Ishrion
Topic Author
Posts: 1358
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:17 am

Air Italy Reports Losses Of €164 Million in 2018

Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:12 pm

https://www.paddleyourownkanoo.com/2019 ... ari-money/

https://onemileatatime.com/air-italy-losses/

Revenue: €283.76 million
Loss: €164.18 million
58% of their revenue.

Since rebranding to much fanfare as Air Italy and launching a new business strategy the carrier has made less revenue, flown fewer miles and carried fewer passengers according to documents seen by the paper.


From onemileatatime:

- Revenue in 2018 was down to 283.76 million EUR from 360.33 million EUR the previous year
- Passenger numbers in 2018 were down to 1.91 million from 2.44 million the previous year
- Flown hours in 2018 were down to 42,283 from 50,592 the previous year
- The airline has reduced charter flying, which led to a loss of about 65 million EUR
- The fleet size was increased to 15 from 14 the previous year (that includes three 737 MAX planes, which are grounded at this point)


Not good after their failed expansion to Chicago, Bangkok, Delhi, and Mumbai and rapid expansion to the U.S...
 
Blerg
Posts: 2517
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Air Italy Reports Losses Of €164 Million in 2018

Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:34 pm

I think they are highly inconsistent with their product. Business class leaves a lot to be desired while a while ago they leased an ancient B737 from Bulgaria Air. On top of that it seems like they were more concentrated on frivolous promotions than actually on consolidating their operations and coming up with a concrete business plan.
 
User avatar
eta unknown
Posts: 2440
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 5:03 am

Re: Air Italy Reports Losses Of €164 Million in 2018

Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:35 pm

Well I guess it could have been much worse if they maintained BKK/DEL...
 
Cointrin330
Posts: 1297
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: Air Italy Reports Losses Of €164 Million in 2018

Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:28 pm

I just don't see them surviving long term. Italy does not need two global airlines, let alone two dysfunctional ones.
 
DarthLobster
Posts: 392
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2016 3:40 am

Re: Air Italy Reports Losses Of €164 Million in 2018

Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:40 pm

It took them 8.5 months into the year to report last year’s earnings??
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 5898
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: Air Italy Reports Losses Of €164 Million in 2018

Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:49 pm

Italian aviation. Is there no money to be made? Is it operating costs or Italy being a low yielding mark? Both?
"I dance and laugh among the rotten"
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 17657
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: Air Italy Reports Losses Of €164 Million in 2018

Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:55 pm

Those numbers are Pet Airways bad, although not at all surprising. Makes AZ look great.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Accord
Posts: 29
Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2009 1:36 pm

Re: Air Italy Reports Losses Of €164 Million in 2018

Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:57 pm

Blerg wrote:
I think they are highly inconsistent with their product. Business class leaves a lot to be desired while a while ago they leased an ancient B737 from Bulgaria Air. On top of that it seems like they were more concentrated on frivolous promotions than actually on consolidating their operations and coming up with a concrete business plan.


They leased 2xE190 from Bulgaria Air wich are around 6-7 years old and far from ancient. The B737-300 is from Bulgarian ACMI operator - Tayaranjet and yes, this bird is kind of old - 27 years.
 
Cactusjuba
Posts: 196
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:06 am

Re: Air Italy Reports Losses Of €164 Million in 2018

Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:59 pm

It's OK, they have a rich Qatari boyfriend. This business model isn't about being profitable on it's own merits. It's about QR gaining TATL market share. Long game.
 
Blerg
Posts: 2517
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Air Italy Reports Losses Of €164 Million in 2018

Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:01 pm

Cactusjuba wrote:
It's OK, they have a rich Qatari boyfriend. This business model isn't about being profitable on it's own merits. It's about QR gaining TATL market share. Long game.


Yeah but hopefully they don't get carried away like Etihad did with all their investments. Qatar might be rich but I am sure they are not willing to finance a foreign adventure indefinitely. QR is different as it's their home airline.
 
User avatar
readytotaxi
Posts: 6707
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:09 am

Re: Air Italy Reports Losses Of €164 Million in 2018

Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:12 pm

Hey, if Alitalia can post losses why can't we, it's an Italian thing. :bouncy:
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
Growing older, but not up.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 6045
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Air Italy Reports Losses Of €164 Million in 2018

Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:15 pm

Where's that guy proclaiming that Air Italy would soon be the (effective) national airline of Italy?
 
User avatar
eta unknown
Posts: 2440
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 5:03 am

Re: Air Italy Reports Losses Of €164 Million in 2018

Mon Aug 19, 2019 4:19 pm

Cactusjuba wrote:
It's OK, they have a rich Qatari boyfriend. This business model isn't about being profitable on it's own merits. It's about QR gaining TATL market share. Long game.

Has anybody found any fares ex Middle East or India (or USA) that involves QR to MXP and connecting to IG to JFK/MIA?
 
smi0006
Posts: 2360
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:45 am

Re: Air Italy Reports Losses Of €164 Million in 2018

Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:12 pm

How many 737 were they due to receive by now? How much of an impact would this be having?

Without any short haul feed, not sure what they were planning. I do wonder if they could have a stronger relationship with IAG? What else could they do to recover? Doesn’t help AZ doesn’t need to make money either.
 
P1aneMad
Posts: 356
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:05 pm

Re: Air Italy Reports Losses Of €164 Million in 2018

Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:40 pm

Who is going to cover this massive loss?
Presumably it can get a capital infusion by its shareholders BUT that would mean both parties should contribute funds. Not only the Qataries and their bottomless pockets but also the majority owners Alisarda S.p.A.
If Qatar contributes more than its 49% share that would clearly breach the E.U. foreign ownership rules since it would become obvious that Alisarda S.p.A. is majority owner in name only.
 
IWMBH
Posts: 375
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:01 pm

Re: Air Italy Reports Losses Of €164 Million in 2018

Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:55 pm

Cactusjuba wrote:
It's OK, they have a rich Qatari boyfriend. This business model isn't about being profitable on it's own merits. It's about QR gaining TATL market share. Long game.


Yeah just like Etihad did with Air Berlin.... ooh wait... maybe you shouldn’t bet your future on the assumption that other airlines want to burn money just to keep you afloat.
 
User avatar
BasilFawlty
Posts: 910
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 11:23 am

Re: Air Italy Reports Losses Of €164 Million in 2018

Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:20 pm

How on earth can you loose 164 million euro while your fleet size is only a dozen of aeroplanes?
'Every year donkeys and mules kill more people than plane crashes'
 
kimimm19
Posts: 390
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:34 pm

Re: Air Italy Reports Losses Of €164 Million in 2018

Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:16 pm

Time for Qatar to step in and save the airline
 
arcticcruiser
Posts: 386
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:16 pm

Re: Air Italy Reports Losses Of €164 Million in 2018

Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:29 pm

kimimm19 wrote:
Time for Qatar to step in and save the airline


Or ditch it...
 
YIMBY
Posts: 648
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:32 pm

Re: Air Italy Reports Losses Of €164 Million in 2018

Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:49 am

P1aneMad wrote:
Who is going to cover this massive loss?
Presumably it can get a capital infusion by its shareholders BUT that would mean both parties should contribute funds. Not only the Qataries and their bottomless pockets but also the majority owners Alisarda S.p.A.
If Qatar contributes more than its 49% share that would clearly breach the E.U. foreign ownership rules since it would become obvious that Alisarda S.p.A. is majority owner in name only.


Funding the losses by any other way like debt will also end in effective control, which is equally against the EU law. (Not that I agree with the law, but even less do I agree with breaking the law.)
 
A380MSN004
Posts: 619
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2017 9:07 am

Re: Air Italy Reports Losses Of €164 Million in 2018

Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:59 am

BasilFawlty wrote:
How on earth can you loose 164 million euro while your fleet size is only a dozen of aeroplanes?


Sounds they expand too big too fast.
Italian overheads cost must be High aswell. Same for the leasing cost of the frame.
 
HighFlyerIT
Posts: 41
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:02 pm

Re: Air Italy Reports Losses Of €164 Million in 2018

Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:14 am

Apparently some of the costs come from the fact that they have excessive workforce they can't fire.

And let's not forget this refers to 2018, prior to the changes in strategy and top management, when they used to fly nearly-empty aircrafts to Bangkok, New Delhi and Mumbai, routes they then closed prematurely. It was also the time of crazy inconsistent operations, with intermittent feed and many last-minute cancelations, apparently for no reason.

In 2019 they solved most of these problems and they're aiming at a more stable growth at a slower pace, but the losses will probably be similar due to the MAX issue.

Anyway, apparently the losses are consistent with the business plan, shareholders already agreed to cover them, and confirmed that they want to proceed with the plan.

Oh, in the doc they also mention an Airbus narrow-body fleet. I guess they decided to ditch the MAXes.

Inviato dal mio Redmi Note 7 utilizzando Tapatalk
 
User avatar
eta unknown
Posts: 2440
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 5:03 am

Re: Air Italy Reports Losses Of €164 Million in 2018

Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:54 am

In Italy there is always a solution... QR can always forgive the lease payments... there are so many creative accounting rules that can be used, similar to AZ.
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 9579
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Air Italy Reports Losses Of €164 Million in 2018

Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:55 am

eta unknown wrote:
In Italy there is always a solution... QR can always forgive the lease payments... there are so many creative accounting rules that can be used, similar to AZ.

QR has one hand tied behind their back compared to AZ though, as they can’t appear to overstep foreign ownership/control laws.
 
Thibault973
Posts: 253
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:11 am

Re: Air Italy Reports Losses Of €164 Million in 2018

Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:13 pm

A380MSN004 wrote:

Sounds they expand too big too fast.
Italian overheads cost must be High aswell. Same for the leasing cost of the frame.


Calling going 14 to 15 aircraft “expand” is really kind of sad knowing circa 2006c Meridiana flew around 5 millions passengers a year with a fleet of around 40 aircraft. Then they merged with Eurofly which was also flying about 30 aircrafts then Air Italy which at 10 aircrafts at the time of the merger. Sad really.
 
Waterbomber2
Posts: 493
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: Air Italy Reports Losses Of €164 Million in 2018

Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:01 pm

As I said and repeated numerous times, this airline can be happy to make it to 2020.

-Two dozen B787's were "earmarked" to be moved from QR to Air Italy, now that plan is canceled and supposedly A330's will come instead. Haven't seen any yet. As predicted.

-Insane routes like DEL were announced and cancelled.
As predicted.

-Supposedly dozens of MAX were to join the fleet to expand from MXP. Not even a handful made it due to the grounding, no alternative capacity was hired. The grounding is a blessing for Air Italy, they get to milk Boeing instead of operating them at a loss.

-Wrong strategy of expanding and hubbing in MXP. MXP is too far from Milan, let alone from Turin, Genua, Firenze, Venice, Bologna. Yet it is too close to those cities for air service.

-Air Italy's parent holding Alisarda is 80% owner of Geasar, the airport managing company. The airport is doing extremely well, with a stellar growth in traffic and a planned expansion this winter. In July-August the airport is handling over 20.000 passengers per day.
So that is the saving grace.

I will repeat my opinion that instead of trying to build a hub in MXP, they should build a hub in OLB, their home airport.
Not only can they profit from the high season trafiic, but they can deseasonalise by offering seamless connections and it also brings in airport revenue.
From downtown Milan, OLB can be reached faster via LIN than driving or taking a train to MXP.
Connecting pax won't give a thought about whether they are connecting in OLB or MXP. In fact, it is much easier to connect in OLB.
 
User avatar
enilria
Posts: 9662
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

Re: Air Italy Reports Losses Of €164 Million in 2018

Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:09 pm

Ishrion wrote:
https://www.paddleyourownkanoo.com/2019/08/18/air-italy-reports-loss-of-e164-million-in-first-year-since-rebranding-with-qatari-money/

https://onemileatatime.com/air-italy-losses/

Revenue: €283.76 million
Loss: €164.18 million
58% of their revenue.

Since rebranding to much fanfare as Air Italy and launching a new business strategy the carrier has made less revenue, flown fewer miles and carried fewer passengers according to documents seen by the paper.


From onemileatatime:

- Revenue in 2018 was down to 283.76 million EUR from 360.33 million EUR the previous year
- Passenger numbers in 2018 were down to 1.91 million from 2.44 million the previous year
- Flown hours in 2018 were down to 42,283 from 50,592 the previous year
- The airline has reduced charter flying, which led to a loss of about 65 million EUR
- The fleet size was increased to 15 from 14 the previous year (that includes three 737 MAX planes, which are grounded at this point)


Not good after their failed expansion to Chicago, Bangkok, Delhi, and Mumbai and rapid expansion to the U.S...

25% of their fleet is the 737MAX and the real financial release said they had to pay a third party to operate sub-service which cost a ton of money that they expect to recover in damages from Boeing. This was mostly a lazy click-bait story by people who couldn't be bothered translating from Italian. So much of this huge loss was what would be called a "one-time loss" in U.S. financials.
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 9579
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Air Italy Reports Losses Of €164 Million in 2018

Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:11 pm

enilria wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
https://www.paddleyourownkanoo.com/2019/08/18/air-italy-reports-loss-of-e164-million-in-first-year-since-rebranding-with-qatari-money/

https://onemileatatime.com/air-italy-losses/

Revenue: €283.76 million
Loss: €164.18 million
58% of their revenue.

Since rebranding to much fanfare as Air Italy and launching a new business strategy the carrier has made less revenue, flown fewer miles and carried fewer passengers according to documents seen by the paper.


From onemileatatime:

- Revenue in 2018 was down to 283.76 million EUR from 360.33 million EUR the previous year
- Passenger numbers in 2018 were down to 1.91 million from 2.44 million the previous year
- Flown hours in 2018 were down to 42,283 from 50,592 the previous year
- The airline has reduced charter flying, which led to a loss of about 65 million EUR
- The fleet size was increased to 15 from 14 the previous year (that includes three 737 MAX planes, which are grounded at this point)


Not good after their failed expansion to Chicago, Bangkok, Delhi, and Mumbai and rapid expansion to the U.S...

25% of their fleet is the 737MAX and the real financial release said they had to pay a third party to operate sub-service which cost a ton of money that they expect to recover in damages from Boeing. This was mostly a lazy click-bait story by people who couldn't be bothered translating from Italian. So much of this huge loss was what would be called a "one-time loss" in U.S. financials.

This is about 2018, which predates any blame you can place on the MAX grounding.

The original Italian article is claiming 2019 results are expected to be similar because of the MAX grounding (in other words, Air Italy leadership claims things are improving and results would be much better this year if it wasn’t for MAX grounding).
 
horpdorp
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:59 pm

Re: Air Italy Reports Losses Of €164 Million in 2018

Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:29 pm

enilria wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
https://www.paddleyourownkanoo.com/2019/08/18/air-italy-reports-loss-of-e164-million-in-first-year-since-rebranding-with-qatari-money/

https://onemileatatime.com/air-italy-losses/

Revenue: €283.76 million
Loss: €164.18 million
58% of their revenue.

Since rebranding to much fanfare as Air Italy and launching a new business strategy the carrier has made less revenue, flown fewer miles and carried fewer passengers according to documents seen by the paper.


From onemileatatime:

- Revenue in 2018 was down to 283.76 million EUR from 360.33 million EUR the previous year
- Passenger numbers in 2018 were down to 1.91 million from 2.44 million the previous year
- Flown hours in 2018 were down to 42,283 from 50,592 the previous year
- The airline has reduced charter flying, which led to a loss of about 65 million EUR
- The fleet size was increased to 15 from 14 the previous year (that includes three 737 MAX planes, which are grounded at this point)


Not good after their failed expansion to Chicago, Bangkok, Delhi, and Mumbai and rapid expansion to the U.S...

25% of their fleet is the 737MAX and the real financial release said they had to pay a third party to operate sub-service which cost a ton of money that they expect to recover in damages from Boeing. This was mostly a lazy click-bait story by people who couldn't be bothered translating from Italian. So much of this huge loss was what would be called a "one-time loss" in U.S. financials.



I suspect your google translated Italian isn't as good as you think it is. Not to mention I have been unable to find an actual filing and the only one reporting this is Il Corriere (not that I think it's untrue, but you said "the real financial release" which I haven't been able to find. From Il Corriere:

Il Corriere wrote:
Per il 2019 «l’esercizio chiuderà con un risultato ancora in significativa perdita di entità similare a quella registrata nel 2018», stima il documento, «anche in considerazione dei costi derivanti dalla precauzionale messa a terra dei Boeing 737 Max». Spese impreviste che Air Italy dovrebbe vedersi rimborsate dalla società americana di costruzione degli aeromobili, ma che intanto sono una zavorra. Nell’intervista a giugno al Corriere Rossen Dimitrov, capo delle operazioni del vettore, non ha voluto fornire cifre.


This just suggests that 2019 numbers will be as bad as 2018 due to the payments associated with covering the 737 MAX and has nothing to do with the 2018 results. The MAX groundings all happened in 2019.
 
User avatar
andrefranca
Posts: 890
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2011 4:10 am

Re: Air Italy Reports Losses Of €164 Million in 2018

Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:53 pm

AZ's telenovela is as old as time......
Andre F. :blockhead:
 
Cointrin330
Posts: 1297
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: Air Italy Reports Losses Of €164 Million in 2018

Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:01 pm

I don't see Air Italy surviving and it has a better chance of closing down than AZ does. AZ is supported by the Italian Government, in spite of violations of EU rules, but AZ is an Italian institution and the country and the government will try every creative solution to keep it afloat, even it means merging it with Barilla (joke). Air Italy was created out of the remnants of Meridiana under the assumption that AZ would fail. That has not happened.
 
HighFlyerIT
Posts: 41
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:02 pm

Re: Air Italy Reports Losses Of €164 Million in 2018

Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:43 am

horpdorp wrote:
Not to mention I have been unable to find an actual filing and the only one reporting this is Il Corriere (not that I think it's untrue, but you said "the real financial release" which I haven't been able to find.

And where did you search it, on Google? You can easily view it from the official registry, by paying a fee.

Cointrin330 wrote:
I don't see Air Italy surviving and it has a better chance of closing down than AZ does. AZ is supported by the Italian Government, in spite of violations of EU rules, but AZ is an Italian institution and the country and the government will try every creative solution to keep it afloat, even it means merging it with Barilla (joke). Air Italy was created out of the remnants of Meridiana under the assumption that AZ would fail. That has not happened.

A company doesn't survives when nobody is willing to put money in it anymore. Meridiana is a long-time loss-making company. This didn't stop Aga Khan putting money in it, over and over. Why would he stop now?

Inviato dal mio Redmi Note 7 utilizzando Tapatalk
 
User avatar
enilria
Posts: 9662
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

Re: Air Italy Reports Losses Of €164 Million in 2018

Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:46 pm

enilria wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
https://www.paddleyourownkanoo.com/2019/08/18/air-italy-reports-loss-of-e164-million-in-first-year-since-rebranding-with-qatari-money/

https://onemileatatime.com/air-italy-losses/

Revenue: €283.76 million
Loss: €164.18 million
58% of their revenue.

Since rebranding to much fanfare as Air Italy and launching a new business strategy the carrier has made less revenue, flown fewer miles and carried fewer passengers according to documents seen by the paper.


From onemileatatime:

- Revenue in 2018 was down to 283.76 million EUR from 360.33 million EUR the previous year
- Passenger numbers in 2018 were down to 1.91 million from 2.44 million the previous year
- Flown hours in 2018 were down to 42,283 from 50,592 the previous year
- The airline has reduced charter flying, which led to a loss of about 65 million EUR
- The fleet size was increased to 15 from 14 the previous year (that includes three 737 MAX planes, which are grounded at this point)


Not good after their failed expansion to Chicago, Bangkok, Delhi, and Mumbai and rapid expansion to the U.S...

25% of their fleet is the 737MAX and the real financial release said they had to pay a third party to operate sub-service which cost a ton of money that they expect to recover in damages from Boeing. This was mostly a lazy click-bait story by people who couldn't be bothered translating from Italian. So much of this huge loss was what would be called a "one-time loss" in U.S. financials.

The translated article in Italian says:

The first twelve months
The negative economic data is the result of at least three factors: the investments necessary for the relaunch, the stoppage of the 737 Max that forced to replace the aircraft with others hired, and some not-so-lucky moves such as the start of some routes of long haul - India and Thailand - then canceled.
https://www.corriere.it/cronache/19_ago ... 1ebc.shtml?
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 9579
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Air Italy Reports Losses Of €164 Million in 2018

Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:48 pm

enilria wrote:
enilria wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
https://www.paddleyourownkanoo.com/2019/08/18/air-italy-reports-loss-of-e164-million-in-first-year-since-rebranding-with-qatari-money/

https://onemileatatime.com/air-italy-losses/

Revenue: €283.76 million
Loss: €164.18 million
58% of their revenue.



From onemileatatime:



Not good after their failed expansion to Chicago, Bangkok, Delhi, and Mumbai and rapid expansion to the U.S...

25% of their fleet is the 737MAX and the real financial release said they had to pay a third party to operate sub-service which cost a ton of money that they expect to recover in damages from Boeing. This was mostly a lazy click-bait story by people who couldn't be bothered translating from Italian. So much of this huge loss was what would be called a "one-time loss" in U.S. financials.

The translated article in Italian says:

The first twelve months
The negative economic data is the result of at least three factors: the investments necessary for the relaunch, the stoppage of the 737 Max that forced to replace the aircraft with others hired, and some not-so-lucky moves such as the start of some routes of long haul - India and Thailand - then canceled.
https://www.corriere.it/cronache/19_ago ... 1ebc.shtml?

Sloppy and poor reporting is not just limited to English language media.
 
User avatar
enilria
Posts: 9662
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

Re: Air Italy Reports Losses Of €164 Million in 2018

Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:53 pm

Polot wrote:
enilria wrote:
enilria wrote:
25% of their fleet is the 737MAX and the real financial release said they had to pay a third party to operate sub-service which cost a ton of money that they expect to recover in damages from Boeing. This was mostly a lazy click-bait story by people who couldn't be bothered translating from Italian. So much of this huge loss was what would be called a "one-time loss" in U.S. financials.

The translated article in Italian says:

The first twelve months
The negative economic data is the result of at least three factors: the investments necessary for the relaunch, the stoppage of the 737 Max that forced to replace the aircraft with others hired, and some not-so-lucky moves such as the start of some routes of long haul - India and Thailand - then canceled.
https://www.corriere.it/cronache/19_ago ... 1ebc.shtml?

Sloppy and poor reporting is not just limited to English language media.

Is it possible they don't have a fiscal year that ends in December?
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 9579
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Air Italy Reports Losses Of €164 Million in 2018

Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:28 pm

enilria wrote:
Polot wrote:
enilria wrote:
The translated article in Italian says:

The first twelve months
The negative economic data is the result of at least three factors: the investments necessary for the relaunch, the stoppage of the 737 Max that forced to replace the aircraft with others hired, and some not-so-lucky moves such as the start of some routes of long haul - India and Thailand - then canceled.
https://www.corriere.it/cronache/19_ago ... 1ebc.shtml?

Sloppy and poor reporting is not just limited to English language media.

Is it possible they don't have a fiscal year that ends in December?

Even if they do not relaunch and start of Max grounding were 12 months apart (March 2018 vs March 2019). They can’t both be blamed as major components of a loss in a single fiscal year.
 
Lufthansa
Posts: 2608
Joined: Thu May 20, 1999 6:04 am

Re: Air Italy Reports Losses Of €164 Million in 2018

Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:41 pm

Poor investment. Bad branding it doesn't look even remotely Italian,
just like its trying to align itself with Qatar and the big problem of
MXP being split from the short haul. If QR really wanted this to proceed
they'd need to set up a proper international hub at MXP, otherwise they
should have stuck to the charter business. But hey that loudmouth in
DOH knows everything right?
 
rjmf22
Posts: 130
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 10:37 pm

Re: Air Italy Reports Losses Of €164 Million in 2018

Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:08 pm

A part of me feels as if this airline isn't even real in a sense. No real business model/structure, no real route strategies, etc etc. Find it amazing that they managed to make €283.76 million in the first place.
United Airlines
 
Waterbomber2
Posts: 493
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: Air Italy Reports Losses Of €164 Million in 2018

Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:36 pm

Lufthansa wrote:
Poor investment. Bad branding it doesn't look even remotely Italian,
just like its trying to align itself with Qatar and the big problem of
MXP being split from the short haul. If QR really wanted this to proceed
they'd need to set up a proper international hub at MXP, otherwise they
should have stuck to the charter business. But hey that loudmouth in
DOH knows everything right?


A hub in MXP is their plan, but costs in MXP are high and the bulk of its traffic is driven by the LCC's.
It will cost them hundres of millions of incurred losses until the hub becomes stable and potentially breaks even.
It's still better than what they have now though, no doubt.
After 3 years, they have little to show for their Air Italy take over, as predicted.

The losses are however quite contained. I would have expected a lot worse.
According to sources, QR would have paid 100 million to get its share in IG.
With years of losses incurred, that money is long gone. Negative ROI.

Also don't forget that Air Italy is getting subsidies amounting to tens of millions for the LIN-OLB and FCO-OLB service.
A huge battle raged between AZ and IG over this but AZ agreed to take a step aside and let IG have the routes, but no subsidies are involved anymore I believe.
Air Italy's top is already blaming AZ for losses amounting to 6 millions for this route.

I think that AAB will send the airline into insolvency next year or who knows even this winter.
They'll blame the MAX saga for it to keep their hands clean and move on to their next project, but they'll keep their shareholding in OLB airport and focus on developing third party traffic, which is working well.

Since all my previous predictions have turned out true, you know where Air Italy stands.
 
FatCat
Posts: 971
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:02 pm

Re: Air Italy Reports Losses Of €164 Million in 2018

Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:02 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:

I will repeat my opinion that instead of trying to build a hub in MXP, they should build a hub in OLB, their home airport.
Not only can they profit from the high season trafiic, but they can deseasonalise by offering seamless connections and it also brings in airport revenue.
From downtown Milan, OLB can be reached faster via LIN than driving or taking a train to MXP.
Connecting pax won't give a thought about whether they are connecting in OLB or MXP. In fact, it is much easier to connect in OLB.

This is highly inconsistent speaking.
It's like saying that IB competitor has to place its hub in ACE. Lot of business there - no tourism at all, right?
Aeroplane flies high
Turns left, looks right
 
User avatar
eta unknown
Posts: 2440
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 5:03 am

Re: Air Italy Reports Losses Of €164 Million in 2018

Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:40 am

And the population/catchment area of Olbia- oh let's just say all of North Sardinia is what? Please let's use some economic sense with these Olbia hub fantasies...
 
spannacomo
Posts: 103
Joined: Wed May 30, 2018 5:38 pm

Re: Air Italy Reports Losses Of €164 Million in 2018

Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:51 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
Air Italy was created out of the remnants of Meridiana under the assumption that AZ would fail. That has not happened.


Are you aware Alitalia could not even reach the winter season? Money are running out and the government just fell down, making it impossible to rescue the company.
Even if they manage somehow to survive, they will be smaller and more focused on FCO leaving room to IG in Milan. Which is where the tickets are sold in Italy. The market will decide who is going to be more successful, Az in Rome or IG in Milan.
 
User avatar
eta unknown
Posts: 2440
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 5:03 am

Re: Air Italy Reports Losses Of €164 Million in 2018

Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:40 pm

+1. And let's not forget MXP's longhaul catchment area includes Torino/Genova/Verona/Bergamo/and across the border Ticino.
 
FCOTSTW
Posts: 180
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:14 pm

Re: Air Italy Reports Losses Of €164 Million in 2018

Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:14 pm

Let' s make things clear...

Revenues - EXPENSES = (1) if this is positive number, this is a PROFIT, (2) if this is a negative number, this is a LOSS.

If One Mile at a Time reports that Air Italy is having MASSIVE losses, it is simply not true, as Air Italy had € 119.58 of PROFITS (yes, the airline makes money!).

Do not you think that the analysts at Air Italy and at Qatar Airways forecast a decline in revenue due to the rebranding? You bet! This is their job. When rebranding any product, you do a short- and a long-term plan with the forecasted profits. A 58% revenue-to-loss ratio is a heck of a number! Did you check the same ratio one of other airlines? Please do!
 
dampfnudel
Posts: 440
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:42 am

Re: Air Italy Reports Losses Of €164 Million in 2018

Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:20 pm

Cactusjuba wrote:
It's OK, they have a rich Qatari boyfriend. This business model isn't about being profitable on it's own merits. It's about QR gaining TATL market share. Long game.

Italy is probably the worst market in Europe at the moment if you’re interested in a “long game” for any enterprise.
A313 332 343 B703 712 722 732 73G 738 739 741 742 744 752 762 76E 764 772 AT5 CR9 D10 DHH DHT F27 GRM L10 M83 TU5

AA AI CO CL DE DL EA HA KL LH N7 PA PQ SK RO TW UA YR
 
Waterbomber2
Posts: 493
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: Air Italy Reports Losses Of €164 Million in 2018

Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:50 pm

eta unknown wrote:
+1. And let's not forget MXP's longhaul catchment area includes Torino/Genova/Verona/Bergamo/and across the border Ticino.


Have you ever even tried to go from any cities you mentionned to MXP?
It's much easier, reliable, comfortable to take a flight from any of the cities you mentionned to OLB and connect in OLB.

You and AAB have obviously never been to Northern Italy.
There are airports every 50km in Northern italy and it's much more convenient and attractive to serve them individually from a hub rather than expect your pax to lose half a day to congregate to MXP.

The population in Sardinia or OLB doesn't matter, because more than half of Sardinians are emigrated.
I know a Sardinian that works as security inspector at LIN just as an example.

QR put a hub in DOH, not much of a catchement area there either.
OLB has a huge demand in the summer, so that can be smartly combined to build a year-round hub.
Add the fact that Air Italy owns OLB, and they are virtually paying airport taxes to themselves, and there is a way that it can work out.
I won't say a DOH-style hub, but enough to break-even in the off season and make money in the summer.
 
HighFlyerIT
Posts: 41
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:02 pm

Re: Air Italy Reports Losses Of €164 Million in 2018

Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:24 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
Have you ever even tried to go from any cities you mentionned to MXP?
It's much easier, reliable, comfortable to take a flight from any of the cities you mentionned to OLB and connect in OLB.

You and AAB have obviously never been to Northern Italy.
There are airports every 50km in Northern italy and it's much more convenient and attractive to serve them individually from a hub rather than expect your pax to lose half a day to congregate to MXP.

The population in Sardinia or OLB doesn't matter, because more than half of Sardinians are emigrated.
I know a Sardinian that works as security inspector at LIN just as an example.

QR put a hub in DOH, not much of a catchement area there either.
OLB has a huge demand in the summer, so that can be smartly combined to build a year-round hub.
Add the fact that Air Italy owns OLB, and they are virtually paying airport taxes to themselves, and there is a way that it can work out.
I won't say a DOH-style hub, but enough to break-even in the off season and make money in the summer.


You're dreaming!
Short-haul travelers prefer direct flights even if the airport is a little further away. TRN is failing while MXP (1.5-2 hrs from Turin) is growing.
For most long-haul routes, OLB is off-track from northern Italy. It can't compete with MUC, ZRH or CDG. If it doesn't work for FCO, why would it work for OLB?
Last but not least: little O/D demand means lower yields. For a smaller airline, based in an unconvenient position, it means failure.

Inviato dal mio Redmi Note 7 utilizzando Tapatalk
 
User avatar
lesfalls
Posts: 3280
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Air Italy Reports Losses Of €164 Million in 2018

Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:36 pm

dampfnudel wrote:
Cactusjuba wrote:
It's OK, they have a rich Qatari boyfriend. This business model isn't about being profitable on it's own merits. It's about QR gaining TATL market share. Long game.

Italy is probably the worst market in Europe at the moment if you’re interested in a “long game” for any enterprise.

If that was the case I doubt that LH would be investing in Air Dolomiti still with plans to double its fleet in the next couple of years:

https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/luft ... its-fleet/

This news comes at a time that LH is expanding more then ever their failing low-cost carrier (EW) and has high losses on the majority of their european flights.
Lufthansa: Einfach ein bisschen mehr.
 
ewt340
Posts: 839
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: Air Italy Reports Losses Of €164 Million in 2018

Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:45 pm

When would they replace all those B737NG and abandoned B737MAX and take some of the Qatar's old A320/A321?

Sounds like a better plan since they are using A330-200 for their long haul operations.
 
spannacomo
Posts: 103
Joined: Wed May 30, 2018 5:38 pm

Re: Air Italy Reports Losses Of €164 Million in 2018

Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:52 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
eta unknown wrote:
+1. And let's not forget MXP's longhaul catchment area includes Torino/Genova/Verona/Bergamo/and across the border Ticino.


Have you ever even tried to go from any cities you mentionned to MXP?
It's much easier, reliable, comfortable to take a flight from any of the cities you mentionned to OLB and connect in OLB.

You and AAB have obviously never been to Northern Italy.
There are airports every 50km in Northern italy and it's much more convenient and attractive to serve them individually from a hub rather than expect your pax to lose half a day to congregate to MXP.

The population in Sardinia or OLB doesn't matter, because more than half of Sardinians are emigrated.
I know a Sardinian that works as security inspector at LIN just as an example.

QR put a hub in DOH, not much of a catchement area there either.
OLB has a huge demand in the summer, so that can be smartly combined to build a year-round hub.
Add the fact that Air Italy owns OLB, and they are virtually paying airport taxes to themselves, and there is a way that it can work out.
I won't say a DOH-style hub, but enough to break-even in the off season and make money in the summer.

I live in Northern Italy since I was born and I think your line of thinking is the same that lead AZ where they are, a perennial bankrupt airline.
I look at IG as the first company to ever try to create an hub in MXP with a lot of curiosity. No, AZ never tried to make MXP their hub unless you think keeping the crews in FCO and paying them to fly to MXP every day before starting to work was compatible with a successful strategy. It was not of course, it was only a way for the government to bring back AZ where they belong, FCO, and where they can continue to fail forever. I have no idea if IG will succeed but I think it is a fair try and above all they are not spending Italian taxpayers money, they are spending private capital.
As for your OLB hub dream, I am sorry but it is a so ludicrous idea that it is not worth the time to comment it. Go on dreaming and making a fool of yourself.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos