DWC
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Re: Southwest, a stalwart Boeing 737 MAX customer, eyes other jets

Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:17 pm

TObound wrote:
I wonder if airlines can buy business insurance for catastrophic risk.

They are, that is how they survive them & families paid something.
But no insurance can bring people back from death, which is what all bean counters overlook.
Suppose that all airline & OEM management lifes were tied to that of their passengers ? Say Japanese style, seppuku / hara-kiri ?
Yeah, it does make me chuckle too, but I am sure then further security procedures would be implemented. Not just to avoid their own death, but because it is a way to internalize at last what they are overlooking : business is one thing, but above that, is the preservation of human lives ( same should apply to the army or Presidents ).

TObound wrote:
DWC wrote:
Because I remember JL CEO stating that their airline could not rely on a sole OEM, because I remember how that ended with JL ordering Airbus, this msg from SW has a particular ring. Naturally, SW is a different animal than JL, different business model, but they are healthy & way larger : they can afford whatever they want to ensure they stay sound & stolid.


Another aircraft type doesn't necessarily mean buying from Airbus. They could buy E2s.

I never meant Airbus necessarily, I was just detailing the "historic" example of JL.
Considering the ties between Boeing & SW, and those between Boeing & Embraer, E-jets are a logical conclusion no doubt, specially that Embraer badly need to score handsome orders now that the C-Series redubbed A220 is squeezing it with their two models.

But if SW are investing in their future, I understand E-jets are done with new versions, let alone getting them longer. For fleet commonnality between versions, the A220 would be the way to go & it has easily two decades of life. So does the A320, though I am aware Airbus is anathema with SW & many here.
But business is business, business comes first, bottom lines will make the decision, whatever that is.
 
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Re: Southwest, a stalwart Boeing 737 MAX customer, eyes other jets

Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:35 pm

TObound wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Airbus doesn't have the capacity to build a bunch more A220s.

Absent evidence, this is entirely an unsubstantiated assumption on your part.

I think there's a lot of reasons why we can assume that ramping up is difficult in the current industrial environment. BBD is trying to sell off its Belfast and Morocco facilities, so they aren't going to be looking to invest more. Industry wide there is a large backlog for the kinds of equipment need for aviation production lines according to our member lightsaber. We see Airbus already is not meeting narrowbody production targets. The only underutilized facility I can think of is in Renton! :biggrin:

adamblang wrote:
The linked articles read to me that Southwest is looking ahead to the long term, that realize they're approaching the limit of the number of markets that can support a 2500 nm 150 seat aircraft, and realize to grow they're going to need to introduce another fleet type to continue growing into new markets. And with those looming necessities they're going to have to get their labor agreements in order. Since that's a slow process, they need to start now.

This would've happened with or without MAX groundings.

We see that QF's Project Sunrise is being held up due to lack of an agreement with aircrew over the 22 hour missions being contemplated.

Seems wise to try to build in as much flexibility as you can get the unions to provide as early as possible.

Whether they give such flexibility is problematic, WN's unions seem to be less eager to cooperate than in the past.

Sokes wrote:
I can understand that a low cost carrier wants to fly only B737 or only A320. But why to have 500 B737-700 instead of a mix of -700, -800, -900.
Wikipedia says exit limit for passengers is
-700: 149 passengers
-800: 189 "
-900: 220 "
Wouldn't it be worth to have one stewardess extra for 40 extra seats?
Or is it a stewardess and ground crew complication?
Is it better for ticket prices if there is a shortage of seats?
What do I miss?

Yes, everything goes up in price as the size increases, including fuel, landing expenses, etc.

WN prides itself on a non-hub quick turnaround high utilization operation.

They fly to a lot of small markets where 189 seats would rarely be filled.

So if you do high utilization mix of trunk and spoke routes, maybe the +40 seats get filled 20% of the day is it worth the extra crew, fuel and airport costs?

Yields dilute as you add seats to a city pair, you can't assume the last seat brings in the same revenue as the first, it's a challenge.

People are making too much of WN taking -8s before -7s.

They are doing that because they are behind the curve with getting -8s on to routes that can support them.

WN's CEO said over time that 60% of the fleet will be MAX-7s.

There's no reason to doubt this, IMO.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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DWC
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Re: Southwest, a stalwart Boeing 737 MAX customer, eyes other jets

Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:35 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
I just don't see how, for instance, having lets say 100 A220's would make any difference at all at WN if the 737 were grounded.

1) for starters, you'd have 100 planes flying, 400 grounded, instead of 500 grounded. That a BIG difference, 100 sized fleet is a large company by any other world standard.
2) since this would be in an alternate world in the future, there is more to it : that order would have sent a shockwave to Boeing to get their priorities right & mend not only the 737, but all other models, including future MOMs & 737 replacements. In fact, that is exactly how aviation has become so secure today, compared to car traffic.
Basically saying the other 400 would never be grounded.

bob75013 wrote:
DWC wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
No it's not. There is a reason that virtually every LCC has gone to a single type. Groundings are (thankfully) increadibly rare. Even if WN had half A320's and half 737's, they would still be totally screwed if one was grounded.

Financially, as I stated, it makes sense to have one fleet, agreed.
I also mentionned large companies, where having a split fleet doesn't tickle their finances.


Are you sure of that? Then why is WN's gross profit margin ALWAYS higher than it's legacy competitors?

Positive. SW competitivity lies with that AND many other factors, FSC's are not a comparison, as they are in another league : lower daily use of airframes, service more expensive hubs or sought after airports, full service on board, heavy reliance on premium traffic which entails things like Lounges, better food & beverages (champagne, cognac, have a look at what the ME3 cater), amenities. Codesharing & Alliances also come at a price. And there is more.
 
SXDFC
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Re: Southwest, a stalwart Boeing 737 MAX customer, eyes other jets

Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:40 pm

For the people who think this is WNs way of getting Boeing to produce a better discount, etc, you’re wrong.. This isn’t the WN of yesterday, and the current MAX grounding exposed a somewhat “Achilles heel” of operating with only one aircraft type. IMHO within the next 5-10 years you will see another aircraft type at WN. The 797 or the A220..
 
barney captain
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Re: Southwest, a stalwart Boeing 737 MAX customer, eyes other jets

Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:48 pm

Another click-bait article from the Seattle Times. You have everyone with knowledge from the CEO to the Presidents of the pilot and FA unions saying it's not happening, and yet the headline reads WN is "eyeing other jets". Brought to you by the same "news" agency that claimed we were buying the A220.

