iberiadc852
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Re: Ural Airlines A321 VQ-BOZ 15.08.2019 Moscow emergency landing

Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:26 am

jupiter2 wrote:
Chrisba320 wrote:
Well done to the pilots for putting this bird down safely with no casualties on board. I’m sure the A321’s advanced systems also played a major part in this not ending in disaster.


Is that what lucks called now ?


Yes. While "Flying a 4-houler in a short flight" stands now for Miracle.
variety is the spice of life; that's what made the "old times" so good
 
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Thunderboltdrgn
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Re: Ural Airlines A321 VQ-BOZ 15 august 2019 Moscow emergency landing

Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:28 am

aircatalonia wrote:
This is indeed the Russian version of the Hudson miracle.


And/or Russian version of Gottöra (Scandinavian Airlines Flight 751).
Like a thunderbolt of lightning the Dragon roars across the sky. Il Drago Ruggente
 
planecane
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Re: Ural Airlines A321 VQ-BOZ 15.08.2019 Moscow emergency landing

Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:38 am

marcelh wrote:
OccupiedLav wrote:
Chrisba320 wrote:
Well done to the pilots for putting this bird down safely with no casualties on board. I’m sure the A321’s advanced systems also played a major part in this not ending in disaster.


At this point the aircraft was pretty much a glider, so I doubt the safe outcome was a result of advanced systems. This was good piloting/luck.

Those systems prevent the pilots to stall the plane when pulling on the stick too much.
And a nice big corn field also helped a lot!

The 767 with less advanced systems has been landed safely with dual engine failure. This (and Sully) is a result of pilot skill not being able to hold the stick back and avoid stalling. It didn't hurt but it wouldn't have helped if not for quick and correct actions by the pilot flying.
 
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Pudelhund
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Re: Ural Airlines A321 VQ-BOZ 15 august 2019 Moscow emergency landing

Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:43 am

Thunderboltdrgn wrote:
aircatalonia wrote:
This is indeed the Russian version of the Hudson miracle.


And/or Russian version of Gottöra (Scandinavian Airlines Flight 751).


And/or Russian version of the Neva River Ditching. Wait.
 
tu204
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Re: Ural Airlines A321 VQ-BOZ 15 august 2019 Moscow emergency landing

Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:44 am

Efhkspotter wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Would it have been better had they lowered the gear? :stirthepot:


What would have been better? Everyone is alive.


Less damage to the aircraft? Remember the COPA 733 that landed (and then took off from) a levy in New Orleans?
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
AIRT0M
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Re: Ural Airlines A321 VQ-BOZ 15 august 2019 Moscow emergency landing

Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:49 am

Amazing. Stories like this remind me, what an awesome job cockpit and cabin crews do every day.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Ural Airlines A321 VQ-BOZ 15 august 2019 Moscow emergency landing

Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:49 am

No doubt this was a great show of airmanship, luck and location. It does raise issues as with other airports of bird life near them that can cause interference with flight or crashes. Many airports are adjacent to water or marshes that support bird life, often protected areas so cannot control the population and if try to do so in many countries end up with protests against killing birds. I wonder if there any way or one could be developed to be able to detect bird movements in enough time so flights outbound or inbound can be suspended or would there be too many false alarms ?
 
planecane
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Re: Ural Airlines A321 VQ-BOZ 15 august 2019 Moscow emergency landing

Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:54 am

ltbewr wrote:
No doubt this was a great show of airmanship, luck and location. It does raise issues as with other airports of bird life near them that can cause interference with flight or crashes. Many airports are adjacent to water or marshes that support bird life, often protected areas so cannot control the population and if try to do so in many countries end up with protests against killing birds. I wonder if there any way or one could be developed to be able to detect bird movements in enough time so flights outbound or inbound can be suspended or would there be too many false alarms ?

