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WALmsp
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:05 am

A lot of people here are arguing the airline should leave. That is exactly what the NIMBY"s would like
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JohnAudiR18
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:10 am

AA needs to drop Mesa in general. God awful CRJ’s and poor service. I do find it annoying about the noise. Maybe don’t buy a house in a known approach corridor.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:12 am

Blimpie wrote:

Do we have a lawyer around here versed in AV law who can attest to whether the city of LB has legal standing to even pursuit a criminal case against Mesa/AA?


The city has filed criminal charges against 4 airlines since 2002, with JetBlue being the most prominent, The JetBlue case went to its final appeal, where JetBlue lost in May.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
Brickell305
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:24 am

Airlines operate in a free market. No one is forcing them to fly to LGB. If the city’s noise ordinances make LGB too onerous to serve, they can freely drop service to the airport. The fact that they haven’t is testament to the fact that that’s not the case.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:34 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
What I don’t get is the industry—airlines, builders and ultimately consumers—billions upon billions in meeting Stage 3 and Stage 4 noise standards but we’re still stuck with noise restrictions like B-52s and Boeing 707s are screaming over LGB citizens. Really, the APU on a A220 makes more noise than the engines when it taxis by; the flaps and gear are often the primary noise generators on approach. Lastly, there’s darned few new airports where the locals were taken by surprise by the noise levels.

At my old base, the FAA spent millions buying out old homeowners or upgrading their roofs with sound insulation. Some people thought it was an open ended deal and figured they’d wait til retirement, sell their old home to the FAA and move to Florida. Surprise, the new C-5 engines brought the noise footprint inside the base perimeter and they lost out. The few remaining houses are now in a flattened development and close to worthless.

GF


There you go, using logic and facts against NIMBY's who only have their on-retainer attorney to rely on for their justice!! You smart people really know how to ruin a good screaming match!

Okay, sarcasm off. But I know exactly how you feel - all of Southern California knows of discussions with NIMBY's who are fine with decibel-busting volumes from military traffic as loud as they were when the jet engine first appeared. But mention a passenger jet? They were horrified that a passenger plane would be allowed anywhere NEAR their neighborhoods. "Why, the volume alone is orders of magnitude louder than anything in the military! And the traffic! Oh, my God, the traffic! The whole county will become a parking lot! And our property values! All those passenger planes within 20 miles of a house - you KNOW that's a price-killer!"

Every time I hear about the LGB NIMBY's, I would imagine they are ready to use the line "why, I can't hear the 405 and 710 freeway because of that airport!"
 
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usxguy
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:53 am

The noise footprint of a CRJ 900 is probably one of the quieter commercial jets operating in and out of LGB right now...

I wonder if AA is just going to pony up the $$ for the fine since they are the ones who set the schedule and have schedule/operational control over what YV does.
xx
 
HugoJunkers
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:05 am

LAXintl wrote:
The city prosecutor is taking the rare step of filing criminal charges against a carrier that operates at Long Beach Airport, alleging it violated the city’s noise ordinance.

City Prosecutor Doug Haubert, in a email sent late Thursday, said Mesa Airlines, doing business as American Eagle—an affiliate of American Airlines—has repeatedly violated the city’s strict regulations on aircraft noise, even after intervention from the city. “Before filing this case in court, Airport staff was in communication with American Eagle to inform them of Long Beach’s ordinance and to encourage their compliance,” Haubert said in the email.

Long Beach’s noise ordinance forbids commercial plane operations between 10 p.m. and 7 a.m., among other restrictions. Airlines are first issued a warning and small fine, and then they are fined progressively steeper penalties if violations continue. As a last resort, the ordinance allows criminal prosecution after failure to adhere to local law, though it is rare for the city to take this step. Haubert said in the email that the Prosecutor’s Office has filed just four previous criminal cases against airlines since 2002.


https://www.presstelegram.com/2019/08/1 ... ordinance/
https://lbpost.com/news/noise-ordinance ... ch-airport

=

Some might remember city did similar with JetBlue previously to achieve improved compliance.


This really sound quite silly of the city. A fine, if sufficient, should be sufficient to discourage operation out of curfew hours. It might be that unusual headwinds, diversions, congestion on the runway is causing the problem. What are they operating? Have they put B727 or Tridents back in operation or is it still Bombardier CRJ800 and Embraer Jets? The latter are hardly noticeable on landing.
 
alasizon
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:38 am

usxguy wrote:
I wonder if AA is just going to pony up the $$ for the fine since they are the ones who set the schedule and have schedule/operational control over what YV does.



DiamondFlyer wrote:
kbmiflyer wrote:
Some of this falls on Mesa. They tend to over schedule their CRJ900's with 30-40 minute turns for the whole day. If anything goes wrong during the day they are hopelessly behind and cannot catch up, which results in the last flight of the day being late.


No, that's on AA. Mesa has no control of scheduling of flights, AA does. Mesa takes what their given and flies it.


This concept is wrong. AA provides the schedules and Mesa agrees to them. If something doesn't work, they provide feedback and it gets changed. However the schedules are built with plenty of pad time. Mesa's inability to operate a schedule even remotely on time due to MX and crew issues is not AA's fault (which is why AA is pulling planes from YV). The one LGB flight in question is scheduled with over an hour of ground time in PHX and Mesa still can't get it out on time plus it has an additional 30 minute arrival buffer before the soft curfew and then another hour before the penalties start to kick in. When you are running 1.5 plus hours late, that indicates a problem with your operation, not the way the major carrier scheduled you.

For reference, YV has longer turns scheduled compared to every other regional to try and help with their poor performance but it doesn't make a difference if there are no flyable aircraft available to fly the flight.

AirFiero wrote:
How many flights per day does Mesa fly out of LGB, and to where? If I were Mesa (or AA) I’d pull Mesa out ASAP.

3x Daily CR9 to PHX with an added CR7 on OO during certain schedules but due to the slot limits in LGB, it can't be switched to all OO and the market does not support Mainline AA.
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Blueknows
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:30 am

LGB is a joke. B6 builds new terminal, and they want them out your to Loud...no
International. Listen you cant have it both ways. Ok after curfew the plane cxld so now lgb customers complain. Aa always cxld flights to PHX. AC has mx issues...sorry you cant run up engine till 7am. Give me a break. LGB if you hate it so Much just close airport.
 
Lrockeagle
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:29 pm

I live under left base for the largest C-130 training base in the world and I find this hilarious. I hear multiple hercs on the ramp right now, it never stops. And it doesn’t bother me
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I got $20 says AA takes their 787's with GE powerplants. Just a hunch. Any takers?
 
adam47150
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:51 pm

HAHAHAHA. These LGB NIMBYs would have a heart attack if they came to visit me. I live on the Indiana side of the 17R approach into SDF. UPS planes at all hours of the day and night, and I love every minute of it!
 
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:33 pm

alasizon wrote:
usxguy wrote:
I wonder if AA is just going to pony up the $$ for the fine since they are the ones who set the schedule and have schedule/operational control over what YV does.



DiamondFlyer wrote:
kbmiflyer wrote:
Some of this falls on Mesa. They tend to over schedule their CRJ900's with 30-40 minute turns for the whole day. If anything goes wrong during the day they are hopelessly behind and cannot catch up, which results in the last flight of the day being late.


No, that's on AA. Mesa has no control of scheduling of flights, AA does. Mesa takes what their given and flies it.


This concept is wrong. AA provides the schedules and Mesa agrees to them. If something doesn't work, they provide feedback and it gets changed. However the schedules are built with plenty of pad time. Mesa's inability to operate a schedule even remotely on time due to MX and crew issues is not AA's fault (which is why AA is pulling planes from YV). The one LGB flight in question is scheduled with over an hour of ground time in PHX and Mesa still can't get it out on time plus it has an additional 30 minute arrival buffer before the soft curfew and then another hour before the penalties start to kick in. When you are running 1.5 plus hours late, that indicates a problem with your operation, not the way the major carrier scheduled you.

For reference, YV has longer turns scheduled compared to every other regional to try and help with their poor performance but it doesn't make a difference if there are no flyable aircraft available to fly the flight.

AirFiero wrote:
How many flights per day does Mesa fly out of LGB, and to where? If I were Mesa (or AA) I’d pull Mesa out ASAP.

3x Daily CR9 to PHX with an added CR7 on OO during certain schedules but due to the slot limits in LGB, it can't be switched to all OO and the market does not support Mainline AA.


AA might decide that 3 small jets a day aren’t worth the bother of dealing with CRIMINAL charges.
 
Gimpo
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:52 pm

AA needs to cut these flights and add frequencies to communities who appreciate the air service.
 
amcnd
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:17 pm

Or just pay the $300 fine and be done with it.. $3.95 surcharge to each pax just in case. Let the city get what they want $$$$ and be done with it. And AA writes what time the PHX-LGB flight runs. Mesa decided where that aircraft comes from. And there AA performance is not so goo lately AA has pulled 4 aircraft from there contact.. and there still not performing to the min threshold...
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:28 pm

Or make the passengers and city happy and follow the published schedule. This could involve moving schedule an hour(?) earlier.
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cledaybuck
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:43 pm

Blimpie wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
UPlog wrote:



Companies are charged criminally all the time.


Yeah, usually by the Feds for high crimes, not some ultra left wing city council who has draconian laws relating to the airport and punishes airlines for landing a plane even 5 minutes after "curfew".


And, there I think lies a valid question from a legal standpoint; as aviation is federally regulated (not in the sense as it was back in the day), does the city council have legal standing to file criminal charges?

Like it or not for LB residents, ultimate regulatory authority in aviation in this case falls under the FAA/USDOT. While local government can (try to) pass noise abatement ordinances, the last I checked, failure to comply with them hardly construes a criminal offense.

Do we have a lawyer around here versed in AV law who can attest to whether the city of LB has legal standing to even pursuit a criminal case against Mesa/AA?

Our current Noise Ordinance was grandfathered under the Federal Aircraft Noise Capacity Act (ANCA) of 1990. This act does not permit the enactment of airport flight/noise restrictions without federal approval, which has been withheld in all cases to-date.

From: http://www.lgb.org/information/noise_ab ... stions.asp
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solracfunk14
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:03 pm

Dumb decision by LGB city, i'm CSULB alumni and lived nearby the Pyramid and had to take many flights out from LAX due the fewer options from LGB except by JB.

Now they want to reduce even more.

I didn't remember those complains back on the C-17 and another MD test flights.

In the end Californian politicians being Californian politicians.
 
DCAfan
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:05 pm

I looked at the average domestic air fares published by BTS for the 48 contiguous states for all 5 LA basin airports in 1Q 2019. The results are as following:

SNA - $363
LAX - $336
ONT - $323
BUR - $262
LGB - $216

With yields so low I doubt that any airline makes dime one at LGB (with the possible exception of Hawaiian).
 
ScottB
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:50 pm

amcnd wrote:
Or just pay the $300 fine and be done with it.. $3.95 surcharge to each pax just in case. Let the city get what they want $$$$ and be done with it.


What the local residents want (and by extension, the City) is not money. They want Mesa to not operate flights during the curfew period.

Blueknows wrote:
LGB is a joke. B6 builds new terminal, and they want them out your to Loud...no
International. Listen you cant have it both ways. Ok after curfew the plane cxld so now lgb customers complain.


The City built the new terminal primarily for B6. They certainly never promised B6 that they'd be able to operate international flights and there were a sufficient number of vocal LB residents to kill the idea. They've been operating at LGB long enough to understand that the airport is a sensitive issue and that there are plenty of folks nearby who don't view the economic benefits of commercial air service there to be worth the trade-off for negative environmental impacts.

What's worse is that B6 figuratively gave Long Beach the middle finger over its curfew and the FIS rejection: from 2016 through 2018, B6 busted the curfew over 950 times. In 2016, when they should have been on their best behavior to get the FIS approved, they had 133 operations after the 11 pm harder curfew (and 251 after 10 pm which include the 133).

SNA has a hard curfew. If you're late, you're diverting or cancelling unless it's an actual emergency. Other airlines manage to operate within the rules at SNA and even seem to be eager to serve that airport. It's not clear to me why B6 and YV have so much difficulty with operating on-time to LGB.

WN has had 1,850 landings at LGB in 2019 through the end of May. They broke the 11 pm curfew 0 times.

DCAfan wrote:
I looked at the average domestic air fares published by BTS for the 48 contiguous states for all 5 LA basin airports in 1Q 2019.


While LGB is the lowest-yielding airport in the region, I'd caution against using airport average fare numbers as a direct proxy. You also need to take into account average passenger trip length which will be higher at LAX than the regional airports -- so LAX is probably worse than your numbers would suggest.
 
alasizon
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:57 pm

AirFiero wrote:
AA might decide that 3 small jets a day aren’t worth the bother of dealing with CRIMINAL charges.


AA isn't the one facing criminal charges. YV needs to actually demonstrate they can fly the schedule.

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Or make the passengers and city happy and follow the published schedule. This could involve moving schedule an hour(?) earlier.

When that was done in 2018, YV actually broke the curfew more as they would take that plane to substitute for another flight and delay out LGB. It also resulted in lots of overnight delays for the LGB pax. There was even a schedule where it moved up by three hours (17:00/18:00 departure depending on time of year) and it still broke curfew regularly.

The flight is scheduled in at 21:26 (giving YV a 34 minute buffer for crew delays and a 1:34 buffer for MX, ATC & WX) and they still can't make it. Plus, moving it earlier would drop pax numbers off the edge of a cliff as the connections just wouldn't be there in PHX. It already departs as early as possible in PHX to make the majority of connections possible.

amcnd wrote:
Or just pay the $300 fine and be done with it.. $3.95 surcharge to each pax just in case. Let the city get what they want $$$$ and be done with it. And AA writes what time the PHX-LGB flight runs. Mesa decided where that aircraft comes from. And there AA performance is not so goo lately AA has pulled 4 aircraft from there contact.. and there still not performing to the min threshold...

YV has been paying the fines; the problem is that LGB considers them a habitual offender (they are) which is why the criminal charges were filed as LGB views it as a complete disregard for the rule and treating it more as a fee than a fine.

Gimpo wrote:
AA needs to cut these flights and add frequencies to communities who appreciate the air service.

LGB is the only LA Basin market to have shrunk since the merger. BUR has added 2x DFW (and now a 6th PHX this winter), ONT has upgauged almost every flight, SNA replaced 320s with 738s.
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ztarizona
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:07 pm

I love everyone on here complaining that there is enforcement of rules for parties to a contract that was signed, and you get people screaming “not fair!!” as if there is somehow a clause in the contract for fairness- what you say, there is a grace period for unforseen events such as weather or items beyond an airlines’ control? Hmm methinks that is called “fairness”.

Wonder how much of these small minds also abhor the EPA for keeping coal ash out of their rivers streams and drinking water. Its the same mentality that is destroying this country at the moment. If ya dont like the rules, dont fly here... duh!
“The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.” ― Issac Asimov
 
strfyr51
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:49 pm

LGB is soon going to find itself in the position that MRY is in. Monterey had hissie fits about jet noise to the point that the major Jet operators quit flying there altogether!
They didn't want corporate jets they didn't wat commercial jets. Well? What in hell Do they want? I'll tell you, NOTHING!!
 
MrBretz
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:23 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
LGB is soon going to find itself in the position that MRY is in. Monterey had hissie fits about jet noise to the point that the major Jet operators quit flying there altogether!
They didn't want corporate jets they didn't wat commercial jets. Well? What in hell Do they want? I'll tell you, NOTHING!!


I notice that nowdays almost all the traffic at Monterey is commuter and private jets. And it looks like it is 30 to 40 a day. Many years ago I flew in there on AirCal on 737s. So things have changed. It surprises me . The take off and landing patterns seem to avoid the very expensive properties. And I have been told people in the area, Pebble Beach in particular, are conservatives. Could it be people just don’t like airport noise? And the friends I have up there drive to SFO for flights anyway. I don’t think LGB will ever be that way.
 
nine4nine
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:25 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
LGB is soon going to find itself in the position that MRY is in. Monterey had hissie fits about jet noise to the point that the major Jet operators quit flying there altogether!
They didn't want corporate jets they didn't wat commercial jets. Well? What in hell Do they want? I'll tell you, NOTHING!!


Add Lake Tahoe airport to that list as well. I would love to see that happen at LGB. That airport is a dump anyway. Let them go back to being some quiet non revenue making airfield that has a handful of public charter airlines that last about a year like the 1990’s pre B6 era.

Any airport/community that operates and enforces with an iron fist communist mentality does not deserve to operate period. Let the revenue for the city and tourist $ go elsewhere.
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Gimpo
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:47 pm

alasizon wrote:
Gimpo wrote:
AA needs to cut these flights and add frequencies to communities who appreciate the air service.

LGB is the only LA Basin market to have shrunk since the merger. BUR has added 2x DFW (and now a 6th PHX this winter), ONT has upgauged almost every flight, SNA replaced 320s with 738s.


Love it. Hopefully AA continues to grow the other LA Basin markets. Thank you for info.
 
MrBretz
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:50 pm

JetBlue is by far the largest carrier at LGB. I noticed they have cut service close to 35% in the last year. If they leave, the airport will be like MRY or Tahoe. All the others have a small fraction of the takeoffs and landings. You can view the monthly traffic on the airport’s website.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:56 pm

ztarizona wrote:
I love everyone on here complaining that there is enforcement of rules for parties to a contract that was signed, and you get people screaming “not fair!!” as if there is somehow a clause in the contract for fairness- what you say, there is a grace period for unforseen events such as weather or items beyond an airlines’ control? Hmm methinks that is called “fairness”.

Wonder how much of these small minds also abhor the EPA for keeping coal ash out of their rivers streams and drinking water. Its the same mentality that is destroying this country at the moment. If ya dont like the rules, dont fly here... duh!


LGB is a public use facility paid for by public funds as is I-405 right close by. Maybe the denizens of Long Beach should vote to impose a noise curfew on the 405 closing it from 11pm to 6am.

GF
 
Newark727
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:04 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
LGB is a public use facility paid for by public funds as is I-405 right close by. Maybe the denizens of Long Beach should vote to impose a noise curfew on the 405 closing it from 11pm to 6am.

GF


Maybe that's what the Caltrans construction projects are really for?
 
nine4nine
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:05 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
ztarizona wrote:
I love everyone on here complaining that there is enforcement of rules for parties to a contract that was signed, and you get people screaming “not fair!!” as if there is somehow a clause in the contract for fairness- what you say, there is a grace period for unforseen events such as weather or items beyond an airlines’ control? Hmm methinks that is called “fairness”.

Wonder how much of these small minds also abhor the EPA for keeping coal ash out of their rivers streams and drinking water. Its the same mentality that is destroying this country at the moment. If ya dont like the rules, dont fly here... duh!


LGB is a public use facility paid for by public funds as is I-405 right close by. Maybe the denizens of Long Beach should vote to impose a noise curfew on the 405 closing it from 11pm to 6am.

GF



Or better yet the 710. Which is always gridlocked day and night with miles of semi trucks going to and from the Port of Long Beach. Talk about noise and pollution......
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MrBretz
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:07 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
ztarizona wrote:
I love everyone on here complaining that there is enforcement of rules for parties to a contract that was signed, and you get people screaming “not fair!!” as if there is somehow a clause in the contract for fairness- what you say, there is a grace period for unforseen events such as weather or items beyond an airlines’ control? Hmm methinks that is called “fairness”.

Wonder how much of these small minds also abhor the EPA for keeping coal ash out of their rivers streams and drinking water. Its the same mentality that is destroying this country at the moment. If ya dont like the rules, dont fly here... duh!


LGB is a public use facility paid for by public funds as is I-405 right close by. Maybe the denizens of Long Beach should vote to impose a noise curfew on the 405 closing it from 11pm to 6am.

GF


Novel idea! The noise off the 405 is horrible all the time.
 
bennett123
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:57 pm

Curious to know the impact on B6 and Mesa of flying 60 minutes earlier.

Would passenger numbers drop much.

Also interested to know how many of the passengers are local.
 
alasizon
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:18 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Curious to know the impact on B6 and Mesa of flying 60 minutes earlier.

Would passenger numbers drop much.

Also interested to know how many of the passengers are local.


Moving the flight 60 minutes earlier from PHX drops off a large number of connections but like I mentioned upthread, they already have a 34 minute buffer time; if you can't get the flight there in that time frame, that shows bigger issues than how the flight is scheduled.
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CarlosSi
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:26 pm

Mesa should've just played the victim and diverted to LAX every time.

Surely there are a handful of passengers on board responsible for choosing to have such strict noise abatement ordinances, so the crew should be clear that landing at the airport of choice will not be possible because of decisions made by neighbors of arriving pax!

Not that I'm against noise ordinances. Heck some aircraft fly as low as 2200 feet (elevation here is about 600, so that's 1600 AGL) above my house sometimes and I'm a good 10 miles from the airport(it's normally 2600 MSL)! It's not incredibly loud although there are a few times I was a bit surprised.
 
YoungDon
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:59 am

One thing people need to keep in mind when talking about aircraft noise is that while it's true that aircraft engines are quieter than in past years, we're in a PBN environment now where a huge majority of aircraft are flying precise, repeatable paths every single day enabled by RNAV/RNP. This is especially true in busy airspace areas such as the LA basin.

In years past before the FAA implemented the metroplex airspace redesigns and added a bunch more RNAV and RNP STARs/DPs, planes flew more divergent paths over the ground than they do today. This resulted in more people getting noise exposure, but on a much more occasional basis. Now, there are many cases where the same line of properties gets blasted by noise every day (particularly at airports where wind patterns are extremely consistent day to day - like the LA area). I'm an aviation enthusiast and a pilot, and even I wouldn't want aircraft, particularly large jets, flying over my house every few minutes all day at 2,500 feet. They are quieter these days but still have a noticable impact up to about 3,000 feet.

Yes, the people on the immediate final approach path are going to get noise no matter what, but across the country there are a lot more cases of what I'd call repeatable noise where a select few people further away from the airport are bearing the brunt of noise impacts.

In the case of LGB, the city council is doing what their constituents want. We may not all like it, but we don't live there. Until the people decide they want more service and are OK with more or later flights, or the airlines pull out and the people miss the service and decide they're OK with more or later flights, the airlines should follow the rules imo.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:24 am

Nice try, but no gets. I’d bet 85% of arrivals to LGB fly one of the charted visuals with the normal scatter of flight paths, the 30 is mostly overwater until aligned with the runway. The people under the last 3-5 miles have been hearing airplanes overhead since Douglas started building planes there.

PBN, at KLGB anyway, has zero to do with the noise ordinance. It’s just NIMBYs who bought near a well-known airport and now complaining—seriously California. If the citizens complained about road noise should the city fathers close 405 and 710? How ‘bout closing the Coaster rail service?

GF
 
LAXBUR
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:50 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
LAXBUR wrote:
mia wrote:

I agree 100%. Why don't they do this?


Alaska sent delayed flights to LAX and bussed often when I worked at SNA years ago. I assume it still happens. Passengers did not think “what a stupid rule”. They were still upset with the airline for being delayed. So I don’t think the airline would “win” passenger sympathy going that route.


Why should the airline catch grief from passengers if it is something out of their control? I couldn't work as an airline pilot or flight attendant. If a passenger gave me an attitude about a weather or mechanical delay I would say something that isn't very nice.

The airlines need to start finding anything they can complain about with LGB. If the ramp needs to be resurfaced, send them a bill for the additional wear on tires. Inoperative airport equipment? Send a bill for any costs incurred from the delayed flight. Two can play at this petty game.


When I was a baby faced 22 year old I was told by passengers that they would personally sue me and ruin my life...because there was an inch of ice on their plane in Portland creating a delay. In general, humans are entitled a-holes. Put them in an airport and they completely lose all sense of reality.

Otherwise, I don't agree with your sentiment. If an airline chooses to fly to an airport with a curfew, they need to follow that curfew or not fly there.
 
YoungDon
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:06 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Nice try, but no gets. I’d bet 85% of arrivals to LGB fly one of the charted visuals with the normal scatter of flight paths, the 30 is mostly overwater until aligned with the runway. The people under the last 3-5 miles have been hearing airplanes overhead since Douglas started building planes there.

PBN, at KLGB anyway, has zero to do with the noise ordinance. It’s just NIMBYs who bought near a well-known airport and now complaining—seriously California. If the citizens complained about road noise should the city fathers close 405 and 710? How ‘bout closing the Coaster rail service?

GF


I'd bet you're very wrong and the vast majority of initial approaches are PBN-based. Same with the departures, and they are louder. Keep in mind we're discussing the latter part of the initial approach, not the final approach specifically - final often does get radar vectors. But quite honestly, it doesn't really matter - 92% of all arrivals/departures at LGB are to 30 and there are 100ish arrivals a day. Most aircraft approach from the east and 4 of the 5 charted STARS are PBN. Of the two that feed the airport from the east, one has feeds traffic onto the final from a fix a couple of miles southeast of SNA, and one feeds the airport from a fix just northwest of SNA. Aircraft are at 4,000 feet and descend after crossing those fixes and still have a few miles to go before even making it to Long Beach over places like Fountain Valley, Huntington Beach, etc., and yes they are flying very similar flight paths, repeatedly. I doubt they even use the conventional STAR unless an aircraft is not equipped to fly an RNAV/RNP STAR, and the commercial fleet is universally equipped at this point. Of course a controller from SCT can feel free to chime in if there is significant use of Tandy Five, but I seriously doubt it. I do agree that the folks on final are probably getting decreased noise compared to what they have gotten in the past, but they are not the only ones being affected by it.

But beyond just the case of LGB, I'm speaking more in general. Fact of the matter is, most people don't like airplane noise. Period. They don't care about what the noise was in 1995 or whatever - right now, in 2019, they don't like it. The level of pushback varies from community to community, but it's not just a California thing or whatever political axe folks have to grind. City of Phoenix sued the FAA majorly when they changed the flight paths at Sky Harbor when implementing their metroplex redesign. That area isn't known to be especially NIMBYish, but they had an issue with increased noise and they made it known. Burbank has noise issues too, a lot of folks in Studio City and Sherman Oaks are not happy because departures to the south are crossing over their communities, repeatedly, instead of over the 170/101 - due to the implementation of repeatable PBN at Van Nuys and conflicts with LAX departures making it difficult to do what they used to be able to do on a consistent basis pre-metroplex redesign.

Noise is different now than it was in the past, it hits fewer people, but hits them harder. I don't think its quite as simple as folks want to make it. Do I think there's a NIMBY aspect? Absolutely. Do I also think there's also merit to the idea that certain communities may want to limit it? Sure, especially in densely populated areas like the LA Valley. And if they don't want flights at LGB past 10, it's on the airlines to make that happen.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:45 am

LAXBUR wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
LAXBUR wrote:

Alaska sent delayed flights to LAX and bussed often when I worked at SNA years ago. I assume it still happens. Passengers did not think “what a stupid rule”. They were still upset with the airline for being delayed. So I don’t think the airline would “win” passenger sympathy going that route.


Why should the airline catch grief from passengers if it is something out of their control? I couldn't work as an airline pilot or flight attendant. If a passenger gave me an attitude about a weather or mechanical delay I would say something that isn't very nice.

The airlines need to start finding anything they can complain about with LGB. If the ramp needs to be resurfaced, send them a bill for the additional wear on tires. Inoperative airport equipment? Send a bill for any costs incurred from the delayed flight. Two can play at this petty game.


When I was a baby faced 22 year old I was told by passengers that they would personally sue me and ruin my life...because there was an inch of ice on their plane in Portland creating a delay. In general, humans are entitled a-holes. Put them in an airport and they completely lose all sense of reality.

Otherwise, I don't agree with your sentiment. If an airline chooses to fly to an airport with a curfew, they need to follow that curfew or not fly there.


It isn't a perfect world. Things can happen that are beyond the airline's control. If there was no ill intent then the airport needs to let it go. It seems you and LBG only see in black and white. Operating at LGB seems to be more trouble than it is worth.
 
Blerg
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:05 am

How are the airport's numbers now that B6 started shrinking? Were they affected or did they manage to compensate somehow?
 
Passedv1
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:14 am

LAXBUR wrote:

...If an airline chooses to fly to an airport with a curfew, they need to follow that curfew or not fly there.


I don't have a problem with that concept, just mail the DOT check back every month. No federal dollars for airports open less than 24 hours.

I have been in houses next to freeways and they have every bit of a gripe about noise as these airport NIMBYs, we just put up with the whining of the airport NIMBY's more for some reason.
 
Blueknows
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:27 am

I love this. B6 customers have weather delays in east coast. Sorry on would you like to fly to lax/bur/ont? LGB CUSTOMERS complain about noise...but if delayed and have to fly to other airport they flip out. You cant have it both ways. If LAX/ONT give B6 the green light for expansion ,and some incentives....bye bye LGB
 
rlwynn
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:26 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
If the citizens complained about road noise should the city fathers close 405 and 710? How ‘bout closing the Coaster rail service?

GF


What is that?
I can drive faster than you
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 6529
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:17 pm

rlwynn wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
If the citizens complained about road noise should the city fathers close 405 and 710? How ‘bout closing the Coaster rail service?

GF


What is that?


Whatever they call Amtrak Surfline or MetroLink service.

I really don’t get why people get their way over noise at airports. Stay at a Interstate motel or house within 1/2 of the Interstate, it’s miles worse than a few planes at 11:05pm.

GF
 
ScottB
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:30 pm

Passedv1 wrote:
No federal dollars for airports open less than 24 hours.

I have been in houses next to freeways and they have every bit of a gripe about noise as these airport NIMBYs, we just put up with the whining of the airport NIMBY's more for some reason.


Federal law (the Airport Noise and Capacity Act of 1990) does preempt new noise restrictions on airports. But the Long Beach ordinance preceded that law and the Congress saw fit to grandfather any existing local restrictions in ANCA.

Residents near freeways have legitimate gripes about noise, and state highway departments often respond to those complaints with sound insulation walls next to freeways. But a sound insulation wall does little to attenuate noise from an aircraft several hundred feet overhead.

Blueknows wrote:
If LAX/ONT give B6 the green light for expansion ,and some incentives....bye bye LGB


B6 could move to ONT tomorrow. There's no shortage of gates at ONT and plenty of room to build new terminals. They don't want to go to ONT because it's going to be a worse market for them if they have to compete with WN in all the short-haul city-pairs. They'd move to LAX in a New York minute if they could but there just aren't enough gates and there likely won't be for a decade or more.

Blerg wrote:
How are the airport's numbers now that B6 started shrinking? Were they affected or did they manage to compensate somehow?


For the first six months of this year (which compares the B6 schedule pre- and post-reduction) passenger numbers are down 16%. B6 is down by 306,000 boardings year-over-year while WN is only up by 127,000 (plus HA is up by 25,000). Part of the reduction is WN's lower load factor, part of it is WN's smaller aircraft size, and part of it is B6's slot-squatting; landings were down by 13% year-over-year from an average of 49.2 daily (near full slot utilization) to 42.7 daily.
 
DCAfan
Posts: 143
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:08 pm

B6 is on the waiting list for SNA. Their A220-300 has the runway performance to fly nonstop from SNA to JFK and BOS. We'll see what happens.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:18 pm

rlwynn wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
If the citizens complained about road noise should the city fathers close 405 and 710? How ‘bout closing the Coaster rail service?

GF


What is that?

I believe it is called a strawman.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
Dieuwer
Posts: 2490
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:22 pm

From a infrastructure point of view: Nobody if forcing residents to live next to the airport. Nobody is forcing them to live next to highways. Don't like the noise? Go live somewhere else.
From a community point of view: residents have the right to legislate whatever they like. No plastic bottles, no late night bars, etc. If they like to legislate noise controls they can do so. Then airliners can either adhere to those controls. And if they disagree then they can leave that airport.
 
User avatar
exFWAOONW
Posts: 738
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:32 pm

Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:51 pm

Blimpie wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
UPlog wrote:



Companies are charged criminally all the time.


Yeah, usually by the Feds for high crimes, not some ultra left wing city council who has draconian laws relating to the airport and punishes airlines for landing a plane even 5 minutes after "curfew".


And, there I think lies a valid question from a legal standpoint; as aviation is federally regulated (not in the sense as it was back in the day), does the city council have legal standing to file criminal charges?

Like it or not for LB residents, ultimate regulatory authority in aviation in this case falls under the FAA/USDOT. While local government can (try to) pass noise abatement ordinances, the last I checked, failure to comply with them hardly construes a criminal offense.

Do we have a lawyer around here versed in AV law who can attest to whether the city of LB has legal standing to even pursuit a criminal case against Mesa/AA?

This.

It's just like local communities trying to send their police officers onto trains to write the crew a ticket for blocking a crossing against a local ordinance. They don't realize the police officers are trespassing and subject to arrest for interfering with interstate commerce which is the baliwick of the federal government. I think the airlines can use the same argument to good effect.
Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?
 
MDGLongBeach
Posts: 221
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 6:03 pm

Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:40 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
From a infrastructure point of view: Nobody if forcing residents to live next to the airport. Nobody is forcing them to live next to highways. Don't like the noise? Go live somewhere else.
From a community point of view: residents have the right to legislate whatever they like. No plastic bottles, no late night bars, etc. If they like to legislate noise controls they can do so. Then airliners can either adhere to those controls. And if they disagree then they can leave that airport.

Spot on!
 
nws2002
Posts: 921
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:50 pm

When I worked air ambulance, I remember the company fighting with LGB over the curfew as well. They wanted the patient's chart and a bunch of other information that we were unable and unwilling to provide due to privacy laws. Most airports just have you sign a form attesting that it was an air medical flight. We fought with LGB for months one time and were told repeatedly that we should've planned better. Ok, next time we will plan an emergent life-saving flight within your curfew hours.

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