Ridiculous.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
AWACSooner
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Re: Southwest, a stalwart Boeing 737 MAX customer, eyes other jets

Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:48 pm

TObound wrote:
Hopefully, Moxy can put a dent in them with the 223s. They are overdue for some lessons.


Yah, cause their nearly 50 years of continuous profits while all the other majors have been in and out of Chapter 11 due to their mismanagement is totally unfair, and WN needs to be brought down a notch.
:lol: :banghead:

You sound like AArpey in that "Day in the life of AA" documentary a decade ago when he whined about WN's fuel hedging and said he was eagerly awaiting their downfall when fuel prices worked against them.
Last edited by AWACSooner on Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
mcg
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Re: Southwest, a stalwart Boeing 737 MAX customer, eyes other jets

Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:52 pm

planecane wrote:
TObound wrote:
DWC wrote:
Financially, as I stated, it makes sense to have one fleet, agreed.
I also mentionned large companies, where having a split fleet doesn't tickle their finances.

The problem is to internalize risk when bad luck strikes, when the plague sweeps all the company's fleet to the ground.
Has happened, what, about 4 or 5 times in the century ? Those that I remember grounded : Comet, Tu-144, 737, 787, may be others, but all in all so negligeable that it is overlooked. Just like when the Tsunami swept across south east Asia in 2004, people knew it could happen, last time had been over a century ago so they decided they wouldn't internalize it, not in my back yard. And then hell broke out.

That is when it affects you, it's negligeable no more.
It is not because everyone forgets about it, that it is right. Some things could have been done. Most large companies have split fleet, actually due to availability & political considerations, but in the end that also serves to mitigate risks.


I wonder if airlines can buy business insurance for catastrophic risk.

I would assume so. In a very different business that I used to be in, our insurance policy covered loss of income in the event something happened like a building became unusable for a period of time due to storm damage. Obviously there will be some maximum that they will pay out but I'd imagine that the airline's insurance policies cover this type of event.


I suspect it would be hard to buy insurance that would (in effect) underwrite Boeings ability to design, build and deliver airplanes.
 
Elementalism
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Re: Southwest, a stalwart Boeing 737 MAX customer, eyes other jets

Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:57 pm

TObound wrote:
Polot wrote:
TObound wrote:

Nothing you said here contradicts what I said. Sure they have reasons for why they slowed the ramp up. But that doesn't change the fact that they did. And I actually think it's a good thing they did. It's giving them time to invest in facilities like the pre-FAL shed in Mirabel. And to work on supplier pricing and maybe even some PIPs.

But I can't help but wonder how much more motivated they'd be to put substantial sums of their own money if they got a large order tomorrow. Let's not forget. They are still running off Bombardier's committed spending on the program till 2021.

I don’t have any confidence that the C series/A220’s ramp up would have been any faster without Airbus (or with another company as partner). C series ramp up has been terrible from the get-go. Money only helps things to a point, it doesn’t deliver results instantly.


Money absolutely helps. Helps them build more efficient production facilities. Helps to fund advances to suppliers to motivate them to up output. Etc.

Airbus hasn't really invested their own capital in the program yet. Because they don't see the return yet. A large order that guarantees say an additional 5 frames/month would very much motivate them to advance their plans.


How much of Airbus not pushing a quicker ramp up has to do with potential to canabalize A320 sales?
 
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Re: Southwest, a stalwart Boeing 737 MAX customer, eyes other jets

Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:00 pm

zkojq wrote:
The lighter CS300 is a better aircraft for smaller markets than the MAX7 (or A319neo - not that it's relevant in this case), so it's an interesting proposition. Still very unlikely though. I don't see any point in WN buying neos.


A220s are ideal for markets like MEM, OKC, TUL, SDF, CVG, OMA and would better fit new market entries like TYS and XNA.
 
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Re: Southwest, a stalwart Boeing 737 MAX customer, eyes other jets

Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:01 pm

ewt340 wrote:
Yeah, it would be stupid to pass on A220-300. It's the most fuel efficient replacement for A319 and B737-700 right now.

I think if southwest actually order couple hundreds A220-300, Airbus would expand it's production capacity for it. They are desperate for big orders for A220.


WN also needs a smaller plane to replace the 737-200/500 niche that was retired in advance of the introduction of the MAX. There are cities in the WN network that need a smaller plane in order to increase frequency and improve connection opportunities. An A220-100 would give WN a plane that could allow them to connect to smaller cities efficiently.
 
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Re: Southwest, a stalwart Boeing 737 MAX customer, eyes other jets

Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:05 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
Yeah, it would be stupid to pass on A220-300. It's the most fuel efficient replacement for A319 and B737-700 right now.

I think if southwest actually order couple hundreds A220-300, Airbus would expand it's production capacity for it. They are desperate for big orders for A220.


WN also needs a smaller plane to replace the 737-200/500 niche that was retired in advance of the introduction of the MAX. There are cities in the WN network that need a smaller plane in order to increase frequency and improve connection opportunities. An A220-100 would give WN a plane that could allow them to connect to smaller cities efficiently.


As evidenced by the fact that we increased the seating capacity in the 300/700 from 137 to 143.

It's. Not. Happening.

Even the article repeatedly states it, yet somehow manages to come to the opposite conclusion.
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Lufthansa
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Re: Southwest, a stalwart Boeing 737 MAX customer, eyes other jets

Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:09 pm

boeing773er wrote:
I smell BS.

As much as I would love to see a diversified WN fleet, it’s not going to happen. Boeing will give WN whatever concessions they want so they will order more, or keep the amount of 737Ms on order. They still have a defacto Gentleman’s Agreement that all the other US carriers got rid of years ago.


Just like the Gentleman's agreements they had with American and Delta.... resulting in American becoming the worlds biggest Airbus operator in the world?
Southwest may have in the past been extremely loyal but the easy jet example shows you actually can change. The JetBlue example shows you can have
two types and still run a low cost model.... ditto for Jetstar and Air Asia. You guys need to open your mind. Boeing are in trouble and have been for a while
due to poor investment decisions and they send the Canadians running into the arms of airbus purely to survive.
They got arrogant, overplayed their hand and now the crows are coming home to roost. What else did you expect? There's an old saying. Be careful what
you ask for. you may just get it.
 
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Re: Southwest, a stalwart Boeing 737 MAX customer, eyes other jets

Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:14 pm

Addison Schonland also has an opinion:

Southwest has come to realize the 737 is not ideal for every market or route. As we noted above, this is not only about MAX. It is also a realization that MOXY lurks in the wings.


The A220 and E2 families generate seat costs that undercut older aircraft. Small and light with good range, these new aircraft are going to hit routes where the 737-700 and A319s are the incumbents. Even if fuel prices remain (relatively) low, the new generation of aircraft are going to be better.


“Up-sizing” the 140-seat 737-700 to a 150-seat MAX7 perhaps doesn’t provide a tool that can match the A220 and E2 in terms of seat costs. Which may be why we hear very little about the A319neo these days, but a whole lot about the A220, from Airbus. Perhaps, post the emergence of Boeing Brazil, we will also hear a lot more about the probably renamed E2 and less about about the MAX7. It could be that Southwest is anticipating a new world where it will need a “right sized” tool to limit the impact/damage from MOXY, Jetblue and Delta as they deploy their A220s.


https://airinsight.com/is-southwest-breaking-its-737-addiction/

I think

- the A223/ 195E2 are going to be 4-5t lighter than A319/737-7 for the same seat capacity
- airlines like the big savvy quiet geared turbo fans

and that refuses to go away for the 737-7. Moxy and Delta A223 are flying in regardless.And Jetblue.

Image
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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Re: Southwest, a stalwart Boeing 737 MAX customer, eyes other jets

Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:14 pm

DWC wrote:
1) for starters, you'd have 100 planes flying, 400 grounded, instead of 500 grounded. That a BIG difference,
No it's not. If you have a fleet of 500 planes and 400 get grounded, your network is done. You have a schedule, bookings, and overhead for 500 planes. Not to mention virtually every connection in your network is busted. There is no amount of magic you can do to make this work.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
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Re: Southwest, a stalwart Boeing 737 MAX customer, eyes other jets

Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:15 pm

Elementalism wrote:
How much of Airbus not pushing a quicker ramp up has to do with potential to canabalize A320 sales?

I don't think current A220 does much of that, A225 would, but now in another thread we read that won't be happening soon:

Babyshark wrote:
https://simpleflying.com/airbus-wont-be-making-a-stretched-a220-for-now/

Airbus has taken the time from their sudden A321XLR reveal to quietly announce that at this stage they won’t be creating an A220-500 stretch.

Twitter
Scherer on A220-500: Every plane wishes to be stretched but we’re not considering it right now. #PAS19

So to me it's still about Airbus wanting to keep the CSALP team under the gun to get to solid profitability, and Airbus not wanting to increase the price on its own eventual buy out of CSALP.
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Re: Southwest, a stalwart Boeing 737 MAX customer, eyes other jets

Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:41 pm

DWC wrote:
TObound wrote:
I wonder if airlines can buy business insurance for catastrophic risk.

...
Suppose that all airline & OEM management lifes were tied to that of their passengers ? Say Japanese style, seppuku / hara-kiri ?


Do we speak of the first or the second MAX crash?
As an alternative one may want to consider a golden handshake. In case you haven't heard: companies always struggle to get the best talent.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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Re: Southwest, a stalwart Boeing 737 MAX customer, eyes other jets

Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:42 pm

ewt340 wrote:
Yeah, it would be stupid to pass on A220-300. It's the most fuel efficient replacement for A319 and B737-700 right now.

I think if southwest actually order couple hundreds A220-300, Airbus would expand it's production capacity for it. They are desperate for big orders for A220.


They are? I would have figured the 95 from Delta, 60 each from JetBlue, Moxy and Air France, 50 for Air Baltic and 45 for Air Canada would make them not that desperate in the short term. And, mind you, 200 of those orders (plus some more) were signed just since July 2018. The plane itself has already attracted plenty of operators in the past year, and most slots in the near term are filled.

As much as I'd love a new A220 order, I really doubt this will happen. Boeing could probably sell them 300 MAXs ''for free'' to get them to avoid buying Airbus, as both A and B would do/probably have done. And that's exactly what they want: a hefty discount. I mean a thread like this pops up every 2 months, and it hasn't ever led anywhere
A350/CSeries = bae
 
PhilMcCrackin
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Re: Southwest, a stalwart Boeing 737 MAX customer, eyes other jets

Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:46 pm

What if this had happened a few years down the road when Southwest had a couple hundred MAXes in the fleet instead of the 30 or so they have now?

Southwest needs another fleet type to mitigate risk. If you look at their 10K, there it is clear as day in the risk factors section – reliance on a single manufacturer to supply aircraft(and engines).
 
DWC
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Re: Southwest, a stalwart Boeing 737 MAX customer, eyes other jets

Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:47 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
DWC wrote:
1) for starters, you'd have 100 planes flying, 400 grounded, instead of 500 grounded. That a BIG difference,
No it's not. If you have a fleet of 500 planes and 400 get grounded, your network is done. You have a schedule, bookings, and overhead for 500 planes. Not to mention virtually every connection in your network is busted. There is no amount of magic you can do to make this work.

Yes, But this is forum, not real life, so everything you or I say is oversimplified.
400 on the ground are a major issue that busts your schedule, but last time I checked, SW is foremost a point to point operator, so that simplifies its woes compared to a hub & spoke carrier.
Next, 100 flying frames do help to relieve the problem ; I don't see SW asking Hi-Fly for their A380 to relieve PAX, like Norwegian do.
In any case, what SW does not want, is to be grounded.

More importantly perhaps, as others say above, there are issues looming on the horizon, Moxy & Delta, but also the very fact that the 737 in some markets is more expensive to operate than the E-Jet or the A220.
Boeing will pay, actually are paying, their decision not to go with a clean sheet, we know why, because Airbus launched the A320neo and that caught them pants down. In the short term, the MAX may have seemed the way to go, but they not only rushed into it - hence the accidents that grounded one version, they also locked themselves financially & industrially into the stalemate of a mid-XXth century concept, even if modernized to the best standards, even if the NG & the MAX are essentially new planes compared to the 737-100.

Last, I am known here for toying with some Game Theory. If you play chess or read Sunzi where some is already present, there are ways to lure your opponent into what seems a winning decision only to pay it direly later. I do not know what Airbus had in mind, but I could see a scenario where they brought Boeing just where they wanted, in addition to denting into the 778 - which depending on how the ME3 play it, may survive or not. It's a long term game, chess is a good master.
 
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Re: Southwest, a stalwart Boeing 737 MAX customer, eyes other jets

Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:48 pm

I still wonder if WN would benefit from having a fleet of E-Jets to serve markets they currently don’t because they see them as too small to be served by 737s?
 
TObound
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Re: Southwest, a stalwart Boeing 737 MAX customer, eyes other jets

Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:56 pm

keesje wrote:

I think

- the A223/ 195E2 are going to be 4-5t lighter than A319/737-7 for the same seat capacity
- airlines like the big savvy quiet geared turbo fans

and that refuses to go away for the 737-7. Moxy and Delta A223 are flying in regardless.And Jetblue.



Looks like a decent case for the 195-E2, fielded in just enough numbers to beat back Moxy, Delta and JetBlue. The delta between the E2 and the A220 isn't sufficient enough to insist on the latter. And I'm sure Boeing can cut them a solid deal.
 
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Re: Southwest, a stalwart Boeing 737 MAX customer, eyes other jets

Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:01 pm

keesje wrote:
Southwest has come to realize the 737 is not ideal for every market or route. As we noted above, this is not only about MAX. It is also a realization that MOXY lurks in the wings.

...
I think

- the A223/ 195E2 are going to be 4-5t lighter than A319/737-7 for the same seat capacity
- airlines like the big savvy quiet geared turbo fans

and that refuses to go away for the 737-7. Moxy and Delta A223 are flying in regardless.And Jetblue.

I think the MAX-7/8/10 line up is ideal for WN's route network.

They tried diversifying with a smaller aircraft and failed miserably.

They had 717s in house and paid DL to take them off their hands.

WN knows what its core strengths are, and those strengths are different than DL, B6 or Moxy.

Moxy definitely is a wild card.

I think:

- Moxy is a new entrant trying a new business model
- The main feature of this model is flying between undeserved airports
- Moxy will have a junior and non-union work force
- Moxy is planning to handle all customer interactions via mobile apps
- This means a smaller and more flexible work force with lower costs
- Yet we don't know how well Moxy will execute this plan

In short, t's far more complicated than comparing aircraft weight and fuel burn.

I don't think Southwest can out-Moxy Moxy, and I think Southwest already realizes this.

Trying to introduce a second fleet type to serve routes they've shown they can't service effectively in the past seems a recipe for disaster.

Besides, if that's their plan, they are already too late to get started on it.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Southwest, a stalwart Boeing 737 MAX customer, eyes other jets

Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:18 pm

barney captain wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
Yeah, it would be stupid to pass on A220-300. It's the most fuel efficient replacement for A319 and B737-700 right now.

I think if southwest actually order couple hundreds A220-300, Airbus would expand it's production capacity for it. They are desperate for big orders for A220.


WN also needs a smaller plane to replace the 737-200/500 niche that was retired in advance of the introduction of the MAX. There are cities in the WN network that need a smaller plane in order to increase frequency and improve connection opportunities. An A220-100 would give WN a plane that could allow them to connect to smaller cities efficiently.


As evidenced by the fact that we increased the seating capacity in the 300/700 from 137 to 143.

It's. Not. Happening.

Even the article repeatedly states it, yet somehow manages to come to the opposite conclusion.


When they replaced the original seats with slimline seats on their existing 737's. The 737 has been stretched with each reengining. The 737 is too heavy an airframe to work in its original niche. Originally the 737-100 was designed as a 100 seat plane. A new lighter airframe would allow them to efficiently operate to smaller cities.
 
TC957
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Re: Southwest, a stalwart Boeing 737 MAX customer, eyes other jets

Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:28 pm

Come on WN - be the launch customer for 300 A220-500's !
 
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Re: Southwest, a stalwart Boeing 737 MAX customer, eyes other jets

Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:36 pm

Revelation wrote:
keesje wrote:
Southwest has come to realize the 737 is not ideal for every market or route. As we noted above, this is not only about MAX. It is also a realization that MOXY lurks in the wings.

...
I think

- the A223/ 195E2 are going to be 4-5t lighter than A319/737-7 for the same seat capacity
- airlines like the big savvy quiet geared turbo fans

and that refuses to go away for the 737-7. Moxy and Delta A223 are flying in regardless.And Jetblue.

I think the MAX-7/8/10 line up is ideal for WN's route network.

They tried diversifying with a smaller aircraft and failed miserably.

They had 717s in house and paid DL to take them off their hands.

WN knows what its core strengths are, and those strengths are different than DL, B6 or Moxy.

Moxy definitely is a wild card.

I think:

- Moxy is a new entrant trying a new business model
- The main feature of this model is flying between undeserved airports
- Moxy will have a junior and non-union work force
- Moxy is planning to handle all customer interactions via mobile apps
- This means a smaller and more flexible work force with lower costs
- Yet we don't know how well Moxy will execute this plan

In short, t's far more complicated than comparing aircraft weight and fuel burn.

I don't think Southwest can out-Moxy Moxy, and I think Southwest already realizes this.

Trying to introduce a second fleet type to serve routes they've shown they can't service effectively in the past seems a recipe for disaster.

Besides, if that's their plan, they are already too late to get started on it.