I can't remember the details but Kennedy Space Center and Cape Canaveral Air Force Station (which are two separate facilities) have procedures to keep birds away from the launch pads and they are located between a wildlife sanctuary and the ocean.
 
tu204
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Re: Ural Airlines A321 VQ-BOZ 15 august 2019 Moscow emergency landing

Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:56 am

zeke wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Now let's debate this:

They landed with gear up.

Would it have been better had they lowered the gear? :stirthepot:


Did they land gear up ?

Hard to tell from the drone footage. The QRH procedure would be to have them down.

I didn't hear the normal chimes on either the takeoff or landing videos to indicate gear retraction.

From the videos it looks like the bird strikes were either just before or after rotation.


I believe the gear was up. If you look at all the crash site photos, including ones from a drone, I see no tracks from the gear and no pieces of the landing gear in the field (if it tore off) or underneath the plane (if it collapsed).
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
marcelh
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Re: Ural Airlines A321 VQ-BOZ 15.08.2019 Moscow emergency landing

Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:12 am

planecane wrote:
marcelh wrote:
OccupiedLav wrote:

At this point the aircraft was pretty much a glider, so I doubt the safe outcome was a result of advanced systems. This was good piloting/luck.

Those systems prevent the pilots to stall the plane when pulling on the stick too much.
And a nice big corn field also helped a lot!

The 767 with less advanced systems has been landed safely with dual engine failure. This (and Sully) is a result of pilot skill not being able to hold the stick back and avoid stalling. It didn't hurt but it wouldn't have helped if not for quick and correct actions by the pilot flying.

If a plane has systems to prevent stalling, it reduces the workload and enables the pilots to make the best decisions. And those pilots do need the experience of the captain of the Gimli Glider to walk away from the landing site.
 
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zeke
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Re: Ural Airlines A321 VQ-BOZ 15 august 2019 Moscow emergency landing

Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:17 am

tu204 wrote:
I believe the gear was up. If you look at all the crash site photos, including ones from a drone, I see no tracks from the gear and no pieces of the landing gear in the field (if it tore off) or underneath the plane (if it collapsed).


I dont know, I saw two well spaced tracks on the aircraft trajectory on both sides of the ditch.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
DYSK
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Re: Ural Airlines A321 VQ-BOZ 15 august 2019 Moscow emergency landing

Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:18 am

tu204 wrote:
zeke wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Now let's debate this:

They landed with gear up.

Would it have been better had they lowered the gear? :stirthepot:


Did they land gear up ?

Hard to tell from the drone footage. The QRH procedure would be to have them down.

I didn't hear the normal chimes on either the takeoff or landing videos to indicate gear retraction.

From the videos it looks like the bird strikes were either just before or after rotation.


I believe the gear was up. If you look at all the crash site photos, including ones from a drone, I see no tracks from the gear and no pieces of the landing gear in the field (if it tore off) or underneath the plane (if it collapsed).


According to avherald the plane landed with gear up.
 
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Ty134A
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Re: Ural Airlines A321 VQ-BOZ 15 august 2019 Moscow emergency landing

Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:30 am

how come everybody in this forum is so easy about the destroyed corn? i mean, in the end we're takling about delicious russian corn!?!?!

best aviation news this year so far!!!
flown on: TU3,TU5,T20,IL8,IL6,ILW,IL9,I14,YK4,YK2,AN2,AN4,A26,A28,A38,A40,A81,SU9,L4T,L11,D1C,M11,M80,M87,
AB4,AB6,318,313,342,343,345,346,712,703,722,732,735,741,742,743,74L,744,752,753,763,772,77W,J31,F50,F70,100,ATP,
142,143,AR8,AR1,SF3,S20,D38,MIH...
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Ural Airlines A321 VQ-BOZ 15 august 2019 Moscow emergency landing

Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:31 am

aircatalonia wrote:
This is indeed the Russian version of the Hudson miracle.

Hudson miracle, Soviet-style, actually happened in 1963, with Tu-124 ditching in Neva River in St.Pete:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1963_Aero ... r_ditching
AN4 A40 L4T TU3 TU5 IL6 ILW I93 F50 F70 100 146 ARJ AT7 DH4 L10 CRJ ERJ E90 E95 DC-9 MD-8X YK4 YK2 SF3 S20 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 74M 757 767 777
Ceterum autem censeo, Moscovia esse delendam
 
trijetsonly
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Re: Ural Airlines A321 VQ-BOZ 15 august 2019 Moscow emergency landing

Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:57 am

Phosphorus wrote:
aircatalonia wrote:
This is indeed the Russian version of the Hudson miracle.

Hudson miracle, Soviet-style, actually happened in 1963, with Tu-124 ditching in Neva River in St.Pete:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1963_Aero ... r_ditching


I wouldn't call it a miracle when it's caused by bad judgement and situational awareness by the crew. Fuel starvation while holding shouldn't be much of a surprise but I wasn't there. Maybe the gauges were faulty.

Back on topic:
I wonder how much ability to control the A321 was left.
One of the basic rules I remember from flight school was that (emergency) off-field landings should always be performed along the grooves and sowing direction. That way they would have avoided the ditch.
Maybe they were too low and not enough time was left to realign.
:?:
Happy Landings
 
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Erebus
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Re: Ural Airlines A321 VQ-BOZ 15 august 2019 Moscow emergency landing

Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:11 pm

readytotaxi wrote:
hic787 wrote:
The corn really softened the landing!

Yep, that's why they call it sweet.


Engines were out but still hot enough to leave a trail of pop corn I bet! :biggrin:
 
Blotto
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Re: Ural Airlines A321 VQ-BOZ 15 august 2019 Moscow emergency landing

Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:12 pm

Awesome job by the crew
Awesome capabilities of the aircraft
Bad job by the airport hunting team ;)
 
HIA350
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Re: Ural Airlines A321 VQ-BOZ 15 august 2019 Moscow emergency landing

Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:22 pm

jupiter2 wrote:
But is it a write off ?

Sorry, couldn't resist.



nope, not in Russia
 
trnswrld
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Re: Ural Airlines A321 VQ-BOZ 15 august 2019 Moscow emergency landing

Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:34 pm

WOW that’s amazing! The fact there was no fire and that they had a perfectly clear place to land saved all those lives!! Great job to the crew!!
 
schech
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Re: Ural Airlines A321 VQ-BOZ 15 august 2019 Moscow emergency landing

Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:36 pm

HIA350 wrote:
jupiter2 wrote:
But is it a write off ?

Sorry, couldn't resist.



nope, not in Russia

yes, it is a write off
Last edited by schech on Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
TaromA380
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Re: Ural Airlines A321 VQ-BOZ 15 august 2019 Moscow emergency landing

Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:37 pm

Nobody commented yet that we have here the exact definition of a good landing :duck:
 
Armadillo1
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Re: Ural Airlines A321 VQ-BOZ 15 august 2019 Moscow emergency landing

Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:47 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... dson-sully

discussed at russian forum now - data about bird strikes around new york
 
LAXLHR
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Re: Ural Airlines A321 VQ-BOZ 15 august 2019 Moscow emergency landing

Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:10 pm

lamiska wrote:
Nice gesture by passengers applauding and thanking pilots and crew members for saving them shortly after evacuation:

https://vk.com/video-112510789_45625460 ... a04c19ec3d

Also per passenger comments, there were 1 or 2 people trying to save the cabin bags, but quickly realized it is not worth it.


Aww that one FA wants to cry. Can't say I can blame her.

We had a crash landing when I was 6. I remember running from the plane, it stays with you.


Glad it ended well, and hope those that were injured make a quick and speedy recovery.
BA IB ET JM EA GK PA VS AA SN HP CO W7 WN NW DL UA AC US LH LX OS JL QF QR WY MH CX U2 EK 9W UK TP VY VN LO OK OZ UL SQ LA

707 727 L10 732-NG 741 742 743 744 752 753 762 763 772 773 787 DC8 DC9 DC10 M80 M11 100 AB3 310 318 319 320 321 332 333 342 343 380
 
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zeke
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Re: Ural Airlines A321 VQ-BOZ 15 august 2019 Moscow emergency landing

Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:13 pm

DYSK wrote:
According to avherald the plane landed with gear up.


Does not mean it is correct, been many times they have corrected things are facts develop.

When I watched the video I saw the birds with the runway still in view, gear would still be down.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Armadillo1
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Re: Ural Airlines A321 VQ-BOZ 15 august 2019 Moscow emergency landing

Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:14 pm

gears was up, it was said many times.
https://aviaforum.ru/threads/avarijnaya ... st-2466589
here you can see pics, including cockpit.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Ural Airlines A321 VQ-BOZ 15 august 2019 Moscow emergency landing

Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:14 pm

AIRT0M wrote:
Amazing. Stories like this remind me, what an awesome job cockpit and cabin crews do every day.


Luckily they don't do this every day :lol:

The old saying: a good landing is a landing where you can walk away from, a great landing is a landing where you can use the aircraft again. This was a good landing 8-)
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
estorilm
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Re: Ural Airlines A321 VQ-BOZ 15.08.2019 Moscow emergency landing

Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:18 pm

OccupiedLav wrote:
Chrisba320 wrote:
Well done to the pilots for putting this bird down safely with no casualties on board. I’m sure the A321’s advanced systems also played a major part in this not ending in disaster.


At this point the aircraft was pretty much a glider, so I doubt the safe outcome was a result of advanced systems. This was good piloting/luck.

True however, check out the vapes coming off the leading edge of the wing just prior to impact - I wouldn't be surprised if the pilot was full-aft on the sidestick at that point and the plane simply achieved peak AoA with alpha prot without stalling.


tu204 wrote:
Efhkspotter wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Would it have been better had they lowered the gear? :stirthepot:


What would have been better? Everyone is alive.


Less damage to the aircraft? Remember the COPA 733 that landed (and then took off from) a levy in New Orleans?

True but that was a completely controlled descent with a "planned" target for a landing location.

I think everything was out of their hands with this one. I too asked myself "why gear up?" however given the incredibly close proximity to the end of the runway, it's clear that a) a gravity drop of the gear might not have even been possible in that timeframe, and b) a partial or full drop of the landing gear that close to the ground would have likely stalled or put the plane into the ground in a much worse fashion than we see here. I absolutely agree with the pilots decision with those factors in mind here.
 
tu204
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Re: Ural Airlines A321 VQ-BOZ 15 august 2019 Moscow emergency landing

Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:24 pm

LAXLHR wrote:
lamiska wrote:
Nice gesture by passengers applauding and thanking pilots and crew members for saving them shortly after evacuation:

https://vk.com/video-112510789_45625460 ... a04c19ec3d

Also per passenger comments, there were 1 or 2 people trying to save the cabin bags, but quickly realized it is not worth it.


Aww that one FA wants to cry. Can't say I can blame her.

We had a crash landing when I was 6. I remember running from the plane, it stays with you.



Heck knows why she is about to break into tears: having just crashed, having survived it or the crowd of now her former passengers thanking her and the crew for saving their lives and and applauding. (Thats what is said in the video "Thanks to the pilots and you gals for saving our lives.")
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
Armadillo1
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Re: Ural Airlines A321 VQ-BOZ 15 august 2019 Moscow emergency landing

Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:29 pm

Directly seats 30f and 30e.
take-off was vibration throughout the hull, but did not gain altitude. Next, pops began with an ejection of flame on the right side of the engine, illuminated the entire cabin. To say that I crap - to say nothing. They began to descend. The staff did not announce anything.
The very aspiration was when were flying right over the corn and you already understand that now there will be a touch. The touch was reasonably moderate. Portholes threw by soil. There were two blows to the ground. When there were touches, I thought to myself: just don’t catch fire.
When we stopped, I didn’t have time to blink, as all the exits were already open, the stewardesses deployed inflatable ramps and ordered to exit further from the plane. We quickly went down and ran across the field. Then, calmed down and went to the sound of voices and gps . We were oriented where to go towards the road. While we were walking, fire brigades were coming towards us. When we reached the road there were already resuscitation and ambulance crew. An hour waited for the evacuation buses. Now we are at the Zhukovsky airport. We will be taken to the hotel and in the evening at 20 with something we will fly out again. I am writing in haste, my legs are still tremble
 
tu204
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Re: Ural Airlines A321 VQ-BOZ 15.08.2019 Moscow emergency landing

Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:35 pm

estorilm wrote:
OccupiedLav wrote:
Chrisba320 wrote:
Well done to the pilots for putting this bird down safely with no casualties on board. I’m sure the A321’s advanced systems also played a major part in this not ending in disaster.


At this point the aircraft was pretty much a glider, so I doubt the safe outcome was a result of advanced systems. This was good piloting/luck.

True however, check out the vapes coming off the leading edge of the wing just prior to impact - I wouldn't be surprised if the pilot was full-aft on the sidestick at that point and the plane simply achieved peak AoA with alpha prot without stalling.


tu204 wrote:
Efhkspotter wrote:

What would have been better? Everyone is alive.


Less damage to the aircraft? Remember the COPA 733 that landed (and then took off from) a levy in New Orleans?

True but that was a completely controlled descent with a "planned" target for a landing location.

I think everything was out of their hands with this one. I too asked myself "why gear up?" however given the incredibly close proximity to the end of the runway, it's clear that a) a gravity drop of the gear might not have even been possible in that timeframe, and b) a partial or full drop of the landing gear that close to the ground would have likely stalled or put the plane into the ground in a much worse fashion than we see here. I absolutely agree with the pilots decision with those factors in mind here.


I am eagerly waiting for the Prelim report and will shortly write a buddy that flies with U6 and ask him what mode the plane was in at impact. I am not sure it was still in Normal law with a double engine failure. I am leaning towards it being in Alternate Law or Direct Law.

I totally agree with the crew (and you) that they left the gear up. It led to the aircraft neatly sliding straigh down the field and decelerating quickly (but not too quickly to kill people).
In my opinion had the gear been down, they would have broken one at a time causing it to spin and a wing tank rupture. Thats just my opinion though. The reaon why I posted my question is that I wanted to get some sort of discussion going and hearing different opinions and scenarios.

P.S. I'd also love to hear the crew's decision making process they must have had as to "up or down" in the several seconds they had to make that decision.

Edit: Saw the Investigation Committee video, there are a few cockpit shots and the gear lever is clearly in the "Up" position.
Last edited by tu204 on Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
DYSK
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Re: Ural Airlines A321 VQ-BOZ 15 august 2019 Moscow emergency landing

Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:51 pm

zeke wrote:
DYSK wrote:
According to avherald the plane landed with gear up.


Does not mean it is correct, been many times they have corrected things are facts develop.

When I watched the video I saw the birds with the runway still in view, gear would still be down.


That is true. However it is cited from from Rosaviatsia which is the russian counterpart to the FAA.
Though it has been stated quite early so the info might not be 100% true but that is the info we have to work with at the moment.
 
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acavpics
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Re: Ural Airlines A321 VQ-BOZ 15 august 2019 Moscow emergency landing

Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:05 pm

So if there is a bird strike on a flight, is it pretty much a given that the a/c is going to just plunge from the sky? There is not even a chance of being able to turn around and make an emergency landing on the runway? I'm surprised that the advanced system on the A320 family couldn't allow this flight or US1549 to return/divert to a runway.
 
Eikie
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Re: Ural Airlines A321 VQ-BOZ 15 august 2019 Moscow emergency landing

Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:08 pm

acavpics wrote:
So if there is a bird strike on a flight, is it pretty much a given that the a/c is going to just plunge from the sky? There is not even a chance of being able to turn around and make an emergency landing on the runway? I'm surprised that the advanced system on the A320 family couldn't allow this flight or US1549 to return/divert to a runway.

What advanced system would you expect when both the engines stop turning?

Onboard rockets to give them a last boost?

It all depends on which altitude (and location) where the eniges quit. With enough height, you have a better chance to turn around.
 
asdf
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Re: Ural Airlines A321 VQ-BOZ 15 august 2019 Moscow emergency landing

Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:11 pm

acavpics wrote:
I'm surprised that the advanced system on the A320 family couldn't allow this flight or US1549 to return/divert to a runway.


advanced FBW envelope protection systems allows the crew to control a plane with completely lost power in the same way as one could control it under full thrust

advanced FBW envelope protection systems can not generate thrust
the system for generating thrust is called "engines"
you find them on the left and on the right hand side of the fuselage just below the wings
they are pretty big
you wont miss them
 
Spetsnaz55
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Re: Ural Airlines A321 VQ-BOZ 15 august 2019 Moscow emergency landing

Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:20 pm

asdf wrote:
acavpics wrote:
I'm surprised that the advanced system on the A320 family couldn't allow this flight or US1549 to return/divert to a runway.


advanced FBW envelope protection systems allows the crew to control a plane with completely lost power in the same way as one could control it under full thrust

advanced FBW envelope protection systems can not generate thrust
the system for generating thrust is called "engines"
you find them on the left and on the right hand side of the fuselage just below the wings
they are pretty big
you wont miss them



Haha yes!
 
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SamYeager2016
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Re: Ural Airlines A321 VQ-BOZ 15 august 2019 Moscow emergency landing

Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:40 pm

Great to hear there were no serious casualties. Presumably the airline will need to compensate the farmer for their corn?
 
Spetsnaz55
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Re: Ural Airlines A321 VQ-BOZ 15 august 2019 Moscow emergency landing

Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:54 pm

SamYeager2016 wrote:
Great to hear there were no serious casualties. Presumably the airline will need to compensate the farmer for their corn?


Nahh they will just give him a warning for having a cornfield so close to an airport lol
 
crownvic
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Re: Ural Airlines A321 VQ-BOZ 15 august 2019 Moscow emergency landing

Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:00 pm

It is said that United 292 slid into a similar type of cornfield reducing impact and injuries too..
 
CO953
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Re: Ural Airlines A321 VQ-BOZ 15 august 2019 Moscow emergency landing

Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:04 pm

Wow, anet is off its game today...... NO ONE said this yet??

"THAT'LL BUFF RIGHT OUT!!!!"

:bouncy:

What a great end to a bad situation..... KUDOS to the crew :!:
 
estorilm
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Re: Ural Airlines A321 VQ-BOZ 15.08.2019 Moscow emergency landing

Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:07 pm

tu204 wrote:
estorilm wrote:
OccupiedLav wrote:

At this point the aircraft was pretty much a glider, so I doubt the safe outcome was a result of advanced systems. This was good piloting/luck.

True however, check out the vapes coming off the leading edge of the wing just prior to impact - I wouldn't be surprised if the pilot was full-aft on the sidestick at that point and the plane simply achieved peak AoA with alpha prot without stalling.


tu204 wrote:

Less damage to the aircraft? Remember the COPA 733 that landed (and then took off from) a levy in New Orleans?

True but that was a completely controlled descent with a "planned" target for a landing location.

I think everything was out of their hands with this one. I too asked myself "why gear up?" however given the incredibly close proximity to the end of the runway, it's clear that a) a gravity drop of the gear might not have even been possible in that timeframe, and b) a partial or full drop of the landing gear that close to the ground would have likely stalled or put the plane into the ground in a much worse fashion than we see here. I absolutely agree with the pilots decision with those factors in mind here.


I am eagerly waiting for the Prelim report and will shortly write a buddy that flies with U6 and ask him what mode the plane was in at impact. I am not sure it was still in Normal law with a double engine failure. I am leaning towards it being in Alternate Law or Direct Law.

I totally agree with the crew (and you) that they left the gear up. It led to the aircraft neatly sliding straigh down the field and decelerating quickly (but not too quickly to kill people).
In my opinion had the gear been down, they would have broken one at a time causing it to spin and a wing tank rupture. Thats just my opinion though. The reaon why I posted my question is that I wanted to get some sort of discussion going and hearing different opinions and scenarios.

P.S. I'd also love to hear the crew's decision making process they must have had as to "up or down" in the several seconds they had to make that decision.

Edit: Saw the Investigation Committee video, there are a few cockpit shots and the gear lever is clearly in the "Up" position.

Apparently if both engines are lost, the aircraft will revert to "ALT2" which still retains AoA (assuming that's alpha prot) but loses low-energy prot, which makes sense as that's going to require thrust :lol:

I'm not exactly sure at what point the computers determine the engines are "lost" or "flamed-out" though. If they're still turning and the generators are on, the aircraft might not have even had time to revert to a full lower-level authority like ALT2. However, it would appear that alpha-prot would still be available.

I think in the Hudson incident, they had enough time that the engines were fully shut off (ie generators etc) and that's why the APU was started. FWIW it's interesting to note that this text doesn't say "unless APU power available" - as in, it appears even in the Hudson incident with the APU on, the aircraft would still have been in the same ALT2 control mode law as this incident.
 
olle
Posts: 1181
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Ural Airlines A321 VQ-BOZ 15 august 2019 Moscow emergency landing

Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:09 pm

It seems like the 320 family is forgiving and is a great help for the pilots to do the right thing.

Proffesionals has luck. The best friend of a good goalkeeper is the frame around the goal. Is that luck? Perheps yes but a high skilled will always have more luck then a low skilled.
Last edited by olle on Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 9409
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Ural Airlines A321 VQ-BOZ 15 august 2019 Moscow emergency landing

Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:09 pm

Congrats to the entire crew for being solid professionals. Pilots her her to the ground under control (what control was possible) and the FA (stewardesses :-) ) got the doors open and slides deployed immediately and everyone was evacuated quickly. And no lives were lost.

Can't do better than that!

Seriously, great job by the crew.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
CO953
Posts: 515
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Re: Ural Airlines A321 VQ-BOZ 15 august 2019 Moscow emergency landing

Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:11 pm

crownvic wrote:
It is said that United 292 slid into a similar type of cornfield reducing impact and injuries too..


If you're referring to United 232 in Sioux City, the cornfield at the end really didn't do much. The DC-10 was already cartwheeling and broke to bits. In my opinion the only help the cornfield gave was to cushion the landing just a bit for passengers ejected from the plane during the breakup.
 
estorilm
Posts: 720
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:07 am

Re: Ural Airlines A321 VQ-BOZ 15 august 2019 Moscow emergency landing

Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:14 pm

acavpics wrote:
So if there is a bird strike on a flight, is it pretty much a given that the a/c is going to just plunge from the sky? There is not even a chance of being able to turn around and make an emergency landing on the runway? I'm surprised that the advanced system on the A320 family couldn't allow this flight or US1549 to return/divert to a runway.

With a single engine working perfectly, that plane still requires a firewalled 33,000lbs of thrust to climb away from the airport. With both lost or mostly lost, full of fuel, pax and bags, the thing is a giant brick with wings - no chance to convert altitude to airspeed, you're screwed. Given where this thing ended up relative to the runway, I wouldn't be surprised if the plane only reached a few hundred feet alt before coming down. :(
 
crownvic
Posts: 2471
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 10:16 pm

Re: Ural Airlines A321 VQ-BOZ 15 august 2019 Moscow emergency landing

Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:16 pm

CO953 wrote:
crownvic wrote:
It is said that United 292 slid into a similar type of cornfield reducing impact and injuries too..


If you're referring to United 232 in Sioux City, the cornfield at the end really didn't do much. The DC-10 was already cartwheeling and broke to bits. In my opinion the only help the cornfield gave was to cushion the landing just a bit for passengers ejected from the plane during the breakup.


