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cledaybuck
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:20 pm

LAXBUR wrote:
Interesting people keep throwing around the freeway and road noise argument. You do realize road noise is mitigated in many places via sound walls? Many cities have bans on noisy brakes. There are truck routes. Some urban streets don’t allow “cruising” to avoid congestion and noise. Many residential streets have “no turn” rules to reduce pass throughs. Some cities ban deliveries and trash pick ups during nighttime hours near residential property. Stop acting like only airlines and airports have noise restrictions and regulations and that they’re somehow victimized. It is 100% a straw man argument and not even a good one.

Yes, NIMBYism can be a huge problem but Long Beach and it’s residents are acting within the law and it is their right to choose how their airport operates. An airline as a business then decides to operate at said airport within those rules. If there are fines for not operating within those rules they need to account for that in their operation. It isn’t that difficult.

If an airline leaves Long Beach it is because they aren’t making money there. John Wayne has an even more restrictive curfew and noise regulations. You don’t see airlines running away from there. Look at Long Beach fares, they’re very low. They’re low because they can’t command a higher fare. That has nothing to do with a curfew.

Where is the "like" button.
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Polot
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:23 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
If they can restrict airports, why not other interstate noise polluters?
GF
Local jurisdictions can create "quiet zones" for train horn noise under certain conditions. Some zones were even grandfathered in. I've also seen "No Engine Brake" signs in cities all over the country.

On top of that there are noise restrictions on vehicles. At the federal, state, and often local level. If your car is making excessive noise it can be cited in most jurisdictions. Europe especially is starting to target this hard.
 
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hawaiian717
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:46 pm

DCAfan wrote:
I believe that LGB is a marginal station for AA.
It won't take much for them to pull out.


Though this lawsuit and fines wouldn't affect AA's margins. Mesa is the one paying the fines and being sued as they're the operating carrier that can't get the flight in on time even with the schedule buffer previously discussed.

PHX-LGB is a legacy America West route at one time served with 737s, but I believe Mesa took over the majority of frequencies back in the America West Express days and continued operating it as US Airways Express and now American Eagle.
 
YoungDon
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:06 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
Ok, but that's not what this is about. This is about an airline that keeps violating curfew.

You decide to look at the small picture (filing criminal charges because the airline violates curfew) and refuse to look at the bigger picture (NIMBY's moving in after an airport has been established and then complaining about the noise).

As others have mentioned, the freeways make much more noise (and at every hour of the day and night) than the airport, the airport brings in a lot of jobs and money; it they cannot stand the airport noise, they should never have moved to that area, plain and simple.

The freeways are a straw man argument.

The "bigger picture" is that I believe coporations should have to follow the rules. If the airlines cannot stand following the rules, they never should have served that airport, plain and simple.


Agreed. It's not really that hard to understand. There are rules that the airlines agreed to abide by. The ones that aren't following them are getting penalized as they understood they would. Southwest can follow the rules so they don't have this issue. The issue is Mesa, not the community. It's pretty cut and dry. The local authorities and the community have long since made their opinion known on this issue. Outsiders opinions on the matter aren't really relevant here.

If the airlines leave LGB, then I guess the community will have a decision to make about what it finds more important - the lost revenue and flights or the quiet. The rules aren't new and are perfectly legal. If all of the airlines just followed the law, there would be no issue.
 
alasizon
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:05 pm

hawaiian717 wrote:
DCAfan wrote:
I believe that LGB is a marginal station for AA.
It won't take much for them to pull out.


Though this lawsuit and fines wouldn't affect AA's margins. Mesa is the one paying the fines and being sued as they're the operating carrier that can't get the flight in on time even with the schedule buffer previously discussed.

PHX-LGB is a legacy America West route at one time served with 737s, but I believe Mesa took over the majority of frequencies back in the America West Express days and continued operating it as US Airways Express and now American Eagle.


LGB was one of the first stations to go to a mostly CR9 operation once the CR9s showed up. At one point PHX-LGB was 5x CR9 and 2x CR2 in the America West days. Mid-2009 the 200s went away and sometime in 2015/2016 LGB dropped down to 4x daily CR9 and then in 2017 3x daily with the occasional CR7 on certain schedules (some schedules Saturdays dropped down to just 1x CR9). The market simply doesn't perform well and even what business traffic used to exist, more and more seem to be taking LAX & SNA.
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:46 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
If they can restrict airports, why not other interstate noise polluters?
GF
Local jurisdictions can create "quiet zones" for train horn noise under certain conditions. Some zones were even grandfathered in. I've also seen "No Engine Brake" signs in cities all over the country.


Sure, I’ve seen those signs, but LGB is CLOSED to interstate transport during the curfew, not remotely the same thing. CLOSE rail or highways, then it’s similar.

GF
 
nine4nine
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:31 am

Tear the place down!!!. Let the pathetic NIMBYS win. Boeing doesn’t use it post C-17 production and half the old Douglas property is now commercial real estate and industrial parks. B6 can easily split its LGB assets between LAX/BUR/ONT and WN, DL, HA and AA can easily transfer the few flights they have elsewhere. Let all those aholes in Long Beach sit on the 405 to LAX then Wait in hour long security lines. if they want to catch a flight, and let Downtown Long Beach continue to dive into more of a cesspool of feces and urine soaked boulevards than it already is. Let them cry the blues when the convention center is a ghost town and the local businesses can’t fill tables or makes sales goals because the only people roaming the streets are the hobos, derelicts and gang members.

Has anyone taken cherry ave or Long Beach blvd down from the 405 to the shoreline? It’s like being in a 3rd world country. The roads are filled with potholes and the streets are lined with every sort of scum and villiany you’d expect to find in a Star Wars cantina. But you won’t see the money from the curfew fines applied because they must be going to support the high roller lifestyle of the local politicians.
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stasisLAX
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Fri Aug 23, 2019 4:14 am

alasizon wrote:
stasisLAX wrote:
Seriously, Mesa has a tight schedule and they've repeatedly missed the curfew. Progressive warnings and fines hasn't changed their behavior, and now the residents and the city council is furious.


A thirty four minute gap to the soft curfew and an hour and a half gap to the hard curfew is not a tight schedule. The 22:00 curfew only penalizes you if you are late due to crew or airline issues; MX, ATC & WX get till the 23:00 curfew (of course you have to prove that to LGB).


Agreed, the occasional violation is to be expected. The Bixby Knolls and Golf Course area neighborhoods are mainly (but not solely) the neighborhoods complaining. The NIMBYS are complaining about the frequent violations to the Airport Authority and LB city council, which gets in a tizzy when these tax paying neighborhoods get vocal. I used to live in Bixby Knolls...
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
Passedv1
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:09 pm

ztarizona wrote:
Passedv1 wrote:
LAXBUR wrote:

...If an airline chooses to fly to an airport with a curfew, they need to follow that curfew or not fly there.


I don't have a problem with that concept, just mail the DOT check back every month. No federal dollars for airports open less than 24 hours.

I have been in houses next to freeways and they have every bit of a gripe about noise as these airport NIMBYs, we just put up with the whining of the airport NIMBY's more for some reason.



Sorry friend as multiple people have stated, there is a new regulation which does not permit noise curfews. However, the existing rule was grandfathered so there you have it. You cannot continue to argue that they are somehow not eligible to keep their grandfather status when the DOT has already determined they may keep it. "I don't like the law, this shouldn't be like this, I feel strongly about this!" OK, well write to your congressman or Senator and get the law changed. That does not preclude the local government from filing criminal charges for consistent law-breakers in their neighborhood!



I am not saying they are breaking the law. I am saying the federal government should stop giving federal dollars to airports open less than 24 hours as a policy choice. Maybe Torrance wants the money. Give the money you were giving to LGB to TOA in addition to the money they are already giving TOA. Use the money to upgrade the terminal and build parking facilities. Maybe even extend the runway a thousand feet. Now you have a true regional airport, available 24 hours, and is only 5 miles away from LGB.
 
tommer419
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:26 pm

I think a lot of you are missing the big picture of this development. Yes, it can be argued that noise curfews are unreasonable. Yes, the residents should have known what they were getting into when living near an airport. But the issue at hand here seems to be ignored by most posters: YV has, for many years, ran a systematically unreliable operation. Even with the padding on the turn times in PHX, they still fail to not only make the soft curfew, but often the hard one as well. If this is how they perform into an airport with these types of restrictions, imagine the performance into airports without restrictions. I can tell you from experience as I work at an airport where Mesa's RON flight, which is scheduled for approximately 2200, routinely arrives after midnight, or cancels. This isn't about LGB. Yeah, maybe they're unreasonable, but it's about time that someone finally stands up to Mesa and says we've had enough of your poor performance. The mismanagement of this regional airline simply can't be overstated. I've seen first hand how poorly run they are and I'm relieved that LGB has the gall to do something about it. Passengers with little to no aviation knowledge know Mesa by name. That's not a good thing. This disregard for performance has gone on for far too long. But at the end of the day, whose name is on the side of the aircraft? AA. And why, after years of abysmal performance, does AA continue to contract with YV? That’s a question I can’t answer. It’s truly puzzling.
 
