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Spacepope
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Re: Delta 757 hard landing this morning at Azores PDL

Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:44 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I was answering the question as to a gear down ferry TAT in general, not on the feasibility of THIS plane doing so. I’d agree this plane might not be ferried without a lot of work.


GF


I agree. Looking at the different areas where surface buckling is seen (and the path that load must have taken) the fuselage and nosegear would need a lot of inspection and work before a gear down ferry.

I’d love to hear more about that transpacific gear down ferry flight.
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mcogator
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Re: Delta 757 hard landing this morning at Azores PDL

Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:50 am

bennett123 wrote:
It is ship 5643.

According to deltamuseum.org that in N543US.

First flight 1996.

Dang. I flew it SEA-MCO two years ago.
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Chrisgoodwin82
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Re: Delta 757 hard landing this morning at Azores PDL

Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:13 am

What will happen to the pilots in this situation? I presume delta will investigate to see if there is any blame?
 
Viper911
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Re: Delta 757 hard landing this morning at Azores PDL

Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:27 am

questions wrote:
Sorry if I missed this, but I’ve only read “hard landing” and “rough landing.”

Can someone describe the type of landing that would cause this type of damage? For example, nose gear first or main and nose gear at the same time.


Here is an example of an ANA 767 that suffered the same type of damage. Bounced landing, then hit the runway with the nose gear first, creating a crease in the fuselage

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jw-aUVa3a0U

Viper911
 
aeropix
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Re: Delta 757 hard landing this morning at Azores PDL

Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:29 am

AerolineasAR343 wrote:
In cases like these when the plane is damaged (not extensively, but at the same time enough to consider a write-off), do the pilots ever face disciplinary or economic charges from the airlines? Is that common? A hard landing in normal wheater is usually pilot error, no?


I, too am curious about Delta's or more likely the Union's reaction to all of this. I think in the USA the airlines are incredibly forgiving of pilots who make genuine mistakes even if they are costly ones. This non-punitive culture encourages incident pilots to more freely share information even if it may be self incriminating, thereby enhancing safety for all those who follow.

I would be extremely interested to learn the chain of events that led up to the hard landing so that I could learn from these mistakes and thereby prevent myself doing the same thing one day.

I think the normal course of action (in the USA) at this stage would be to remove the pilots from flying with full pay pending an internal investigation by the company. This investigation would be followed by a management decision - usually in consultation with safety experts from the Union - as to the outcome for the pilots. The outcome - dependent upon the circumstances - could include retraining the pilots, or possible demotion of the Captain to F.O. Termination is highly unlikely unless clear negligence was exhibited but that would have to be something egregious like the monitoring pilot answering a cellphone call on short finals.

These are just some general thoughts about the matter based on observations throughout my career, having never been through such processes myself. Maybe someone from DL or another US carrier can comment further?
 
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Re: Delta 757 hard landing this morning at Azores PDL

Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:50 am

 
PlymSpotter
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Re: Delta 757 hard landing this morning at Azores PDL

Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:45 am

zeke wrote:
PlymSpotter wrote:
The cost of scrapping and parting out will not be cheap in the Azores - this is likely to make the case for a repair more compelling.


A good crew of mechanics would be able to remove the best parts of it in a week or two. Doors, avionics, actuators, engines, apu. They can be loaded into shipping containers.

An excavator and truck could dispose of the aircraft into landfill in a day. Sometimes they are donated as airport fire fighting training tools.


And the rest - ASI reckon on around 8-10 weeks for a full 757 strip, and that is in their specialist facility with a large team and all equipment on hand. A week at a remote airport like PDL wouldn't even touch half the most valuable parts.

Similarly, don't bank on just being able to trip the trash. Land-filling recyclable materials will be banned soon, a lot of facilities are already stepping in line.
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slcguy
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Re: Delta 757 hard landing this morning at Azores PDL

Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:42 am

questions wrote:
Sorry if I missed this, but I’ve only read “hard landing” and “rough landing.”

Can someone describe the type of landing that would cause this type of damage? For example, nose gear first or main and nose gear at the same time.


This looks like something that has happened several times in the past. More common on the 767 but can happen with the 757 as well. Aircraft touches down normally or slightly hard on main gear and pilots don't hold the nose up after touchdown allowing the nose gear to come down hard. 767/757s require the nose gear be flown/lowered onto the runway smoothly. The damage is always the wrinkle in the forward fuselage as in this case.