Yes typo I was referring to 232...

I wonder what type of G force the passengers experienced stopping in such a short distance too..
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 3730
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Ural Airlines A321 VQ-BOZ 15 august 2019 Moscow emergency landing

Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:21 pm

estorilm wrote:
acavpics wrote:
So if there is a bird strike on a flight, is it pretty much a given that the a/c is going to just plunge from the sky? There is not even a chance of being able to turn around and make an emergency landing on the runway? I'm surprised that the advanced system on the A320 family couldn't allow this flight or US1549 to return/divert to a runway.

With a single engine working perfectly, that plane still requires a firewalled 33,000lbs of thrust to climb away from the airport. With both lost or mostly lost, full of fuel, pax and bags, the thing is a giant brick with wings - no chance to convert altitude to airspeed, you're screwed. Given where this thing ended up relative to the runway, I wouldn't be surprised if the plane only reached a few hundred feet alt before coming down. :(


Depends on the TOGW, but most take-offs use reduced thrust and firewalled thrust isn’t required to continue.

GF
 
memphiX
Posts: 49
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2015 2:46 pm

Re: Ural Airlines A321 VQ-BOZ 15 august 2019 Moscow emergency landing

Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:22 pm

acavpics wrote:
So if there is a bird strike on a flight, is it pretty much a given that the a/c is going to just plunge from the sky? There is not even a chance of being able to turn around and make an emergency landing on the runway? I'm surprised that the advanced system on the A320 family couldn't allow this flight or US1549 to return/divert to a runway.


Many GA pilots lost their lives trying the impossible turn. This pig was 750ft up and less than a mile from the airport.
 
T4thH
Posts: 403
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:17 pm

Re: Ural Airlines A321 VQ-BOZ 15 august 2019 Moscow emergency landing

Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:23 pm

Just happy to hear, all get out alive.I hope, all hurt will be soon fine again. And thanks to the pilots, for the great job.
 
estorilm
Posts: 720
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:07 am

Re: Ural Airlines A321 VQ-BOZ 15 august 2019 Moscow emergency landing

Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:26 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
estorilm wrote:
acavpics wrote:
So if there is a bird strike on a flight, is it pretty much a given that the a/c is going to just plunge from the sky? There is not even a chance of being able to turn around and make an emergency landing on the runway? I'm surprised that the advanced system on the A320 family couldn't allow this flight or US1549 to return/divert to a runway.

With a single engine working perfectly, that plane still requires a firewalled 33,000lbs of thrust to climb away from the airport. With both lost or mostly lost, full of fuel, pax and bags, the thing is a giant brick with wings - no chance to convert altitude to airspeed, you're screwed. Given where this thing ended up relative to the runway, I wouldn't be surprised if the plane only reached a few hundred feet alt before coming down. :(


Depends on the TOGW, but most take-offs use reduced thrust and firewalled thrust isn’t required to continue.

GF

So, you're doing a FLEX / reduced power takeoffs after an engine failure? ;)

I was talking about how much power is required to keep the plane in the air (ie usually MTOW / certain conditions on a single-engine at rotation w/ minimum climb performance). As in - even with that 33klbs thrust it's still marginal. The OP's assertion that it should be possible with ZERO thrust is simply ridiculous was all.
 
1989worstyear
Posts: 643
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:53 pm

Re: Ural Airlines A321 VQ-BOZ 15.08.2019 Moscow emergency landing

Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:27 pm

Chrisba320 wrote:
Well done to the pilots for putting this bird down safely with no casualties on board. I’m sure the A321’s advanced systems also played a major part in this not ending in disaster.


The systems are NOT advanced - they first flew in 1987 and use early 80s hardware.

However - they are mature, reliable, and very well designed when it comes to making the aircraft easier to land in emergencies such as this (think of the Hudson River landing); perhaps this is what you meant.
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...

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