User avatar
TheFlyingDisk
Topic Author
Posts: 1816
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:43 pm

Mom, daughter kicked off Air Canada plane, not told they're banned from airline until it was too late

Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:28 am

As much as I defend airlines when it comes to pax issues, I feel that AC screwed up royally in this case. So this lady & her daughter was kicked off from an AC flight out of OTP for disruptive behaviour and yet managed to book an AC flight through AC via FRA, only to be stopped in FRA because that flight was operated by AC.

CBC News asked Air Canada why it allowed Constantin and Paun to book themselves on another Air Canada flight after it had banned them from flying.

The airline responded that anybody can book a ticket and that it's only when passengers check in and show ID that Air Canada can verify if they're prohibited from boarding.

The airline also said that it sent Constantin and Paun information about their ban shortly after they were ordered off the Bucharest flight. However, that information — in the form of a letter — was sent by regular mail and, according to Constantin, hasn't arrived yet. The two women did receive an emailed version of the letter one day after CBC News inquired about the case with Air Canada.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/air-ca ... -1.5247640
I FLY KLM+ALASKA+QATAR+MALAYSIA+AIRASIA+MALINDO
 
HBJZA
Posts: 331
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:23 pm

Re: Mom, daughter kicked off Air Canada plane, not told they're banned from airline until it was too late

Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:40 am

Next time she will not be disruptive and will not be kikked off flights. I have no mercy for her whatsoever!
 
aircatalonia
Posts: 614
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:50 pm

Re: Mom, daughter kicked off Air Canada plane, not told they're banned from airline until it was too late

Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:26 am

How on earth did they manage to spend 8000$ on 4 single tickets from Europe to Canada?
 
User avatar
flyingclrs727
Posts: 2399
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:44 am

Re: Mom, daughter kicked off Air Canada plane, not told they're banned from airline until it was too late

Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:49 am

Well people need to learn How to behave in public. If they hadn't behaved in a way that got them kicked off a flight earlier, they would would not have been denied boarding on another flight.
 
User avatar
LaunchDetected
Posts: 248
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:42 pm

Re: Mom, daughter kicked off Air Canada plane, not told they're banned from airline until it was too late

Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:08 pm

Being kicked off a flight is really hard and being banned is something really serious, not the kind of stuff you do inadvertently.

Those tickets are really expensive
Caravelle lover
 
VV
Posts: 852
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:03 pm

Re: Mom, daughter kicked off Air Canada plane, not told they're banned from airline until it was too late

Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:09 pm

Is mail service so bad in Canada?
 
Gulfstream500
Posts: 347
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:30 am

Re: Mom, daughter kicked off Air Canada plane, not told they're banned from airline until it was too late

Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:18 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:
Well people need to learn How to behave in public. If they hadn't behaved in a way that got them kicked off a flight earlier, they would would not have been denied boarding on another flight.


Uhh... the article says that the FA asked a member of the party to sit down, but the seat was assigned twice. Sounds like a coverup for an overbooking.

The FA asked her to leave the aircraft, but she refused. Then, she was escorted off of the aircraft by police. The airline cites the reason for them being kicked off of the aircraft being “failure to follow safety instructions (sitting down, according to the passenger), and verbal abuse towards the crew (saying that she can’t go back to her seat, according to the passenger).


I’d say that this is 100% the Air Canada’s fault!
Can someone please start a wikipedia list of failed startup airlines? I am interested in seeing just how long it would be...
 
bennett123
Posts: 8917
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: Mom, daughter kicked off Air Canada plane, not told they're banned from airline until it was too late

Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:43 pm

So how come they sold the second ticket without knowing the ID of the passengers.

Effectively, they sold a ticket not knowing that they were then going to refuse to provide the service.
 
alo2yyz
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:53 am

Re: Mom, daughter kicked off Air Canada plane, not told they're banned from airline until it was too late

Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:46 pm

How can one obey FA instructions to return to one's seat if the FA has seated someone else in it, as the pax claims?
There are contradictory accounts of why the two women were ordered off the plane. Paun said it occurred after she got into a dispute with a flight attendant who asked her to return to her assigned seat, and she replied that she couldn't. "I said that I can't move back because you just put a man in my seat. And that's when she just got angry with me and said that I'm not co-operating."


And this is ridiculous - a surface-mailed letter to one's home in YUL does no good if you're sitting in OTP.
The airline also said that it sent Constantin and Paun information about their ban shortly after they were ordered off the Bucharest flight. However, that information — in the form of a letter — was sent by regular mail and, according to Constantin, hasn't arrived yet. The two women did receive an emailed version of the letter one day after CBC News inquired about the case with Air Canada.
 
ordbosewr
Posts: 537
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:30 pm

Re: Mom, daughter kicked off Air Canada plane, not told they're banned from airline until it was too late

Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:52 pm

bennett123 wrote:
So how come they sold the second ticket without knowing the ID of the passengers.

Effectively, they sold a ticket not knowing that they were then going to refuse to provide the service.


How does AC know it is the same person on their no-fly list? I have a fairly common name (full name, including middle), I have worked at a 40K company and had 2 other people with the exact same full name. If one of us was banned from flying AC and we alll booked tickets, how does AC know until I show an ID which one I am specifically to allow or deny me.
I can see it now, AC bans someone from booking a flight and people go crazy because someone else happened to have the same name as one bad apple who go themselves banned.

This is the reason why the US government had to create the ID for people with similar names to those on the do not fly list so they can book.
 
johns624
Posts: 2171
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Mom, daughter kicked off Air Canada plane, not told they're banned from airline until it was too late

Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:53 pm

alo2yyz wrote:
And this is ridiculous - a surface-mailed letter to one's home in YUL does no good if you're sitting in OTP.
Where would you suggest that they mail it? Legal notices go to legal addresses. How were they to know what their itinerary was?
 
YULACYYZ
Posts: 40
Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:00 pm

Re: Mom, daughter kicked off Air Canada plane, not told they're banned from airline until it was too late

Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:13 pm

Gulfstream500 wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
Well people need to learn How to behave in public. If they hadn't behaved in a way that got them kicked off a flight earlier, they would would not have been denied boarding on another flight.


Uhh... the article says that the FA asked a member of the party to sit down, but the seat was assigned twice. Sounds like a coverup for an overbooking.

The FA asked her to leave the aircraft, but she refused. Then, she was escorted off of the aircraft by police. The airline cites the reason for them being kicked off of the aircraft being “failure to follow safety instructions (sitting down, according to the passenger), and verbal abuse towards the crew (saying that she can’t go back to her seat, according to the passenger).


I’d say that this is 100% the Air Canada’s fault!


And you know 100% nothing of what happened!

The flight wasn’t overbooked as there were empty seats. The mother sat elsewhere being told by the crew or of her own accord, likely creating more of an issue.

And she went to the bathroom, while being told to get to her seat while the cabin was being prepared for takeoff.

A post ban after being kicked out of a flight is a serious issue and not taken lightly in regards to bad PR and bad press. And let me ask you this, why isn’t there any other videos from other passengers about this. Isn’t because they were so out of line and everyone was relieved to see these two being kicked off!

Air Canada can only check the ban list while passengers are checking in with ID.

And for those who are concerned about her buying more tickets and ending up on Air Canada again, they likely use the Austrian or Lufthansa system which all 3 airlines are Star Alliance members, and before paying she did not read the fact that the flight was operated by AC metal.

Canadians like to complain about the snail mail. However a notice of the ban would have to be send in writing and from the airline legal department.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1749
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Mom, daughter kicked off Air Canada plane, not told they're banned from airline until it was too late

Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:23 pm

johns624 wrote:
alo2yyz wrote:
And this is ridiculous - a surface-mailed letter to one's home in YUL does no good if you're sitting in OTP.
Where would you suggest that they mail it? Legal notices go to legal addresses. How were they to know what their itinerary was?


How was who to know what their itinerary was? AC? I suppose the better question is how would AC not know that they had left the pax in OTP?

Also, how did they get their legal mailing address? Credit card billing address? What if it was done through a TA/OTA?

Either way, the ethics of disembarking a connecting pax in a third country stink. What's the point of having a TA++ JV if basic information like a ban isn't being shared? More to the point, what if this was a non-EU pax being dumped in an EU airport? Or, for that matter, a connecting Canadian citizen being dumped in a third country anywhere in the world? The "punishment" insofar as airlines are entities de facto capable of defining "crimes" and trying and punishing pax for them, does not fit the "crime".

I'm sure there's two sides to every tale, but if you're stranding connecting passengers in third countries in situations in which they haven't broken the law/warrant an arrest (but might very well end up breaking laws by being stranded there), there's some serious questions to be asked about the amount of power being given to FAs and captains.

I suppose it's time for another new regulation in this heavily regulated industry: if a pax hasn't committed a crime, airlines should be obligated to rebook them on the next flight.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1749
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Mom, daughter kicked off Air Canada plane, not told they're banned from airline until it was too late

Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:30 pm

YULACYYZ wrote:
Gulfstream500 wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
Well people need to learn How to behave in public. If they hadn't behaved in a way that got them kicked off a flight earlier, they would would not have been denied boarding on another flight.


Uhh... the article says that the FA asked a member of the party to sit down, but the seat was assigned twice. Sounds like a coverup for an overbooking.

The FA asked her to leave the aircraft, but she refused. Then, she was escorted off of the aircraft by police. The airline cites the reason for them being kicked off of the aircraft being “failure to follow safety instructions (sitting down, according to the passenger), and verbal abuse towards the crew (saying that she can’t go back to her seat, according to the passenger).


I’d say that this is 100% the Air Canada’s fault!


And you know 100% nothing of what happened!

The flight wasn’t overbooked as there were empty seats. The mother sat elsewhere being told by the crew or of her own accord, likely creating more of an issue.

And she went to the bathroom, while being told to get to her seat while the cabin was being prepared for takeoff.

A post ban after being kicked out of a flight is a serious issue and not taken lightly in regards to bad PR and bad press. And let me ask you this, why isn’t there any other videos from other passengers about this. Isn’t because they were so out of line and everyone was relieved to see these two being kicked off!

Air Canada can only check the ban list while passengers are checking in with ID.

And for those who are concerned about her buying more tickets and ending up on Air Canada again, they likely use the Austrian or Lufthansa system which all 3 airlines are Star Alliance members, and before paying she did not read the fact that the flight was operated by AC metal.

Canadians like to complain about the snail mail. However a notice of the ban would have to be send in writing and from the airline legal department.


Does AC treat it as a serious matter? We've just had a case of a pax - accused of being verbally abusive - being de-boarded in a third country (ie - country they had no intention of visiting)that they may not be a citizen of/have no right to enter, because AC can't share travel ban information with a metal-neutral JV partner.

As far as I can tell, no crimes have been committed and no charges pressed. Sounds like a case of FA vs pax testimony at best. Why isn't AC pressing charges?

I don't know about serious; AC seems pretty damn cavalier to me.
Last edited by ElPistolero on Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Redd
Posts: 985
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:40 am

Re: Mom, daughter kicked off Air Canada plane, not told they're banned from airline until it was too late

Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:31 pm

johns624 wrote:
alo2yyz wrote:
And this is ridiculous - a surface-mailed letter to one's home in YUL does no good if you're sitting in OTP.
Where would you suggest that they mail it? Legal notices go to legal addresses. How were they to know what their itinerary was?


This wonderful thing called e-mail.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1749
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Mom, daughter kicked off Air Canada plane, not told they're banned from airline until it was too late

Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:37 pm

Redd wrote:
johns624 wrote:
alo2yyz wrote:
And this is ridiculous - a surface-mailed letter to one's home in YUL does no good if you're sitting in OTP.
Where would you suggest that they mail it? Legal notices go to legal addresses. How were they to know what their itinerary was?


This wonderful thing called e-mail.


Evidently emails are only ok for issuing tickets and reciepts.
 
johns624
Posts: 2171
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Mom, daughter kicked off Air Canada plane, not told they're banned from airline until it was too late

Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:52 pm

Romania is a 3rd world country? People aren't banned from an airline because they wouldn't sit down. There's MUCH more to this story than they are saying...
 
YULACYYZ
Posts: 40
Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:00 pm

Re: Mom, daughter kicked off Air Canada plane, not told they're banned from airline until it was too late

Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:58 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
YULACYYZ wrote:
Gulfstream500 wrote:

Uhh... the article says that the FA asked a member of the party to sit down, but the seat was assigned twice. Sounds like a coverup for an overbooking.

The FA asked her to leave the aircraft, but she refused. Then, she was escorted off of the aircraft by police. The airline cites the reason for them being kicked off of the aircraft being “failure to follow safety instructions (sitting down, according to the passenger), and verbal abuse towards the crew (saying that she can’t go back to her seat, according to the passenger).


I’d say that this is 100% the Air Canada’s fault!


And you know 100% nothing of what happened!

The flight wasn’t overbooked as there were empty seats. The mother sat elsewhere being told by the crew or of her own accord, likely creating more of an issue.

And she went to the bathroom, while being told to get to her seat while the cabin was being prepared for takeoff.

A post ban after being kicked out of a flight is a serious issue and not taken lightly in regards to bad PR and bad press. And let me ask you this, why isn’t there any other videos from other passengers about this. Isn’t because they were so out of line and everyone was relieved to see these two being kicked off!

Air Canada can only check the ban list while passengers are checking in with ID.

And for those who are concerned about her buying more tickets and ending up on Air Canada again, they likely use the Austrian or Lufthansa system which all 3 airlines are Star Alliance members, and before paying she did not read the fact that the flight was operated by AC metal.

Canadians like to complain about the snail mail. However a notice of the ban would have to be send in writing and from the airline legal department.


Does AC treat it as a serious matter? We've just had a case of a pax - accused of being verbally abusive - being de-boarded in a third country (ie - country they had no intention of visiting)that they may not be a citizen of/have no right to enter, because AC can't share travel ban information with a metal-neutral JV partner.

As far as I can tell, no crimes have been committed and no charges pressed. Sounds like a case of FA vs pax testimony at best. Why isn't AC pressing charges?

I don't know about serious; AC seems pretty damn cavalier to me.


I’m pretty sure that the decision of asking her to deplane, was the captain at the end. She refused to leave and the police was called.

The ban was issued by AC after reviewing this case, and there are no reasons to charge her, as they are done with her. It’s up to her to try and lift this ban, and I am sure that she query about doing it. However, it wouldn’t surprised me that she really doesn’t have a case. This is why she went to press and bashing the airline.

If she feels so badly done, sue them!

The IT systems within the Star Alliance members, do not have all the flexibility that would really make it a truly seamless travel experience. Like tickets issued by a specific carrier, can only be refunded by that carrier for example. Also, she is banned from AC not any other airlines.

Likely born Romanian (the mother) with dual Canadian citizenship, she was still part of the EU, and being stranded in FRA is not the worst thing that can happened to you.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1749
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Mom, daughter kicked off Air Canada plane, not told they're banned from airline until it was too late

Sat Aug 17, 2019 2:03 pm

johns624 wrote:
Romania is a 3rd world country? People aren't banned from an airline because they wouldn't sit down. There's MUCH more to this story than they are saying...


No, but Germany is a third country for a passenger travelling from Romania to Canada. The difference between a third country and a third world country is evident to anyone who understand English.

If there's "more" to this story, AC should be pressing charges and having people arrested, instead of stranding them in 3rd countries. Don't want them to fly AC? Rebook them on another airline out if FRA, then take them to the cleaners.

Whatever "more" there is, os as suspect as the pax claims. All we know is that abusive language and behaviour that was evidently of no concern to the police involved has resulted in a pax eventually getting stuck in a 3rd country. The only reasons that should happen is if there are legal or safety considerations. In this case, there were neither.

Like I said, the ethics stink.
 
Lrockeagle
Posts: 143
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2004 1:40 am

Re: Mom, daughter kicked off Air Canada plane, not told they're banned from airline until it was too late

Sat Aug 17, 2019 2:09 pm

ordbosewr wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
So how come they sold the second ticket without knowing the ID of the passengers.

Effectively, they sold a ticket not knowing that they were then going to refuse to provide the service.


How does AC know it is the same person on their no-fly list? I have a fairly common name (full name, including middle), I have worked at a 40K company and had 2 other people with the exact same full name. If one of us was banned from flying AC and we alll booked tickets, how does AC know until I show an ID which one I am specifically to allow or deny me.
I can see it now, AC bans someone from booking a flight and people go crazy because someone else happened to have the same name as one bad apple who go themselves banned.

This is the reason why the US government had to create the ID for people with similar names to those on the do not fly list so they can book.

Birthday
Lrockeagle
14 years ago

I got $20 says AA takes their 787's with GE powerplants. Just a hunch. Any takers?
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1749
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Mom, daughter kicked off Air Canada plane, not told they're banned from airline until it was too late

Sat Aug 17, 2019 2:31 pm

YULACYYZ wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
YULACYYZ wrote:

And you know 100% nothing of what happened!

The flight wasn’t overbooked as there were empty seats. The mother sat elsewhere being told by the crew or of her own accord, likely creating more of an issue.

And she went to the bathroom, while being told to get to her seat while the cabin was being prepared for takeoff.

A post ban after being kicked out of a flight is a serious issue and not taken lightly in regards to bad PR and bad press. And let me ask you this, why isn’t there any other videos from other passengers about this. Isn’t because they were so out of line and everyone was relieved to see these two being kicked off!

Air Canada can only check the ban list while passengers are checking in with ID.

And for those who are concerned about her buying more tickets and ending up on Air Canada again, they likely use the Austrian or Lufthansa system which all 3 airlines are Star Alliance members, and before paying she did not read the fact that the flight was operated by AC metal.

Canadians like to complain about the snail mail. However a notice of the ban would have to be send in writing and from the airline legal department.


Does AC treat it as a serious matter? We've just had a case of a pax - accused of being verbally abusive - being de-boarded in a third country (ie - country they had no intention of visiting)that they may not be a citizen of/have no right to enter, because AC can't share travel ban information with a metal-neutral JV partner.

As far as I can tell, no crimes have been committed and no charges pressed. Sounds like a case of FA vs pax testimony at best. Why isn't AC pressing charges?

I don't know about serious; AC seems pretty damn cavalier to me.


I’m pretty sure that the decision of asking her to deplane, was the captain at the end. She refused to leave and the police was called.

The ban was issued by AC after reviewing this case, and there are no reasons to charge her, as they are done with her. It’s up to her to try and lift this ban, and I am sure that she query about doing it. However, it wouldn’t surprised me that she really doesn’t have a case. This is why she went to press and bashing the airline.

If she feels so badly done, sue them!

The IT systems within the Star Alliance members, do not have all the flexibility that would really make it a truly seamless travel experience. Like tickets issued by a specific carrier, can only be refunded by that carrier for example. Also, she is banned from AC not any other airlines.

Likely born Romanian (the mother) with dual Canadian citizenship, she was still part of the EU, and being stranded in FRA is not the worst thing that can happened to you.


