YVAMWB1900
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Re: OAG Changes 8/18/2019:AS Adds GEG-PAE;DL Adds LGW/MAN;HA Adds LAS-OGG;SY Cuts STL-MSP;UA Cuts EWR-PSP;WN

Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:02 am

**UA EWR-PSP JAN 1.0>0.2[1.0] FEB 1.0>0[1.0] MAR 1.0>0[1.0] APR 1.0>0[0.7] MAY 1.0>0[0]


What is up with this? I fly this route as a non-rev on a regular basis, and have been patiently waiting for UA to add the non-stop PSP-EWR flights back online for the winter schedule. There were always open seats. I'm tired of flying out of LAX. So, what's the schedule for this gonna be? No more non-stops for sure?

Just flew PSP-SFO-EWR on Friday.
And flew EWR-DEN-RAP-LAX today to get home.
ORD was a mess today. Didn't even wanna try flying through there.
 
jplatts
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Re: OAG Changes 8/18/2019:AS Adds GEG-PAE;DL Adds LGW/MAN;HA Adds LAS-OGG;SY Cuts STL-MSP;UA Cuts EWR-PSP;WN

Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:07 am

Cubsrule wrote:
enilria wrote:
jplatts wrote:

WN had stated that it was going to be permanently discontinuing DAL-OKC in its January 2020 Base Schedule summary.

The PDEW on DAL-OKC was only 45 passengers per day in 2018, and over 86% of the passengers on the DAL-OKC nonstops in 2018 were connecting through DAL to other destinations.

The other destinations that had daily nonstop service to DAL on WN in 2018 had higher PDEW's (and more O&D passengers) than DAL-OKC.

To me that's extremely shocking. That market used to be MUCH larger. Maybe NK should be considering it.


The way you stimulate a ~200 mile city pair profitably is by convincing the business travelers on 0-1 day trips to fly it. That's not exactly a market NK targets or one with which NK succeeds.


I agree with your point. NK also did serve IAH nonstop from DFW from September 2012 through September 2013, but NK dropped DFW-IAH nonstop service.

The PDEW on DFW-OKC was only 72 passengers per day in 2018, and AA already has more than enough nonstop flights to DFW from OKC to cover any O&D.
 
Judge1310
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Re: OAG Changes 8/18/2019:AS Adds GEG-PAE;DL Adds LGW/MAN;HA Adds LAS-OGG;SY Cuts STL-MSP;UA Cuts EWR-PSP;WN

Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:11 am

YVAMWB1900 wrote:
**UA EWR-PSP JAN 1.0>0.2[1.0] FEB 1.0>0[1.0] MAR 1.0>0[1.0] APR 1.0>0[0.7] MAY 1.0>0[0]

What is up with this? I fly this route as a non-rev on a regular basis, and have been patiently waiting for UA to add the non-stop PSP-EWR flights back online for the winter schedule. There were always open seats. I'm tired of flying out of LAX. So, what's the schedule for this gonna be? No more non-stops for sure?



I think you, literally, just answered your own question...
 
Rdh3e
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Re: OAG Changes 8/18/2019:AS Adds GEG-PAE;DL Adds LGW/MAN;HA Adds LAS-OGG;SY Cuts STL-MSP;UA Cuts EWR-PSP;WN

Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:27 am

Judge1310 wrote:
YVAMWB1900 wrote:
**UA EWR-PSP JAN 1.0>0.2[1.0] FEB 1.0>0[1.0] MAR 1.0>0[1.0] APR 1.0>0[0.7] MAY 1.0>0[0]

What is up with this? I fly this route as a non-rev on a regular basis, and have been patiently waiting for UA to add the non-stop PSP-EWR flights back online for the winter schedule. There were always open seats. I'm tired of flying out of LAX. So, what's the schedule for this gonna be? No more non-stops for sure?



I think you, literally, just answered your own question...

T100 puts it at 60% for the season and only 50% for January...
 
YVAMWB1900
Posts: 15
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Re: OAG Changes 8/18/2019:AS Adds GEG-PAE;DL Adds LGW/MAN;HA Adds LAS-OGG;SY Cuts STL-MSP;UA Cuts EWR-PSP;WN

Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:34 am

Rdh3e wrote:
Judge1310 wrote:
YVAMWB1900 wrote:
What is up with this? I fly this route as a non-rev on a regular basis, and have been patiently waiting for UA to add the non-stop PSP-EWR flights back online for the winter schedule. There were always open seats. I'm tired of flying out of LAX. So, what's the schedule for this gonna be? No more non-stops for sure?



I think you, literally, just answered your own question...

T100 puts it at 60% for the season and only 50% for January...


Oh well. Have to stick with what I can find.
 
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enilria
Topic Author
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Re: OAG Changes 8/18/2019:AS Adds GEG-PAE;DL Adds LGW/MAN;HA Adds LAS-OGG;SY Cuts STL-MSP;UA Cuts EWR-PSP;WN

Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:40 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
enilria wrote:
jplatts wrote:

WN had stated that it was going to be permanently discontinuing DAL-OKC in its January 2020 Base Schedule summary.

The PDEW on DAL-OKC was only 45 passengers per day in 2018, and over 86% of the passengers on the DAL-OKC nonstops in 2018 were connecting through DAL to other destinations.

The other destinations that had daily nonstop service to DAL on WN in 2018 had higher PDEW's (and more O&D passengers) than DAL-OKC.

To me that's extremely shocking. That market used to be MUCH larger. Maybe NK should be considering it.


The way you stimulate a ~200 mile city pair profitably is by convincing the business travelers on 0-1 day trips to fly it. That's not exactly a market NK targets or one with which NK succeeds.

That's a good point, but I'd say that is partially because they do not adjust their fee structure by route length. The bag fees are murder on short haul. If they had lower fees on short flights to adjust for distance it would help them succeed in shorter stuff.

OTOH, Google Maps says the drive is 2:57. I guess this is just another route gutted by TSA post 9/11.
 
AWACSooner
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Re: OAG Changes 8/18/2019:AS Adds GEG-PAE;DL Adds LGW/MAN;HA Adds LAS-OGG;SY Cuts STL-MSP;UA Cuts EWR-PSP;WN

Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:50 pm

Once again, OKC gets screwed! Between UA ditching the EWR route which they never promoted, now WN pulling out of DAL? Maybe the fares sucked, but I've flown that route a dozen times in the past year, and each time the flight was full (if not a few seats from being full)...now granted most of the pax were transferring intra-Texas, but this decision to drop DAL is completely asinine as far as planning for keeping business pax is concerned.
Of course, I should have expected it from an airline that refuses to paint a plane in Oklahoma colors, even though we were their second state outside of Texas.
 
AWACSooner
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Re: OAG Changes 8/18/2019:AS Adds GEG-PAE;DL Adds LGW/MAN;HA Adds LAS-OGG;SY Cuts STL-MSP;UA Cuts EWR-PSP;WN

Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:53 pm

jplatts wrote:
The PDEW on DFW-OKC was only 72 passengers per day in 2018, and AA already has more than enough nonstop flights to DFW from OKC to cover any O&D.

Of course it's all connecting traffic, but now that AA is going to be the only one offering DFW flights (and transfers), expect fares from OKC to most places in the TX/LA area that WN competed on with AA out of DFW/DAL to skyrocket, as I highly doubt that most folks will want to transfer on WN via their limited nonstops from OKC to HOU.
 
AWACSooner
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Re: OAG Changes 8/18/2019:AS Adds GEG-PAE;DL Adds LGW/MAN;HA Adds LAS-OGG;SY Cuts STL-MSP;UA Cuts EWR-PSP;WN

Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:00 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
Ehh. The history of the route includes a time of significantly lower speed limits. Isn’t it 75 most of the way now?

Only 70 on I-35 in Oklahoma...and that's if you can get past all the idiots hogging the left lane (and also don't know what a turn signal is for).
 
AWACSooner
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Re: OAG Changes 8/18/2019:AS Adds GEG-PAE;DL Adds LGW/MAN;HA Adds LAS-OGG;SY Cuts STL-MSP;UA Cuts EWR-PSP;WN

Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:01 pm

sprxUSA wrote:
Well the drive is easy and now maybe AMTRAK between OKC-FTW-DAL will gain a couple more folks.....

Oh hell no...four hours just from OKC to FTW, then backtracking to DAL? I'm still surprised the Heartland Flyer is still in operation.
 
AWACSooner
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Re: OAG Changes 8/18/2019:AS Adds GEG-PAE;DL Adds LGW/MAN;HA Adds LAS-OGG;SY Cuts STL-MSP;UA Cuts EWR-PSP;WN

Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:04 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
NK would get their ass handed to them on DFW-OKC.

Actually, NK (as much as I don't care for em) would do really well in OKC. The fares outta here have been really trending upward recently, even with G4 and F9 and their occasional flights. The biggest issue is...where would they fly to from here that would actually both stimulate demand and drive the fares back down?
 
UALifer
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Re: OAG Changes 8/18/2019:AS Adds GEG-PAE;DL Adds LGW/MAN;HA Adds LAS-OGG;SY Cuts STL-MSP;UA Cuts EWR-PSP;WN

Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:50 pm

AWACSooner wrote:
Once again, OKC gets screwed! Between UA ditching the EWR route which they never promoted, now WN pulling out of DAL? Maybe the fares sucked, but I've flown that route a dozen times in the past year, and each time the flight was full (if not a few seats from being full)...now granted most of the pax were transferring intra-Texas, but this decision to drop DAL is completely asinine as far as planning for keeping business pax is concerned.
Of course, I should have expected it from an airline that refuses to paint a plane in Oklahoma colors, even though we were their second state outside of Texas.


UA is hardly "ditching" EWR-OKC. They run the route seasonally every year April-December. 2020 will be the same.
 
AWACSooner
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Re: OAG Changes 8/18/2019:AS Adds GEG-PAE;DL Adds LGW/MAN;HA Adds LAS-OGG;SY Cuts STL-MSP;UA Cuts EWR-PSP;WN

Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:07 pm

UALifer wrote:

UA is hardly "ditching" EWR-OKC. They run the route seasonally every year April-December. 2020 will be the same.

Given how they’ve never promote this route like their others out of here and can’t seem to sustain anything besides this yearly seasonal service to their biggest trans Atlantic hub...
 
iflyalexair
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Re: OAG Changes 8/18/2019:AS Adds GEG-PAE;DL Adds LGW/MAN;HA Adds LAS-OGG;SY Cuts STL-MSP;UA Cuts EWR-PSP;WN

Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:30 pm

AWACSooner wrote:
UALifer wrote:

UA is hardly "ditching" EWR-OKC. They run the route seasonally every year April-December. 2020 will be the same.

Given how they’ve never promote this route like their others out of here and can’t seem to sustain anything besides this yearly seasonal service to their biggest trans Atlantic hub...


How much do you expect United to spend on Oklahoma based marketing? Would that marketing spur otherwise uninterested people to fly thereby providing a return on investment?

I suspect that OKC is like many markets where the legacy carrier captures what they can naturally and without effort.
 
5KOVERLIBOR
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Re: OAG Changes 8/18/2019:AS Adds GEG-PAE;DL Adds LGW/MAN;HA Adds LAS-OGG;SY Cuts STL-MSP;UA Cuts EWR-PSP;WN

Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:09 pm

WN's OKC news is a stunner. As are the PDEW figures offered above both DFW and DAL - which evidently would barely support a basic mainline narrow body.
OKC was part of the second set of non-Texas cities developed in WN's system - and became its 13th station - in 1980 (when they also added TUL and ABQ. MSY was the first outside-Texas station, opened 1979.
Best I can tell, they've been running non-stops between the two since 1980.

While I understand these are apples and oranges, in a global aviation mkt that supports IND-CDG and CHS-LHR, isn't it something it will no longer include DAL-OKC?
 
cledaybuck
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Re: OAG Changes 8/18/2019:AS Adds GEG-PAE;DL Adds LGW/MAN;HA Adds LAS-OGG;SY Cuts STL-MSP;UA Cuts EWR-PSP;WN

Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:59 pm

AWACSooner wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
NK would get their ass handed to them on DFW-OKC.

Actually, NK (as much as I don't care for em) would do really well in OKC. The fares outta here have been really trending upward recently, even with G4 and F9 and their occasional flights. The biggest issue is...where would they fly to from here that would actually both stimulate demand and drive the fares back down?

NK May do fine in OKC, but not to DFW. If what is shown above is true, the O&D isn’t that large. AA has a giant hub on one end where NK doesn’t, and this market scream business, not leisure.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
5KOVERLIBOR
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Re: OAG Changes 8/18/2019:AS Adds GEG-PAE;DL Adds LGW/MAN;HA Adds LAS-OGG;SY Cuts STL-MSP;UA Cuts EWR-PSP;WN

Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:09 am

Looking at PDEW data for both airports (I didn't have the inclination to get into the unabridged Table 6), DFW+DAL - OKC has fallen off by 56% from its peak in this data set in 1997, running a -3.1% CAGR 1996-2018.
A 9/11 impact is perhaps there, but not obvious, i.e. while 2001's 196/d was never bested, so is the same for all the years before it. That said, 2002 had the largest negative 3yr CAGR at -11.6% (beat 2009 and the Great Recession by 1.5%). I wonder what other established markets throw off 56% declines over the past nearly 25 yrs.

2018 …. 118
2017 …. 119
2016 …. 105
2015 …. 110
2014 …. 115
2013 …. 121
2012 …. 121
2011 …. 126
2010 …. 123
2009 …. 127
2008 …. 160
2007 …. 174
2006 …. 177
2005 …. 163
2004 …. 155
2003 …. 162
2002 …. 166
2001 …. 196
2000 …. 240
1999 …. 241
1998 …. 238
1997 …. 268
1996 …. 245
 
AWACSooner
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Re: OAG Changes 8/18/2019:AS Adds GEG-PAE;DL Adds LGW/MAN;HA Adds LAS-OGG;SY Cuts STL-MSP;UA Cuts EWR-PSP;WN

Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:16 am

5KOVERLIBOR wrote:
WN's OKC news is a stunner. As are the PDEW figures offered above both DFW and DAL - which evidently would barely support a basic mainline narrow body.
OKC was part of the second set of non-Texas cities developed in WN's system - and became its 13th station - in 1980 (when they also added TUL and ABQ. MSY was the first outside-Texas station, opened 1979.
Best I can tell, they've been running non-stops between the two since 1980.

While I understand these are apples and oranges, in a global aviation mkt that supports IND-CDG and CHS-LHR, isn't it something it will no longer include DAL-OKC?



The PDEW argument that some folks are bringing up for this route cancellation doesn't convince me one bit...otherwise, AA would be pulling out instead of their 8x daily (mostly all on mainline)...I guess they're next. Then again, I guess this is par for the course with WN since I've lived in OKC. They used to offer us 3x daily to MCI...that got canned late last decade. STL used to have 4x daily...now 2x. MDW was touted when it opened...then they made it seasonal. MCO? They've added it and dropped it more times than I can remember...because they always made it Sat only! Hey look, they added BNA...oh wait, it's Sunday only!

Wanna get away? Well, if it's to MAF or ELP or AUS or SAT, enjoy the long way around via HOU instead of the common sense route via DAL.
 
WaywardMemphian
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Re: OAG Changes 8/18/2019:AS Adds GEG-PAE;DL Adds LGW/MAN;HA Adds LAS-OGG;SY Cuts STL-MSP;UA Cuts EWR-PSP;WN

Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:06 am

Brickell305 wrote:
N292UX wrote:
LAX-MEM on AA was overdue IMO. Hopefully that route ends up working out for them.

The route was only added for the holiday season.


It's a start.
 
OKCDCA
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Re: OAG Changes 8/18/2019:AS Adds GEG-PAE;DL Adds LGW/MAN;HA Adds LAS-OGG;SY Cuts STL-MSP;UA Cuts EWR-PSP;WN

Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:29 am

AWACSooner wrote:
5KOVERLIBOR wrote:
WN's OKC news is a stunner. As are the PDEW figures offered above both DFW and DAL - which evidently would barely support a basic mainline narrow body.
OKC was part of the second set of non-Texas cities developed in WN's system - and became its 13th station - in 1980 (when they also added TUL and ABQ. MSY was the first outside-Texas station, opened 1979.
Best I can tell, they've been running non-stops between the two since 1980.

While I understand these are apples and oranges, in a global aviation mkt that supports IND-CDG and CHS-LHR, isn't it something it will no longer include DAL-OKC?



The PDEW argument that some folks are bringing up for this route cancellation doesn't convince me one bit...otherwise, AA would be pulling out instead of their 8x daily (mostly all on mainline)...I guess they're next. Then again, I guess this is par for the course with WN since I've lived in OKC. They used to offer us 3x daily to MCI...that got canned late last decade. STL used to have 4x daily...now 2x. MDW was touted when it opened...then they made it seasonal. MCO? They've added it and dropped it more times than I can remember...because they always made it Sat only! Hey look, they added BNA...oh wait, it's Sunday only!

Wanna get away? Well, if it's to MAF or ELP or AUS or SAT, enjoy the long way around via HOU instead of the common sense route via DAL.

The end of the Wright Amendment was definitely a problem for OKC as a WN station. Prior to that, Missouri getting added to the list of states where you could fly from DAL before going onward didn’t help either and I believe that’s when OKC-MCI disappeared or shortly thereafter. But for all the losses they were the first to fly N/S to the DC area with the BWI flights. They added DCA, which folks in OKC had been clamoring for forever. BNA going daily is a nice alternative to STL. Also, isn't MDW year round now? And even with the loss of 3x daily flights to DAL, the net number of WN flights is zero with BNA going daily and adding a 4th HOU and 3rd PHX frequency. So clearly WN found it more profitable to connect OKC passengers through other “hubs” and make better use of the gate space at DAL.

I think the biggest problem for WN at OKC in the last couple years has been AA. 8-10 flights/day to DFW, 4-5x to ORD, 2-3x to CLT, 2-3x to LAX, 1-2x to PHX, 1x to DCA and soon to be 1x to MIA is a lot of options. Really all they have left to add is LGA. I also think AA is making a dent with corporate accounts around OKC. While this is only one example, a buddy of mine works for one of the decent size oil companies in OKC and used to fly WN to MAF and HOU a couple times per month. Now he has to take AA through DFW unless the WN N/S to HOU is absolutely necessary. He’s racked up a ton of AA miles and status and now wishes he would’ve been flying AA all along.
 
AWACSooner
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Re: OAG Changes 8/18/2019:AS Adds GEG-PAE;DL Adds LGW/MAN;HA Adds LAS-OGG;SY Cuts STL-MSP;UA Cuts EWR-PSP;WN

Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:28 pm

OKCDCA wrote:
The end of the Wright Amendment was definitely a problem for OKC as a WN station. Prior to that, Missouri getting added to the list of states where you could fly from DAL before going onward didn’t help either and I believe that’s when OKC-MCI disappeared or shortly thereafter. But for all the losses they were the first to fly N/S to the DC area with the BWI flights. They added DCA, which folks in OKC had been clamoring for forever. BNA going daily is a nice alternative to STL. Also, isn't MDW year round now? And even with the loss of 3x daily flights to DAL, the net number of WN flights is zero with BNA going daily and adding a 4th HOU and 3rd PHX frequency. So clearly WN found it more profitable to connect OKC passengers through other “hubs” and make better use of the gate space at DAL.

I think the biggest problem for WN at OKC in the last couple years has been AA. 8-10 flights/day to DFW, 4-5x to ORD, 2-3x to CLT, 2-3x to LAX, 1-2x to PHX, 1x to DCA and soon to be 1x to MIA is a lot of options. Really all they have left to add is LGA. I also think AA is making a dent with corporate accounts around OKC. While this is only one example, a buddy of mine works for one of the decent size oil companies in OKC and used to fly WN to MAF and HOU a couple times per month. Now he has to take AA through DFW unless the WN N/S to HOU is absolutely necessary. He’s racked up a ton of AA miles and status and now wishes he would’ve been flying AA all along.


They added DCA nearly seven years after first promising to add it. BNA going daily? News to me...and it's about damn time! But the OKC chamber of commerce went to WN back in 2011 and begged them for a Bay Area flight for business travelers as well as connection opportunities in CA and the PNW...WN let them eat silence. They then went to UA re: SFO. UA immediately jumped on it. When WN dumped the OKC-ATL route, the airport and CoC pitched a fit, as this severely reduced the southeastern connection opportunties and gave DL impetus to jack up fares. WN responded with silence. There has been a long history of give and take between WN and OKC.

As to your friend going AA more, he's not alone...as I've had to do that numerous times the past three years...and I really don't care much for them due to service issues. But their schedule is 10x better than WN's out of OKC. But if we're using the PDEW between OKC and the metroplex as a gauge for why WN is canceling the route, then we'd better watch out, because AA and their 8x daily (with 7 on mainline) to DFW will be next ;)
 
jplatts
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Re: OAG Changes 8/18/2019:AS Adds GEG-PAE;DL Adds LGW/MAN;HA Adds LAS-OGG;SY Cuts STL-MSP;UA Cuts EWR-PSP;WN

Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:38 pm

AWACSooner wrote:
But the OKC chamber of commerce went to WN back in 2011 and begged them for a Bay Area flight for business travelers as well as connection opportunities in CA and the PNW...WN let them eat silence. They then went to UA re: SFO. UA immediately jumped on it.


WN didn't need OKC-OAK nonstop service for connections to SEA, PDX, GEG, and BOI as DEN is a much better connecting option than OAK is for connections to the Pacific Northwest from OKC and as WN can already connect passengers its destinations in the Pacific Northwest from OKC through DEN.

In addition to WN being able to connect passengers from OKC to destinations west of the Rockies through DEN, WN also could already connect passengers to its Southern California destinations from OKC through LAS and PHX.

The only reason for WN to add OKC-OAK nonstop service is for OKC to San Francisco Bay Area O&D traffic as WN could already connect passengers to the other West Coast markets served by WN from OKC through other airports that are much better connecting points than OAK is. There is also not enough demand for OKC-OAK nonstop service as the PDEW on OKC-OAK was only 16 passengers per day in 2018.
 
AWACSooner
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Re: OAG Changes 8/18/2019:AS Adds GEG-PAE;DL Adds LGW/MAN;HA Adds LAS-OGG;SY Cuts STL-MSP;UA Cuts EWR-PSP;WN

Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:50 pm

jplatts wrote:
The only reason for WN to add OKC-OAK nonstop service is for OKC to San Francisco Bay Area O&D traffic as WN could already connect passengers to the other West Coast markets served by WN from OKC through other airports that are much better connecting points than OAK is. There is also not enough demand for OKC-OAK nonstop service as the PDEW on OKC-OAK was only 16 passengers per day in 2018.

I snicker when folks bring up the "there's not enough PDEW to stimulate the route" argument because, if airlines purely operate on that paradigm, WN would be hosed as a business and never start new routes...does it occur to anyone that new routes can actually stimulate the PDEW?
 
jplatts
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Re: OAG Changes 8/18/2019:AS Adds GEG-PAE;DL Adds LGW/MAN;HA Adds LAS-OGG;SY Cuts STL-MSP;UA Cuts EWR-PSP;WN

Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:05 pm

AWACSooner wrote:
I snicker when folks bring up the "there's not enough PDEW to stimulate the route" argument because, if airlines purely operate on that paradigm, WN would be hosed as a business and never start new routes...does it occur to anyone that new routes can actually stimulate the PDEW?


While I agree with your point that new routes can stimulate the PDEW, there are already plenty of 1-stop connecting options to OAK from OKC (and vice versa) on WN.

I also agree that WN does not purely operate on the paradigm that there isn't enough PDEW to operate certain routes, even though there are many city pairs between cities already served by WN that do not have enough demand for nonstop service on WN.
 
AirFiero
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Re: OAG Changes 8/18/2019:AS Adds GEG-PAE;DL Adds LGW/MAN;HA Adds LAS-OGG;SY Cuts STL-MSP;UA Cuts EWR-PSP;WN

Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:42 pm

jplatts wrote:
AWACSooner wrote:
I snicker when folks bring up the "there's not enough PDEW to stimulate the route" argument because, if airlines purely operate on that paradigm, WN would be hosed as a business and never start new routes...does it occur to anyone that new routes can actually stimulate the PDEW?


While I agree with your point that new routes can stimulate the PDEW, there are already plenty of 1-stop connecting options to OAK from OKC (and vice versa) on WN.

I also agree that WN does not purely operate on the paradigm that there isn't enough PDEW to operate certain routes, even though there are many city pairs between cities already served by WN that do not have enough demand for nonstop service on WN.


Adding to this, wasn’t WN founded on the idea that they “don’t compete against other airlines, they compete against the car?” Of course, that was before they started flying transcontinental, but many of their routes are similar to their early days in Texas.
 
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LotsaRunway
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Re: OAG Changes 8/18/2019:AS Adds GEG-PAE;DL Adds LGW/MAN;HA Adds LAS-OGG;SY Cuts STL-MSP;UA Cuts EWR-PSP;WN

Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:39 am

jplatts wrote:
I also agree that WN does not purely operate on the paradigm that there isn't enough PDEW to operate certain routes, even though there are many city pairs between cities already served by WN that do not have enough demand for nonstop service on WN.

WN is very much focused on the O&D business and will tolerate high yielding connections, especially at lower cost connection points. WN doesn’t care that OKC-DAL flights are full. They have trimmed a lot of normally full flights that tended to have a lot of connecting passengers. They want the planes on routes full of higher yielding O&D passengers. AA, being a true hub and spoke airline, is a lot more tolerant of airplanes full of connecting passengers. That said, there are a few routes and cities that WN seems to have been designed to feed connections.
 
alasizon
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Re: OAG Changes 8/18/2019:AS Adds GEG-PAE;DL Adds LGW/MAN;HA Adds LAS-OGG;SY Cuts STL-MSP;UA Cuts EWR-PSP;WN

Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:27 am

LotsaRunway wrote:
WN is very much focused on the O&D business and will tolerate high yielding connections, especially at lower cost connection points. WN doesn’t care that OKC-DAL flights are full. They have trimmed a lot of normally full flights that tended to have a lot of connecting passengers. They want the planes on routes full of higher yielding O&D passengers. AA, being a true hub and spoke airline, is a lot more tolerant of airplanes full of connecting passengers. That said, there are a few routes and cities that WN seems to have been designed to feed connections.


Your point about WN is valid; but AA makes is bread and butter on high yielding connections from non-hub market to non-hub market. So as long as those OKC passengers are going to places like ROW, XNA, SAF, etc. where they can generate a yield premium they are going to be making more money than a plane filled with O&D pax.
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