The 717 was not efficient enough to justify it as a different type in WN's network. It's just a rehashed DC-9 with new engines but the same old wing. An optimized new plane like the A220 is a totally different beast. My city has just 4 WN flights per day. There are serious restrictions on what iteneraries are allowed to connect. Many people drive to SAT, AUS, or HOU to catch flights on WN, because there are more choices of times to various destinations. More convenient connections would make it easier to fly from home than have to drive 160 to 200 miles to catch WN flights.
 
WaywardMemphian
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Re: Southwest, a stalwart Boeing 737 MAX customer, eyes other jets

Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:41 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:
barney captain wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:

WN also needs a smaller plane to replace the 737-200/500 niche that was retired in advance of the introduction of the MAX. There are cities in the WN network that need a smaller plane in order to increase frequency and improve connection opportunities. An A220-100 would give WN a plane that could allow them to connect to smaller cities efficiently.


As evidenced by the fact that we increased the seating capacity in the 300/700 from 137 to 143.

It's. Not. Happening.

Even the article repeatedly states it, yet somehow manages to come to the opposite conclusion.


When they replaced the original seats with slimline seats on their existing 737's. The 737 has been stretched with each reengining. The 737 is too heavy an airframe to work in its original niche. Originally the 737-100 was designed as a 100 seat plane. A new lighter airframe would allow them to efficiently operate to smaller cities.



Call them emegering markets where there is serious potential for growth like XNA. XNA was up 15% over last year in June before Frontier started Denver.
 
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Re: Southwest, a stalwart Boeing 737 MAX customer, eyes other jets

Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:51 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:
The 717 was not efficient enough to justify it as a different type in WN's network. It's just a rehashed DC-9 with new engines but the same old wing. An optimized new plane like the A220 is a totally different beast. My city has just 4 WN flights per day. There are serious restrictions on what iteneraries are allowed to connect. Many people drive to SAT, AUS, or HOU to catch flights on WN, because there are more choices of times to various destinations. More convenient connections would make it easier to fly from home than have to drive 160 to 200 miles to catch WN flights.

Sure, but 717 did show up with modern engines and fully trained crews, fully purchased spares, AirTran's IT systems, etc.

How many flights are you going to get after WN buys the new aircraft and spares, trains the crews, updates it IT systems to handle the new type, and still pays union wages to the crews to fly fewer passengers per plane?

Wouldn't WN be better off spending its money upgrading the routes it knows it has huge demand on to MAX-10 where it gets more benefit from the same two pilots without introducing a new fleet type?
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Re: Southwest, a stalwart Boeing 737 MAX customer, eyes other jets

Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:55 pm

N776AU wrote:
Their livery looks better on the A320 anyway :stirthepot:
Image

That looks amazing. I would love to see the A220-300 painted in their livery :goodvibes:

TC957 wrote:
Come on WN - be the launch customer for 300 A220-500's !

That would be incredible, but would most undoubtedly need major ramp ups in production which I'm not sure the A220 suppliers can do since many of their systems are used for the NEO and MAX programs. I'm thinking engines being a big one here.
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Re: Southwest, a stalwart Boeing 737 MAX customer, eyes other jets

Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:00 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:
barney captain wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:

WN also needs a smaller plane to replace the 737-200/500 niche that was retired in advance of the introduction of the MAX. There are cities in the WN network that need a smaller plane in order to increase frequency and improve connection opportunities. An A220-100 would give WN a plane that could allow them to connect to smaller cities efficiently.


As evidenced by the fact that we increased the seating capacity in the 300/700 from 137 to 143.

It's. Not. Happening.

Even the article repeatedly states it, yet somehow manages to come to the opposite conclusion.


When they replaced the original seats with slimline seats on their existing 737's. The 737 has been stretched with each reengining. The 737 is too heavy an airframe to work in its original niche. Originally the 737-100 was designed as a 100 seat plane. A new lighter airframe would allow them to efficiently operate to smaller cities.


I ask this because I don't know. How many of Delta's current and planned A220 routes do not fly into or out of a hub? Southwest's entire route network is based on point to point flying with natural connections that just happen to be there. These smaller cities are great for feeding hubs (also why hub based airlines have partners fly RJs and turboprops to hubs). They will also have only 1 or 2 flights a day to these smaller cities. That isn't WN's model. They aren't going to add a city that can only support 2 A220 flights a day to MDW or something like that.
 
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Re: Southwest, a stalwart Boeing 737 MAX customer, eyes other jets

Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:05 pm

Eyeing and buying are two different things. I could see WN with a subfleet of 75-95 seat planes for smaller markets with 3-4 daily flights to hubs. There are many more untapped cities for WN to fly into and win new frequent flyers. B6 could also do a similar plan.
Last edited by airlineworker on Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
bob75013
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Re: Southwest, a stalwart Boeing 737 MAX customer, eyes other jets

Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:05 pm

PhilMcCrackin wrote:
What if this had happened a few years down the road when Southwest had a couple hundred MAXes in the fleet instead of the 30 or so they have now?

Southwest needs another fleet type to mitigate risk. If you look at their 10K, there it is clear as day in the risk factors section – reliance on a single manufacturer to supply aircraft(and engines).


Pehaps you should write Gary Kelly and lecture him about the error of his ways
 
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Re: Southwest, a stalwart Boeing 737 MAX customer, eyes other jets

Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:10 pm

DWC wrote:
Southwest [...] the largest customer of the 737 MAX [...] proposed new language in the contract with its flight-attendants union that would grant it the flexibility “to fly more narrowbody aircraft types [...] the ability to operate aircraft other than the 737 "would give us the flexibility ... to better compete and grow."
Jon Weaks, president of the Southwest Airlines Pilots Association, said in an interview that the carrier's chief executive, Gary Kelly, "has bet the company on the Max."

1) This announcement is so unusual that it better be taken seriously, it may or may not lead to a diversification, but it does show deep mistrust in the management as to send it company-wide : it's ground-shaking, the very concept of Boeing's natural monopoly on SW is trounced & ingrained on everyone's mind. The Chicago boys have put themselves in a dire industrial, financial & communication nightmake. Now, it won't have devastating effects because of the duopoly & because of inelastic ramping-up possibilities.
2) betting the company on one single model is a very bad bet, it endangers the company. Of course, it has various financial advantages for bean counters, but JL, formerly Boeing stalwart too for over 50 years, went to Airbus after their woes with the 787. Norwegian is hurting badly, in part because of RR, but the 737-787 combo may cruxify them in the end. Suppose it was the 737-700 that had been grounded instead ?
The risk of being held hostage to one model, one company or one externality is so high that in retrospect it is appalling that big airlines like SW, FR, FZ, U2 still confuse simple with simplistic maths, business is never that simple. With such fleet sizes, diversification is marginally more expensive, it's even a sound insurance policy B6 now has, way cheaper than having part of one's fleet grounded or one's growth stunted.

Dutchy wrote:
an A220-300 would do nicely. But that means introducing another jet, but then again with a fleet as big as theirs, that should hardly matter.

Ditto. But if that happens, cannot be overnight, in theory.
But with the new momentum the recent A220 sales & top ups to DL, AC, AF have sent industry-wide extolling the model, plus customer's positive reviews, I expect new orders to follow & Airbus to pull some rabbit out of their hat, possibly in Mobile, perhaps even in Toulouse when the last A380 is delivered, freeing what is left of the space.



Whoa....."Boeing Monopoly?????" Did Boeing hold a gun to SW's head? SW walked right into a pretty good pricing deal eyes wide open it would seem...blame SW for getting stuck in the lurch with a single vendor.......not Boeing.
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Re: Southwest, a stalwart Boeing 737 MAX customer, eyes other jets

Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:11 pm

Also something else to factor in: would Airbus even entertain the idea of using LEAP engines on the A220, or are they fully committed to PW? I would think the maintenance training involved with the PW engines on a 221/223 might be enough of a headache considering the only engines on WN's fleet are GE/CFM?
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Re: Southwest, a stalwart Boeing 737 MAX customer, eyes other jets

Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:12 pm

planecane wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
barney captain wrote:

As evidenced by the fact that we increased the seating capacity in the 300/700 from 137 to 143.

It's. Not. Happening.

Even the article repeatedly states it, yet somehow manages to come to the opposite conclusion.


When they replaced the original seats with slimline seats on their existing 737's. The 737 has been stretched with each reengining. The 737 is too heavy an airframe to work in its original niche. Originally the 737-100 was designed as a 100 seat plane. A new lighter airframe would allow them to efficiently operate to smaller cities.


I ask this because I don't know. How many of Delta's current and planned A220 routes do not fly into or out of a hub? Southwest's entire route network is based on point to point flying with natural connections that just happen to be there. These smaller cities are great for feeding hubs (also why hub based airlines have partners fly RJs and turboprops to hubs). They will also have only 1 or 2 flights a day to these smaller cities. That isn't WN's model. They aren't going to add a city that can only support 2 A220 flights a day to MDW or something like that.


Most of WN's intra Texas flying goes through hubs at DAL and HOU or are parts of milk run flights that continue through those hubs.

My home airport used to have more flights before the reduction of the classic fleet to facilitate the introduction of the MAX. If instead of 4 or 5 737-700 flights per day to HOU, there were 6 or 7 A220-100 flights, it would be much easier to flow passengers into WN's system throughout the day.

Most of the WN flights go CRP-HOU-DAL and the reverse. And HOU and DAL are real hubs in the WN system.
Last edited by flyingclrs727 on Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
DWC
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Re: Southwest, a stalwart Boeing 737 MAX customer, eyes other jets

Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:35 pm

bhill wrote:
Whoa....."Boeing Monopoly?????" Did Boeing hold a gun to SW's head? SW walked right into a pretty good pricing deal eyes wide open it would seem...blame SW for getting stuck in the lurch with a single vendor.......not Boeing.

If you quote me & take up my time, make sure next time it is worthwhile.
1) For starters, we are in a "duopoly", so that in certain turfs, duopoly actually narrows to a "natural monopoly", both terms have exact definitions & implementations in economics as in political science.
2) Monopoly & guns are irrelevant, you are using a spurious connection to not think.
3) You've been here long enough to have read about Boeing's (and Airbus') actual commercial weaponry, practices & tactics : gentleman's agreements, throwing a tantrum when Airbus leased A300 to Continental, lobbied against Concorde flying supersonic over the US thereby effectively shunning it from the US ( I am not sure anyone else was interested other than Braniff ), going to WTO knowing full well they get tax breaks & cross-subsidies with the military, asking tariffs on the C-Series, etc. So Boeing ( and Airbus ) do use force, but in subtler ways you acknowledge them able of. Add buybacks, political pressure, servicing, there many more ways than the lay public is aware of.
4) For instance, a contract can be locked into monopolistic ends through deep discounts, with additional clauses that can perfectly prevent an airline from flirting elsewhere, all legal, its a matter of wording, and lawyers are paid for that. Deposits that lock an airline even further in what is not a "contestable market", meaning that the costs to get out of the contract are too prohibitive. Leahy was notorious for getting creative & snatching contracts from Boeing by offering buyback clauses that no sane OEM would do otherwise : Airbus may soon end with an A380 fleet of its own. Boeing also has a natural monopoly on Ryanair, at least while Leahy headed sales: because MOL tried to f... him big, it was policy to never sell A320 to FR.
While legal, or borderline legal, all these clauses & price ensure a de facto monopoly on a model, and if an airline operates one model only like SW ( model, not types ), then you have a monopoly, I'll let the lawyers split hairs if it is natural or not. If you don't like my using the word monopoly in this context, fine, but it is a reality, take it with Webster, the WTO and everyone actually that uses it to describe a situation rather than the actual means to achieve it.
Last edited by DWC on Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
SFOtoORD
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Re: Southwest, a stalwart Boeing 737 MAX customer, eyes other jets

Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:41 pm

WN seems to have some inflexible labor contracts. To have had to negotiate their labor deals to add the 737-800 shows how inflexible they are. This move w the FAs just seems like common sense.
 
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Re: Southwest, a stalwart Boeing 737 MAX customer, eyes other jets

Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:44 pm

OA940 wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
Yeah, it would be stupid to pass on A220-300. It's the most fuel efficient replacement for A319 and B737-700 right now.

I think if southwest actually order couple hundreds A220-300, Airbus would expand it's production capacity for it. They are desperate for big orders for A220.


They are? I would have figured the 95 from Delta, 60 each from JetBlue, Moxy and Air France, 50 for Air Baltic and 45 for Air Canada would make them not that desperate in the short term. And, mind you, 200 of those orders (plus some more) were signed just since July 2018. The plane itself has already attracted plenty of operators in the past year, and most slots in the near term are filled.

As much as I'd love a new A220 order, I really doubt this will happen. Boeing could probably sell them 300 MAXs ''for free'' to get them to avoid buying Airbus, as both A and B would do/probably have done. And that's exactly what they want: a hefty discount. I mean a thread like this pops up every 2 months, and it hasn't ever led anywhere


Of course they are. Can you imagine Airbus saying "no more! we don't want any airlines to order A220 in bulk!"

They need these big orders. Right now they don't have a massive reason to expand their production facilities since the order hasn't reached 1000 yet.
 
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seabosdca
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Re: Southwest, a stalwart Boeing 737 MAX customer, eyes other jets

Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:51 pm

Good God, the drama.

There is really nothing new here, except that Boeing is in a weaker negotiating position than usual. WN has publicly talked about looking at both the C-Series/A220 and the A320 on multiple occasions over the last 15 years or so. It would obviously be an expensive transition, because it would fundamentally change their business model, but it's also expensive if one supplier thinks they have you on lockdown. It is what it says on the tin -- both a reminder to Boeing that there are other alternatives, and an honest statement that WN will order elsewhere if it turns out to be in their best interest.

If Airbus could deliver the volume, a 223 + 7M8 fleet could be very efficient for WN. The problem is that they'd need at least 300 223s to make that work and I don't know how fast Airbus can deliver that many.
 
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par13del
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Re: Southwest, a stalwart Boeing 737 MAX customer, eyes other jets

Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:52 pm

A point overlooked is that WN does not hire or have any airlines within an airline operating any of their routes, their entire operation is done by 1 pilot group and 1 company. So the comparison to DL, UA and AA starts right there, WN is not feeding any of its hubs with regional carriers using a/c owned by WN but staffed with pilots on "other" wage and benefit scales. If scope affects which a/c AA, DL and UA operate, I would guess WN pilot contract does the same thing.
I suspect if WN is looking at any new a/c they first will see how much it will cost to operate that a/c with its current crew against the revenue to be generated by the regional jet with lower pax numbers, if the numbers do not pan out, cheaper to stay with the 737 and serve the market when the pax number pick up. How much the new a/c cost or how much more efficient it is may be secondary, does the A22X greater efficiency cover the cost of mainline crew?
 
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Re: Southwest, a stalwart Boeing 737 MAX customer, eyes other jets

Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:52 pm

SFOtoORD wrote:
WN seems to have some inflexible labor contracts. To have had to negotiate their labor deals to add the 737-800 shows how inflexible they are. This move w the FAs just seems like common sense.



Inflexible?

Weren't the -800 and MAX successfully added to the contracts?

If the language for a particular aircraft isn't there, it must be added before service can start on it.
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eicvd
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Re: Southwest, a stalwart Boeing 737 MAX customer, eyes other jets

Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:06 pm

Can you blame them, they’ve been screwed by Boeing. Would love to see Southwest & Ryanair give Airbus an order & that’s purely from an enthusiasts view of seeing a change. I’ve no allegiance to either A or B.
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Re: Southwest, a stalwart Boeing 737 MAX customer, eyes other jets

Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:13 pm

N776AU wrote:
Their livery looks better on the A320 anyway :stirthepot:
Image


That is admittedly a very good Photoshop.
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WayexTDI
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Re: Southwest, a stalwart Boeing 737 MAX customer, eyes other jets

Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:26 pm

ewt340 wrote:
OA940 wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
Yeah, it would be stupid to pass on A220-300. It's the most fuel efficient replacement for A319 and B737-700 right now.

I think if southwest actually order couple hundreds A220-300, Airbus would expand it's production capacity for it. They are desperate for big orders for A220.


They are? I would have figured the 95 from Delta, 60 each from JetBlue, Moxy and Air France, 50 for Air Baltic and 45 for Air Canada would make them not that desperate in the short term. And, mind you, 200 of those orders (plus some more) were signed just since July 2018. The plane itself has already attracted plenty of operators in the past year, and most slots in the near term are filled.

As much as I'd love a new A220 order, I really doubt this will happen. Boeing could probably sell them 300 MAXs ''for free'' to get them to avoid buying Airbus, as both A and B would do/probably have done. And that's exactly what they want: a hefty discount. I mean a thread like this pops up every 2 months, and it hasn't ever led anywhere


Of course they are. Can you imagine Airbus saying "no more! we don't want any airlines to order A220 in bulk!"

They need these big orders. Right now they don't have a massive reason to expand their production facilities since the order hasn't reached 1000 yet.

You know there is a happy median between "gimme, gimme, gimme more orders" and "stop, no more". It's not all black or white; grey does exist too.
 
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Re: Southwest, a stalwart Boeing 737 MAX customer, eyes other jets

Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:36 pm

keesje wrote:
Probably not. Likely the -300 would best fits the requirement. Comfortably <149 seats / 3 attendents, like the older 737-700s up for replacement.


Follows is the delivery timeline for the 362 737-700s that were purchased brand new (first delivery 17. Dec. 1997). Since Southwest flies 513 B737-700s the remainder were purchased second hand.
1997 3
1998 22
1999 32
2000 33
2001 25
2002 12
2003 17
2004 46
2005 33
2006 34
2007 37
2008 26
2009 13
2010 11
2011 18

My guess is that they could fly them until the frames are 30 years old (given no other alternative).
 
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OA940
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Re: Southwest, a stalwart Boeing 737 MAX customer, eyes other jets

Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:43 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
OA940 wrote:

They are? I would have figured the 95 from Delta, 60 each from JetBlue, Moxy and Air France, 50 for Air Baltic and 45 for Air Canada would make them not that desperate in the short term. And, mind you, 200 of those orders (plus some more) were signed just since July 2018. The plane itself has already attracted plenty of operators in the past year, and most slots in the near term are filled.

As much as I'd love a new A220 order, I really doubt this will happen. Boeing could probably sell them 300 MAXs ''for free'' to get them to avoid buying Airbus, as both A and B would do/probably have done. And that's exactly what they want: a hefty discount. I mean a thread like this pops up every 2 months, and it hasn't ever led anywhere


Of course they are. Can you imagine Airbus saying "no more! we don't want any airlines to order A220 in bulk!"

They need these big orders. Right now they don't have a massive reason to expand their production facilities since the order hasn't reached 1000 yet.

You know there is a happy median between "gimme, gimme, gimme more orders" and "stop, no more". It's not all black or white; grey does exist too.


Yeah thank you. To analyse it more, my point basically was that, until 2022 they are solid when it comes to production slots. In fact until 2024-2025 there are plenty of airlines that will be taking A220s. They definitely would need more orders to talk about ramping up production, or at least keep it going at the current rate. So assuming an airline would want at least a year to prepare for a new type, they'd need to get more orders to cover production slots by late 2021 at the latest. Considering they got over a third of the A220's backlog in just over a year, I'm confident they can manage that. Keep in mind as well that they're still ''cleaning up'' production in Mirabel. Like someone else said, they need to be able to ramp it up profitably, and you can't do that by just shouting ''OI BUILD MORE PLANES''. Also 1000 isn't any magic number or anything. They need to be able to prepare for the production increase ahead of time. If they can't attract orders at a steady pace, doesn't matter if there are 600 or 1000 aircraft on order.

So, at the current production rate, they're good for another 3 years, by which time they'll probably have attracted enough orders to cover the next few years and ramp up production a bit. They definitely can't justify an increase in production rate with the current amount of orders, but unless we're talking about the 737 or A320 you never see orders raining down immediately. It takes time, and considering there already are 7 major airlines or groups that have ordered or are flying the A220, confidence is building and it'll only prompt more orders. Like I said, the market is there, but we just need to wait a while. The A220 is pretty solid in the short term. If you're gonna worry this much, worry about the E2.

I wrote all this lateish at night so sorry if it doesn't make sense :D
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RobertPhoenix
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Re: Southwest, a stalwart Boeing 737 MAX customer, eyes other jets

Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:49 pm

One thing is certain. Sooner or later WN will retire their last 737 and will be flying one or more new types. (Assuming they remain competitive)

Maybe they only need a five year plan and can address this issue at a later date, but if I was GK I would at least be thinking about it. I would also be looking back at the days when they flew into smaller airfields and grabbed leisure travelers who had the time to drive a little for a less expensive flight, and wonder if i could do that again. How important that would be to me would depend on the profitability of the Central America and Caribbean flights. If they are as profitable as domestic, there is plenty of room for expansion there and I wouldn't need to think so hard about the future.
 
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Re: Southwest, a stalwart Boeing 737 MAX customer, eyes other jets

Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:22 pm

DWC wrote:
400 on the ground are a major issue that busts your schedule, but last time I checked, SW is foremost a point to point operator, so that simplifies its woes compared to a hub & spoke carrier.
Next, 100 flying frames do help to relieve the problem


No. Having 80% of your fleet grounded is just as big of a problem as 100%. While WN is largely point-to-point, they're not exclusively so and the operation basically collapses. You're still talking about supporting 100% of the company's fixed costs on at most 20% of expected revenue. And do they keep their intra-California flying, their historical base markets in Texas, or any of their larger operations at MDW, DEN, BWI, BNA, MCO, STL, etc.? It's not that different from trying to survive on 20% of normal oxygen. You might last a bit longer than you would with no oxygen, but probably not long enough to make a difference.

flyingclrs727 wrote:
My home airport used to have more flights before the reduction of the classic fleet to facilitate the introduction of the MAX. If instead of 4 or 5 737-700 flights per day to HOU, there were 6 or 7 A220-100 flights, it would be much easier to flow passengers into WN's system throughout the day.


The problem in your home market isn't with aircraft efficiency; rather, it is that higher labor costs have made smaller aircraft in the WN network less cost-effective. You wouldn't get 6 or 7 daily A220s to HOU unless SWAPA were to agree to low enough rates on the A220 to make that cost-effective.

TObound wrote:
Looks like a decent case for the 195-E2, fielded in just enough numbers to beat back Moxy, Delta and JetBlue. The delta between the E2 and the A220 isn't sufficient enough to insist on the latter. And I'm sure Boeing can cut them a solid deal.


You are vastly overestimating the inherent cost advantage of the A220 or E195 vs. the MAX7. Yes, fuel burn is important and the efficiency of the A220 warrants consideration. However, even a 10% fuel burn advantage over the 7M7 would only improve WN's CASM by ~2%, and there are overhead costs for the additional fleet which would eat into that. Moreover, due to the higher seat count and concomitant productivity improvement, the 7M8 probably still has unit costs below the A220.
 
bob75013
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Re: Southwest, a stalwart Boeing 737 MAX customer, eyes other jets

Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:26 pm

Given that Gary Kelly said this:

Speaking at a chamber of commerce event in Dallas, Kelly said Southwest has no plans to abandon the 737 Max. In fact, he said it will purchase "hundreds" more 737 Max aircraft.

https://www.inc.com/bill-murphy-jr/sout ... -lead.html

It seems that the wishers and dreamers on this thread are going to be severaly depressed and disappointed.
 
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centrair
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Re: Southwest, a stalwart Boeing 737 MAX customer, eyes other jets

Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:51 pm

Anyone remember back in the day when SW was rumored to be looking at a twin aisle aircraft? Those were the days... I think it was around 2005. Boeing was pushing the 787-3 with them in mind... more pax, less fuss. Same routes...
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Revelation
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Re: Southwest, a stalwart Boeing 737 MAX customer, eyes other jets

Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:24 pm

centrair wrote:
Anyone remember back in the day when SW was rumored to be looking at a twin aisle aircraft? Those were the days... I think it was around 2005. Boeing was pushing the 787-3 with them in mind... more pax, less fuss. Same routes...

WN is more likely to get a twin aisle 797 rather than a single aisle A220, IMO, yet both seem unlikely.

MAX-10, on the other hand...
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