The incident with the UA 757 at EWR a couple of months ago was different, aircraft hit very hard on the main gear (enough to blow some tires) causing a bounce with a second hard touchdown nose gear first punching the nose gear up into the fuselage.
Last edited by slcguy on Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:57 am, edited 3 times in total.
 
catiii
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Re: Delta 757 hard landing this morning at Azores PDL

Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:46 am

reltney wrote:
Nothing on the market today can do the 757 job


You’re damn right. They (literally) broke the mold. The airplane is amazing.
 
RalXWB
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Re: Delta 757 hard landing this morning at Azores PDL

Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:10 pm

Yes, it has an amazingly high fuel consumption and maintenance costs #ironyoff
 
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Veigar
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Re: Delta 757 hard landing this morning at Azores PDL

Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:51 pm

The ANA 767 that had a crease 2012 was repaired and is currently still in service. It was 9 years old at the time, though.
 
Strato2
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Re: Delta 757 hard landing this morning at Azores PDL

Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:58 pm

reltney wrote:
Nothing on the market today can do the 757 job, not even the 321 neo or the 737-900/9 It comes close but cannot directly replace the 757.



The A321neo LR will do everything the 757 did. The A321neo XLR will run circles aroung the beloved 757 on performance.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Delta 757 hard landing this morning at Azores PDL

Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:59 pm

DL has a few 757's stored at MZJ, perhaps they could just do a ship replacement similarly to the incident with 6304 (the 747 that had hail damage).
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kabq737
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Re: Delta 757 hard landing this morning at Azores PDL

Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:03 pm

Hi all.

Please keep the A321 vs 757 flame war out of this thread.

Thanks.
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Delta 757 hard landing this morning at Azores PDL

Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:30 pm

Spacepope wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I was answering the question as to a gear down ferry TAT in general, not on the feasibility of THIS plane doing so. I’d agree this plane might not be ferried without a lot of work.


GF


I agree. Looking at the different areas where surface buckling is seen (and the path that load must have taken) the fuselage and nosegear would need a lot of inspection and work before a gear down ferry.

I’d love to hear more about that transpacific gear down ferry flight.


Gear problem on landing at RAAF Richmond that required jacking to work and confirm fix. Obviously, no C-5 jacks there, so gear down, NSTU, PHIK, KSUU for the repair. Winds out of limits for jacking at PHIK, so the last leg was to Travis, repair took all of 24 hours. The C-5 had a AFM procedure-Alternate Main Landing Gear Retraction-Non-Standard Configuration. The control C/Bs on the affected gear, gear up and off to enroute. Pretty low drag at gear limit speed with only one paw hanging. True airspeed at F200 wasn’t terrible and a 6 hour flight turned into about 9 and a bit.

GF
 
JBirdAV8r
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Re: Delta 757 hard landing this morning at Azores PDL

Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:45 pm

Difficult to speculate, but my guess would be a porpoising bounce resulting in landing hard on the nose gear.
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timf
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Re: Delta 757 hard landing this morning at Azores PDL

Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:04 pm

flymco753 wrote:
DL has a few 757's stored at MZJ, perhaps they could just do a ship replacement similarly to the incident with 6304 (the 747 that had hail damage).

I don't believe that any of those would be a suitable replacement for an ETOPS-rated 757.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Delta 757 hard landing this morning at Azores PDL

Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:12 pm

Meant to say, the engineer pulled the C/B on the affected gear, then retract the rest. This was allowed only for main gears.
 
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747classic
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Re: Delta 757 hard landing this morning at Azores PDL

Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:41 pm

N641GT Atlas Air B767-300ER (built 1992 !) was repaired for $8 milj. after a simular incident at 27 Jul 2018 at PSM, hard landing causing skin crease on top of forward fuselage
Ferried PSM-VQQ 19 Sep 2018 for repair
Returned to service 5 Jan 2019

See : viewtopic.php?t=1400051

For pictures of temp repair before ferry flight and final repair , see : https://imgur.com/a/tDjk16H
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747classic
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Re: Delta 757 hard landing this morning at Azores PDL

Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:57 pm

It all depends on the present bookvalue, re-sale value, assurance, etc.

Last FAA maintenance entry for N543US was recorded at 12/6/2018 : 69933 flt hrs and 27261 cycles.

The 757 series can be operated with full Boeing support until 150.000 hrs and 75.000 cycles (LOV)

If the repair is performed together with a passenger - freighter modification, the repair cost would be far less.
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
nws2002
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Re: Delta 757 hard landing this morning at Azores PDL

Mon Aug 19, 2019 4:52 pm

Chrisgoodwin82 wrote:
What will happen to the pilots in this situation? I presume delta will investigate to see if there is any blame?


I'm sure DL will investigate. Also, the pilots probably filed an ASAP report and assuming no intentional disregard for safety, should be protected under that program from any company or FAA action. The investigation will be shared with the ASAP event review committee, and that committee will determine appropriate corrective action like training.
 
NotFinals
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Re: Delta 757 hard landing this morning at Azores PDL

Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:19 pm

this is a 100% write off. Engines , Avionics and control surfaces will be pulled off but this plane will never leave the Azores
 
DL777200LR
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Re: Delta 757 hard landing this morning at Azores PDL

Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:40 pm

Maintenance and structural engineers are currently on site evaluating damage.
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Delta 757 hard landing this morning at Azores PDL

Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:51 pm

747classic wrote:
It all depends on the present bookvalue, re-sale value, assurance, etc.

Last FAA maintenance entry for N543US was recorded at 12/6/2018 : 69933 flt hrs and 27261 cycles.

The 757 series can be operated with full Boeing support until 150.000 hrs and 75.000 cycles (LOV)

If the repair is performed together with a passenger - freighter modification, the repair cost would be far less.


It would still have to be fixed enough to allow a ferry flight.
 
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keesje
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Re: Delta 757 hard landing this morning at Azores PDL

Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:45 pm

zeke wrote:
PlymSpotter wrote:
The cost of scrapping and parting out will not be cheap in the Azores - this is likely to make the case for a repair more compelling.


A good crew of mechanics would be able to remove the best parts of it in a week or two. Doors, avionics, actuators, engines, apu. They can be loaded into shipping containers.

An excavator and truck could dispose of the aircraft into landfill in a day. Sometimes they are donated as airport fire fighting training tools.


Not sure about the landfill solution these days. Photo's are hard to avoid & tend to go viral & make you look bad. :crossfingers: There are companies that take care of all or part of the situation meeting all requirements e.g. https://www.aels.nl/disassembly-dismantling/process/on-site-disassembly-and-dismantling
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aviationjunky
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Re: Delta 757 hard landing this morning at Azores PDL

Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:12 pm

Does any have a video of the incident? It'd be interesting to see exactly how it landed to cause damage like that.
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T4thH
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Re: Delta 757 hard landing this morning at Azores PDL

Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:31 pm

reltney wrote:
T4thH wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
23 years isn't that old. If it's just that wrinkle, it can be repaired. Atlas repaired a 767-300 with a worse-looking wrinkle after bending it with troops aboard at PSM.

Delta will now start to phase out the 100 B757-200 next year and to replace them by A321 Neo. I do not know, when the last of the B757-200 will be replaced, perhaps the whole B757-200 story will already end between 2025 to 2027? And these birds will not have any second live (as freighter), just because all of them are now so old. With 30 years, they are at the end of their live.

The B757-300 is another story, they are younger (first was delivered in 1999), only 55 have been build and all 55 are still on duty. Airlines like them, they are not giving them away.





Ahhhhh. No they won’t.
As we were told in operations during one of the days management comes and chats with pilots, this is what they said.....The current 757/767 fleet will stay on until 2026 in present numbers or more if we find some. Nothing on the market today can do the 757 job, not even the 321 neo or the 737-900/9 It comes close but cannot directly replace the 757. The 757=300:is our best money on property. We are looking into the 797 and could be the launch customer. Boeing is now working with us and airbus isn’t . Their rolls have changed. A few other things were mentioned with the 88 drawdown and the stretched Canabus.

These were the managements words.. however, this was right before the MAX problems so all bets are off.


Sorry, this is new for me and it is not according, what I have seen (and also new for everyone else here?). Even Wikipedia is stating something different. As example:

The A321neos, which Delta will configure with 197 seats, will replace ageing narrowbodies in the airline's fleet, including the Airbus A320, Boeing 757-200 and MD-90.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/delta-picks-a321neo-for-narrowbody-replacement-444153/
Or Wikipedia:
Older aircraft to be phased out from 2020.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_Air_Lines_fleet#Current_fleet

Also older B767-300ER shall be phased out. They will be replaced by A330 Neo, and this shall start soon.
And I would be surprised, with an age around 30 years, it is latest time for a replacement of a narowbody, and widebodies are regular leaving even a little bit earlier.
 
Oliver2020
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Re: Delta 757 hard landing this morning at Azores PDL

Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:52 pm

T4thH wrote:
reltney wrote:
T4thH wrote:
Delta will now start to phase out the 100 B757-200 next year and to replace them by A321 Neo. I do not know, when the last of the B757-200 will be replaced, perhaps the whole B757-200 story will already end between 2025 to 2027? And these birds will not have any second live (as freighter), just because all of them are now so old. With 30 years, they are at the end of their live.

The B757-300 is another story, they are younger (first was delivered in 1999), only 55 have been build and all 55 are still on duty. Airlines like them, they are not giving them away.





Ahhhhh. No they won’t.
As we were told in operations during one of the days management comes and chats with pilots, this is what they said.....The current 757/767 fleet will stay on until 2026 in present numbers or more if we find some. Nothing on the market today can do the 757 job, not even the 321 neo or the 737-900/9 It comes close but cannot directly replace the 757. The 757=300:is our best money on property. We are looking into the 797 and could be the launch customer. Boeing is now working with us and airbus isn’t . Their rolls have changed. A few other things were mentioned with the 88 drawdown and the stretched Canabus.

These were the managements words.. however, this was right before the MAX problems so all bets are off.


Sorry, this is new for me and it is not according, what I have seen (and also new for everyone else here?). Even Wikipedia is stating something different. As example:

The A321neos, which Delta will configure with 197 seats, will replace ageing narrowbodies in the airline's fleet, including the Airbus A320, Boeing 757-200 and MD-90.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/delta-picks-a321neo-for-narrowbody-replacement-444153/
Or Wikipedia:
Older aircraft to be phased out from 2020.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_Air_Lines_fleet#Current_fleet

Also older B767-300ER shall be phased out. They will be replaced by A330 Neo, and this shall start soon.
And I would be surprised, with an age around 30 years, it is latest time for a replacement of a narowbody, and widebodies are regular leaving even a little bit earlier.


Wikipedia is a good source to reference something, but to confirm something investigate it from a reliable website. As a guest anyone can edit and change things on Wikipedia, test it yourself use the edit as a guest edit out an a or is and see if it doesn't reflect in the narrative when you refresh the page.

If you want TRUE factual information you need to look at SEC filings, video from the CEO, or a press release from the company. As I posted in another forum even plane spotters is incorrect with leases and especially seating configuration and in some cases the age of the aircraft. If you want the information run the N number on the FFA.gov website.
Last edited by Oliver2020 on Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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747classic
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Re: Delta 757 hard landing this morning at Azores PDL

Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:54 pm

747classic wrote:
It all depends on the present bookvalue, re-sale value, assurance, etc.



An example :

KLM DC10-30 PH-DTE , Panama City-Tocumen International Airport (PTY), 04 JUN 1983
During landing the aircraft veered off the runway into muddy ground. The nose gear collapsed and the airplane sustained substantial damage.
See : https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 19830603-0

Although this aircraft was repairable, KLM's costing showed that it was more economical to remove the GE CF6-50 engines, strip the hull fittings, take some insurance settlement and sell the bare hull for spares than it was to repair it .
KLM ordered a new 747-300, with only one engine, for a far lower price than usual, possibly under $85 million, because it already had 3 GE CF6-50 engines for the aircraft.

See : https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive ... search=KLM 747

The hull, minus engines was sold to Trans Union Leasing Corporation.

SAS decided to buy the hull and the aircraft was fully repaired and became active again after more than 2 years storage.
See : https://www.planespotters.net/airframe/ ... s/4a2LHQAA
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
bgm
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Re: Delta 757 hard landing this morning at Azores PDL

Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:58 pm

NotFinals wrote:
this is a 100% write off. Engines , Avionics and control surfaces will be pulled off but this plane will never leave the Azores


Source/proof for this statement?
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Spacepope
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Re: Delta 757 hard landing this morning at Azores PDL

Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:41 pm

747classic wrote:
It all depends on the present bookvalue, re-sale value, assurance, etc.

Last FAA maintenance entry for N543US was recorded at 12/6/2018 : 69933 flt hrs and 27261 cycles.

The 757 series can be operated with full Boeing support until 150.000 hrs and 75.000 cycles (LOV)

If the repair is performed together with a passenger - freighter modification, the repair cost would be far less.

While true, that 767 didn't also have the heavy damage near the nose gear and the preexisting crown damage repair. When you compound that with the facts that DL usually parks their 757s at around 80- 100,000 hours and the freighter market for this model isn't exactly what it used to be...
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Wacker1000
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Re: Delta 757 hard landing this morning at Azores PDL

Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:04 pm

AerolineasAR343 wrote:
In cases like these when the plane is damaged (not extensively, but at the same time enough to consider a write-off), do the pilots ever face disciplinary or economic charges from the airlines? Is that common? A hard landing in normal wheater is usually pilot error, no?


It really depends on the circumstances - never a simple yes/no answer.

Now it is a completely different story for someone that posts internal company photos on the internet. ;)
 
okie73
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Re: Delta 757 hard landing this morning at Azores PDL

Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:59 pm

Wacker1000 wrote:
AerolineasAR343 wrote:
In cases like these when the plane is damaged (not extensively, but at the same time enough to consider a write-off), do the pilots ever face disciplinary or economic charges from the airlines? Is that common? A hard landing in normal wheater is usually pilot error, no?


It really depends on the circumstances - never a simple yes/no answer.

Now it is a completely different story for someone that posts internal company photos on the internet. ;)


Delta has an excellent corporate safety and employee culture. Mistakes happen. As long as you are forthcoming and honest about what happened your job is not in jeopardy.
 
T4thH
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Re: Delta 757 hard landing this morning at Azores PDL

Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:39 am

Oliver2020 wrote:
T4thH wrote:
reltney wrote:




Ahhhhh. No they won’t.
As we were told in operations during one of the days management comes and chats with pilots, this is what they said.....The current 757/767 fleet will stay on until 2026 in present numbers or more if we find some. Nothing on the market today can do the 757 job, not even the 321 neo or the 737-900/9 It comes close but cannot directly replace the 757. The 757=300:is our best money on property. We are looking into the 797 and could be the launch customer. Boeing is now working with us and airbus isn’t . Their rolls have changed. A few other things were mentioned with the 88 drawdown and the stretched Canabus.

These were the managements words.. however, this was right before the MAX problems so all bets are off.


Sorry, this is new for me and it is not according, what I have seen (and also new for everyone else here?). Even Wikipedia is stating something different. As example:

The A321neos, which Delta will configure with 197 seats, will replace ageing narrowbodies in the airline's fleet, including the Airbus A320, Boeing 757-200 and MD-90.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/delta-picks-a321neo-for-narrowbody-replacement-444153/
Or Wikipedia:
Older aircraft to be phased out from 2020.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_Air_Lines_fleet#Current_fleet

Also older B767-300ER shall be phased out. They will be replaced by A330 Neo, and this shall start soon.
And I would be surprised, with an age around 30 years, it is latest time for a replacement of a narowbody, and widebodies are regular leaving even a little bit earlier.


Wikipedia is a good source to reference something, but to confirm something investigate it from a reliable website. As a guest anyone can edit and change things on Wikipedia, test it yourself use the edit as a guest edit out an a or is and see if it doesn't reflect in the narrative when you refresh the page.

If you want TRUE factual information you need to look at SEC filings, video from the CEO, or a press release from the company. As I posted in another forum even plane spotters is incorrect with leases and especially seating configuration and in some cases the age of the aircraft. If you want the information run the N number on the FFA.gov website.


First, I do not use Wikipedia as source, but I am searching for something, I regular use the links in Wikipedia as start.
Second, for me a news from a reliable source like FlightGlobal, stating of the original announcement of Delta or someone else. is regular good enough. I need not to search the home page of Delta, to search for a two year old announcement, which is either already deleted or moved somewhere in the news archive which such a bad search tool, that regarding the used keyword will get zero results or just all.
 
icelandair75w
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Re: Delta 757 hard landing this morning at Azores PDL

Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:48 am

Reminds me of the Atlas 763 that had a hard landing at Portsmouth NH - PSM - http://avherald.com/h?article=4bbab491&opt=0
I'm willing to bet Delta will get the aircraft into good enough shape to ferry PDL-ATL, and complete the repairs in-house at homebase.
As someone else noted above, this is a 1996 ETOPS frame, highly likely to be low on cycles, and has more than a few years remaining.
 
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September11
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Re: Delta 757 hard landing this morning at Azores PDL

Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:55 am

Sorry if I missed it but how many passengers were on the flight?
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Oliver2020
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Re: Delta 757 hard landing this morning at Azores PDL

Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:57 am

T4thH wrote:
Oliver2020 wrote:
T4thH wrote:

Sorry, this is new for me and it is not according, what I have seen (and also new for everyone else here?). Even Wikipedia is stating something different. As example:


https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/delta-picks-a321neo-for-narrowbody-replacement-444153/
Or Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_Air_Lines_fleet#Current_fleet

Also older B767-300ER shall be phased out. They will be replaced by A330 Neo, and this shall start soon.
And I would be surprised, with an age around 30 years, it is latest time for a replacement of a narowbody, and widebodies are regular leaving even a little bit earlier.


Wikipedia is a good source to reference something, but to confirm something investigate it from a reliable website. As a guest anyone can edit and change things on Wikipedia, test it yourself use the edit as a guest edit out an a or is and see if it doesn't reflect in the narrative when you refresh the page.

If you want TRUE factual information you need to look at SEC filings, video from the CEO, or a press release from the company. As I posted in another forum even plane spotters is incorrect with leases and especially seating configuration and in some cases the age of the aircraft. If you want the information run the N number on the FFA.gov website.


First, I do not use Wikipedia as source, but I am searching for something, I regular use the links in Wikipedia as start.
Second, for me a news from a reliable source like FlightGlobal, stating of the original announcement of Delta or someone else. is regular good enough. I need not to search the home page of Delta, to search for a two year old announcement, which is either already deleted or moved somewhere in the news archive which such a bad search tool, that regarding the used keyword will get zero results or just all.


You referenced Wikipedia twice in your post once posting a link to Wikipedia, and a third time to support the flight global article (which is a reputable source and I never said otherwise).
 
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Spacepope
Posts: 4344
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Re: Delta 757 hard landing this morning at Azores PDL

Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:30 am

icelandair75w wrote:
Reminds me of the Atlas 763 that had a hard landing at Portsmouth NH - PSM - http://avherald.com/h?article=4bbab491&opt=0
I'm willing to bet Delta will get the aircraft into good enough shape to ferry PDL-ATL, and complete the repairs in-house at homebase.
As someone else noted above, this is a 1996 ETOPS frame, highly likely to be low on cycles, and has more than a few years remaining.

Based on the last SDR, it has around 72000 hours and 28000 cycles on it. Not used up completely but no spring chicken either.
The last of the famous international playboys
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Delta 757 hard landing this morning at Azores PDL

Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:46 am

AngelsDecay wrote:
asuflyer wrote:
https://jornalacores9.pt/uma-aterragem-dificil-da-delta-airlines-em-ponta-delgada-deixou-a-aeronave-em-mau-estado/

The winds in PDL can be very nasty at times, however this morning only ranging between 10-14 knots. Surprised no comments from yet regarding where/what the Azores are and those who can't understand why DL flies there.

Being raised in Azores myself decades ago please have in mind that there is a giant migrant community of azoreans living in the States... A possible answer to your question.


Unless there's a slot or gate issue, I'm actually surprised that SP or UA doesn't fly from there to Newark at least seasonally (there is a major Portuguese expat population in the Ironbound)...they could use an A321LR on EWR-PDL (SP) or a pmCO B752 (now) or MAX 9/10 (later); there are likely narrow-body gates available for an early afternoon (before 3 PM) arrival.

Now, as for N543US, it is nearing another heavy check. I could see DL just getting the plane to mainland Europe for asset recovery and then onward to a European scrapper.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Delta 757 hard landing this morning at Azores PDL

Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:56 am

We have seen a number of hard, late or otherwise bad landings damaging aircraft with increasing frequency. If mechanical problems, flaws in automated systems, general weather and wind, conditions of runways are not major issues, one has to look at the pilots. I realize that pilots are human, but several factors including flawed training, a lack of airmanship, fatigue (especially with overnight flights), lack of experience at a given airport need to be looked at and improvements made.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Delta 757 hard landing this morning at Azores PDL

Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:06 am

ltbewr wrote:
We have seen a number of hard, late or otherwise bad landings damaging aircraft with increasing frequency. If mechanical problems, flaws in automated systems, general weather and wind, conditions of runways are not major issues, one has to look at the pilots. I realize that pilots are human, but several factors including flawed training, a lack of airmanship, fatigue (especially with overnight flights), lack of experience at a given airport need to be looked at and improvements made.


I think it was discussed with the last 757 damaged from a hard landing that the 757 has had a long history of issues with a tendency to take pilots by surprise by suddenly coming down on its nose too hard. Can't remember if that was here or in the comments of something linked.
 
777Mech
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Re: Delta 757 hard landing this morning at Azores PDL

Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:14 am

Take it for what it's worth, but it was due for a heavy check within the next couple of weeks.
 
Max Q
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Re: Delta 757 hard landing this morning at Azores PDL

Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:52 am

Jouhou wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
We have seen a number of hard, late or otherwise bad landings damaging aircraft with increasing frequency. If mechanical problems, flaws in automated systems, general weather and wind, conditions of runways are not major issues, one has to look at the pilots. I realize that pilots are human, but several factors including flawed training, a lack of airmanship, fatigue (especially with overnight flights), lack of experience at a given airport need to be looked at and improvements made.


I think it was discussed with the last 757 damaged from a hard landing that the 757 has had a long history of issues with a tendency to take pilots by surprise by suddenly coming down on its nose too hard. Can't remember if that was here or in the comments of something linked.



That’s correct

I made a couple of comments on the pitch
control characteristics of the 757

It has a ‘dead spot’ in pitch you have to watch out for

During rotation on take off, it requires a fairly pronounced input to start the nose up then an immediate input reduction to avoid over rotation


On landing while lowering the nose it tends
to ‘hang up’ before touching, this requires a slight relaxation of back pressure or even a small nose down input followed immediately by back pressure to stop the nose wheel from slamming down


It can hit really hard if you dont get this technique correct, it’s also quite common to think the nose wheels have touched an they haven’t so you relax back pressure and ‘wham’


As long as you’re aware of this characteristic, anticipate and act on it it’s not an issue but once in a while even an
experienced 757 pilot can forget and it will
bite, sometimes causing significant damage


This may or may not have been the case here
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


Guns and the love of them by a loud minority are a malignant and deadly cancer inflicted on American society
 
N649DL
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Re: Delta 757 hard landing this morning at Azores PDL

Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:59 am

N776AU wrote:
T4thH wrote:
AngelsDecay wrote:
Could this become a written off..!?
Looks a Lil bit nasty...

https://www.facebook.com/groups/acores. ... 386448162/

Regular it can be repaired, but it is really expensive and the bird will be for long time in the repair shop.

As this is a B757-251 according link, it iwill become a written of. It will be just phased out a little bit earlier.
Does someone know, how old it is, the production number?

EDIT: and most worse, the accident has occurred on the Azores, on an island n the middle of the Atlantic ocean with a real special airport. How they will get it back from there? They will have to part it out locally.

Looks like it was N543US. Delivered to Northwest in 1996.


One frame that probably had little experiences flying into the Azores in general. It was either based in Tokyo (or flew occasionally into AMS when NW did TATL routes from the east coast.) Sad to see, but wasn't aware they were doing TATL ops on the ex-NW 757s either once again.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 7931
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Delta 757 hard landing this morning at Azores PDL

Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:46 am

Spacepope wrote:
icelandair75w wrote:
Reminds me of the Atlas 763 that had a hard landing at Portsmouth NH - PSM - http://avherald.com/h?article=4bbab491&opt=0
I'm willing to bet Delta will get the aircraft into good enough shape to ferry PDL-ATL, and complete the repairs in-house at homebase.
As someone else noted above, this is a 1996 ETOPS frame, highly likely to be low on cycles, and has more than a few years remaining.

Based on the last SDR, it has around 72000 hours and 28000 cycles on it. Not used up completely but no spring chicken either.


With the LOV being 75000/150000, it's not even halfway there on hours and a little more than a third of the way there on cycles.

In 23 years of service.

Of course these things often become insufficiently-reliable for major pax airline work long before reaching the LOV.
 
BAeRJ100
Posts: 398
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Re: Delta 757 hard landing this morning at Azores PDL

Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:59 am

777Mech wrote:
Take it for what it's worth, but it was due for a heavy check within the next couple of weeks.


Got something else that was heavy instead.
B737/738/739/744ER/752/753/763/77L/77W/788/789
A223/320/321/332/333/346/359/388
MD82/MD88/717/F100/RJ85/RJ100/146-100/200/300
E175/190/CRJ700/900
 
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Spacepope
Posts: 4344
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 1999 11:10 am

Re: Delta 757 hard landing this morning at Azores PDL

Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:17 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Spacepope wrote:
icelandair75w wrote:
Reminds me of the Atlas 763 that had a hard landing at Portsmouth NH - PSM - http://avherald.com/h?article=4bbab491&opt=0
I'm willing to bet Delta will get the aircraft into good enough shape to ferry PDL-ATL, and complete the repairs in-house at homebase.
As someone else noted above, this is a 1996 ETOPS frame, highly likely to be low on cycles, and has more than a few years remaining.

Based on the last SDR, it has around 72000 hours and 28000 cycles on it. Not used up completely but no spring chicken either.


With the LOV being 75000/150000, it's not even halfway there on hours and a little more than a third of the way there on cycles.

In 23 years of service.

Of course these things often become insufficiently-reliable for major pax airline work long before reaching the LOV.


In this case the LOV means almost nothing since DL parks and parts their 757s way earlier than that. They must really start getting expensive to maintain as they approach 100,000 hours/40,000 cycles.
The last of the famous international playboys
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4667
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

Re: Delta 757 hard landing this morning at Azores PDL

Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:22 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
AngelsDecay wrote:
asuflyer wrote:
https://jornalacores9.pt/uma-aterragem-dificil-da-delta-airlines-em-ponta-delgada-deixou-a-aeronave-em-mau-estado/

The winds in PDL can be very nasty at times, however this morning only ranging between 10-14 knots. Surprised no comments from yet regarding where/what the Azores are and those who can't understand why DL flies there.

Being raised in Azores myself decades ago please have in mind that there is a giant migrant community of azoreans living in the States... A possible answer to your question.


Unless there's a slot or gate issue, I'm actually surprised that SP or UA doesn't fly from there to Newark at least seasonally (there is a major Portuguese expat population in the Ironbound)...they could use an A321LR on EWR-PDL (SP) or a pmCO B752 (now) or MAX 9/10 (later); there are likely narrow-body gates available for an early afternoon (before 3 PM) arrival.

Now, as for N543US, it is nearing another heavy check. I could see DL just getting the plane to mainland Europe for asset recovery and then onward to a European scrapper.


The large Portuguese community in the Ironbound is primarily from mainland Portugal (and in particular the North of the country). That might be part of what led UA to launch last year their summer EWR-OPO, and TP to increase frequencies year round on that route when they got their first A321LR. There is a huge Azorean community in the U.S., but primarily focused around Southern MA / RI, and to a lesser extent the Central Valley in CA, so that is why Sata flies to BOS year round, and to Providence and OAK seasonally.

Considering how DL moved their ATL-LIS to a BOS-LIS, I am surprised they did not make this route a BOS-PDL instead, would seem to make more sense, unless this route is primarily anchored on NYC point of sale O&D, which would be surprising (can't say I have met many New Yorkers who know what the Azores is).
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
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aemoreira1981
Posts: 2885
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Re: Delta 757 hard landing this morning at Azores PDL

Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:29 pm

N649DL wrote:
N776AU wrote:
T4thH wrote:
Regular it can be repaired, but it is really expensive and the bird will be for long time in the repair shop.

As this is a B757-251 according link, it iwill become a written of. It will be just phased out a little bit earlier.
Does someone know, how old it is, the production number?

EDIT: and most worse, the accident has occurred on the Azores, on an island n the middle of the Atlantic ocean with a real special airport. How they will get it back from there? They will have to part it out locally.

Looks like it was N543US. Delivered to Northwest in 1996.


One frame that probably had little experiences flying into the Azores in general. It was either based in Tokyo (or flew occasionally into AMS when NW did TATL routes from the east coast.) Sad to see, but wasn't aware they were doing TATL ops on the ex-NW 757s either once again.


SNN is also a destination on a pmNW B752. That's because those frames are ETOPS-equipped while the legacy DL B752s (without Delta One) are not.
 
Antarius
Posts: 1723
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Delta 757 hard landing this morning at Azores PDL

Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:30 pm

Strato2 wrote:
reltney wrote:
Nothing on the market today can do the 757 job, not even the 321 neo or the 737-900/9 It comes close but cannot directly replace the 757.



The A321neo LR will do everything the 757 did. The A321neo XLR will run circles aroung the beloved 757 on performance.


And yet DL still plans to keep flying their 757s till EOL. As do others. The 321 will not ever do everything the 757 can, but it was never designed to. That's also why the a321 will end up with a total order book many many times that of the 757, as it can do other things better.

Sad that you are so blinded by partisanship.

To the topic, will be interesting to see what they do with it. 23 years old, but still low cycles. Given the inability to procure a replacement, the economic equation does change.
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