Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
ILNFlyer
Posts: 539
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:34 pm

Re: Revival of the Dornier 328 (next try). Production in Leipzig planned.

Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:35 pm

terrificturk wrote:
The Dornier 328-100 and -300 have a great history of flying as 32 pax, as Corporate Shuttle, as VIP, as MedEvac /Air Ambulance... the built-quality far exceeded anything that was standard in this market, which is why they are still selling and flying.
Downside: it was over-engineered, required care and understanding, had no larger sibling (this was stopped due to management incompetence), and in the end was too expensive.
SNC being the main driver means that they will get a handful to replace what they operate already. If it gets a larger sibling this time, it could well sell up to 200.
SNC alsoowns ther TC-holder, where the customising and delivery centre will be. They know exactly what they are doing.


Ultimate Air Shuttle seems to have worked into quite a little niche for themselves with the 328 jet operating out of Lunken field (LUK) in Cincinnati as opposed to CVG on a regularly scheduled basis. They fly to CLT, ORD, CLE and ATL profitably using 328 jets exclusively. There may be opportunities for other operators to carve out a similar niche for themselves with this aircraft if they bring back the jets.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 4674
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Revival of the Dornier 328 (next try). Production in Leipzig planned.

Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:58 pm

T4thH wrote:
Sorry, I do not know, from where you have the numbers.


https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... te-459019/

It is quite specific, 20+20+20 ATR-42s and 15+15+15 ATR-72s.


Armadillo1 wrote:
Polot wrote:
VSMUT is not talking about per seat. A220/E2 raw fuel burn is getting close to turboprops, and making the raw overall trip costs competitive.


viewtopic.php?t=1355819
ATR 72-500 — 620 kg/h
Embraer E-170 — 1530 kg/h


numbers may be different a bit, but comparison is clear


The Embraer E2, not the almost 20 year old E-170.

An ex-colleague now flying A320neos at SAS has noted he manages to do short hops on the jet with a total fuel burn of no more than 200 kg more than on the ATR-72. Don't forget, it isn't hard to chop a third of the flying time off by using a jet. Just using those figures, for a 45 minute ATR flight you are talking 450 kg for the ATR, 750 kg for the E-170. The latest P&W GTFs push that difference down even further. So yes, the E2 and A220 are definitely putting pressure on the larger turboprops. Airlines not only get aircraft that are matching turboprops in raw costs, but if you can fill the jet you can beat them on CASM. Passengers find the jets more attractive, they are faster and can be used competitively on much longer routes.

You don't even have to look very far to find that this tendency has been taking place for a while. Lufthansa, KLM and Alitalia both replaced their turboprops with light jets of the previous generation. Air France is just getting round to doing it. I have worked with a number of other airlines that I know are all taking a serious look at the A220 too, some of them pretty iconic ATR operators.


T4thH wrote:
And please note, forecasts say, regarding expected changes in laws, additional fees for NOx and CO2, expected move to CO2 neutral fuels (which are more expensive e.g.), in Europe and other parts of the world the regional JET market will disappear or get negligible just verify the Boeing JET forecast for the next 20 years. .Now 240 regional jets, in 20 years around 60 will be left and these are already "old" for Europe. The market for Europe will move to the Turboprop, as we have seen it already or see it now for Norway and Sweden (there the laws, tax and fees regarding CO2 and NOx have already been implemented).


You are putting way too much weight on those forecasts. A forecast made by Boeing will obviously downplay regional aircraft, because Boeing doesn't build those.

Turboprops will be hit just as hard by CO2 and NOx emission standards. For an equal fuel burn, those emissions will remain the same regardless of engine type (obviously not electric, but that's another matter). A turboprop is still a turbine at heart. FlygBRA has just managed to avoid the negative press by flying on bio-fuels.
 
T4thH
Topic Author
Posts: 1100
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:17 pm

Re: Revival of the Dornier 328 (next try). Production in Leipzig planned.

Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:59 pm

VSMUT wrote:
T4thH wrote:
Sorry, I do not know, from where you have the numbers.


https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... te-459019/

It is quite specific, 20+20+20 ATR-42s and 15+15+15 ATR-72s..

OK, now I understand. Please note, there is only one source, who is saying, that ATR-42 have been ordered. The source is CAPA and it is behind a paywall. Everyone else, official statements, e.g. are saying something different.or it is just undisclosed. The lessor itself in the official staement says ATR-600. The Ceo of the lessor has stated only ATR72-600.
So either CAPA knows more than everyone else (because they have excellent sources), or they are just wrong. If the MOU will be firmed (till now, I have not seen a statement, it is firmed), we shall soon know it, as delivery shall start already in 2020.

And now something different. Linked sources are in German (sorry). Additional news regarding D328NEU.

100 will be employed in Oberpfaffenhofen and 250 in Leipzig. Development, engineering, maintenance and support will be/will stay in Oberpfaffenhofen and the production in Leipzig.
http://www.airliners.de/d328neu-oberpfaffenhofen-leipzig/51495
The first delivery shall be performed in 2023 (if possible). New engines, new cockpit, slight stretch and new propeller, 39 PAX. Seems, only a turboprop version is planned and no jet version. They believe, turboprop is the future in this market (40 PAX). And they expect to sell the bird on the civil, business and military market.
https://www.aerotelegraph.com/dornier-do-328-d328neu-leipziger-turboprop-wird-d328neu-heissen

According other source, first delivery planned for 2023 or 2024. Prototype construction and flight tests will be performed in Oberpfaffenhofen, regular production line will be in Leipzig.
https://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article198932301/Dornier-Flugzeuge-Sie-werden-wieder-gebaut-in-Leipzig.html
 
CFRPwingALbody
Posts: 379
Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:13 pm

Re: Revival of the Dornier 328 (next try). Production in Leipzig planned.

Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:10 am

Very good news that the D328NEU will be developed. (neu in German translates to new)
I hope it will get 0 to <10% USA content so it couldn't be effected by a US trade ban.
Apparently the TP developments have been missed here.
The exit limit of a plane with a combo of a type II and III exits is 40pax. Above 40 a type I exit and a type III exit are required. Thus I think it will be a <3ft /1m stretch, being 39 pax in high density config. The Do328 seated 30pax in 18,1" wide 34" pitch seats. I expect the D328NEU will seat 39 in 18,1" wide 28-29" pitch.
I think DRA (Deutsche Regionale Aircrafen ???) can better look at lower capacity planes than to higher capacity planes. I expect that ATR will have a -700 series operational by 2025.
The D328 (30-39 pax) , ATR42 (40-52 pax) and ATR72 (60-78 pax) form a nice plane family.
The Do228NG isn't selling well, LET L410ng isn't doing very good as well. And the development of the So is there a opportunity for a D228NEU/ATR22 19-24seat plane?
Some might already have seen pictures of a special version of this ATR22.

Do others also like the idea of D328/ATR32, ATR42 and ATR72 with jet engines?
And I would also like a Pilatus PC-24 with pusher props and a ATR-92. Sorry I've let my imagination go wild.

I think there definetly is a market for a 20-40seat plane. Globally there has been no plane offered for over 15 years. While the active fleet numbers ~800 30pax TP planes.
Several smaller airports in less populated area will benefit from an up to date 30-40 seater. I think upgauging 19pax to 30pax will also happen on several routes.
 
User avatar
terrificturk
Posts: 119
Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2014 4:00 pm

Re: Revival of the Dornier 328 (next try). Production in Leipzig planned.

Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:51 pm

T4thH wrote:
terrificturk wrote:
T4thH wrote:

Time is now (and now means few min ago), as prior announced: Or do you mean, that the Do328NEU will ever fly; this is of course a total other story.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/new-airframer-dra-to-revive-dornier-328-production-460396/



Edit, just had deleted the part with PW engines. Engines are not disclosed and pictures as Turboprop have been shown during presentation today.



The original Do328-100 had PW119 series engines (B and C). It would make a lot of sense to stick to that engine family, i.e. the PW120/123 as it is now. The only remaining question is about the prop: The original had the Hartzell 6-blade composite prop, when others still used 4-blade steel/alloy props... so will it be Hartzell again ?


You are just to fast:
More information on the aircraft's specification will be released in early 2020, the company says.

Today they have just started, the three partners have just signed a "memorandum of understanding"; so next will be the contracts, than they will start to employ the first designers, engineers and workers in Leipzig and Oberpfaffenhofen (250 and 100), build the first facilities e.g.
So, step one was today, than comes step two......and you are asking already for step 100... :hissyfit:



My bad... there was a spec out there before and discussions with potential buyers... so I reckon a lot of it is known... some decisions may not be out yet, i.e. stick with Honeywell or go Rockwell Collins...
 