EU citizenship is irrelevant. The pax were lucky it happened in the EU, but situations like this should never come down to luck. This could happen to a pax transiting from AI to AC in PVD. Then what?

I have no sympathy for the pax. However, this goes way beyond the pax. There is something deeply discomforting about the fact that airlines can strand pax in 3rd countries for little more than being on the wrong end of the "rude" spectrum.

There needs to be a threshold for this type of behaviour from airlines, and it's got to go beyond "he said, she said". I don't think the pa even knows if she does or does not have a case yet, so that's a bit premature.

The absence of videos is moot. I'm surely not the only one whose seen that Josh Cahill YouTube video where the AC flight crew threatened/intimidated a vblogger rather - dare I say- rudely (to the extent that Josh considered disembarking) before changing tack when they realized he had AC HQ clearance? Having watched that video, I sure as hell wouldn't film anything involving AC cabin crew. That video provides its own perspective of AC cabin crew attitudes. Maybe this incident is reflective of that?

It's also got to go beyond not-fit-for-purpose IT systems being invoked as a get-out-of-jail card. If AC wants to profit from JVs, why isn't it willing to invest in such basic aspects as ensuring that If you want to ban pax, make sure they don't get stranded in 3rd countries. That aspect just strikes me as penny-pinching - no more and no less.
 
Antarius
Posts: 1652
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Mom, daughter kicked off Air Canada plane, not told they're banned from airline until it was too late

Sat Aug 17, 2019 2:40 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Romania is a 3rd world country? People aren't banned from an airline because they wouldn't sit down. There's MUCH more to this story than they are saying...


No, but Germany is a third country for a passenger travelling from Romania to Canada. The difference between a third country and a third world country is evident to anyone who understand English.

If there's "more" to this story, AC should be pressing charges and having people arrested, instead of stranding them in 3rd countries. Don't want them to fly AC? Rebook them on another airline out if FRA, then take them to the cleaners.

Whatever "more" there is, os as suspect as the pax claims. All we know is that abusive language and behaviour that was evidently of no concern to the police involved has resulted in a pax eventually getting stuck in a 3rd country. The only reasons that should happen is if there are legal or safety considerations. In this case, there were neither.

Like I said, the ethics stink.


Why would AC press charges? They kicked her off and banned her. That is all AC wanted to do. The next time she tries to fly AC, they refused travel.

No idea where the hyperbole of pressing additional charges comes from.

My question is - if the same pax tried to book a flight on AC (standalone), would they be rejected at the time of booking, between booking and travel or at the gate? If #3 it seems more like a IT and systems issue.

The reason I am skeptical is that it is pretty hard to get banned by an airline, almost as hard as getting a fine in the NBA for flopping. It is possible to get kicked off due to someone on a power trip, sure, but subsequently banned? Not so easy.

So investing a lot of money for this happening rarely, not worth it.
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD CVG PHL MAD ORY CDG SLC SJU BQN MHT YYZ STS BIS DOH BLR MAA KTM
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1749
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Mom, daughter kicked off Air Canada plane, not told they're banned from airline until it was too late

Sat Aug 17, 2019 2:51 pm

Antarius wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Romania is a 3rd world country? People aren't banned from an airline because they wouldn't sit down. There's MUCH more to this story than they are saying...


No, but Germany is a third country for a passenger travelling from Romania to Canada. The difference between a third country and a third world country is evident to anyone who understand English.

If there's "more" to this story, AC should be pressing charges and having people arrested, instead of stranding them in 3rd countries. Don't want them to fly AC? Rebook them on another airline out if FRA, then take them to the cleaners.

Whatever "more" there is, os as suspect as the pax claims. All we know is that abusive language and behaviour that was evidently of no concern to the police involved has resulted in a pax eventually getting stuck in a 3rd country. The only reasons that should happen is if there are legal or safety considerations. In this case, there were neither.

Like I said, the ethics stink.


Why would AC press charges? They kicked her off and banned her. That is all AC wanted to do. The next time she tries to fly AC, they refused travel.

No idea where the hyperbole of pressing additional charges comes from.

My question is - if the same pax tried to book a flight on AC (standalone), would they be rejected at the time of booking, between booking and travel or at the gate? If #3 it seems more like a IT and systems issue.

The reason I am skeptical is that it is pretty hard to get banned by an airline, almost as hard as getting a fine in the NBA for flopping.


Therein lies the problem. AC "banned" then and was done with it. And the pax got stranded in a third country entirely as a result of AC actions and inactions.

Never been a fan of this judge, jury, executioner power given to airlines, but this situation is impressively ridiculous. It's not a question of charges or additional charges. It's a question of setting a threshold for these types of actions. It seems to be a "Pax said, FA said" situation - and whatever the merits of AC's case, that shouldn't be enough to warrant stranding people in 3rd countries.

The simpler / more logical / ethical solution here would be to rebook the pax on another airline, and go to court to reclaim the difference. Seems a lot more reasonable than stranding someone in a 3rd country.
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 15393
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

Re: Mom, daughter kicked off Air Canada plane, not told they're banned from airline until it was too late

Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:14 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
Therein lies the problem. AC "banned" then and was done with it. And the pax got stranded in a third country entirely as a result of AC actions and inactions.

Never been a fan of this judge, jury, executioner power given to airlines, but this situation is impressively ridiculous. It's not a question of charges or additional charges. It's a question of setting a threshold for these types of actions. It seems to be a "Pax said, FA said" situation - and whatever the merits of AC's case, that shouldn't be enough to warrant stranding people in 3rd countries.

The simpler / more logical / ethical solution here would be to rebook the pax on another airline, and go to court to reclaim the difference. Seems a lot more reasonable than stranding someone in a 3rd country.



But isn’t the third country the FIRST place they attempted to board an AC flight on their attempted return? I don’t see the problem if that’s the case; AC couldn’t have verified they were the same people who they’d banned until presenting themselves for the flight, regardless of where they’d originated on other connecting carriers that day.

Also, your “ethical” solution would require AC to purchase tickets on another carrier that would cost far more than the value of the ticket for AC’s portion, not to mention that since it was booked on LH stock, LH has the money, not AC, and they would only get the money from LH after pulling that flight coupon for travel.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1749
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Mom, daughter kicked off Air Canada plane, not told they're banned from airline until it was too late

Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:25 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
Antarius wrote:

Why would AC press charges? They kicked her off and banned her. That is all AC wanted to do. The next time she tries to fly AC, they refused travel.

No idea where the hyperbole of pressing additional charges comes from.

My question is - if the same pax tried to book a flight on AC (standalone), would they be rejected at the time of booking, between booking and travel or at the gate? If #3 it seems more like a IT and systems issue.

The reason I am skeptical is that it is pretty hard to get banned by an airline, almost as hard as getting a fine in the NBA for flopping.


Therein lies the problem. AC "banned" then and was done with it. And the pax got stranded in a third country entirely as a result of AC actions and inactions.

Never been a fan of this judge, jury, executioner power given to airlines, but this situation is impressively ridiculous. It's not a question of charges or additional charges. It's a question of setting a threshold for these types of actions. It seems to be a "Pax said, FA said" situation - and whatever the merits of AC's case, that shouldn't be enough to warrant stranding people in 3rd countries.

The simpler / more logical / ethical solution here would be to rebook the pax on another airline, and go to court to reclaim the difference. Seems a lot more reasonable than stranding someone in a 3rd country.



But isn’t the third country the FIRST place they attempted to board an AC flight on their attempted return? I don’t see the problem if that’s the case; AC couldn’t have verified they were the same people who they’d banned until presenting themselves for the flight, regardless of where they’d originated on other connecting carriers that day.


They shouldn't have been allowed to board the first flight either. AC's inaction led to that.

Either way, I can see the CBSA (or CBP, for that matter) giving very short shrift to this explanation if they find a non-Canadian citizen (or non- US citizen) pax dumped in their country because AC didn't bother telling the other airline that said pax wouldn't be allowed to board their connecting flight out of the country.

Seems to me as though AC is playing fast and loose with much bigger issues by simply washing its hands of pax. Like I said, the simple issue would have been to rebook on other metal, then take them to court for the difference in cost. "Legal" etc etc. After all, this "ban" must have a legal leg to stand on. Or is that not a requirement?
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 15393
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

Re: Mom, daughter kicked off Air Canada plane, not told they're banned from airline until it was too late

Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:40 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
They shouldn't have been allowed to board the first flight either. AC's inaction led to that.


How would you expect AC to prevent someone from boarding a flight on another airline, exactly?

There are no bigger issues. AC doesn’t want their business, and declined to board them. Sometimes things really ARE that simple, and that’s the case here. Your proposal would have required AC extra time and money, followed by spending even more money taking them to court to recover costs no court would grant because AC had no legal obligation to provide them with travel on another carrier in the first place.

I keep reading your solution as saying, “Well, it would be nice if AC had done this...” but the fact is they weren’t required to.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1749
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Mom, daughter kicked off Air Canada plane, not told they're banned from airline until it was too late

Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:59 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
They shouldn't have been allowed to board the first flight either. AC's inaction led to that.


How would you expect AC to prevent someone from boarding a flight on another airline, exactly?

There are no bigger issues. AC doesn’t want their business, and declined to board them. Sometimes things really ARE that simple, and that’s the case here. Your proposal would have required AC extra time and money, followed by spending even more money taking them to court to recover costs no court would grant because AC had no legal obligation to provide them with travel on another carrier in the first place.

I keep reading your solution as saying, “Well, it would be nice if AC had done this...” but the fact is they weren’t required to.


By telling the other airline they wouldn't be able to complete their journey. Which tends to be something of a big deal on international itineraries.

As to bigger issues, I suppose those of us who travel internationally understand that immigration authorities do not take kindly to non-citizens being stranded in their countries (just ask the US CBP). The pax didn't know they were banned, so they aren't at fault. LH didn't know, so they aren't at fault. Prima facie, the fault lies with AC here for failing to communicate the ban to both other parties.

The cost to airline is immaterial here. German immigration would be within their rights to force AC or LH to carry the pax to OTP or YUL at the airlines cost, with no recourse for the airline. Hence check-in travel document/visa checks around the world. If the ban has a legal leg to stand on in Canada (ie pax wrongdoing) I doubt cost recovery will be denied. Either way, arbitrarily banning pax in situations where they haven't committed a crime - or more importantly, just on FA say-so - resulting in them being stranded in a 3rd country should never be a cost-free course of action.
Last edited by ElPistolero on Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
bennett123
Posts: 8917
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: Mom, daughter kicked off Air Canada plane, not told they're banned from airline until it was too late

Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:01 pm

I thought that you provided your passport number during the booking process.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1749
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Mom, daughter kicked off Air Canada plane, not told they're banned from airline until it was too late

Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:03 pm

bennett123 wrote:
I thought that you provided your passport number during the booking process.


Definitely for check-in process in international itineraries.
 
johns624
Posts: 2171
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Mom, daughter kicked off Air Canada plane, not told they're banned from airline until it was too late

Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:06 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Romania is a 3rd world country? People aren't banned from an airline because they wouldn't sit down. There's MUCH more to this story than they are saying...


No, but Germany is a third country for a passenger travelling from Romania to Canada. The difference between a third country and a third world country is evident to anyone who understand English.

Now you're being disingenuous. I should have quoted you directly because in a prior post, you did say "third world". That post, as anyone can see, has now been edited.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 21228
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Mom, daughter kicked off Air Canada plane, not told they're banned from airline until it was too late

Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:06 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Romania is a 3rd world country? People aren't banned from an airline because they wouldn't sit down. There's MUCH more to this story than they are saying...


No, but Germany is a third country for a passenger travelling from Romania to Canada. The difference between a third country and a third world country is evident to anyone who understand English.

If there's "more" to this story, AC should be pressing charges and having people arrested, instead of stranding them in 3rd countries. Don't want them to fly AC? Rebook them on another airline out if FRA, then take them to the cleaners.

Whatever "more" there is, os as suspect as the pax claims. All we know is that abusive language and behaviour that was evidently of no concern to the police involved has resulted in a pax eventually getting stuck in a 3rd country. The only reasons that should happen is if there are legal or safety considerations. In this case, there were neither.

Like I said, the ethics stink.

How does involving the legal system improve any aspect of this situation?

You don't have an innate right to AC's service, it's a commercial matter, not criminal.

Besides, being banned from flights is a better outcome than having a criminal record the rest of your life.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
bennett123
Posts: 8917
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: Mom, daughter kicked off Air Canada plane, not told they're banned from airline until it was too late

Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:12 pm

If the passport number is recorded when the ticket is purchased, then surely the booking system should be able to flag up a warning if it matches with someone who has been banned.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 17939
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Mom, daughter kicked off Air Canada plane, not told they're banned from airline until it was too late

Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:17 pm

Revelation wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Romania is a 3rd world country? People aren't banned from an airline because they wouldn't sit down. There's MUCH more to this story than they are saying...


No, but Germany is a third country for a passenger travelling from Romania to Canada. The difference between a third country and a third world country is evident to anyone who understand English.

If there's "more" to this story, AC should be pressing charges and having people arrested, instead of stranding them in 3rd countries. Don't want them to fly AC? Rebook them on another airline out if FRA, then take them to the cleaners.

Whatever "more" there is, os as suspect as the pax claims. All we know is that abusive language and behaviour that was evidently of no concern to the police involved has resulted in a pax eventually getting stuck in a 3rd country. The only reasons that should happen is if there are legal or safety considerations. In this case, there were neither.

Like I said, the ethics stink.

How does involving the legal system improve any aspect of this situation?

You don't have an innate right to AC's service, it's a commercial matter, not criminal.

Besides, being banned from flights is a better outcome than having a criminal record the rest of your life.

The contract of carriage allows denying service. Far simpler than an expensive legal matter.

Some people aren't worth it as customers.

Someone asked about the passport number not being flagged. Well, every ten years those passports are updated... I've had new passports that didn't match the old numbers.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1749
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Mom, daughter kicked off Air Canada plane, not told they're banned from airline until it was too late

Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:25 pm

Revelation wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Romania is a 3rd world country? People aren't banned from an airline because they wouldn't sit down. There's MUCH more to this story than they are saying...


No, but Germany is a third country for a passenger travelling from Romania to Canada. The difference between a third country and a third world country is evident to anyone who understand English.

If there's "more" to this story, AC should be pressing charges and having people arrested, instead of stranding them in 3rd countries. Don't want them to fly AC? Rebook them on another airline out if FRA, then take them to the cleaners.

Whatever "more" there is, os as suspect as the pax claims. All we know is that abusive language and behaviour that was evidently of no concern to the police involved has resulted in a pax eventually getting stuck in a 3rd country. The only reasons that should happen is if there are legal or safety considerations. In this case, there were neither.

Like I said, the ethics stink.

How does involving the legal system improve any aspect of this situation?

You don't have an innate right to AC's service, it's a commercial matter, not criminal.

Besides, being banned from flights is a better outcome than having a criminal record the rest of your life.


Indeed, but AC does not have an innate right to strand you in a 3rd country either. Ban or origin - by all means. At some point, you have to set a threshold for stranding passengers in places they don't belong to and have no intention of visiting. If you do decide that's the best course of action, you can't put them in a position where they might inadvertently end up violating local immigration.

As to having a criminal record, strikes me as a moot point. If a crime has been committed, should it really be at the airline's discretion to determine whether the law should be enforced or not? Point being - a criminal record typically involves committing a crime.

That said, some type of "crime" has apparently been committed. After all, banning the pax was punishment for some type of crime. Is it not?
 
greenair727
Posts: 1269
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

Re: Mom, daughter kicked off Air Canada plane, not told they're banned from airline until it was too late

Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:27 pm

HBJZA wrote:
Next time she will not be disruptive and will not be kikked off flights. I have no mercy for her whatsoever!


Of course, you don't know what really happened....I fly lots of different airlines and the only one worldwide that I have personally banned--meaning I would never fly (even on a code share)--and no matter how much cheaper than other airlines--is AC. So I suspect there is far more to this story than them simply being disruptive--and therefore forever banned.
 
YULACYYZ
Posts: 40
Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:00 pm

Re: Mom, daughter kicked off Air Canada plane, not told they're banned from airline until it was too late

Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:28 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
They shouldn't have been allowed to board the first flight either. AC's inaction led to that.


How would you expect AC to prevent someone from boarding a flight on another airline, exactly?

There are no bigger issues. AC doesn’t want their business, and declined to board them. Sometimes things really ARE that simple, and that’s the case here. Your proposal would have required AC extra time and money, followed by spending even more money taking them to court to recover costs no court would grant because AC had no legal obligation to provide them with travel on another carrier in the first place.

I keep reading your solution as saying, “Well, it would be nice if AC had done this...” but the fact is they weren’t required to.


By telling the other airline they wouldn't be able to complete their journey. Which tends to be something of a big deal on international itineraries.

As to bigger issues, I suppose those of us who travel internationally understand that immigration authorities do not take kindly to non-citizens being stranded in their countries (just ask the US CBP). The pax didn't know they were banned, so they aren't at fault. LH didn't know, so they aren't at fault. Prima facie, the fault lies with AC here for failing to communicate the ban to both other parties.

The cost to airline is immaterial here. German immigration would be within their rights to force AC or LH to carry the pax to OTP or YUL at the airlines cost, with no recourse for the airline. Hence check-in travel document/visa checks around the world. If the ban has a legal leg to stand on in Canada (ie pax wrongdoing) I doubt cost recovery will be denied. Either way, arbitrarily banning pax in situations where they haven't committed a crime - or more importantly, just on FA say-so - resulting in them being stranded in a 3rd country should never be a cost-free course of action.


Immigration authorities can only force airlines to carry passengers without proper travel documents and pay a fine. This is not the case, as she is still within the EU and yes it is relevant.

You know, I hate to put like this, but it is quite simple; my aircraft, my property, there are rules and regulations, you've been asked and given a choice. She made hers. Life is all about choices and I have learned that "you never argue with the nurses, as they have the needle in their hands". Like I've said, if you feel so strongly about an issue, you take it further.

I do not believe that the crew, would put their jobs on the line without merits and for Air Canada to banned arbitrarily. And in any case, I am sick and tired of people entitlements in regards to the airlines obligations IE to be ethical as you mentioned. Their only obligations is too carry you from A to B.

We will never know, as the airline is bound by privacy laws, but I can assure you, that internally they have the whole picture!
 
bennett123
Posts: 8917
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: Mom, daughter kicked off Air Canada plane, not told they're banned from airline until it was too late

Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:40 pm

Two points;

The communication saying they were banned was posted to Canada. Having off loaded them in Rumania, surely something should have been emailed or texted to them.

It is agreed that they did not sit in the assigned seats. Has AC disputed the customers account that someone else had been told to sit in that seat?.

Also somewhat surprising that an itinerary was booked which included a leg with AC and no one knew they were banned until check in at FRA.
 
kalvado
Posts: 1898
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Mom, daughter kicked off Air Canada plane, not told they're banned from airline until it was too late

Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:49 pm

Well, looks like this is the Star Alliance way of handling overbooking after all - use force and threats... At least these ladies didn't need emergency medical help after all.
 
Antarius
Posts: 1652
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Mom, daughter kicked off Air Canada plane, not told they're banned from airline until it was too late

Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:51 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
Revelation wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:

No, but Germany is a third country for a passenger travelling from Romania to Canada. The difference between a third country and a third world country is evident to anyone who understand English.

If there's "more" to this story, AC should be pressing charges and having people arrested, instead of stranding them in 3rd countries. Don't want them to fly AC? Rebook them on another airline out if FRA, then take them to the cleaners.

Whatever "more" there is, os as suspect as the pax claims. All we know is that abusive language and behaviour that was evidently of no concern to the police involved has resulted in a pax eventually getting stuck in a 3rd country. The only reasons that should happen is if there are legal or safety considerations. In this case, there were neither.

Like I said, the ethics stink.

How does involving the legal system improve any aspect of this situation?

You don't have an innate right to AC's service, it's a commercial matter, not criminal.

Besides, being banned from flights is a better outcome than having a criminal record the rest of your life.


Indeed, but AC does not have an innate right to strand you in a 3rd country either. Ban or origin - by all means. At some point, you have to set a threshold for stranding passengers in places they don't belong to and have no intention of visiting. If you do decide that's the best course of action, you can't put them in a position where they might inadvertently end up violating local immigration.

As to having a criminal record, strikes me as a moot point. If a crime has been committed, should it really be at the airline's discretion to determine whether the law should be enforced or not? Point being - a criminal record typically involves committing a crime.

That said, some type of "crime" has apparently been committed. After all, banning the pax was punishment for some type of crime. Is it not?


Except no. Lets assume a crime was committed. There is such a thing as pressing charges, where the wronged party, can either elect to or decline. AC likely wishes to just get rid of problematic customers and not waste time continuing to deal with them. So yes, it is their decision.

As for the last point, a passenger can be banned for several reasons that are not crimes. Restaurants have a right of service refusal; they can ban you for violating their rules (assuming their rules are not discriminatory etc). It is not a crime to wear a bathing suit, however many restaraunts will not allow you in in one; no crime. Similarly, there is no law against being loud and rude, an establishment doesn't need a crime to kick you out and keep you out.
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD CVG PHL MAD ORY CDG SLC SJU BQN MHT YYZ STS BIS DOH BLR MAA KTM
 
User avatar
DL757NYC
Posts: 289
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 6:07 am

Re: Mom, daughter kicked off Air Canada plane, not told they're banned from airline until it was too late

Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:53 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Romania is a 3rd world country? People aren't banned from an airline because they wouldn't sit down. There's MUCH more to this story than they are saying...


No, but Germany is a third country for a passenger travelling from Romania to Canada. The difference between a third country and a third world country is evident to anyone who understand English.

If there's "more" to this story, AC should be pressing charges and having people arrested, instead of stranding them in 3rd countries. Don't want them to fly AC? Rebook them on another airline out if FRA, then take them to the cleaners.

Whatever "more" there is, os as suspect as the pax claims. All we know is that abusive language and behaviour that was evidently of no concern to the police involved has resulted in a pax eventually getting stuck in a 3rd country. The only reasons that should happen is if there are legal or safety considerations. In this case, there were neither.

Like I said, the ethics stink.


He didn’t understand 3rd country thought it meant third world. Oh boy people have trouble reading now.
 
kalvado
Posts: 1898
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Mom, daughter kicked off Air Canada plane, not told they're banned from airline until it was too late

Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:04 pm

And for reference: Rule 75 of AC International Tariff:
In order to apply any ban, the Carrier will be required to communicate its decision to ban a passenger (and/or any decision to lift an existing ban), including said banned passenger’s personal information, to any other airline with whom the Carrier has a code-share agreement.

So AC explicitly violated its own rules...
 
Antarius
Posts: 1652
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Mom, daughter kicked off Air Canada plane, not told they're banned from airline until it was too late

Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:16 pm

kalvado wrote:
And for reference: Rule 75 of AC International Tariff:
In order to apply any ban, the Carrier will be required to communicate its decision to ban a passenger (and/or any decision to lift an existing ban), including said banned passenger’s personal information, to any other airline with whom the Carrier has a code-share agreement.

So AC explicitly violated its own rules...


The question is
1. Did AC not communicate it?
2. Did LH not receive it?
3. Did LH receive and not act?
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD CVG PHL MAD ORY CDG SLC SJU BQN MHT YYZ STS BIS DOH BLR MAA KTM
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1749
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Mom, daughter kicked off Air Canada plane, not told they're banned from airline until it was too late

Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:17 pm

YULACYYZ wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:

How would you expect AC to prevent someone from boarding a flight on another airline, exactly?

There are no bigger issues. AC doesn’t want their business, and declined to board them. Sometimes things really ARE that simple, and that’s the case here. Your proposal would have required AC extra time and money, followed by spending even more money taking them to court to recover costs no court would grant because AC had no legal obligation to provide them with travel on another carrier in the first place.

I keep reading your solution as saying, “Well, it would be nice if AC had done this...” but the fact is they weren’t required to.


By telling the other airline they wouldn't be able to complete their journey. Which tends to be something of a big deal on international itineraries.

As to bigger issues, I suppose those of us who travel internationally understand that immigration authorities do not take kindly to non-citizens being stranded in their countries (just ask the US CBP). The pax didn't know they were banned, so they aren't at fault. LH didn't know, so they aren't at fault. Prima facie, the fault lies with AC here for failing to communicate the ban to both other parties.

The cost to airline is immaterial here. German immigration would be within their rights to force AC or LH to carry the pax to OTP or YUL at the airlines cost, with no recourse for the airline. Hence check-in travel document/visa checks around the world. If the ban has a legal leg to stand on in Canada (ie pax wrongdoing) I doubt cost recovery will be denied. Either way, arbitrarily banning pax in situations where they haven't committed a crime - or more importantly, just on FA say-so - resulting in them being stranded in a 3rd country should never be a cost-free course of action.


Immigration authorities can only force airlines to carry passengers without proper travel documents and pay a fine. This is not the case, as she is still within the EU and yes it is relevant.

You know, I hate to put like this, but it is quite simple; my aircraft, my property, there are rules and regulations, you've been asked and given a choice. She made hers. Life is all about choices and I have learned that "you never argue with the nurses, as they have the needle in their hands". Like I've said, if you feel so strongly about an issue, you take it further.

I do not believe that the crew, would put their jobs on the line without merits and for Air Canada to banned arbitrarily. And in any case, I am sick and tired of people entitlements in regards to the airlines obligations IE to be ethical as you mentioned. Their only obligations is too carry you from A to B.

We will never know, as the airline is bound by privacy laws, but I can assure you, that internally they have the whole picture!


With current levels of regulatory capture in Canada (just ask the pilots about their vuews on flight duty rules), I'm not sure one can do anything without taking airlines to court. Until CBSA forces TC or CTA to act.

Your position seems to be that AC was ok doing this because it was (likely) an EU citizen in the EU. Are we to infer from that that AC would not do this to a pax connecting from AI at LHR? I'm not convinced that's the case. They're going to see the same message flash up on the screen - so we're probably down to a CSA exercising their discretion, rather than any thought out policy.

I don't think airlines self-exempting themselves from ethical considerations puts them above being criticized for questionable ethics. Dice it a million ways, stranding a connecting passenger in a third country simply doesn't pass the smell test for any reasonable person. In this case, it stinks.

Let me be clear here - I'm not contesting AC's right to decline service to an abusive pax. I am, however, contesting its non-challant attitude towards leaving a connecting pax stranded at the connection point because it couldn't be bothered enough to tell the pax or the airline in a reasonable amount of time.

Like I've suggested earlier, I don't think CBSA would take kindly to a non-Canadian pax coming off a CA flight to YUL connecting to Latin America on AC being stranded in YUL because AC decided to ban him but failed to inform him or CA. I'm just really not convinced that any of the explanations you put forward will carry water with them. I doubt they care about *A IT systems.

As to what AC knows or doesn't know, I don't know how any of it can be used to justify stranding connecting pax in 3rd countries. Seems like AC's attitude - and that of many here - is that this is a problem AC can offload to other countries.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 21228
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Mom, daughter kicked off Air Canada plane, not told they're banned from airline until it was too late

Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:20 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
That said, some type of "crime" has apparently been committed. After all, banning the pax was punishment for some type of crime. Is it not?

Nope, it simply was a denial of service, one that the pax agreed to by the contract of carriage.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1749
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Mom, daughter kicked off Air Canada plane, not told they're banned from airline until it was too late

Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:23 pm

johns624 wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Romania is a 3rd world country? People aren't banned from an airline because they wouldn't sit down. There's MUCH more to this story than they are saying...


No, but Germany is a third country for a passenger travelling from Romania to Canada. The difference between a third country and a third world country is evident to anyone who understand English.

Now you're being disingenuous. I should have quoted you directly because in a prior post, you did say "third world". That post, as anyone can see, has now been edited.


Nope. I'm not sure why you chose not to quote it. I couldn't have edited your quotes.

Either way, I'm savvy enough to know Romania is not - and never was - a third world country. It was, technically, a second world country. Don't blame me for your own hasty reading. The theme of all my posts is clear. It was always about 3rd countries.
 
User avatar
Vio
Posts: 1548
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2004 5:23 am

Re: Mom, daughter kicked off Air Canada plane, not told they're banned from airline until it was too late

Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:25 pm

I've been flying (for an airline) for almost three years. We have never kicked off a passenger while I was on duty. I've had the FA come to us and mention that she's keeping an eye out on "so and so" in seat "X". It's pretty serious when someone is removed from an aircraft. I'd be curious to find out what happened here, but we'll never have the full story.
Superior decisions reduce the need for superior skills.
 
SCQ83
Posts: 5338
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

Re: Mom, daughter kicked off Air Canada plane, not told they're banned from airline until it was too late

Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:30 pm

Considering the increasing abuse of force by FAs in power trips (David Dao), it should mandatory for FAs to carry a BWC (body-wear camera) like many police jurisdictions have now in the US.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1749
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Mom, daughter kicked off Air Canada plane, not told they're banned from airline until it was too late

Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:32 pm

Revelation wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
That said, some type of "crime" has apparently been committed. After all, banning the pax was punishment for some type of crime. Is it not?

Nope, it simply was a denial of service, one that the pax agreed to by the contract of carriage.


Fine, I'll bite. The CoC says the ban will be communicated. It was quite evidently not. Neither to the pax. Nor to the connecting airline. Where does that put us?

Either way, what are the broader ramifications of this? What happens to an unknowing pax arriving in SFO on SQ, connecting to a Canadian city on AC, but "declined" service on AC despite having all the appropriate travel documents and tickets? Have they now misrepresented their reason for entering the US, and more importantly, are SQ and AC under any legal obligations to fulfill their contract and take them to their destination or origin? Or are we to assume that US CBP will be ok with them hanging around till whenever they can afford a new ticket?

All seems a bit dicey to me. The simplisms and truisms that apply to domestic travel don't seem to apply here.
 
Antarius
Posts: 1652
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Mom, daughter kicked off Air Canada plane, not told they're banned from airline until it was too late

Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:34 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
Considering the increasing abuse of force by FAs in power trips (David Dao), it should mandatory for FAs to carry a BWC (body-wear camera) like many police jurisdictions have now in the US.


Lol seriously? How many hundred of millions of people fly each year and how many Dao like incidents are there?

This is called a gross overreaction. How about nezt, To avoid class of service downgrades, everyone should fly in Y.
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD CVG PHL MAD ORY CDG SLC SJU BQN MHT YYZ STS BIS DOH BLR MAA KTM
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1749
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Mom, daughter kicked off Air Canada plane, not told they're banned from airline until it was too late

Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:43 pm

Vio wrote:
I've been flying (for an airline) for almost three years. We have never kicked off a passenger while I was on duty. I've had the FA come to us and mention that she's keeping an eye out on "so and so" in seat "X". It's pretty serious when someone is removed from an aircraft. I'd be curious to find out what happened here, but we'll never have the full story.


If you say so. Not sure what airline you fly for, but AC's cabin crew has its own approach to pax. Josh Cahill's YouTube review of AC provides some degree of insight into it. He's a vblogger who got AC HQ clearance to film onboard. Apparently that wasn't communicated to the cabin crew, who adopted an aggressive posture - threats and all - that almost had him walk off the plane. They ended up backing off when it became clear he hadn't put a foot wrong, but the whole episode raises not a few questions about FA-pax interactions and power dynamics - especially in the North American context.

The video is literally titled "Threatened and Silenced by Air Canada"
(https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7vvB1s2Ia00)

Mind you, in his case, he got upgraded on the return for his troubles, so I'm sure he's over it.
Last edited by ElPistolero on Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos