020
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Lion Air 'urgently requires' more 737 MAX jets to support growth - co-founder

Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:43 pm

Dutchy wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
At this time, CFM (whom LionAir ordered) is running late, but the whole A320 production is held. I'm not aware of Pratt failing to meet delivery schedule. So the answer is Airbus alone cannot meet LionAir's needs.


With the MAX delivery suspended and the building is put down to 40 a month, CFM International should have room to build more LEAP-1A for the NEO, shouldn't they?


It’s not that simple, they are 2 very different engines.
 
Checklist787
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Re: Lion Air 'urgently requires' more 737 MAX jets to support growth - co-founder

Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:07 pm

Etheereal wrote:
Isnt the max pretty much grounded worldwide? Why would they need the MAX when A can do it better? :stirthepot: :stirthepot:


The proof that no for Airbus :bigthumbsup:

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