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Zoedyn
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Tokyo Narita ponders future after Delta's farewell

Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:49 am

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2019/ ... VTegsq-uhB

This is surely an interesting issue even though the Japan Times article doesn't offer much substantial info on how Tokyo's international gateway airport NRT would address the challenge as illustrated by Delta’s decision to switch all NRT flights to HND, the closer to town airport in Tokyo.

Will NRT be further marginalized owing to the ever expanding role in international connectivity its rival airport HND looks set to take upon with the latter's obvious location edge and planned infrastructure expansions?

Or NRT must ramp up its game in big ways to stay relevant in heated competition for major air hub status in East Asia with not only HND at its nose, but also with neighboring rivals like ICN, PVG, PEK and upcoming PKX?

We'll see :coffee:
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Tokyo Narita ponders future after Delta's farewell

Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:58 am

NRT is as busy as ever. The curfew time is being reduced, a new runway is on its way, and eventually new terminal as well.

The few slots DL is vacating will be taken over by others quickly as there is a waiting list.

Keep in mind NRT will still remain the primary international gateway for both ANA and JAL.
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TWA772LR
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Re: Tokyo Narita ponders future after Delta's farewell

Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:59 am

Better rail connection to Tokyo would make it more attractive. When ever I arrive in NRT I take the $8 bus to Tokyo Station, instead of getting lost hopping 3 trains for an hour and a half for $15 or the Narita Express for $40.

NRT could be very attractive for the entire northern Kanto region is they put in a Shinkansen line.
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mercure1
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Re: Tokyo Narita ponders future after Delta's farewell

Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:03 am

NRT is about the sole Tokyo growth option for most airlines. Getting into HND is a limited opportunity.

NRT will continue to grow (remember it has been setting annual records one year after another) and the projects for additional runway and curfew time adjustment will provide even more opportunity for growth.

And yes as mention, NRT will serve as the principal international base for JL + NH for years to come.
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UPlog
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Re: Tokyo Narita ponders future after Delta's farewell

Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:07 am

I don't think many appreciate how busy NRT is - 42mil in 2018. Even with a few additional slots at HND, this traffic will not disappear. What does move to HND will indeed be backfilled in a short time.

NRT is also Japans primary cargo airport. Freighters are not really allowed at HND due scarcity of slots. Even US cargo airlines like UPS have been thwarted to grow at NRT. Hopefully, the curfew change and 3rd runway will allow additional cargo opportunities also.
 
ITSTours
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Re: Tokyo Narita ponders future after Delta's farewell

Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:11 am

TWA772LR wrote:
Better rail connection to Tokyo would make it more attractive. When ever I arrive in NRT I take the $8 bus to Tokyo Station, instead of getting lost hopping 3 trains for an hour and a half for $15 or the Narita Express for $40.

NRT could be very attractive for the entire northern Kanto region is they put in a Shinkansen line.


Narita Shinkansen was once actually planned but later cancelled (after a fiasco). It will never be built; Keisei Skyliner took some of the planned route for the Narita Shinkansen.

So Narita to Tokyo train access will never be better than now. Either Skyliner with transfer at Ueno/Nippori or Narita Express.

Meanwhile there will be Haneda Airport Access line that will connect Haneda and Tokyo station directly....
 
TWA85
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Re: Tokyo Narita ponders future after Delta's farewell

Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:35 am

DL's withdrawal from NRT might actually help in some cases. Their slots could be reallocated to LCCs or other carriers wishing to expand at NRT because they can't expand at HND. As HND continues to open up to international traffic, NRT role will likely change to a similar role as LGW. NRT will become the LCC airport in Tokyo, while HND will continue to be the full-service airport.
 
theasianguy
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Re: Tokyo Narita ponders future after Delta's farewell

Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:50 am

I hope ANA gets Delta's gates in the North Wing of Terminal 1 after they leave. During the afternoon hours between 3-6, Gates 31-58 are completely packed, and ANA ends up having use bus gates for around 4-5 flights per day.
 
spacecadet
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Re: Tokyo Narita ponders future after Delta's farewell

Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:58 am

That's not a very substantive article, and it relies on a quote from an unspecified "municipal official" for its lede.

I think we all know that Narita is in transition. But this article is about four paragraphs of fluff.
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cedarjet
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Re: Tokyo Narita ponders future after Delta's farewell

Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:08 am

I like Narita, the Shibuya hotel I stay at has nonstop bus service and I find the long drive very relaxing!
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chunhimlai
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Re: Tokyo Narita ponders future after Delta's farewell

Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:59 am

How about rebuilt T1 North Wing and expansion T2 after Delta leave NRT?
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raylee67
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Re: Tokyo Narita ponders future after Delta's farewell

Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:27 pm

I don't think there is anything NRT needs to worry about? HND may get the more prestigious destinations, but NRT will get Tokyo direct connections to cities that airlines will not waste their HND slots for (e.g. SAN, SJC, DUS, etc.). It will just keep opening more destinations for Tokyo. And more frequency to Asian cities will focus in NRT too, not HND. Ultimately, it will be able to challenge ICN as a connection hub to these secondary cities for Asian travelers.
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flyer56
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Re: Tokyo Narita ponders future after Delta's farewell

Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:50 pm

ITSTours wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
Better rail connection to Tokyo would make it more attractive. When ever I arrive in NRT I take the $8 bus to Tokyo Station, instead of getting lost hopping 3 trains for an hour and a half for $15 or the Narita Express for $40.

NRT could be very attractive for the entire northern Kanto region is they put in a Shinkansen line.


Narita Shinkansen was once actually planned but later cancelled (after a fiasco). It will never be built; Keisei Skyliner took some of the planned route for the Narita Shinkansen.

So Narita to Tokyo train access will never be better than now. Either Skyliner with transfer at Ueno/Nippori or Narita Express.

Meanwhile there will be Haneda Airport Access line that will connect Haneda and Tokyo station directly....


JR originally planned a shinkansen line from Tokyo Station to Narita Airport. In fact, the platforms for the line were built and are now used as the terminus for the Keiyo Line. The entire Narita project went well over budget so the shinkansen line was shelved and Narita Express was developed instead using a lot of existing track.

With all due respect to DL, I kind of think Narita will do just fine without them. The slots and gates will be taken by other airlines pretty quickly. I think it will be an interesting exercise one year from now to see how DL is doing at HND and I would not be surprised to see DL paring back their service there. They invest where they do well and devest where they cannot. We shall see in the coming year.
 
E90SLAM
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Re: Tokyo Narita ponders future after Delta's farewell

Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:18 pm

Once DL leaves NRT, would this be the same case like UA left JFK and now wants to return?
 
FromCDGtoSYD
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Re: Tokyo Narita ponders future after Delta's farewell

Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:27 pm

What will happen to the skyclub, I presume it will close
 
TC957
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Re: Tokyo Narita ponders future after Delta's farewell

Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:36 pm

It's going to feel mighty strange spotting there in future without tons of DL widebodies and 757's pouring in every afternoon. I would expect cargo and regional LCC's to take up most of the freed slots. When the last DL 744 went, they held a nice little " thank you 747 "
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Tokyo Narita ponders future after Delta's farewell

Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:39 pm

E90SLAM wrote:
Once DL leaves NRT, would this be the same case like UA left JFK and now wants to return?


Develop that thought: Why do you think DL would want to return? TYO O&D passengers reasonably prefer Haneda. DL isn't going to have a big Japanese connecting partner at NRT -- none are available!

DL makes up for, what, seven departures a day at an airport that sees more than 100K ops annually? This is rounding error. This is an example of the press following the tiresome U.S. cable TV practice of trying to create drama from nothing.
 
TC957
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Re: Tokyo Narita ponders future after Delta's farewell

Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:39 pm

Sorry - sent last post too quick before I finished - a little thank you 747-400 for 28 years service at NRT up on the top floor in T1 so knowing Japan I'm sure there will be commemorative exhibition to thank DL for their time there.
 
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Momo1435
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Re: Tokyo Narita ponders future after Delta's farewell

Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:43 pm

ITSTours wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
Better rail connection to Tokyo would make it more attractive. When ever I arrive in NRT I take the $8 bus to Tokyo Station, instead of getting lost hopping 3 trains for an hour and a half for $15 or the Narita Express for $40.

NRT could be very attractive for the entire northern Kanto region is they put in a Shinkansen line.


Narita Shinkansen was once actually planned but later cancelled (after a fiasco). It will never be built; Keisei Skyliner took some of the planned route for the Narita Shinkansen.

So Narita to Tokyo train access will never be better than now. Either Skyliner with transfer at Ueno/Nippori or Narita Express.

Meanwhile there will be Haneda Airport Access line that will connect Haneda and Tokyo station directly....

The train access could improve with the proposed new trough line connecting the Keisei Line to the Keikyu Line via Tokyo Station. Which would make it possible for the Skyliner to run from Narita to Haneda with better access to more subcenters in Tokyo.

Too bad that project is as dead as for example the Tsukuba Line extension. The new Haneda access lines by JR will most likely be the only airport access improvements in the near future.

One thing that could still be done is increasing the station capacity at Narita. Double tracking of both the JR an Keisei lines could increase the frequency of all trains which would mean less waiting time at the station.
 
flyfresno
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Re: Tokyo Narita ponders future after Delta's farewell

Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:17 pm

I would even say go so far as to say you might see Delta return to NRT *way* down the road, the same way they are returning to Gatwick, but only if they have some sort of partner there. Anything can happen in 10 or 15 years.
 
Scarebus34
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Re: Tokyo Narita ponders future after Delta's farewell

Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:37 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
Better rail connection to Tokyo would make it more attractive. When ever I arrive in NRT I take the $8 bus to Tokyo Station, instead of getting lost hopping 3 trains for an hour and a half for $15 or the Narita Express for $40.

NRT could be very attractive for the entire northern Kanto region is they put in a Shinkansen line.

Narita Express is only 28.00
Last edited by Scarebus34 on Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Tokyo Narita ponders future after Delta's farewell

Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:40 pm

I personally don't see how 7 flights a day mean that much anyway, especially when there are still JL and NH around as much larger home carriers at NRT.

Ultimately, NRT is definitely transitioning from an airport that relied mainly on being THE pan-Asia hub to a more mixed traffic (i.e. increasing LCC presence along with being the entry point for secondary destinations worldwide), and is still extremely busy. NRT ain't turning into Mirabel, but rather, it's turning into a LGW.
 
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Momo1435
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Re: Tokyo Narita ponders future after Delta's farewell

Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:43 pm

Scarebus34 wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
Better rail connection to Tokyo would make it more attractive. When ever I arrive in NRT I take the $8 bus to Tokyo Station, instead of getting lost hopping 3 trains for an hour and a half for $15 or the Narita Express for $40.

NRT could be very attractive for the entire northern Kanto region is they put in a Shinkansen line.

Narita Express is only 28.00


A roundtrip is 4000 yen, $ 40.

The Skyliner is actually the fastest and is cheaper then the NEX (if you don't have a Railpas) it's only 2.000 yen if you purchase it online, with a 1 day metro pass it's the same price as the NEX.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Tokyo Narita ponders future after Delta's farewell

Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:44 pm

Momo1435 wrote:
A roundtrip is 4000 yen, $ 40.

The Skyliner is actually the fastest and is cheaper then the NEX (if you don't have a Railpas) it's only 2.000 yen if you purchase it online, with a 1 day metro pass it's the same price as the NEX.


4000 Yen is more like USD38, so about $19 one way. That ticket is limited to foreign visitors, though.

https://www.jreast.co.jp/e/pass/nex_round.html

The problem with Skyliner is the fact that unless you're staying in Ueno area, you'll have to change train. N'EX's only advantage is the fact that it's a one-seat ride to places like Tokyo Stn. area, Shinjuku/Shibuya/Ikebukuro, or even Yokohama anyway, without having to deal with Tokyo traffic.

Momo1435 wrote:
One thing that could still be done is increasing the station capacity at Narita. Double tracking of both the JR an Keisei lines could increase the frequency of all trains which would mean less waiting time at the station.


I believe there are still plenty of headways to increase frequency as-is anyway (The spur line into NRT is far from running at full capacity). Keisei is also going to increase Skyliner to 20 mins frequency the entire day (right now during the middle of the day it's 40 mins frequency).

http://www.keisei.co.jp/keisei/ir/libra ... 4-plan.pdf (Japanese only, see p.21/Slide 20).
 
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Momo1435
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Re: Tokyo Narita ponders future after Delta's farewell

Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:37 pm

It of course depends on where you have to be in Tokyo. Keisei's Access Express also brings you to other spots in Tokyo at the same speed as the NEX and for a bit less money. It have used it most of the times for the last couple of years. But that's also because I actually love Tokyo's trains and traveling together with the locals instead of just with the tourist.

And it's on these trains, plus the other regular express and local trains where you see how the capacity of the current stations are not so much congested but have operational issues. These trains will often have to wait some before they can enter the tunnel at Narita for the Skyliner to pass. Which will happen more when the Skyliner will run more often. Of course this is also done to increase the travel time to make people to take the more expensive Skyliner.

Trying to make a link with thread topic, with the focus of Narita changing from business travelers to the leisure market speed becomes less important. Price and easy access to more places are indeed becoming more important. This does favor the NEX and the buses as they have wider range of direct destinations. That might also be the reason why speeding up the travel times between Narita to Haneda is not too important, even though a good direct connection would be good travelers with connecting flights to/from smaller Japanese cities at the other airport. But as Narita will get more domestic LCC routes it will also get more options for connections without having to go to Haneda.

Last thought, If JR Central ever decides to an extension to the north on the new Chuo Maglev a connection to or via Chiba and Narita would not be a bad option. That could improve it's connections not just with Tokyo but also with northern Honshu. But this is not on the table right now to be clear.

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