User avatar
terrificturk
Posts: 119
Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2014 4:00 pm

Re: Revival of the Dornier 328 (next try). Production in Leipzig planned.

Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:54 pm

ILNFlyer wrote:
terrificturk wrote:
The Dornier 328-100 and -300 have a great history of flying as 32 pax, as Corporate Shuttle, as VIP, as MedEvac /Air Ambulance... the built-quality far exceeded anything that was standard in this market, which is why they are still selling and flying.
Downside: it was over-engineered, required care and understanding, had no larger sibling (this was stopped due to management incompetence), and in the end was too expensive.
SNC being the main driver means that they will get a handful to replace what they operate already. If it gets a larger sibling this time, it could well sell up to 200.
SNC alsoowns ther TC-holder, where the customising and delivery centre will be. They know exactly what they are doing.


Ultimate Air Shuttle seems to have worked into quite a little niche for themselves with the 328 jet operating out of Lunken field (LUK) in Cincinnati as opposed to CVG on a regularly scheduled basis. They fly to CLT, ORD, CLE and ATL profitably using 328 jets exclusively. There may be opportunities for other operators to carve out a similar niche for themselves with this aircraft if they bring back the jets.



Yes, UAC is well-known, even outside the U.S.; there are others there: Key Lime Air comes to mind also and quite a few private owners. The large cabin of the Do328 is an advantage surely.

SNC wants the Prop for now, but surely there will be opportunities to go full monty and redo the Jet also... I reckon they do the larger sibling first this time and then see to the engine options.
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 10862
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Revival of the Dornier 328 (next try). Production in Leipzig planned.

Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:04 pm

terrificturk wrote:
ILNFlyer wrote:
terrificturk wrote:
The Dornier 328-100 and -300 have a great history of flying as 32 pax, as Corporate Shuttle, as VIP, as MedEvac /Air Ambulance... the built-quality far exceeded anything that was standard in this market, which is why they are still selling and flying.
Downside: it was over-engineered, required care and understanding, had no larger sibling (this was stopped due to management incompetence), and in the end was too expensive.
SNC being the main driver means that they will get a handful to replace what they operate already. If it gets a larger sibling this time, it could well sell up to 200.
SNC alsoowns ther TC-holder, where the customising and delivery centre will be. They know exactly what they are doing.


Ultimate Air Shuttle seems to have worked into quite a little niche for themselves with the 328 jet operating out of Lunken field (LUK) in Cincinnati as opposed to CVG on a regularly scheduled basis. They fly to CLT, ORD, CLE and ATL profitably using 328 jets exclusively. There may be opportunities for other operators to carve out a similar niche for themselves with this aircraft if they bring back the jets.



Yes, UAC is well-known, even outside the U.S.; there are others there: Key Lime Air comes to mind also and quite a few private owners. The large cabin of the Do328 is an advantage surely.

SNC wants the Prop for now, but surely there will be opportunities to go full monty and redo the Jet also... I reckon they do the larger sibling first this time and then see to the engine options.


I doubt we will see the JET redone, it wasn’t a particularly great aircraft even when new. Going jet on a design based around turboprop speeds is not particularly efficient, and new jet engines will require much more extensive changes (jet technology has progressed a lot more than turboprops). Dornier got caught up in the jet hype the first time around, hopefully if this revival goes through cooler heads will prevail.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 13387
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Revival of the Dornier 328 (next try). Production in Leipzig planned.

Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:21 pm

T4thH wrote:
Aesma wrote:

Time will tell.


Time is now (and now means few min ago), as prior announced: Or do you mean, that the Do328NEU will ever fly


Yes it's what I mean. I wouldn't mind another type flying, although I must admit I've been on plenty of various regional jets, but no turboprop yet.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
vfw614
Posts: 3852
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:34 am

Re: Revival of the Dornier 328 (next try). Production in Leipzig planned.

Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:49 pm

The various German news reports clarify that...

... there will be no jet version (but possibly a hybrid)
... the fuselage will be (slightly) stretched to accommodate 39 seats (this picture of a display model gives an impression: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ECebooEX4AA4i2K.jpg)
... the aircraft will have new engines and props, resulting in lower emissions and fuel burn and a 1.000nm range
... EIS is eyed for 2024, with the prototype built at OBF and production aircraft at LEJ where facilities will be built for 80m EUR.
... setting up production is regarded as relatively straightforward as a lot of tooling and know-how from the D328 production is still available.
... German government is providing a 125m EUR loan, the state of Saxonia a 6.5m EUR subsidy.
... aircraft will be marketed for a variety of applications, not just for pax transport(e.g. mentioning of a gravel kit etc.)

Overall market demand for 30-40 seaters is estimated at up to 4.000 over the next decades.

Company website: https://dra-aero.com/

Generally speaking, I find the renaissance of smaller 1960/1970 designs as "NGs" quite fascinating - be it the DHC6-400 or the D228-200NG. I wonder what Viking will do with the DHC8-100. I would also be interested in EMBRAERs market analysis as they would be in the best position to enter that market quickly with a slightly stretched Brasilia, given that the ERJ135/140/145s are based on the Brasilia. But I guess it has too little appeal for niche applications and use outside the pax market.
 
iceberg210
Posts: 351
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 12:11 pm

Re: Revival of the Dornier 328 (next try). Production in Leipzig planned.

Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:37 pm

T4thH wrote:
The first delivery shall be performed in 2023 (if possible). New engines, new cockpit, slight stretch and new propeller, 39

I'm very curious what the new engine is, my hunch is it's just a different version of the PW120 but we'll see.
Erik Berg
“Little by little, we advance with each turn. That's how a drill works!”
 
T4thH
Topic Author
Posts: 1100
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:17 pm

Re: Revival of the Dornier 328 (next try). Production in Leipzig planned.

Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:18 pm

iceberg210 wrote:
T4thH wrote:
The first delivery shall be performed in 2023 (if possible). New engines, new cockpit, slight stretch and new propeller, 39

I'm very curious what the new engine is, my hunch is it's just a different version of the PW120 but we'll see.

For the abandoned Turkey Do328 program, PW had agreed to provide the PW127.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/new-airframer-dra-to-revive-dornier-328-production-460396/
Of course, this is now history and the Turkey version of the Do328 shall have been stretched to a bigger bird.
 
airlineworker
Posts: 194
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:20 am

Re: Revival of the Dornier 328 (next try). Production in Leipzig planned.

Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:57 am

Airlines have dropped small cities over the years as it was unprofitable to carry a few passengers and cockpit crews are hard to come by. The Dash-8s', A340's, etc are gone forever. From the airlines point of view, carrying 60-70 passengers per flight makes good business sense. I remember years ago when US had many slots at LGA and many were wasted on Dash-8-100's as US did not have a large enough mainline fleet to service more larger cities, but after the slot swap with DL, LGA flights are carrying more passengers per flight. Two runways is all LGA will ever have and they need to be used wisely for the benefit of the greater number of passengers.
 
CFRPwingALbody
Posts: 379
Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:13 pm

Re: Revival of the Dornier 328 (next try). Production in Leipzig planned.

Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:12 pm

Does anyone have a clue how large the maximum annual production rate capability the leipzig plant will get? I expect less than 50.
I expect that MPA (Maritime Patrol Aircraft) will be one of the well selling D328NEU special mission packages. This could replace Do228 and DHC Dash-8 -100, -200 and -300's.

One mayor advantage a turboprop has over a turbofan is the much higher bypass ratio. A TP easely has a bypass ratio of 25. While 12 is the highest currently achieved on a fan. A fan functions better at altitude than on the ground, a turboprop works better at low altitudes.
So a turboprop powered aircraft is better for short <800nm flights. I think there are plenty of these routes that fly over water or rough terrain.
Since early 200x there hasn't been an aircraft on offer for 20-40 passengers. (Possibly only ERJ135) I think it's new turboprop engines that will come into production that are one of the reasons the D328NEU is launched now.

The requirement for a flight attendant isn't arbitrary at all. The exit door regulation require a type II and a type III exit from 20 to 40 passenger seat capacity. For 19seats or less one III exit is sufficient. A type III exit can be operated by passengers. A type II and above exit need to be opened by a flight attendant. Thus the requirement for one flight attendant for 20-50 seat aircraft. Above 50 passengers a second flight attendant is required to manage the workload.
For aircraft with 40-80 passengers the plane requires a type I and a III exit. For 81-109 passengers a type I and two type III exits are required. (ATR, CRJ & ERJ)
For more than 110 on both the front and the rear at least a type I exit is required. (E-jets and all larger).
So with the current exit configuration and size of the Do328 at most 40 passengers are allowed to board the plane. If the exit door size is increased from type II to type I, the max seating capacity is 80 by the exits. But I think 20 rows 60 seats is already to long and thin, 4ab is better above 54 seats.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos