FlyingElvii
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Delta Pax sit on Delayed JFK-MIA Flight for 8 Hours, Fight Erupts

Sat Aug 17, 2019 6:13 am

DL 2385 on Thursday Night. Conflicting claims on Twitter, not clear if they were on the plane for the entire 8 hours.
Remote parked, no ramp available, etc. Claims of no food, and no water.

Weather was an issue Thursday night, but not nearly as bad as other recent days.

https://www.local10.com/travel/frustrat ... -for-miami
 
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chepos
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Re: Delta Pax sit on Delayed JFK-MIA Flight for 8 Hours, Fight Erupts

Sat Aug 17, 2019 6:45 am

I am sure I am missing parts of the story, but why push if they expected a lengthy ground delay? If they had been on the ground for a lengthy time why not return to the terminal, rather than a remote stand? I am assuming sometime between hour 1 and 8 a gate had to open at the DL terminal at JFK. Certainly that must have been a tense 2 hour flight once enroute.


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sabby
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Re: Delta Pax sit on Delayed JFK-MIA Flight for 8 Hours, Fight Erupts

Sat Aug 17, 2019 8:59 am

chepos wrote:
I am sure I am missing parts of the story, but why push if they expected a lengthy ground delay? If they had been on the ground for a lengthy time why not return to the terminal, rather than a remote stand? I am assuming sometime between hour 1 and 8 a gate had to open at the DL terminal at JFK. Certainly that must have been a tense 2 hour flight once enroute.


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I don't know about this particular instance, but I have heard of many occurrences (not 8 hours but a couple of hours) of boarding and waiting in apron to avoid financially compensating and/or re-booking via other airlines.
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: Delta Pax sit on Delayed JFK-MIA Flight for 8 Hours, Fight Erupts

Sat Aug 17, 2019 9:13 am

Interesting how in the last video, the news station only grudgingly acknowledged that DL was in compliance with all federal requirements regarding ramp/taxiway delays.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Delta Pax sit on Delayed JFK-MIA Flight for 8 Hours, Fight Erupts

Sat Aug 17, 2019 9:16 am

sabby wrote:
I don't know about this particular instance, but I have heard of many occurrences (not 8 hours but a couple of hours) of boarding and waiting in apron to avoid financially compensating and/or re-booking via other airlines.


The three-hour rule exists to make that unaffordable for airlines. For a wait this long, I sure hope that the DOT fines DL the full amount as a reminder as to why not to allow this to happen.
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jfklganyc
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Re: Delta Pax sit on Delayed JFK-MIA Flight for 8 Hours, Fight Erupts

Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:46 am

Duplicate
Last edited by jfklganyc on Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: Delta Pax sit on Delayed JFK-MIA Flight for 8 Hours, Fight Erupts

Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:47 am

Just want to add this:

if they were parked on a remote stand

and they were given food and water every 2 hrs

And they had the option of bussing to the terminal

Delta is in complete compliance with the DOT tarmac rule

Many of the posters on here just one familiar with the DOT rules put in place

As long as passengers are given a deplane opportunity via stairs and bus or gate and as long as cabin door is open...No passenger is being held there against their will
 
codc10
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Re: Delta Pax sit on Delayed JFK-MIA Flight for 8 Hours, Fight Erupts

Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:52 am

At least it didn’t cancel...
 
kiowa
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Re: Delta Pax sit on Delayed JFK-MIA Flight for 8 Hours, Fight Erupts

Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:12 pm

DocLightning wrote:
sabby wrote:
I don't know about this particular instance, but I have heard of many occurrences (not 8 hours but a couple of hours) of boarding and waiting in apron to avoid financially compensating and/or re-booking via other airlines.


The three-hour rule exists to make that unaffordable for airlines. For a wait this long, I sure hope that the DOT fines DL the full amount as a reminder as to why not to allow this to happen.


Sadly, for the passengers. If Delta gets find the full amount the government will collect the money but the passengers will get nothing.
 
jayunited
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Re: Delta Pax sit on Delayed JFK-MIA Flight for 8 Hours, Fight Erupts

Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:21 pm

Looking at the second twitter posting its clear by the time the police arrived there were air stairs and buses at the remote gate. When did the air stairs and busses arrive isn't clear.
But that second video on twitter shows the Dr. Dao effect, even though 2 passengers were fighting onboard the police instead of just taking them off the aircraft asked the crew if they wanted to put them off the aircraft. In the video the FA's seems reluctant to identify the passengers who were fights she just tell the police they are back there and you can hear the pilot state he was behind the lock door on the flight deck. The offer asked again do you want to remove the passengers who were fighting the captain seems to say he just wants to get out of there meaning he wants to leave MIA.

That is the power of social media and the effect of Dr. Dao that passengers can literally start fighting each other on an aircraft and remain onboard. Airlines today especially US carriers are reluctant to remove passengers from a flight once they have boarded. Dr. Dao UA was wrong, passengers fighting each other onboard a flight they should have been removed.
 
CMHtraveler
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Re: Delta Pax sit on Delayed JFK-MIA Flight for 8 Hours, Fight Erupts

Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:33 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
As long as passengers are given a deplane opportunity via stairs and bus or gate and as long as cabin door is open...No passenger is being held there against their will


This is important. I was recently on an AA mad dog where takeoff was rejected due to the FO’s attitude indicator failing on takeoff roll and we taxied back to the gate at DFW. Immediately upon reaching the gate, an FA made the announcement that “you are free to leave the plane BUT the captain requests that you remain on board... hopefully maintenance will be here soon to check it out.”

There must have been about eight of us who knew A) that there was another flight to CMH leaving in an hour, and B) the likelihood of prompt AA maintenance amidst the current labor dispute.

We rushed off the plane, across three terminals via skytrain, and were rebooked on the later flight- which of course arrived at CMH more than an hour ahead of the original mad dog. It was a gamble- had the later flight been full we would have been SOL since you are removed from the flight once you exit the aircraft. If you travel regularly, sometimes knowing just a bit about the airline and schedule can be a big advantage.
 
jumbojet
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Re: Delta Pax sit on Delayed JFK-MIA Flight for 8 Hours, Fight Erupts

Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:34 pm

jayunited wrote:
But that second video on twitter shows the Dr. Dao effect, .


You gotta be kdding me, right? I was going to refrain from posting on this thread because typically it leads to no good. No way is this even remotely comparable to Dao. Dao was removed by force due to UA's policy when he was sitting in a seat he paid for. Surely we don't need to bring that up again, but since you did....
 
kiowa
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Re: Delta Pax sit on Delayed JFK-MIA Flight for 8 Hours, Fight Erupts

Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:08 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
Just want to add this:

if they were parked on a remote stand

and they were given food and water every 2 hrs

And they had the option of bussing to the terminal

Delta is in complete compliance with the DOT tarmac rule

Many of the posters on here just one familiar with the DOT rules put in place

As long as passengers are given a deplane opportunity via stairs and bus or gate and as long as cabin door is open...No passenger is being held there against their will


Is there a website that shows government fines for extended delays? How can you tell if Delta got fined for this?
 
smi0006
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Re: Delta Pax sit on Delayed JFK-MIA Flight for 8 Hours, Fight Erupts

Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:26 pm

Do the crew get paid for this? Don’t use crew have weird rule about only being paid once the aircraft is of blocks? What happens when it returns to the bay?
 
jasoncrh
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Re: Delta Pax sit on Delayed JFK-MIA Flight for 8 Hours, Fight Erupts

Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:33 pm

Fines usually come a quarter or two after an event. Fine if any won’t have been assessed yet
quote="kiowa"]
jfklganyc wrote:
Just want to add this:

if they were parked on a remote stand

and they were given food and water every 2 hrs

And they had the option of bussing to the terminal

Delta is in complete compliance with the DOT tarmac rule

Many of the posters on here just one familiar with the DOT rules put in place

As long as passengers are given a deplane opportunity via stairs and bus or gate and as long as cabin door is open...No passenger is being held there against their will


Is there a website that shows government fines for extended delays? How can you tell if Delta got fined for this?[/quote]
 
jayunited
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Re: Delta Pax sit on Delayed JFK-MIA Flight for 8 Hours, Fight Erupts

Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:05 pm

jumbojet wrote:
jayunited wrote:
But that second video on twitter shows the Dr. Dao effect, .


You gotta be kdding me, right? I was going to refrain from posting on this thread because typically it leads to no good. No way is this even remotely comparable to Dao. Dao was removed by force due to UA's policy when he was sitting in a seat he paid for. Surely we don't need to bring that up again, but since you did....


No I'm not kidding you can clearly hear the announcement from the caption address the physical fight and items being thrown about the cabin and you can clear see the officers asking the FA to identify the passengers involved in the physical altercation but the FA didn't and when the captain was asked several times if he wanted the passengers who were involved in the fight removed he responded he just wants to leave. This is clear that policies and procedures have changed and when passengers are allowed to remain onboard even after a physical altercation that is telling. And its not just DL as I stated her in the US there has been a clear shift in the policy concerning when an airline will remove a passengers from a flight. Its not a negative or a positive its just a fact that airlines now think twice or three times before they remove a customer even customers who were involved in a physical fight onboard the aircraft.
 
bravotango75
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Re: Delta Pax sit on Delayed JFK-MIA Flight for 8 Hours, Fight Erupts

Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:18 pm

NYC-Florida flights are "Zoos" to begin with, not at all shocked by this. An ex-girlfriend was an FA for Pan Am back in the day, even back then, physical altercations were not uncommon.
 
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chepos
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Re: Delta Pax sit on Delayed JFK-MIA Flight for 8 Hours, Fight Erupts

Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:32 pm

jayunited wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
jayunited wrote:
But that second video on twitter shows the Dr. Dao effect, .


You gotta be kdding me, right? I was going to refrain from posting on this thread because typically it leads to no good. No way is this even remotely comparable to Dao. Dao was removed by force due to UA's policy when he was sitting in a seat he paid for. Surely we don't need to bring that up again, but since you did....


No I'm not kidding you can clearly hear the announcement from the caption address the physical fight and items being thrown about the cabin and you can clear see the officers asking the FA to identify the passengers involved in the physical altercation but the FA didn't and when the captain was asked several times if he wanted the passengers who were involved in the fight removed he responded he just wants to leave. This is clear that policies and procedures have changed and when passengers are allowed to remain onboard even after a physical altercation that is telling. And its not just DL as I stated her in the US there has been a clear shift in the policy concerning when an airline will remove a passengers from a flight. Its not a negative or a positive its just a fact that airlines now think twice or three times before they remove a customer even customers who were involved in a physical fight onboard the aircraft.


Which in my opinion is a problem, those fighting passengers should be removed. What if something triggers them inflight and a brawl brakes out. Then you have to divert and a bigger issue develops. I say remove them, that can become an even bigger issue once in the air.


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chepos
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Re: Delta Pax sit on Delayed JFK-MIA Flight for 8 Hours, Fight Erupts

Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:32 pm

jayunited wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
jayunited wrote:
But that second video on twitter shows the Dr. Dao effect, .


You gotta be kdding me, right? I was going to refrain from posting on this thread because typically it leads to no good. No way is this even remotely comparable to Dao. Dao was removed by force due to UA's policy when he was sitting in a seat he paid for. Surely we don't need to bring that up again, but since you did....


No I'm not kidding you can clearly hear the announcement from the caption address the physical fight and items being thrown about the cabin and you can clear see the officers asking the FA to identify the passengers involved in the physical altercation but the FA didn't and when the captain was asked several times if he wanted the passengers who were involved in the fight removed he responded he just wants to leave. This is clear that policies and procedures have changed and when passengers are allowed to remain onboard even after a physical altercation that is telling. And its not just DL as I stated her in the US there has been a clear shift in the policy concerning when an airline will remove a passengers from a flight. Its not a negative or a positive its just a fact that airlines now think twice or three times before they remove a customer even customers who were involved in a physical fight onboard the aircraft.


Which in my opinion is a problem, those fighting passengers should be removed. What if something triggers them inflight and a brawl brakes out. Then you have to divert and a bigger issue develops. I say remove them, that can become an even bigger issue once in the air.


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DocLightning
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Re: Delta Pax sit on Delayed JFK-MIA Flight for 8 Hours, Fight Erupts

Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:28 pm

CMHtraveler wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
As long as passengers are given a deplane opportunity via stairs and bus or gate and as long as cabin door is open...No passenger is being held there against their will


This is important. I was recently on an AA mad dog where takeoff was rejected due to the FO’s attitude indicator failing on takeoff roll and we taxied back to the gate at DFW. Immediately upon reaching the gate, an FA made the announcement that “you are free to leave the plane BUT the captain requests that you remain on board... hopefully maintenance will be here soon to check it out.”

....

It was a gamble- had the later flight been full we would have been SOL since you are removed from the flight once you exit the aircraft. If you travel regularly, sometimes knowing just a bit about the airline and schedule can be a big advantage.


This is the issue. Passengers sometimes get told that they can deplane, but that they risk forfeiting their ticket, etc.
-Doc Lightning-

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CriticalPoint
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Re: Delta Pax sit on Delayed JFK-MIA Flight for 8 Hours, Fight Erupts

Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:00 pm

jayunited wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
jayunited wrote:
But that second video on twitter shows the Dr. Dao effect, .


You gotta be kdding me, right? I was going to refrain from posting on this thread because typically it leads to no good. No way is this even remotely comparable to Dao. Dao was removed by force due to UA's policy when he was sitting in a seat he paid for. Surely we don't need to bring that up again, but since you did....


No I'm not kidding you can clearly hear the announcement from the caption address the physical fight and items being thrown about the cabin and you can clear see the officers asking the FA to identify the passengers involved in the physical altercation but the FA didn't and when the captain was asked several times if he wanted the passengers who were involved in the fight removed he responded he just wants to leave. This is clear that policies and procedures have changed and when passengers are allowed to remain onboard even after a physical altercation that is telling. And its not just DL as I stated her in the US there has been a clear shift in the policy concerning when an airline will remove a passengers from a flight. Its not a negative or a positive its just a fact that airlines now think twice or three times before they remove a customer even customers who were involved in a physical fight onboard the aircraft.


You fight on my plane and everyone is getting off period end of story.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Delta Pax sit on Delayed JFK-MIA Flight for 8 Hours, Fight Erupts

Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:35 pm

Park the plane at a remote stand. Bus the passengers back to the terminal. Refund their ticket so they can find another flight. That's all Delta needed to do to avoid this mess.
 
crownvic
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Re: Delta Pax sit on Delayed JFK-MIA Flight for 8 Hours, Fight Erupts

Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:24 am

kiowa wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
sabby wrote:
I don't know about this particular instance, but I have heard of many occurrences (not 8 hours but a couple of hours) of boarding and waiting in apron to avoid financially compensating and/or re-booking via other airlines.


The three-hour rule exists to make that unaffordable for airlines. For a wait this long, I sure hope that the DOT fines DL the full amount as a reminder as to why not to allow this to happen.


Sadly, for the passengers. If Delta gets find the full amount the government will collect the money but the passengers will get nothing.


In our world, a fine imposed on an individual or company (airline or not) never filters down to those individuals that suffered.
 
n7371f
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Re: Delta Pax sit on Delayed JFK-MIA Flight for 8 Hours, Fight Erupts

Sun Aug 18, 2019 4:12 am

Local news. Bury the important facts if they interrupt with an outlandish narrative.

EA CO AS wrote:
Interesting how in the last video, the news station only grudgingly acknowledged that DL was in compliance with all federal requirements regarding ramp/taxiway delays.
 
kiowa
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Re: Delta Pax sit on Delayed JFK-MIA Flight for 8 Hours, Fight Erupts

Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:19 am

CriticalPoint wrote:
jayunited wrote:
jumbojet wrote:

You gotta be kdding me, right? I was going to refrain from posting on this thread because typically it leads to no good. No way is this even remotely comparable to Dao. Dao was removed by force due to UA's policy when he was sitting in a seat he paid for. Surely we don't need to bring that up again, but since you did....


No I'm not kidding you can clearly hear the announcement from the caption address the physical fight and items being thrown about the cabin and you can clear see the officers asking the FA to identify the passengers involved in the physical altercation but the FA didn't and when the captain was asked several times if he wanted the passengers who were involved in the fight removed he responded he just wants to leave. This is clear that policies and procedures have changed and when passengers are allowed to remain onboard even after a physical altercation that is telling. And its not just DL as I stated her in the US there has been a clear shift in the policy concerning when an airline will remove a passengers from a flight. Its not a negative or a positive its just a fact that airlines now think twice or three times before they remove a customer even customers who were involved in a physical fight onboard the aircraft.


You fight on my plane and everyone is getting off period end of story.


What type of plane do you own?
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: Delta Pax sit on Delayed JFK-MIA Flight for 8 Hours, Fight Erupts

Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:13 am

I notice they did indeed either not report on the fact (or put it in the last paragraph) that passengers did have the option to deplane and get a bus ride back to the terminal. Couple of problems with that, the later flights to MIA might have been completely full, there could've been the threat that their tickets would be cancelled/they would be stranded in the airport (although that's a better alternative to the aircraft), and the fact airlines in the US 99.9% of the time will refuse to re-book you on another air carrier or change your destination.

A no win situation for everyone involved, including the passengers, flight crew, dispatch, and crew scheduling.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
RIP US Airways
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Delta Pax sit on Delayed JFK-MIA Flight for 8 Hours, Fight Erupts

Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:28 am

Wouldn't be surprised to see changes made the 3-hour rule. 8 hours is awful. Assuming truth to the offer of a bus, it's a clever way to circumvent the purpose of the rule and "trap" the passengers. There's a lot of risk to leaving by a bus. If the plane returns to the gate, you don't have to worry about it leaving without you as long as you keep an eye on it. This way you would not have that protection. You're basically saying goodbye to the flight, and that's not an acceptable solution for many/most/all.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: Delta Pax sit on Delayed JFK-MIA Flight for 8 Hours, Fight Erupts

Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:46 am

kiowa wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
jayunited wrote:

No I'm not kidding you can clearly hear the announcement from the caption address the physical fight and items being thrown about the cabin and you can clear see the officers asking the FA to identify the passengers involved in the physical altercation but the FA didn't and when the captain was asked several times if he wanted the passengers who were involved in the fight removed he responded he just wants to leave. This is clear that policies and procedures have changed and when passengers are allowed to remain onboard even after a physical altercation that is telling. And its not just DL as I stated her in the US there has been a clear shift in the policy concerning when an airline will remove a passengers from a flight. Its not a negative or a positive its just a fact that airlines now think twice or three times before they remove a customer even customers who were involved in a physical fight onboard the aircraft.


You fight on my plane and everyone is getting off period end of story.


What type of plane do you own?


It’s called being a Captain. I sign for that flight and I am responsible for everyone’s safety. So my comment stands despite your attempt at humor......if that was what that was.
 
IPFreely
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Re: Delta Pax sit on Delayed JFK-MIA Flight for 8 Hours, Fight Erupts

Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:01 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Park the plane at a remote stand. Bus the passengers back to the terminal. Refund their ticket so they can find another flight. That's all Delta needed to do to avoid this mess.


It appears Delta can't avoid messes lately. Within a few days they have this fiasco, the fiasco with the family of an autistic boy in Detroit, a trans-Atlantic emergency diversion to PWM, an in-flight engine failure, and a landing so hard they bent a 757. Things are spiraling out of control.

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