Scotron12
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Costly fix required on all GP7200s entering US

Sun Aug 18, 2019 6:55 am

FAA are requiring all operators to inspect and repair all GP7200 engines on their A380s that enter US air space.

This stems from the AF incident in 2017 of which parts have recently been retrieved.

Costs will range anywhere from approx 1200 to over 700K depending on fix required.

Big bill for EK if any issues found!



https://samchui.com/2019/08/17/faa-issu ... Vj2PdDTU0O
Last edited by SQ22 on Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Gemuser
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Re: Costly fix required on all GP7200s entering US

Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:54 am

FAA are requiring all operators to inspect and repair all GP7200 engines on their A380s that enter US air space.


Where does it say that? It's not in the link provided.
It would be very unusual for ANY National Airworthiness authority to say that. As the A380 is manfactured in the EU, EASA is the responsiable authority. Granted the engines are made in the US [I assume] and the FAA has responsablaty for them but it would be an unusal way of doing it. The usual way would be for the FAA to advise EASA and all other national airworthines authorities, with all the relevent data, to issue there own AD. Threatening to ban an aircraft/engine type from US airspace would not go over well with other countries.
In reality I would expect an EASA & other countries ADs to be issued shorty, if not already issued. If the matter is urgent it is usual for other countries ADs to be issued at the same time or very shortly afterwards, the National Airworthiness Authorities DO talk to each all the time

Gemuser
 
LittleSprocket
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Re: Costly fix required on all GP7200s entering US

Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:01 pm

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guida ... -16-04.pdf

Is that the AD you are talking about OP?
 
Gemuser
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Re: Costly fix required on all GP7200s entering US

Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:48 pm

From the AD: (c) Applicability
"This AD applies to all Engine Alliance (EA) GP7270 and GP7277 model turbofan engines"

This is novel as there are NO GP7000 engines operating under FAA juristriction!

Gemuser
 
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Polot
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Re: Costly fix required on all GP7200s entering US

Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:52 pm

Gemuser wrote:
From the AD: (c) Applicability
"This AD applies to all Engine Alliance (EA) GP7270 and GP7277 model turbofan engines"

This is novel as there are NO GP7000 engines operating under FAA juristriction!

Gemuser

It’s not novel at all, you can find plenty of ADs for A380s/Engine Alliance engines (and others not found in the US) from the FAA despite none being registered in the US: https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policie ... irectives/

Still important to have the AD, as any potential future A380/EA operator in the US will need to prove that the AD has been met.
 
Gemuser
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Re: Costly fix required on all GP7200s entering US

Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:59 pm

Polot wrote:
Gemuser wrote:
From the AD: (c) Applicability
"This AD applies to all Engine Alliance (EA) GP7270 and GP7277 model turbofan engines"

This is novel as there are NO GP7000 engines operating under FAA juristriction!

Gemuser

It’s not novel at all, you can find plenty of ADs for A380s/Engine Alliance engines (and others not found in the US) from the FAA despite none being registered in the US: https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policie ... irectives/

Still important to have the AD, as any potential future A380/EA operator in the US will need to prove that the AD has been met.

I agree with that AD are important, what is novel is that it APPEARS to be done WITHOUT the agreement of EASA, which makes it moot unless and until EASA & the othr relevent authorities issue it.

Gemuser
 
LittleSprocket
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Re: Costly fix required on all GP7200s entering US

Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:08 pm

Gemuser wrote:
Polot wrote:
Gemuser wrote:
From the AD: (c) Applicability
"This AD applies to all Engine Alliance (EA) GP7270 and GP7277 model turbofan engines"

This is novel as there are NO GP7000 engines operating under FAA juristriction!

Gemuser

It’s not novel at all, you can find plenty of ADs for A380s/Engine Alliance engines (and others not found in the US) from the FAA despite none being registered in the US: https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policie ... irectives/


Still important to have the AD, as any potential future A380/EA operator in the US will need to prove that the AD has been met.

I agree with that AD are important, what is novel is that it APPEARS to be done WITHOUT the agreement of EASA, which makes it moot unless and until EASA & the othr relevent authorities issue it.

Gemuser


How does it make it mute? The FAA issues rules for all current and potentially future aircraft that may operate within its jurisdiction. There is no statute requirement that they wait for another agency to make a ruling. I forget where it said the FAA is subservient to foreign aviation safety agencies when it comes to American aviation regs...
 
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Revelation
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Re: Costly fix required on all GP7200s entering US

Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:29 pm

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... re-460317/ says:

"The manufacturer also developed a new design of the engine fan hub blade lock assembly that decreases the potential for damage to the engine fan hub assembly when it is disassembled," adds the US FAA.

For GP7200 engines with certain serial numbers the directive orders removal and replacement of the blade lock assembly by 1 September 2020.

So it sounds like some SNs require replacement whereas others just require inspection, but there is a hint that inspection may require fan hub replacement.

AD PDF says:

This AD requires, for certain GP7270 and GP7277 model turbofan engines, a one-time ECI of
the engine fan hub blade slot bottom and blade slot front edge for cracks and a visual inspection of
the engine fan hub assembly for damage. For all GP7270 and GP7277 model turbofan engines, this
AD also requires an independent inspection of the engine fan hub assembly
prior to the reassembly of
the engine fan hub blade lock assembly. For certain serial-numbered GP7270 and GP7277 model
turbofan engines, this AD requires replacement of the engine fan hub blade lock assembly with a part
eligible for installation.


Gemuser wrote:
I agree with that AD are important, what is novel is that it APPEARS to be done WITHOUT the agreement of EASA, which makes it moot unless and until EASA & the othr relevent authorities issue it.

Wow, so many knickers in a knot here.

Are we forgetting that this is an American made engine, thus FAA is its certification authority?

Reading the AD PDF linked above, it's clear the manufacturer provided information to FAA that FAA felt compelled to act upon.

Since the FAA issued AD 2019-03-04, the manufacturer determined the need to require an
independent inspection of the fan hub assembly for damage prior to the reassembly of the engine fan
hub blade lock assembly for all EA GP7270 and GP7277 model turbofan engines. The manufacturer
also developed a new design of the engine fan hub blade lock assembly that decreases the potential
for damage to the engine fan hub assembly when it is disassembled. The FAA is issuing this AD to
address the unsafe condition on these products.

It also gave some interesting cost figures:
  • Inspection: $2k
  • Replace hub lock: $30k
  • Replace fan hub assembly: $800k

Hopefully this turns out to be a low cost event for the operators, but most importantly, it avoids fan assemblies shattering on long TATL flights.

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DDR
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Re: Costly fix required on all GP7200s entering US

Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:57 pm

This is no different than Germany not allowing MAX aircraft to over fly its airspace on repositioning flights because Germany does not feel the aircraft are safe. The US appears to think these particular engines may not be safe so it does not want them flying over US territory until inspections have been completed.

This is not political just because it involves some peoples favorite European made plane. Everything is not always political or meant to hurt someone's feelings.
 
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PW100
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Re: Costly fix required on all GP7200s entering US

Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:58 pm

Revelation wrote:
Wow, so many knickers in a knot here.

Are we forgetting that this is an American made engine, thus FAA is its certification authority?

Reading the AD PDF linked above, it's clear the manufacturer provided information to FAA that FAA felt compelled to act upon.


Exactly!
FAA as certification authority should take the first step (issuing AD). Then EASA should follow suit, and just adopt the FAA AD in their system.

Here's the EASA AD page: https://ad.easa.europa.eu/
Do note that FAA AD's adopted keep their FAA number; EASA no longer bothers putting its own number on them.
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Costly fix required on all GP7200s entering US

Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:42 pm

Gemuser wrote:
Polot wrote:
Gemuser wrote:
From the AD: (c) Applicability
"This AD applies to all Engine Alliance (EA) GP7270 and GP7277 model turbofan engines"

This is novel as there are NO GP7000 engines operating under FAA juristriction!

Gemuser

It’s not novel at all, you can find plenty of ADs for A380s/Engine Alliance engines (and others not found in the US) from the FAA despite none being registered in the US: https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policie ... irectives/

Still important to have the AD, as any potential future A380/EA operator in the US will need to prove that the AD has been met.

I agree with that AD are important, what is novel is that it APPEARS to be done WITHOUT the agreement of EASA, which makes it moot unless and until EASA & the othr relevent authorities issue it.

Gemuser


Except that the engine design and manufacturing is American (Engine Alliance is a JV of Pratt & Whitney and GE Aviation, based at the headquarters of Pratt and Whitney headquarters), giving the FAA jurisdiction.
 
DarthLobster
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Re: Costly fix required on all GP7200s entering US

Sun Aug 18, 2019 6:07 pm

Now the FAA hunt the whale. Extinction seems imminent.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Costly fix required on all GP7200s entering US

Sun Aug 18, 2019 6:12 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
Gemuser wrote:
Polot wrote:
It’s not novel at all, you can find plenty of ADs for A380s/Engine Alliance engines (and others not found in the US) from the FAA despite none being registered in the US: https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policie ... irectives/

Still important to have the AD, as any potential future A380/EA operator in the US will need to prove that the AD has been met.

I agree with that AD are important, what is novel is that it APPEARS to be done WITHOUT the agreement of EASA, which makes it moot unless and until EASA & the othr relevent authorities issue it.

Gemuser


Except that the engine design and manufacturing is American (Engine Alliance is a JV of Pratt & Whitney and GE Aviation, based at the headquarters of Pratt and Whitney headquarters), giving the FAA jurisdiction.

We're debating over a weekend. EASA needs a day or two to review and issue their timeframe or decide the level of issue.

As noted, the engine is US certified. The FAA must review concerns.

Fan issues happen. I'm more familiar with surprisingly similar compressor issues on GE engines circa 1997 (I'm going from memory, so if I'm off a decade... Meh). :old:

The thread title makes it sound more dramatic than reality. The internet simply puts such issues immediately in public view. This has gone on forever and will go on. I've seen such issues on every engine, although most were inspect within 400 FC or 1,000 FH. If an engine hasn't yet had a problem, it will. The complexity of pushing materials and the difficulty of manufacturing won't go away.

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bob75013
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Dozens of Airbus A380s face urgent checks after cracked part dug from icel

Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:44 pm

Investigators probing an engine explosion on an Air France A380 in 2017 are studying a possible manufacturing flaw in a recently salvaged cracked part in a move likely to trigger urgent checks on dozens of Airbus superjumbos, people familiar with the matter said.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/exclusiv ... 48964.html
 
OmerMaz
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Re: Dozens of Airbus A380s face urgent checks after cracked part dug from icel

Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:54 pm

So it's seems that the problem itself is with the engine rather than airframe.
It's seems like since the begining of the decade, none of the major engine manufacturers can catch a break...a "short" list:

Nov 2010: RR Trent 900 explodes on board OF32, A380.
2013: icing issues with the GEnx1-B (Boeing 787).
2016-: corrosion in the RR Trent 1000 (B787).
2017: The icing in the PW GTF (A320neo family).
2017: Snags(?) In the RR Trent 7000 (A330N) prior to the flight tests.
2018: CFM 56-7B blows off onboard a WN 73G, in mid-air.
2019: GE9X ejecting parts on an engine run (B777X).

Did I miss anything?

Edit: the GTF
 
Bradin
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Re: Dozens of Airbus A380s face urgent checks after cracked part dug from icel

Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:23 pm

OmerMaz wrote:
So it's seems that the problem itself is with the engine rather than airframe.
It's seems like since the begining of the decade, none of the major engine manufacturers can catch a break...a "short" list:

Nov 2010: RR Trent 900 explodes on board OF32, A380.
2013: icing issues with the GEnx1-B (Boeing 787).
2016-: corrosion in the RR Trent 1000 (B787).
2017: The icing in the PW GTF (A320neo family).
2017: Snags(?) In the RR Trent 7000 (A330N) prior to the flight tests.
2018: CFM 56-7B blows off onboard a WN 73G, in mid-air.
2019: GE9X ejecting parts on an engine run (B777X).

Did I miss anything?

Edit: the GTF


Don't forget about British Airways Flight 38. The right engine icing conditions appeared on 17 January 2008 brought down a 777.
 
randomdude83
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Re: Dozens of Airbus A380s face urgent checks after cracked part dug from icel

Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:27 pm

OmerMaz wrote:
So it's seems that the problem itself is with the engine rather than airframe.
It's seems like since the begining of the decade, none of the major engine manufacturers can catch a break...a "short" list:

Nov 2010: RR Trent 900 explodes on board OF32, A380.
2013: icing issues with the GEnx1-B (Boeing 787).
2016-: corrosion in the RR Trent 1000 (B787).
2017: The icing in the PW GTF (A320neo family).
2017: Snags(?) In the RR Trent 7000 (A330N) prior to the flight tests.
2018: CFM 56-7B blows off onboard a WN 73G, in mid-air.
2019: GE9X ejecting parts on an engine run (B777X).

Did I miss anything?

Edit: the GTF


Maybe the environment is getting harsher and the engine designs and their supposed safe certifications aren't enough to take whats actually out there into account.

I also feel this constant drive for lower fuel might need to be put on hold and just use what works reliable first and find those savings somewhere else for a while. Engine development should take its sweet time instead of being driven by capitalist needs.
 
ikramerica
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Re: Dozens of Airbus A380s face urgent checks after cracked part dug from icel

Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:32 pm

randomdude83 wrote:
OmerMaz wrote:
So it's seems that the problem itself is with the engine rather than airframe.
It's seems like since the begining of the decade, none of the major engine manufacturers can catch a break...a "short" list:

Nov 2010: RR Trent 900 explodes on board OF32, A380.
2013: icing issues with the GEnx1-B (Boeing 787).
2016-: corrosion in the RR Trent 1000 (B787).
2017: The icing in the PW GTF (A320neo family).
2017: Snags(?) In the RR Trent 7000 (A330N) prior to the flight tests.
2018: CFM 56-7B blows off onboard a WN 73G, in mid-air.
2019: GE9X ejecting parts on an engine run (B777X).

Did I miss anything?

Edit: the GTF


Maybe the environment is getting harsher and the engine designs and their supposed safe certifications aren't enough to take whats actually out there into account.

I also feel this constant drive for lower fuel might need to be put on hold and just use what works reliable first and find those savings somewhere else for a while. Engine development should take its sweet time instead of being driven by capitalist needs.

Climate Change? That’s the answer?
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
OmerMaz
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Re: Dozens of Airbus A380s face urgent checks after cracked part dug from icel

Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:38 pm

randomdude83 wrote:
OmerMaz wrote:
So it's seems that the problem itself is with the engine rather than airframe.
It's seems like since the begining of the decade, none of the major engine manufacturers can catch a break...a "short" list:

Nov 2010: RR Trent 900 explodes on board OF32, A380.
2013: icing issues with the GEnx1-B (Boeing 787).
2016-: corrosion in the RR Trent 1000 (B787).
2017: The icing in the PW GTF (A320neo family).
2017: Snags(?) In the RR Trent 7000 (A330N) prior to the flight tests.
2018: CFM 56-7B blows off onboard a WN 73G, in mid-air.
2019: GE9X ejecting parts on an engine run (B777X).

Did I miss anything?

Edit: the GTF


Maybe the environment is getting harsher and the engine designs and their supposed safe certifications aren't enough to take whats actually out there into account.

I also feel this constant drive for lower fuel might need to be put on hold and just use what works reliable first and find those savings somewhere else for a while. Engine development should take its sweet time instead of being driven by capitalist needs.



Climate change for now is the culprit in the RR T1000 corrosion problems.
For the guy above, I was talking about events starting 2010, but yes.
The same happened during cruise on board a DL 77E on 26 November 2008.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Dozens of Airbus A380s face urgent checks after cracked part dug from icel

Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:39 pm

I'm still amazed that they send an expedition do find that piece of engine in the arctic ! Talk about dedication.
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cschleic
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Re: Dozens of Airbus A380s face urgent checks after cracked part dug from icel

Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:49 pm

ikramerica wrote:
randomdude83 wrote:
OmerMaz wrote:
So it's seems that the problem itself is with the engine rather than airframe.
It's seems like since the begining of the decade, none of the major engine manufacturers can catch a break...a "short" list:

Nov 2010: RR Trent 900 explodes on board OF32, A380.
2013: icing issues with the GEnx1-B (Boeing 787).
2016-: corrosion in the RR Trent 1000 (B787).
2017: The icing in the PW GTF (A320neo family).
2017: Snags(?) In the RR Trent 7000 (A330N) prior to the flight tests.
2018: CFM 56-7B blows off onboard a WN 73G, in mid-air.
2019: GE9X ejecting parts on an engine run (B777X).

Did I miss anything?

Edit: the GTF


Maybe the environment is getting harsher and the engine designs and their supposed safe certifications aren't enough to take whats actually out there into account.

I also feel this constant drive for lower fuel might need to be put on hold and just use what works reliable first and find those savings somewhere else for a while. Engine development should take its sweet time instead of being driven by capitalist needs.

Climate Change? That’s the answer?


Umm, maybe the comment means longer flights at higher and / or colder temperatures, higher power from less fuel, operating impact of design changes, etc?
 
Sooner787
Posts: 2565
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Re: Dozens of Airbus A380s face urgent checks after cracked part dug from icel

Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:55 pm

Aesma wrote:
I'm still amazed that they send an expedition do find that piece of engine in the arctic ! Talk about dedication.


I'm even more amazed the found those engine parts...
 
zuckie13
Posts: 187
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Re: Dozens of Airbus A380s face urgent checks after cracked part dug from icel

Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:05 pm

The metallurgy that's needed to make these current generation engines is just pushing the limits of what can currently be done. There is not a lot of margin so very minor defects seem to be having a big impact.
 
goosebayguy
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Re: Dozens of Airbus A380s face urgent checks after cracked part dug from icel

Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:03 pm

AN airframe is just an airframe but an engine is always the height of techology. Pretty much every airframe thorughout hidtory has had to eait for a new engine.
 
Antarius
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Re: Dozens of Airbus A380s face urgent checks after cracked part dug from icel

Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:30 pm

randomdude83 wrote:
OmerMaz wrote:
So it's seems that the problem itself is with the engine rather than airframe.
It's seems like since the begining of the decade, none of the major engine manufacturers can catch a break...a "short" list:

Nov 2010: RR Trent 900 explodes on board OF32, A380.
2013: icing issues with the GEnx1-B (Boeing 787).
2016-: corrosion in the RR Trent 1000 (B787).
2017: The icing in the PW GTF (A320neo family).
2017: Snags(?) In the RR Trent 7000 (A330N) prior to the flight tests.
2018: CFM 56-7B blows off onboard a WN 73G, in mid-air.
2019: GE9X ejecting parts on an engine run (B777X).

Did I miss anything?

Edit: the GTF


Maybe the environment is getting harsher and the engine designs and their supposed safe certifications aren't enough to take whats actually out there into account.

I also feel this constant drive for lower fuel might need to be put on hold and just use what works reliable first and find those savings somewhere else for a while. Engine development should take its sweet time instead of being driven by capitalist needs.


Engine reliability is at an all time high. Yes, there are occasional problems and teething issues, but let's not get ahead of ourselves with the "capitalist needs" rhetoric.

The Trent 800 was in service for twelve years (12!!) Before BA38. Exactly how much more sweet time would one need? Sometimes design flaws dont appear until the perfect set of circumstances, and that doesnt necessarily mean that anyone rushed anything.
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD CVG PHL MAD ORY CDG SLC SJU BQN MHT YYZ STS BIS DOH BLR KTM MFM MEX MSY BWI DEN
 
Antarius
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Re: Dozens of Airbus A380s face urgent checks after cracked part dug from icel

Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:35 pm

Aesma wrote:
I'm still amazed that they send an expedition do find that piece of engine in the arctic ! Talk about dedication.


It is necessary to prevent it from happening again. This level of dedication and effort is why flying is so safe.
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD CVG PHL MAD ORY CDG SLC SJU BQN MHT YYZ STS BIS DOH BLR KTM MFM MEX MSY BWI DEN

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