CobaltScar
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Sat Aug 24, 2019 3:48 pm

I've changed my mind about LGB and hope jetblue stays there and grows it, finds a path forward with it. I'm a huge fan of the small airports. As someone who has never lived in South Cali, is Long Beach far enough south of LA to avoid the evil traffic?
 
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WALmsp
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Sat Aug 24, 2019 4:12 pm

CobaltScar wrote:
I've changed my mind about LGB and hope jetblue stays there and grows it, finds a path forward with it. I'm a huge fan of the small airports. As someone who has never lived in South Cali, is Long Beach far enough south of LA to avoid the evil traffic?


Different area; different traffic.
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MrBretz
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Sat Aug 24, 2019 4:35 pm

rr.
WALmsp wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:
I've changed my mind about LGB and hope jetblue stays there and grows it, finds a path forward with it. I'm a huge fan of the small airports. As someone who has never lived in South Cali, is Long Beach far enough south of LA to avoid the evil traffic?


Different area; different traffic.


Yes, different but heavy anyway. I live in Orange County. I recently told visitors that I would pick them up at SNA or even LGB. For LAX, I recommended SuperShuttle or Uber. Luckily, they came into SNA. I avoid driving at “rush” hours when possible. But you got to learn how to chill.
 
11C
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Sat Aug 24, 2019 4:55 pm

Polot wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
If they can restrict airports, why not other interstate noise polluters?
GF
Local jurisdictions can create "quiet zones" for train horn noise under certain conditions. Some zones were even grandfathered in. I've also seen "No Engine Brake" signs in cities all over the country.

On top of that there are noise restrictions on vehicles. At the federal, state, and often local level. If your car is making excessive noise it can be cited in most jurisdictions. Europe especially is starting to target this hard.


Yes, and judging by all the megaphone exhausts, and Harleys spewing noise, they really enforce noise limits in California. Just like they enforce the 55 mph speed limit for vehicles towing a trailer.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:48 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
If they can restrict airports, why not other interstate noise polluters?
GF
Local jurisdictions can create "quiet zones" for train horn noise under certain conditions. Some zones were even grandfathered in. I've also seen "No Engine Brake" signs in cities all over the country.


Sure, I’ve seen those signs, but LGB is CLOSED to interstate transport during the curfew, not remotely the same thing. CLOSE rail or highways, then it’s similar.

GF

Obviously, it’s not completely closed, otherwise you couldn’t violate the curfew. Technically, it appears you can operate after 11 if you are quiet enough (I don’t know if any aircraft meets those requirements).
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
MrBretz
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:51 pm

11C wrote:
Polot wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
Local jurisdictions can create "quiet zones" for train horn noise under certain conditions. Some zones were even grandfathered in. I've also seen "No Engine Brake" signs in cities all over the country.

On top of that there are noise restrictions on vehicles. At the federal, state, and often local level. If your car is making excessive noise it can be cited in most jurisdictions. Europe especially is starting to target this hard.


Yes, and judging by all the megaphone exhausts, and Harleys spewing noise, they really enforce noise limits in California. Just like they enforce the 55 mph speed limit for vehicles towing a trailer.


I will try your argument to the next police officer who pulls me over while I drive alone in the carpool lanes on the 405.
 
11C
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Sun Aug 25, 2019 12:00 am

MrBretz wrote:
11C wrote:
Polot wrote:
On top of that there are noise restrictions on vehicles. At the federal, state, and often local level. If your car is making excessive noise it can be cited in most jurisdictions. Europe especially is starting to target this hard.


Yes, and judging by all the megaphone exhausts, and Harleys spewing noise, they really enforce noise limits in California. Just like they enforce the 55 mph speed limit for vehicles towing a trailer.


I will try your argument to the next police officer who pulls me over while I drive alone in the carpool lanes on the 405.


Please do, but my argument is that enforcement is spotty, not that you should drive solo in the carpool lane. Odds are, you won’t be pulled over, anyway, so go for it.
I believe we were discussing the curfew at LGB. I agree with those who find the noise ordinance at the airport ironic in a city surrounded by freeways, but what do I know? I also find that they don’t enforce noise regulations on motorcycles and cars because on any give day I see dozens of Harleys that are more damaging to my hearing than the several dozen A320’s that depart and arrive every day at the airport. I see the noise barriers on the freeways, but I still hear all that freeway noise. So, yep, still seems stupid. And if you consider what Inglewood residents deal with every day, 24 hours a day, I don’t shed many tears for those in Long Beach.
 
YoungDon
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Sun Aug 25, 2019 4:12 am

11C wrote:
MrBretz wrote:
11C wrote:

Yes, and judging by all the megaphone exhausts, and Harleys spewing noise, they really enforce noise limits in California. Just like they enforce the 55 mph speed limit for vehicles towing a trailer.


I will try your argument to the next police officer who pulls me over while I drive alone in the carpool lanes on the 405.


Please do, but my argument is that enforcement is spotty, not that you should drive solo in the carpool lane. Odds are, you won’t be pulled over, anyway, so go for it.
I believe we were discussing the curfew at LGB. I agree with those who find the noise ordinance at the airport ironic in a city surrounded by freeways, but what do I know? I also find that they don’t enforce noise regulations on motorcycles and cars because on any give day I see dozens of Harleys that are more damaging to my hearing than the several dozen A320’s that depart and arrive every day at the airport. I see the noise barriers on the freeways, but I still hear all that freeway noise. So, yep, still seems stupid. And if you consider what Inglewood residents deal with every day, 24 hours a day, I don’t shed many tears for those in Long Beach.


Perhaps they don't want to add more noise to the already significant freeway noise? Just a thought.
 
B737Captain1980
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:00 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
B737Captain1980 wrote:
Back in my commuter days, we used to fly LAX-SNA. On one occasion we pushed back from the gate at 10:30pm, wishfully thinking we could make it to SNA prior to 11:15pm. The curfew is at 11pm, however you used to be able to ask for a 15 minute extension under certain criteria. Even with LAX tower allowing us to cut in front of numerous jets in front of us, we got to the outer marker LEMON at 11:15pm, meaning we would be touching down at 11:17pm. Executed a go around at 1000' and headed back to LAX. Very angry passengers not understanding nor caring what the consequences of landing were. Busting the noise sensors and landing may make you the hero for a few minutes, but you'll be the chief pilots whipping boy for a month if you land.


And, your noise footprint from 1,000’ and go wasn’t vastly different from just landing EXCEPT landing would be a violation.

GF



The EMB-120 doesn’t make much of a noise “footprint”
 
MrBretz
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:48 am

Here’s something about noise abatement at LGB from the airport website. I see modest penalties. No wonder the curfew is disobeyed. I see nothing about criminal charges. I wonder what Mesa actually did.

http://www.lgb.org/information/noise_ab ... ns.asp#304
 
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LAXintl
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Thu Mar 05, 2020 4:46 pm

Update:

Mesa Airlines plead no contest to 14 misdemeanor charges and will pay $84,000 fine per court agreement. Carrier also agrees to pay $6,000 fine for any subsequent noise ordinance violations.

Airline to pay $84,000 for breaking late-night noise rules
https://lbpost.com/news/noise-long-beac ... a-airlines

=
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janders
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Thu Mar 05, 2020 5:05 pm

Its not like Mesa does not know when they depart Phoenix for the quick hop over to Long Beach that they will be breaking the noise ordinance.

Really no excuse for continual and willful ignorance of the ordinance.

The $6,000 per future violation is far more than what they get paid per hour to operate the flight from AA, so it has some teeth.
"We make war that we may live in peace." -- Aristotle
 
strfyr51
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Thu Mar 05, 2020 5:24 pm

Let's face it! LGB doesn't want commercial service, Why airlines fly in there? Is beyond me Jet America was the last big deal in LGB and they advertised heavily against LAX. Then lobbied the DOT for a ly wanted share of improvement funds that went to LAX,SNA,BUR and ONT. When they in fact only wanted a boutique airline they could cajole and Brow beat. Long Beach has no right to have much more than a Car Hop Airline! Any carrier that flies in there? Deserves what they get if it's more than 2 flights per day..
 
alasizon
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:00 pm

janders wrote:
Its not like Mesa does not know when they depart Phoenix for the quick hop over to Long Beach that they will be breaking the noise ordinance.

Really no excuse for continual and willful ignorance of the ordinance.

The $6,000 per future violation is far more than what they get paid per hour to operate the flight from AA, so it has some teeth.


AA has already changed the scheduled twice to make it near impossible for Mesa to break the ordinance. The first time was moving up the departure from 9 PM to 8PM, Mesa still broke it a handful of times and delayed the flight overnight 6 times to prevent the violation. Now, it is a 6PM departure (a waste of aircraft time by having it be such an early RON) and it still has been broken once.
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mysterzip
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:39 pm

1. Rules are rules.
2. This is a repeated offense.
3. Noise, engine efficiency laws (as well as compromise from innovative companies) led to car engines being more efficient and quieter. Same with aircraft engines.

The city doesn’t want you to operate outside of their hours. It’s up to you (the airline) to figure out how best to serve the market without violating laws.

The FAA angle posted by Blimpie is interesting.
 
nine4nine
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:11 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
Let's face it! LGB doesn't want commercial service, Why airlines fly in there? Is beyond me Jet America was the last big deal in LGB and they advertised heavily against LAX. Then lobbied the DOT for a ly wanted share of improvement funds that went to LAX,SNA,BUR and ONT. When they in fact only wanted a boutique airline they could cajole and Brow beat. Long Beach has no right to have much more than a Car Hop Airline! Any carrier that flies in there? Deserves what they get if it's more than 2 flights per day..



Agree. I passionately hate that cesspool of a so-called airport and its business unfriendly practices. The city is so hell bent on focusing solely on some noise issues of a measly 45 or so daily commercial slot allotments. What about the persistent R22 helicopters going in and out Every 3 minutes or General aviation that crowds the skies all day long Doing touch and gos? What about Downtown? The place is a dump with sidewalks full of poop and vomit from the night walkers, how about the riverbed tent city, or the pollution, gridlock and noise from big rigs leaving the port on both streets and 710/405, pollution from the refineries, Potholed boulevards, Sewage dumps in the port, and let’s not get started on the crime and gangs in this city. Why harshly punish the businesses who are the most responsible for bringing in outside dollars that help local businesses, the local economy, and investment. The city has for a long time turned a blind eye to the real problems of this city and its disgusting. Just tear LGB down, the city does not deserve to have an airport.
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rlwynn
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Thu Mar 05, 2020 8:39 pm

Well they have an airport. And Airlines pay them to use it. Take it up with them.
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UPlog
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Thu Mar 05, 2020 9:44 pm

Good for LGB. Mesa needs to follow the rules.

And for those that call LGB unfriendly, all they ask is for operators to comply with the well-known regulations that are in place.

I don't hear anyone call SNA unfriendly place, and they have a hard curfew and won't even let you commence the approach or push back if you are running late for more than a few minutes.
I fly your boxes
 
asteriskceo
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LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Thu Mar 05, 2020 10:46 pm

People on airliners *REALLY* hate LGB. I love my city and I love my airport. The city isn’t asking for much, in my opinion. We’ll survive without the offenders. WN is ready to pull the trigger on LGB-PHX if Mesa/AA can’t figure out how to operate within the confines of the law.


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asteriskceo
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Thu Mar 05, 2020 10:50 pm

UPlog wrote:
I don't hear anyone call SNA unfriendly place, and they have a hard curfew and won't even let you commence the approach or push back if you are running late for more than a few minutes.


Ding Ding Ding. I have a feeling the hatred of LGB is politically motivated.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
11C
Posts: 172
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Re: LGB files criminal charges against Mesa Airlines for noise violations

Fri Mar 06, 2020 12:29 am

Polot wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
If they can restrict airports, why not other interstate noise polluters?
GF
Local jurisdictions can create "quiet zones" for train horn noise under certain conditions. Some zones were even grandfathered in. I've also seen "No Engine Brake" signs in cities all over the country.

On top of that there are noise restrictions on vehicles. At the federal, state, and often local level. If your car is making excessive noise it can be cited in most jurisdictions. Europe especially is starting to target this hard.


Yes, I can tell by all the Harleys with straight pipes, which rattle your fillings loose, that these ordinances are heavily enforced. Same for the 1.6L Honda’s with a megaphone exhaust. While we’re talking unenforced laws, how about 55 mph for any vehicle pulling a trailer. Oops, that’s not happening either.

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Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos