MSPNWA
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Re: Delta pilots file objection to expanded JVs

Sun Aug 18, 2019 8:15 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
That's not what was asked, and is an attempt to deflect since one generally cannot prove the absence of effect.

The question was, show that JVs have disadvantaged the consumer. You didn't.


You have failed to support your claim, and I called you out on it. The onus is on you to show the relevant evidence for a claim that defies economic theory. The evidence you provided doesn't prove anything.

It boils down to this. Both sides will have trouble proving the claims with data since there are so many variables at play. The difference is economic theory is supporting one side and not another. And then there's the anecdotal evidence, which is what the DL pilots are complaining about. They're not gaining capacity under the VS JV, which implies DL capacity has been restricted by the JV.
 
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LAX772LR
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Sun Aug 18, 2019 8:58 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
I called you out on it.

Only in your warped imagination. :lol:



ilovelamp wrote:
DL flies 47.5% of the EASKs in the DL/AF/KL/AZ JV. In other words, one carrier flies almost half of a 4 airline JV. As much as I want more international flying for my fellow DL pilots, this JV is in our favor already.

:checkmark: :checkmark:



TTailedTiger wrote:
So if the retirement of the 767 results in fewer wide-bodies on property you think the pilots will just be cool with it? Because as of now there are not enough scheduled deliveries to match the 767 fleet.

What do you think might be the operative clause in that statement? I helped you out a bit.....



TTailedTiger wrote:
And the lack of variety is really getting to them. A follow a DL 767 pilot on Instagram and he said he was sick of CDG.

There are few guarantees in the aviation business: but that no airline on earth would give a s#!t about THAT.... is however, one of them.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
SteelChair
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Re: Delta pilots file objection to expanded JVs

Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:02 am

Hard to believe that anyone could actually believe that an airline would adjust its route map to give pilots more different places to fly. How twisted is that?

Yeah, AA and UAL have more widebodies that DAL, but who is more profitable? And who has the best profitsharing? To say nothing of the job security that accrues to all employees of a better run, more profitable company.

Delta had a hub in FRA and competed against a home carrier. Same for NRT (except there were 2 home carriers). Both hubs are gone, yet Delta has secured rights to highly desirable airports like LHR and HND. And now, they have hubs in foreign countries that cooperate with the home carrier....giving customers many more options. And as far as being anticompetitive, do consumers benefit when there is so much competition that the airlines can't even cover cost of capital and all go bankrupt? There is a reason why airliner development has stagnated since 1989, as one poster has so artfully described. And it is not as if airfares aren't still quite low on a historical basis.
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: Delta pilots file objection to expanded JVs

Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:27 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
RetiredNWA wrote:
jagraham wrote:
This scope issue is actually quite complicated
- DL invested in VS and had VS do less flying to Asia and more flying to JFK. After all, JFK - LHR is the most profitable city pair. DL/VS is still #3, but without VS, DL was barely a blip
- Revenue is going up, losses are minimal. Profit is expected to return next year
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-virg ... SKCN1RM1GT
https://fingfx.thomsonreuters.com/gfx/e ... /eikon.png
- At the level of control DL has over VS, moving enough slot pairs would tip control over the 50% mark and muck up the whole arrangement.

DL does not have much slack in their widebody fleet
- It's discussed extensively here viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1411859
- From post #760 (thanks hkcanadaexpat)
07/22-07/28 Period
Total Fleet: 152
Scheduled Service: 145/152
Spares: 7/152 (2x76T, 2x76Z, 1x764, 1x77L, 1x333)
Conversion: 0/152
Maintenance: 0/152
Storage: 0/152
- There is not enough slack in the widebody fleet to balance JV flying at this time. More widebodies are needed at DL. And they are coming, but not at a fast clip (good thing too, because 787s have Trent 1000 problems and A339s would probably have had Trent 7000 problems except that RR was late from dealing with the Trent 1000 problems

Once DL gets more A339s they can rebalance TATL flying. And they should do just that as first priority as A339s come into service.
- DL must keep the 763s in order to make a difference (despite what many a.net pundits say). If DL retires 763s at anything near a 1:1 ratio as A339s come in, there will be a strike.
- DL can do more flying elsewhere in Europe (other than LHR, CDG, AMS) to balance the JV
- There should be enough profitable city pairs DL can come up with


A strike? By who?? ALPA-represented Pilots at Delta Air Lines? You have no idea how DALPA works - there will NOT be a strike.


Really? So if the retirement of the 767 results in fewer wide-bodies on property you think the pilots will just be cool with it? Because as of now there are not enough scheduled deliveries to match the 767 fleet. And the lack of variety is really getting to them. A follow a DL 767 pilot on Instagram and he said he was sick of CDG.


I genuinely hope this was posted in jest. If not, this displays a gross sense of entitlement.
"I dance and laugh among the rotten"
 
Cactusjuba
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Re: Delta pilots file objection to expanded JVs

Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:30 am

ilovelamp wrote:
reltney wrote:
If your airline claims to be an international carrier and only flys 48% if it’s international commitment, there is issues......

Unless you are an airline employee, your comment is worthless. Don’t even try......,

Airline employees, put yourself in these shoes.....


DL flies 47.5% of the EASKs in the DL/AF/KL/AZ JV. In other words, one carrier flies almost half of a 4 airline JV. As much as I want more international flying for my fellow DL pilots, this JV is in our favor already.


Just a correction: the EASK is 46.5%, not 48% nor 47.5%. And destinations aren't what matters, it's jobs. Recapturing higher EASKS ratios creates more top-scale jobs.

Rumor has it DL is looking to accelerate 339 delivers next year, and take on a few leased 333s from WOW. It remains to be seen if these will be primarily 767 replacements with growth only due to gauge.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Delta pilots file objection to expanded JVs

Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:37 am

LAXdude1023 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
RetiredNWA wrote:

A strike? By who?? ALPA-represented Pilots at Delta Air Lines? You have no idea how DALPA works - there will NOT be a strike.


Really? So if the retirement of the 767 results in fewer wide-bodies on property you think the pilots will just be cool with it? Because as of now there are not enough scheduled deliveries to match the 767 fleet. And the lack of variety is really getting to them. A follow a DL 767 pilot on Instagram and he said he was sick of CDG.


I genuinely hope this was posted in jest. If not, this displays a gross sense of entitlement.


I'm not sure I would call it entitlement. More like burnout. I've noticed that Delta has started limiting airports to single types. DCA is all Airbus except for a couple of 752's to SLC and LAX. Same for LGA, maybe 1-2 717's and the rest is Airbus. I would think the Boeinf pilots would miss the cool approach into DCA.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Delta pilots file objection to expanded JVs

Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:38 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Only in your warped imagination. :lol:.


Oh, I'm definitively not concerned about how you're taking it. I'll let your words (the lack of them in this case) tell the story.

LAXdude1023 wrote:
I genuinely hope this was posted in jest. If not, this displays a gross sense of entitlement.


It's not entitlement; it's a natural human desire. We aren't meant to be robots, and when you see your competitors get the longer end of the stick, it should bug you. This is often the pinnacle of a pilot's career. They have to work years for this chance.
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: Delta pilots file objection to expanded JVs

Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:03 am

MSPNWA wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Only in your warped imagination. :lol:.


Oh, I'm definitively not concerned about how you're taking it. I'll let your words (the lack of them in this case) tell the story.

LAXdude1023 wrote:
I genuinely hope this was posted in jest. If not, this displays a gross sense of entitlement.


It's not entitlement; it's a natural human desire. We aren't meant to be robots, and when you see your competitors get the longer end of the stick, it should bug you. This is often the pinnacle of a pilot's career. They have to work years for this chance.


No, it’s entitlement. People commute to the same office day in and out for the duration of their careers and don’t complain about it. I have to fly to Los Angeles almost every week with little variety but it’s irrelevant because that’s what my job demands of me. Sure I wish they were sending me somewhere else and it’s not exciting anymore, but it’s irrelevant.

The whole reason it’s a job in the first place is because we’re doing things we wouldn’t normally be doing. That’s the reason they pay us to do them. The pilots are not owed a variety of destinations to fly to, the are owed a paycheck and job security.
"I dance and laugh among the rotten"
 
ilovelamp
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Re: Delta pilots file objection to expanded JVs

Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:14 am

Cactusjuba wrote:
ilovelamp wrote:
reltney wrote:
If your airline claims to be an international carrier and only flys 48% if it’s international commitment, there is issues......

Unless you are an airline employee, your comment is worthless. Don’t even try......,

Airline employees, put yourself in these shoes.....


DL flies 47.5% of the EASKs in the DL/AF/KL/AZ JV. In other words, one carrier flies almost half of a 4 airline JV. As much as I want more international flying for my fellow DL pilots, this JV is in our favor already.


Just a correction: the EASK is 46.5%, not 48% nor 47.5%. And destinations aren't what matters, it's jobs. Recapturing higher EASKS ratios creates more top-scale jobs.

Rumor has it DL is looking to accelerate 339 delivers next year, and take on a few leased 333s from WOW. It remains to be seen if these will be primarily 767 replacements with growth only due to gauge.


The Bundle 1 baseline is 47.5%. A two-year average can go down to 46.5% essentially.

The accelerated deliveries aren’t rumors anymore. They agreed to move 3 scheduled 2023 deliveries to 2020 and got extra airframes from a lessor in 2021.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Delta pilots file objection to expanded JVs

Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:21 am

LAXdude1023 wrote:
No, it’s entitlement. People commute to the same office day in and out for the duration of their careers and don’t complain about it. I have to fly to Los Angeles almost every week with little variety but it’s irrelevant because that’s what my job demands of me. Sure I wish they were sending me somewhere else and it’s not exciting anymore, but it’s irrelevant.

The whole reason it’s a job in the first place is because we’re doing things we wouldn’t normally be doing. That’s the reason they pay us to do them. The pilots are not owed a variety of destinations to fly to, the are owed a paycheck and job security.


Guess what a pilot does first before he/she starts a trip...

I suggest you go right up to a pilot's face and rip them about their entitlement. See what happens.
 
Cactusjuba
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Re: Delta pilots file objection to expanded JVs

Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:35 am

ilovelamp wrote:
Cactusjuba wrote:
ilovelamp wrote:

DL flies 47.5% of the EASKs in the DL/AF/KL/AZ JV. In other words, one carrier flies almost half of a 4 airline JV. As much as I want more international flying for my fellow DL pilots, this JV is in our favor already.


Just a correction: the EASK is 46.5%, not 48% nor 47.5%. And destinations aren't what matters, it's jobs. Recapturing higher EASKS ratios creates more top-scale jobs.

Rumor has it DL is looking to accelerate 339 delivers next year, and take on a few leased 333s from WOW. It remains to be seen if these will be primarily 767 replacements with growth only due to gauge.


The Bundle 1 baseline is 47.5%. A two-year average can go down to 46.5% essentially.

The accelerated deliveries aren’t rumors anymore. They agreed to move 3 scheduled 2023 deliveries to 2020 and got extra airframes from a lessor in 2021.

And it appears 5 more than planned through 2nd quarter 2022, including 2 WOW 333s.
 
ilovelamp
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Re: Delta pilots file objection to expanded JVs

Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:43 am

Cactusjuba wrote:
ilovelamp wrote:
Cactusjuba wrote:

Just a correction: the EASK is 46.5%, not 48% nor 47.5%. And destinations aren't what matters, it's jobs. Recapturing higher EASKS ratios creates more top-scale jobs.

Rumor has it DL is looking to accelerate 339 delivers next year, and take on a few leased 333s from WOW. It remains to be seen if these will be primarily 767 replacements with growth only due to gauge.


The Bundle 1 baseline is 47.5%. A two-year average can go down to 46.5% essentially.

The accelerated deliveries aren’t rumors anymore. They agreed to move 3 scheduled 2023 deliveries to 2020 and got extra airframes from a lessor in 2021.

And it appears 5 more than planned through 2nd quarter 2022, including 2 WOW 333s.


Good news for sure. But as you stated earlier, it remains to be seen if they are pure growth or replacements. Obviously, I’m rooting for the former.


ILL
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Delta pilots file objection to expanded JVs

Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:05 am

MSPNWA wrote:
I'll let your words (the lack of them in this case) tell the story.

Indeed, seeing as only one of us provided facts or corroboration here, and it certainly wasn't you.


ilovelamp wrote:
it remains to be seen if they are pure growth or replacements.

That's the good thing about their current situation: can really go either way, depending on their needs.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: Delta pilots file objection to expanded JVs

Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:59 am

MSPNWA wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
No, it’s entitlement. People commute to the same office day in and out for the duration of their careers and don’t complain about it. I have to fly to Los Angeles almost every week with little variety but it’s irrelevant because that’s what my job demands of me. Sure I wish they were sending me somewhere else and it’s not exciting anymore, but it’s irrelevant.

The whole reason it’s a job in the first place is because we’re doing things we wouldn’t normally be doing. That’s the reason they pay us to do them. The pilots are not owed a variety of destinations to fly to, the are owed a paycheck and job security.


Guess what a pilot does first before he/she starts a trip...

I suggest you go right up to a pilot's face and rip them about their entitlement. See what happens.


I didn’t say all or most pilots are entitled. On the contrary, i don’t think most are. I said the idea that a pilot is owed a variety of destinations to fly to is entitlement. If I was having a conversation with a pilot who expressed that sentiment, I would gladly tell them to their face that it’s ridiculous. However I know quite a few pilots and none of them think like that.
"I dance and laugh among the rotten"
 
FCOTSTW
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Re: Delta pilots file objection to expanded JVs

Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:54 pm

Here is something counterbalancing this topic.

Apparently DL is increasing by 15% the offer in the JFK-LHR and BOS-LHR markets. Also, a new BOS-LGW section in being launched in 2020.

https://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/new ... yptr=yahoo
 
UpNAWAy
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Re: Delta pilots file objection to expanded JVs

Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:09 pm

I don't know a lot of the JV details or how different they maybe in each case but in AA's case the JVs have absolutely and unequivocally resulted in more AA long haul flying not less.
 
MIflyer12
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Re:

Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:34 pm

LAX772LR wrote:

TTailedTiger wrote:
And the lack of variety is really getting to them. A follow a DL 767 pilot on Instagram and he said he was sick of CDG.

There are few guarantees in the aviation business: but that no airline on earth would give a s#!t about THAT.... is however, one of them.


If, after the xx years of service that allows him to fly a widebody, TTail's friend isn't familiar with the bidding system to allow him to fly other types and to other destinations, he isn't very bright.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Delta pilots file objection to expanded JVs

Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:45 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Indeed, seeing as only one of us provided facts or corroboration here, and it certainly wasn't you.


Since I was discussing the theory of the scenario, I don't need any empirical facts to support factual economic theory. On the other hand, you do need relevant facts to support a statement that doesn't align with proven economic theory. Try again.

LAXdude1023 wrote:
I didn’t say all or most pilots are entitled. On the contrary, i don’t think most are. I said the idea that a pilot is owed a variety of destinations to fly to is entitlement. If I was having a conversation with a pilot who expressed that sentiment, I would gladly tell them to their face that it’s ridiculous. However I know quite a few pilots and none of them think like that.


Think of it not as "owed" but desired. It is a real factor. I've heard it myself from DL pilots, and I know I would feel the same way. Would you like it if your job becomes more monotonous while your competitors add variety? Probably not. But you would be entitled to think so apparently. Please tell one they're entitled to desire variety.
 
mm320cap
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Re: Delta pilots file objection to expanded JVs

Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:11 pm

SteelChair wrote:
Yeah, AA and UAL have more widebodies that DAL, but who is more profitable? And who has the best profitsharing? To say nothing of the job security that accrues to all employees of a better run, more profitable company.


For pilots looking for a job, number of wide bodies matters more than profit sharing. If you have twice as many widebody airfraft, you have more than twice as many widebody Pilots (2-3 FO’s on most flights). That’s between $50-$70 more an hour raise which more than makes up for the difference in profit sharing.

If I were a young pilot looking to get on with a major right now I would choose based on:

1) who hired me first
2) how the retirement map looks over my career (AMR seems to win this right now)
3) where I want to live vs where the hubs are
4) what type of flying I want to do (737’s vs 777)
5) what is the culture

Profit sharing wouldn’t make the list. Compensation is very similar in the big 4. How the company is managed wouldn’t make the list in the big 4. After 25 years in this industry I’ve learned not to be cocky about being “on top” or the “best run”. You’re one BOD vote away from having a horribly run airline at any given time.
 
mm320cap
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Re: Delta pilots file objection to expanded JVs

Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:16 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Only in your warped imagination. :lol:.


Oh, I'm definitively not concerned about how you're taking it. I'll let your words (the lack of them in this case) tell the story.

LAXdude1023 wrote:
I genuinely hope this was posted in jest. If not, this displays a gross sense of entitlement.


It's not entitlement; it's a natural human desire. We aren't meant to be robots, and when you see your competitors get the longer end of the stick, it should bug you. This is often the pinnacle of a pilot's career. They have to work years for this chance.


No, it’s entitlement. People commute to the same office day in and out for the duration of their careers and don’t complain about it. I have to fly to Los Angeles almost every week with little variety but it’s irrelevant because that’s what my job demands of me. Sure I wish they were sending me somewhere else and it’s not exciting anymore, but it’s irrelevant.

The whole reason it’s a job in the first place is because we’re doing things we wouldn’t normally be doing. That’s the reason they pay us to do them. The pilots are not owed a variety of destinations to fly to, the are owed a paycheck and job security.


Which is exactly why they are fighting the JV. Job security. If you haven’t noticed that was in pretty short supply for the past 18 years. There is a good reason pilots don’t trust their management teams and fight HARD for the gains in their contractual scope clause.
 
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spinotter
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Re: Delta pilots file objection to expanded JVs

Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:18 pm

SierraPacific wrote:
spinotter wrote:
SierraPacific wrote:
Finally, JV's directly hurt pilots and flight attendants with less and less destinations served with Delta metal. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that all JV's are is the shuffling of flights to foreign carriers that have cheaper costs. I wouldn't be surprised one bit if in 10 years the only international destinations served by Delta (Excluding the Carribean and Canada) would be ICN, AMS, and LHR.

I am glad that Delta pilots are standing up for Delta employees and are trying to limit the amount of outsourcing that is occurring now.


Not even CDG? That is a ridiculous extrapolation and I think you must have a purpose allied to the pilots and opposed to the general health of Delta Air Lines.


I am advocating for the employees of Delta Air Lines. The Delta international network has been shrunk over the past 15 years and has lead to Delta having the smallest widebody fleet of all of the legacies. These international trips are by far the most desirable trips for employees at Delta so it isn't a stretch to see why Delta pilots are going against this outsourcing.


I may be wrong, but I believe DL has the most ASM's to Europe among the US3. AA in Latin America, UA in Asia. DL has the highest profits among all airlines in the world, isn't that true? And DL employees share the wealth. Can you provide figures for DL's international network in 2004 and now, to show that they have shrunk? It seems as if domestic USA traffic is more profitable at the moment, doesn't it?
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: Delta pilots file objection to expanded JVs

Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:38 am

MSPNWA wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Indeed, seeing as only one of us provided facts or corroboration here, and it certainly wasn't you.


Since I was discussing the theory of the scenario, I don't need any empirical facts to support factual economic theory. On the other hand, you do need relevant facts to support a statement that doesn't align with proven economic theory. Try again.

LAXdude1023 wrote:
I didn’t say all or most pilots are entitled. On the contrary, i don’t think most are. I said the idea that a pilot is owed a variety of destinations to fly to is entitlement. If I was having a conversation with a pilot who expressed that sentiment, I would gladly tell them to their face that it’s ridiculous. However I know quite a few pilots and none of them think like that.


Think of it not as "owed" but desired. It is a real factor. I've heard it myself from DL pilots, and I know I would feel the same way. Would you like it if your job becomes more monotonous while your competitors add variety? Probably not. But you would be entitled to think so apparently. Please tell one they're entitled to desire variety.


Yes, its natural to desire variety. Most everyone does desire variety but its not something our employers are obliged to give us.

One of the posters above talked about the objection to the JV as a job security issue. That I can understand. If there is data to back up that JV's would lead to pilot layoffs, Im listening. If its about being sick of flying to the same airports, they need to get over it.
"I dance and laugh among the rotten"
 
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RetiredNWA
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Re: Delta pilots file objection to expanded JVs

Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:41 am

This thread is an abject disaster with absolutely nothing constructive communicated.
 
ilovelamp
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Re: Delta pilots file objection to expanded JVs

Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:06 am

RetiredNWA wrote:
This thread is an abject disaster with absolutely nothing constructive communicated.


“Pot, meet kettle.”
 
Cactusjuba
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Re: Delta pilots file objection to expanded JVs

Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:42 am

LAXdude1023 wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Indeed, seeing as only one of us provided facts or corroboration here, and it certainly wasn't you.


Since I was discussing the theory of the scenario, I don't need any empirical facts to support factual economic theory. On the other hand, you do need relevant facts to support a statement that doesn't align with proven economic theory. Try again.

LAXdude1023 wrote:
I didn’t say all or most pilots are entitled. On the contrary, i don’t think most are. I said the idea that a pilot is owed a variety of destinations to fly to is entitlement. If I was having a conversation with a pilot who expressed that sentiment, I would gladly tell them to their face that it’s ridiculous. However I know quite a few pilots and none of them think like that.


Think of it not as "owed" but desired. It is a real factor. I've heard it myself from DL pilots, and I know I would feel the same way. Would you like it if your job becomes more monotonous while your competitors add variety? Probably not. But you would be entitled to think so apparently. Please tell one they're entitled to desire variety.


Yes, its natural to desire variety. Most everyone does desire variety but its not something our employers are obliged to give us.

One of the posters above talked about the objection to the JV as a job security issue. That I can understand. If there is data to back up that JV's would lead to pilot layoffs, Im listening. If its about being sick of flying to the same airports, they need to get over it.


It's about equitable growth. JVs are essentially as close to a merger as you can get between two foriegn air carriers. As is, the work groups cannot be merged. At DL, there are scope provisions to prevent reduction of flying from the levels set at the birth of the JV. This is the "layoff protection" you inquire about. ALPA's concern is even though you've locked in prior flying levels, there is no protection from losing the future growth opportunities to the other airline. DL management last year coined a few new corporate slogans, at least internally: "Our Future is Global" & "Nobody Better Connects the World". For the pilots, this is about securing contractual equitable growth on DL metal within the JV partnerships.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Delta pilots file objection to expanded JVs

Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:43 am

MSPNWA wrote:
with proven economic theory

THIS is why I reference your imagination. Nothing you're blabbering about is "proven."


spinotter wrote:
DL has the highest profits among all airlines in the world, isn't that true?

They're most consistently the highest, yes; though there have been some periods where AA's gross revenue/profit has been somewhat larger. AA is nowhere remotely near as consistently at that level as DL though.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
luckyone
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Re: Delta pilots file objection to expanded JVs

Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:23 am

Memo to the United States Department of Transportation:

I am tired of flying to Paris. I don’t like this JV.

Signed,

Prissy Pilot.


...of all the arguments for someone to make about a joint venture that is easily the silliest. Most individuals I know who work in the airline industry long ago stopped caring where they fly. The senior folks seem most-interested in maxing out their hours in as few trips as possible—I flew ATL-EZE a few years back with a crew of FAs who basically made their month flying the route two or three times each month and that’s i and I similarly I flew ATL-SVO with a crew who reported the same. They spend most of their time sleeping in the hotel for the rest of it.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Delta pilots file objection to expanded JVs

Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:18 am

LAX772LR wrote:
THIS is why I reference your imagination. Nothing you're blabbering about is "proven."

It's not the first time you've apparently not understood economic theory, so I'm not surprised you believe it's fantasy.

We're still hoping you provide evidence showing us that the JVs are a cause of rising capacity and lowering fares over the years. All you've shown is an irrelevant correlation. If you can provide that information, that would be very surprising and worth much to everyone.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Delta pilots file objection to expanded JVs

Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:25 am

MSPNWA wrote:
THIS is why I reference your imagination. Nothing you're blabbering about is "proven."

It's not the first time you've apparently not understood economic theory, so I'm not surprised you believe it's fantasy. [/quote]
You conflate "not understanding" with "giving no credence to your uncorroborated prattle" which you clumsily attempt to pass off as fact.


MSPNWA wrote:
We're still hoping

Um, who's "we?" No one else appears to have difficulty comprehending this rather basic concept, other than you.


MSPNWA wrote:
you provide evidence showing us that the JVs are a cause of rising capacity and lowering fares over the years

Because you'll find that that's once again something you've concocted. Saying that pax numbers have continued a rising trend and fares have continued a d.o.d. fall despite the presence, is NOT the equivalent of saying that JVs are the cause thereof.

Attempting to obfuscate the two, is not only dishonest, but demonstrates the dearth of any argument you actually might have.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Flanker7
Posts: 334
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Re: Delta pilots file objection to expanded JVs

Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:53 am

Varsity1 wrote:
RyanairGuru wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

I was referring to domestic business class. In the US you get a big comfortable seat. In Europe it's a standard coach seat with the middle seat blocked.


Yes but you get proper food on a 45 minute flight, on a US domestic flight of the same length there's a chance that you won't even get a drink 'due to the short nature of today's flight'.

On flights up to about 2 hours service on European carriers is much better, and the flight is sufficiently short that the seat isn't a massive deal.



Wrong. Even European 'legacies' are charging for food and drink like a vending machine now. I'd take USA domestic all day long over any Euro setup.

I fly KLM all the time in both c and y are you telling me they forgot the charge me for the drinks and snacks/meals they gave me?
Flying blue only if possible
 
skipness1E
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Re: Delta pilots file objection to expanded JVs

Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:29 am

panamair wrote:
For example, without VS, DL would not even be at 10 daily flights out of LHR, or even in GLA, or EDI.

Not convinced that Virgin Atlantic has got anything to with BOS-EDI/JFK or JFK-GLA aside from a codeshare? There is no feed or common ground handling arrangement between the two, nothing I can see that affects the bottom line.
Likewise VS at GLA, it's overwhelmingly outbound Scottish leisure bound for the House of Mouse, whereas DL's GLA-JFK is not fed by VS at all.
 
USAirKid
Posts: 497
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Re: Delta pilots file objection to expanded JVs

Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:32 pm

FCOTSTW wrote:
Here is something counterbalancing this topic.

Apparently DL is increasing by 15% the offer in the JFK-LHR and BOS-LHR markets. Also, a new BOS-LGW section in being launched in 2020.

https://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/new ... yptr=yahoo


If anything it’s management’s response to not meeting their contractual requirements with the pilots.
 
FlyHPN
Posts: 82
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Re: Delta pilots file objection to expanded JVs

Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:56 pm

USAirKid wrote:
FCOTSTW wrote:
Here is something counterbalancing this topic.

Apparently DL is increasing by 15% the offer in the JFK-LHR and BOS-LHR markets. Also, a new BOS-LGW section in being launched in 2020.

https://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/new ... yptr=yahoo


If anything it’s management’s response to not meeting their contractual requirements with the pilots.

According to the site ALPA put up, Delta hasn’t had any violations this contract cycle (since 2016) in TATL scope. They’re all TPAC, Continental North America, and one that looks related to aircraft delivery. So, they may be to try improving relations, but it’s not directly a response to not meeting current obligations for London.
 
jumbojet
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Re: Delta pilots file objection to expanded JVs

Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:41 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
[ I've heard it myself from DL pilots, and I know I would feel the same way. Would you like it if your job becomes more monotonous while your competitors add variety? Probably not. But you would be entitled to think so apparently. Please tell one they're entitled to desire variety.


Just imagine then how pilots must feel at JetBlue, Frontier, Spirit etc. Absolutely zero chance of flying interesting and exciting aircraft. Blue, your going no higher than an A320/21. Must really suck. Same theory applies.
 
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LAXintl
Topic Author
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Re: Delta pilots file objection to expanded JVs

Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:27 pm

The Delta pilots just won arbitration over their Korean JV scope grievances.

The arbitrator sustained ALPA’s grievances that the Korean Air JV was in violation of the pilot working agreement. Now that these violations have been proven, the case will proceed to a second phase to determine the remedies for the violations.

What's crazy is that even with the JV, Pacific block hours flown by DL pilots were not even sustained, they actually declined 16%. So much for notion that JVs would provide benefits for both sides.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
airlineaddict
Posts: 355
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Re: Delta pilots file objection to expanded JVs

Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:27 am

LAXintl wrote:
The Delta pilots just won arbitration over their Korean JV scope grievances.

The arbitrator sustained ALPA’s grievances that the Korean Air JV was in violation of the pilot working agreement. Now that these violations have been proven, the case will proceed to a second phase to determine the remedies for the violations.

What's crazy is that even with the JV, Pacific block hours flown by DL pilots were not even sustained, they actually declined 16%. So much for notion that JVs would provide benefits for both sides.


With the acquisition of 10 LATAM's A350s, how does that help remedy the situation? Or does it?
 
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UPlog
Posts: 411
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Re: Delta pilots file objection to expanded JVs

Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:37 am

The AeroMexico arbitration decision is due any time as well.

airlineaddict wrote:
With the acquisition of 10 LATAM's A350s, how does that help remedy the situation? Or does it?


Depends if it provides true net growth for DL or they ultimately simply replace counts of older 767s headed to the desert.

Questions is -- will any proposed JV with LATAM give Delta proportional flying opportunities, or will DL again outsource ever more volume of international flying to a partner?
 
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LAXintl
Topic Author
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Re: Delta pilots file objection to expanded JVs

Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:15 am

DL pilots now going after AM JV.
They filed objection to blanket authority for DL/AM codeshare on beyond Mexico routes. Asking DOT to require airlines provide advance notice and allow others to comment on such future codesharing.

OST-1997-3289
OST-2001-10833
OST-2008-0305
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 1444
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Re: Delta pilots file objection to expanded JVs

Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:25 am

Good. Delta should be flying to these destinations themselves. I want a consistent product. Not tossed between multiple airlines on a Delta itinerary.
 
questions
Posts: 2024
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:51 am

Re: Delta pilots file objection to expanded JVs

Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:29 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Good. Delta should be flying to these destinations themselves. I want a consistent product. Not tossed between multiple airlines on a Delta itinerary.


I don’t want to fly DL all over the world. I prefer flying VA J to SYD vs DL J. I also prefer a slightly different vibe among airlines. But agree the standards, e.g., lie flat seats with aisle access, need to be consistent.

(Note: I like DL)
 
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UPlog
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Re: Delta pilots file objection to expanded JVs

Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:28 pm

DL pilots will go after AM hard as they just won their scope grievance arbitration.

The arbitrator found in favor of ALPA and that DL violated three sections of their pilot working agreement going back to 2017 with the AM JV.

There are more grievances pending in the pipeline, and likely be upheld as they are largely similar in nature.
 
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janders
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Re: Delta pilots file objection to expanded JVs

Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:47 am

With DL pilots keep winning their scope grievances, what is the next step. Does Delta have to cease and desist, pay pilots a monetary settlement ??
"We make war that we may live in peace." -- Aristotle
 
ITSTours
Posts: 435
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Re: Delta pilots file objection to expanded JVs

Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:53 am

Disclaimer: I do not have any inside sources...

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/delt ... scope.html

Reading up this forum about the dispute over KE JV. While the arbitrator acknowleged the violation of the contract, it seems like they also decided that US-Japan and US-Korea flights can be lumped together. Which means Delta can reduce US-Japan flight if it increases US-Korea flight to compensate. Seems like Delta doesn't have so much problems in Asia?
 
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Phosphorus
Posts: 612
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Re: Delta pilots file objection to expanded JVs

Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:43 am

Could someone explain -- if there is a JV between two airlines (Airline 1 and Airline 2), and Airline 1 has either
1) less absolute ASK traveled, or
2) less % of ASK traveled
(on the routes, covered by the JV)
than at the day of JV inception, than the JV is found to be detrimental to the employees of Airline 1, and Airline 1 is guilty of such behavior?
AN4 A40 L4T TU3 TU5 IL6 ILW I93 F50 F70 100 146 ARJ AT7 DH4 L10 CRJ ERJ E90 E95 DC-9 MD-8X YK4 YK2 SF3 S20 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 74M 757 767 777
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reltney
Posts: 466
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2004 1:34 am

Re: Delta pilots file objection to expanded JVs

Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:02 pm

777Mech wrote:
questions wrote:
On the flip side, the JV’s contribute to DL’s profitability from which employees benefit through profit sharing.

I’d also argue that the JV’s help create a competitive network with breadth and frequency that allows DL to capture, ie, win, profitable corporate contracts. Without the JV’s DL would be cost challenged to build a similar network and it would take much longer.


Profit sharing does no good when you don't have a job.



Best statement.....someone gets it! I want to repeat it.... Profit sharing does no good when you don’t have a job....... listen to that armchair airline wannabes...............
Knives don't kill people. People with knives kill people.
OUTLAW KNIVES.

I am a pilot, therefore I envy no one...
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 5840
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Delta pilots file objection to expanded JVs

Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:36 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
Could someone explain -- if there is a JV between two airlines (Airline 1 and Airline 2), and Airline 1 has either
1) less absolute ASK traveled, or
2) less % of ASK traveled
(on the routes, covered by the JV)
than at the day of JV inception, than the JV is found to be detrimental to the employees of Airline 1, and Airline 1 is guilty of such behavior?


No, nobody could, because the construct doesn't make any sense.

Carrier A and Carrier B have contractual responsibilities between each other. Carrier A may have contractual responsibilities to a certain work group (understood to be pilots). If Carrier A is meeting obligations to Carrier B and to Carrier A work groups it doesn't matter (legally) if work groups don't like it. Again, the DOT is supposed to look for for general U.S. traveler welfare, not the size of the slice of pie obtained by pilots.

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