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LAXintl
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Updated: Japan allocates Haneda international slots to 9 nations

Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:47 am

Japan's Ministry of Land Infrastructure and Transport awarded 25 new international arrival and departure slot frequencies at Haneda available to Japanese carriers commencing summer 2020.

Per the allocation, ANA has been awarded 13.5 movements and JAL 11.5.

The allocation continues Japanese government preference for ANA ever since JALs bankruptcy and reorganization.

No breakdown of country destinations reported, but we know 12 should be for the U.S as Japan allocates a commensurate number of flights as foreign nations.

ANA to remain top carrier at Haneda, beating JAL for new slots
https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Transp ... -new-slots

=
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LAXintl
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Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:58 am

Per another source, it says:

"the remaining slots to be allocated for services connecting Haneda to destinations in Asia and Europe."
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
Ishrion
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Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:34 am

Sucks for AA as well, as they were only awarded 2 of 4 slots while United was awarded 4 of 6 slots. Gotta wait and see if AA decides to move existing NRT flights to HND with its awarded DFW/LAX-HND slot. Looks like UA/ANA will be the big winner here.
 
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RWA380
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Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:28 am

Will NH & JL be changing destinations in the US over to HND like DL has done, or will they add more flights to their strong US destinations & have multiple US cities with both HND & NRT service, given each carriers large presence at both Tokyo area airports?

It looks like the winner by a hair is NH/UA & second to AA/JL. DL is the big US winner for slot pairs, but DL has the smallest presence in Tokyo, but the lions share in Seoul with KE. Glad HA got one too, it seems incoming tourism & the impact to the US economy is now a consideration & should be for a state so dependent on it just like Hawaii.
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AA AC AQ BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HG HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WN WP YS 8M
 
ITSTours
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Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:28 am

what's 0.5? How does it work? Only arrival or departure?
Last edited by ITSTours on Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
ITSTours
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Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:49 am

So JAL and ANA got 25 and US got 12. Remaining [email protected] will be taken by non-JP/US carriers then.

Let's see, who else?
Swiss/ LX (ZRH) 1
UK/ BA or VS (LHR) 1 - VS likely to get it?
Finland / AY (HEL) 1
Germany / LH (FRA) 1
Netherlands / KL (HEL) 1

AF already holds two, so I don't think they'll get it.
This is pretty much it in Europe I guess? 5 of them reserved.

Then the remainder goes to Asia? How about Oceania?

Hong Kong: HKG has already two daytime slots so probably no.
PRC: PEK might be. Let's give them 1. PVG already has two so probably no.
Taiwan: TSA-HND well connected, so probably no.
South Korea: GMP might not get it. (Especially since current Japanese government hates Korea.)
Singapore and Thailand: SIN and BKK already have plenty so probably no.
Malaysia: MH (KUL) might be? Let's give them 1. But nighttime departure also makes sense so...
Indonesia: GA (CGK) already has one daytime slot so probably no.

Then it's only 2, I think it's too conservative.

Australia: MEL (QF) or SYD (VA) probably one of them.
New Zealand: AKL might get it.

So that's 9.

Canada may get one, so likely YVR on AC. That's 10.

Then probably PRC will get one more (CAN?), and Hong Kong or Singapore may get more. This makes 12-13.
 
YYZORD
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Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:53 am

Canada gets none?!?!?! YYZ desperately needs service from either NH or JL, most likely it would be NH. It is the only major international airport in North America with many asian carriers but no NH or JL service and its been too long without such Japanese carrier service.
 
B747forever
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Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:55 am

ITSTours wrote:
So JAL and ANA got 25 and US got 12. Remaining [email protected] will be taken by non-JP/US carriers then.

Let's see, who else?
Swiss/ LX (ZRH) 1
UK/ BA or VS (LHR) 1 - VS likely to get it?
Finland / AY (HEL) 1
Germany / LH (FRA) 1
Netherlands / KL (HEL) 1

AF already holds two, so I don't think they'll get it.
This is pretty much it in Europe I guess? 5 of them reserved.


In another forum there has been rumors about SAS getting a slot at HND in order to switch their CPH flight from NRT. There has also been rumors about a possible ARN-NRT flight when they switch the CPH flight to HND.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
c933103
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Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:02 am

ITSTours wrote:
So JAL and ANA got 25 and US got 12. Remaining [email protected] will be taken by non-JP/US carriers then.

Some existing domestic slots will also be reallocated in the mean time. And then some slots could also goes to other domestic services.
When no other countries around the world is going to militarily stop China and its subordinate fom abusing its citizens within its national boundary, it is unreasonable to expect those abuse can be countered with purely peaceful means.
 
YYZORD
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Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:04 am

Wait, if AC gets another HND slot for YVR-HND, will NH get an extra Canada slot that can be used for HND-YYZ?
 
Ishrion
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Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:15 am

YYZORD wrote:
Wait, if AC gets another HND slot for YVR-HND, will NH get an extra Canada slot that can be used for HND-YYZ?


Why not Montreal or Calgary :stirthepot:
 
YYZORD
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Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:22 am

Because the demand for Montreal and Calgary is very small and can be sustained with 1x daily from AC. YYZ on the other hand is a way bigger market and a bigger star alliance hub too. its home to the largest city in Canada and is pretty big for a metropolitan area (6-7 million people). YYZ can be compared to hubs like ORD, IAH, SFO, etc. A lot of Japanese companies have Canadian head offices near YYZ too. YYZ is not only a gateway to Eastern Canada but its also a major gateway to the Eastern/Midwest US thanks to AC's route network so altogether, that accounts for way more demand for another tokyo flight for YYZ which NH can add. There are a lot of asians living here that would love to pay for premium service from NH.

Ishrion wrote:
YYZORD wrote:
Wait, if AC gets another HND slot for YVR-HND, will NH get an extra Canada slot that can be used for HND-YYZ?


Why not Montreal or Calgary :stirthepot:
Last edited by YYZORD on Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
ITSTours
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Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:24 am

B747forever wrote:
ITSTours wrote:
So JAL and ANA got 25 and US got 12. Remaining [email protected] will be taken by non-JP/US carriers then.

Let's see, who else?
Swiss/ LX (ZRH) 1
UK/ BA or VS (LHR) 1 - VS likely to get it?
Finland / AY (HEL) 1
Germany / LH (FRA) 1
Netherlands / KL (HEL) 1

AF already holds two, so I don't think they'll get it.
This is pretty much it in Europe I guess? 5 of them reserved.


In another forum there has been rumors about SAS getting a slot at HND in order to switch their CPH flight from NRT. There has also been rumors about a possible ARN-NRT flight when they switch the CPH flight to HND.


Oh, I forgot about SAS. :P CPH-HND is certainly possible.
 
TC957
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Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:44 am

Really hoping for VS to get the extra UK one and restart a Tokyo service.
 
planemanofnz
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Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:46 am

I know it's a stretch, but could "Asia" include New Zealand? I really think NH on HND - AKL would be a great addition, especially if done in a tie-up with NZ.

Cheers,

C.
 
c933103
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Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:43 am

planemanofnz wrote:
I know it's a stretch, but could "Asia" include New Zealand? I really think NH on HND - AKL would be a great addition, especially if done in a tie-up with NZ.

Cheers,

C.

According to Nikkei, other than American routes, the other slots will goes to countries like China, Australia, Russia, Turkey and etc.
But apparently that is not finalized yet and things might still change until the announcement in September.
When no other countries around the world is going to militarily stop China and its subordinate fom abusing its citizens within its national boundary, it is unreasonable to expect those abuse can be countered with purely peaceful means.
 
artflyer
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Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:53 am

ITSTours wrote:
So JAL and ANA got 25 and US got 12. Remaining [email protected] will be taken by non-JP/US carriers then.

Let's see, who else?
Swiss/ LX (ZRH) 1
UK/ BA or VS (LHR) 1 - VS likely to get it?
Finland / AY (HEL) 1
Germany / LH (FRA) 1
Netherlands / KL (HEL) 1

AF already holds two, so I don't think they'll get it.
This is pretty much it in Europe I guess? 5 of them reserved.

Then the remainder goes to Asia? How about Oceania?

Hong Kong: HKG has already two daytime slots so probably no.
PRC: PEK might be. Let's give them 1. PVG already has two so probably no.
Taiwan: TSA-HND well connected, so probably no.
South Korea: GMP might not get it. (Especially since current Japanese government hates Korea.)
Singapore and Thailand: SIN and BKK already have plenty so probably no.
Malaysia: MH (KUL) might be? Let's give them 1. But nighttime departure also makes sense so...
Indonesia: GA (CGK) already has one daytime slot so probably no.

Then it's only 2, I think it's too conservative.

Australia: MEL (QF) or SYD (VA) probably one of them.
New Zealand: AKL might get it.

So that's 9.

Canada may get one, so likely YVR on AC. That's 10.

Then probably PRC will get one more (CAN?), and Hong Kong or Singapore may get more. This makes 12-13.


From Europe also LOT Polish expressed its interest in a HND slot (on top of its existing NRT one).
 
EK77WNH
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Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:03 pm

How likely is it that BOS gets something from ANA? We only have the JAL to NRT and I tend to think the demand for HND is equal to that, at least.
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MIflyer12
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Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:33 pm

EK77WNH wrote:
How likely is it that BOS gets something from ANA? We only have the JAL to NRT and I tend to think the demand for HND is equal to that, at least.


ANA has a fairly limited (logical) destination set from HND. You'd really be counting on BOS-HND O&D traffic. Maybe there's enough to compete against JAL - and maybe not.
 
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UPlog
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Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:49 pm

ITSTours wrote:
what's 0.5? How does it work? Only arrival or departure?


Probably day of week service. For example a route that operates 3x weekly.
 
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mercure1
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Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:43 pm

Considering the awards are effective March 2020, we should find out about routes rather soon in order to allow for planning and sales.
mercure f-wtcc
 
Whiteguy
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Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:55 pm

YYZORD wrote:
Because the demand for Montreal and Calgary is very small and can be sustained with 1x daily from AC. YYZ on the other hand is a way bigger market and a bigger star alliance hub too. its home to the largest city in Canada and is pretty big for a metropolitan area (6-7 million people). YYZ can be compared to hubs like ORD, IAH, SFO, etc. A lot of Japanese companies have Canadian head offices near YYZ too. YYZ is not only a gateway to Eastern Canada but its also a major gateway to the Eastern/Midwest US thanks to AC's route network so altogether, that accounts for way more demand for another tokyo flight for YYZ which NH can add. There are a lot of asians living here that would love to pay for premium service from NH.

Ishrion wrote:
YYZORD wrote:
Wait, if AC gets another HND slot for YVR-HND, will NH get an extra Canada slot that can be used for HND-YYZ?


Why not Montreal or Calgary :stirthepot:


Maybe WS will get it instead of AC. YYC-HND to compete with AC NRT flight....
 
FSDan
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Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:35 pm

RWA380 wrote:
Will NH & JL be changing destinations in the US over to HND like DL has done, or will they add more flights to their strong US destinations & have multiple US cities with both HND & NRT service, given each carriers large presence at both Tokyo area airports?


Probably a mix, although with limited fleet resources I wouldn't expect too many cases of serving both TYO airports from U.S. destinations.

Here are some possibilities in my opinion.

Near certainties:
JL ORD-HND (replacing one existing JL/AA NRT flight)
NH IAH-HND (replacing existing NRT flight)

Likely routes:
NH SEA-HND (replacing existing NRT flight)
JL SEA-HND (replacing existing NRT flight)
NH SFO-HND (replacing existing NRT flight)
NH SJC-HND (replacing existing NRT flight)
JL SAN-HND (replacing existing NRT flight)
JL BOS-HND (replacing existing NRT flight)
NH HNL-HND (additional flight)
JL HNL-HND (replacing an existing NRT flight)

Other possibilities:
NH PDX-HND (new flight)
JL LAS-HND (new flight)
NH LAS-HND (new flight)
JL DFW-HND (replacing existing NRT flight)
NH IAD-HND (replacing existing NRT flight)
NH BOS-HND (new flight)

UA/NH actually have so many frequencies at this point that the challenge for them will be utilizing all their HND frequencies without undercutting their NRT operation. I think NH will cut one of their two daily LAX-NRT flights at the very least since UA is starting an additional LAX-HND flight, but I imagine they'll want to keep SFO-NRT (UA), LAX-NRT (UA + NH), DEN-NRT (UA), IAH-NRT (UA), ORD-NRT (NH), EWR-NRT (UA), JFK-NRT (NH), and HNL-NRT (UA + NH) at the very least to feed their NRT-Asia network. Other destinations like SEA and SJC can probably be moved to HND to focus on Japan O&D.
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vin2basketball
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Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:33 pm

FSDan wrote:
RWA380 wrote:
Will NH & JL be changing destinations in the US over to HND like DL has done, or will they add more flights to their strong US destinations & have multiple US cities with both HND & NRT service, given each carriers large presence at both Tokyo area airports?


Probably a mix, although with limited fleet resources I wouldn't expect too many cases of serving both TYO airports from U.S. destinations.

Here are some possibilities in my opinion.

Near certainties:
JL ORD-HND (replacing one existing JL/AA NRT flight)
NH IAH-HND (replacing existing NRT flight)

Likely routes:
NH SEA-HND (replacing existing NRT flight)
JL SEA-HND (replacing existing NRT flight)
NH SFO-HND (replacing existing NRT flight)
NH SJC-HND (replacing existing NRT flight)
JL SAN-HND (replacing existing NRT flight)
JL BOS-HND (replacing existing NRT flight)
NH HNL-HND (additional flight)
JL HNL-HND (replacing an existing NRT flight)

Other possibilities:
NH PDX-HND (new flight)
JL LAS-HND (new flight)
NH LAS-HND (new flight)
JL DFW-HND (replacing existing NRT flight)
NH IAD-HND (replacing existing NRT flight)
NH BOS-HND (new flight)

UA/NH actually have so many frequencies at this point that the challenge for them will be utilizing all their HND frequencies without undercutting their NRT operation. I think NH will cut one of their two daily LAX-NRT flights at the very least since UA is starting an additional LAX-HND flight, but I imagine they'll want to keep SFO-NRT (UA), LAX-NRT (UA + NH), DEN-NRT (UA), IAH-NRT (UA), ORD-NRT (NH), EWR-NRT (UA), JFK-NRT (NH), and HNL-NRT (UA + NH) at the very least to feed their NRT-Asia network. Other destinations like SEA and SJC can probably be moved to HND to focus on Japan O&D.


I agree with the following:

NH - IAH, SFO, HNL
JL - DFW, ORD, HNL, BOS, LAS

I separately think NH might want to add another daily to EWR or JFK (giving them an additional edge in the NYC-Haneda market), replace one more LAX, and add Guam (out there but a huge market).

From the JL side, I also think replacing one LAX flight.

SEA (given DL competition), SJC, and SAN think need the beyond-Tokyo connectivity of NRT
 
chonetsao
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Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:48 pm

Surely the payback and balance of power towards ANA should be finished by now. ANA is by far the largest HND slots owner with the purchase of Skymark.

With JAL is now back on track after the favours Japanese government to help it survive, which resulted the ANA/United dominance in HND, Japanese authority should go back to neutral and balance ANA/JAL HND situation. The never stop pay back towards ANA is becoming pure and evident favoritism towards ANA. This is dangerous to both the aviation industry and consumer market.
 
RainerBoeing777
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Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:52 pm

My predictions
Japan Airlines:
DFW, ORD, BOS, LAX, SEA
Other destinations: FCO, BCN, FRA, DEL, DME
All Nippon Airways
SFO, IAH, IAD, HNL (new)
Other destinations: ZRH, MXP, AKL, YYZ, BRU, DUS

For Europe
Swiss, ZRH
SAS, CPH
KLM, AMS
LH, FRA or MUC
BA or VS, LHR
Turkish Airlines, IST

ASEAN
BKK, SIN, CGK, KUL

Oceania
QF, BNE or MEL
NZ, AKL
CX - JL - LH - KE - KL - SQ - QR - QF - TG
 
TC957
Posts: 3491
Joined: Wed May 23, 2012 1:12 pm

Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:40 pm

RainerBoeing777 wrote:
My predictions
Japan Airlines:
DFW, ORD, BOS, LAX, SEA
Other destinations: FCO, BCN, FRA, DEL, DME
All Nippon Airways
SFO, IAH, IAD, HNL (new)
Other destinations: ZRH, MXP, AKL, YYZ, BRU, DUS

For Europe
Swiss, ZRH
SAS, CPH
KLM, AMS
LH, FRA or MUC
BA or VS, LHR
Turkish Airlines, IST

ASEAN
BKK, SIN, CGK, KUL

Oceania
QF, BNE or MEL
NZ, AKL

LH already has for some time served FRA & MUC from HND not NRT, or do you mean a second daily service ?
 
mpdpilot
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Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:59 pm

FSDan wrote:
RWA380 wrote:
Will NH & JL be changing destinations in the US over to HND like DL has done, or will they add more flights to their strong US destinations & have multiple US cities with both HND & NRT service, given each carriers large presence at both Tokyo area airports?


Probably a mix, although with limited fleet resources I wouldn't expect too many cases of serving both TYO airports from U.S. destinations.

Here are some possibilities in my opinion.

Near certainties:
JL ORD-HND (replacing one existing JL/AA NRT flight)
NH IAH-HND (replacing existing NRT flight)

Likely routes:
NH SEA-HND (replacing existing NRT flight)
JL SEA-HND (replacing existing NRT flight)
NH SFO-HND (replacing existing NRT flight)
NH SJC-HND (replacing existing NRT flight)
JL SAN-HND (replacing existing NRT flight)
JL BOS-HND (replacing existing NRT flight)
NH HNL-HND (additional flight)
JL HNL-HND (replacing an existing NRT flight)

Other possibilities:
NH PDX-HND (new flight)
JL LAS-HND (new flight)
NH LAS-HND (new flight)
JL DFW-HND (replacing existing NRT flight)
NH IAD-HND (replacing existing NRT flight)
NH BOS-HND (new flight)

UA/NH actually have so many frequencies at this point that the challenge for them will be utilizing all their HND frequencies without undercutting their NRT operation. I think NH will cut one of their two daily LAX-NRT flights at the very least since UA is starting an additional LAX-HND flight, but I imagine they'll want to keep SFO-NRT (UA), LAX-NRT (UA + NH), DEN-NRT (UA), IAH-NRT (UA), ORD-NRT (NH), EWR-NRT (UA), JFK-NRT (NH), and HNL-NRT (UA + NH) at the very least to feed their NRT-Asia network. Other destinations like SEA and SJC can probably be moved to HND to focus on Japan O&D.


Great post and insight. It will be telling which routes switch from NRT to HND suggesting they are carrying more local traffic than connecting. In places like SJC, SEA, BOS it will show a bit about the traffic from those airports. Not that people can't connect at HND, it seems probable that flights with more connections will stay at NRT, why waste a HND slot on connections when they are handled better at NRT anyway.
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
 
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RWA380
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Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:59 pm

TC957 wrote:
Really hoping for VS to get the extra UK one and restart a Tokyo service.


It seems to be a missing hole in their network, IMHO. I flew on VS "Maiden Japan" around 1999 LGW-JFK. So I am extrapolating that it was one of VS's original lineup of cities served. When did they leave & why?
707, 717, 720, 727-1/2, 737-1/2/3/4/5/7/8/9, 747-1/2/3, 757, 767-2/3/4, 777-2/3, DC8, DC9, MD80/2/7/8, D10-1/3/4, M11, L10-2/5, A300/310/319/320
AA AC AQ BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HG HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WN WP YS 8M
 
terefere
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Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:04 pm

artflyer wrote:
ITSTours wrote:
So JAL and ANA got 25 and US got 12. Remaining [email protected] will be taken by non-JP/US carriers then.

Let's see, who else?
Swiss/ LX (ZRH) 1
UK/ BA or VS (LHR) 1 - VS likely to get it?
Finland / AY (HEL) 1
Germany / LH (FRA) 1
Netherlands / KL (HEL) 1

AF already holds two, so I don't think they'll get it.
This is pretty much it in Europe I guess? 5 of them reserved.

Then the remainder goes to Asia? How about Oceania?

Hong Kong: HKG has already two daytime slots so probably no.
PRC: PEK might be. Let's give them 1. PVG already has two so probably no.
Taiwan: TSA-HND well connected, so probably no.
South Korea: GMP might not get it. (Especially since current Japanese government hates Korea.)
Singapore and Thailand: SIN and BKK already have plenty so probably no.
Malaysia: MH (KUL) might be? Let's give them 1. But nighttime departure also makes sense so...
Indonesia: GA (CGK) already has one daytime slot so probably no.

Then it's only 2, I think it's too conservative.

Australia: MEL (QF) or SYD (VA) probably one of them.
New Zealand: AKL might get it.

So that's 9.

Canada may get one, so likely YVR on AC. That's 10.

Then probably PRC will get one more (CAN?), and Hong Kong or Singapore may get more. This makes 12-13.


From Europe also LOT Polish expressed its interest in a HND slot (on top of its existing NRT one).


Yep, HND slots were discussed at the prime ministerial level (!) with Shinzo Abe some 3 months ago, apparently. What works in LOT's favor is that they do not want to cancel NRT if they start flying to HND. But other than that, not sure what their chances are. They do not serve other destinations in Japan. Other more entrenched carriers may be proffered.
 
RainerBoeing777
Posts: 395
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Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:20 pm

TC957 wrote:
RainerBoeing777 wrote:
My predictions
Japan Airlines:
DFW, ORD, BOS, LAX, SEA
Other destinations: FCO, BCN, FRA, DEL, DME
All Nippon Airways
SFO, IAH, IAD, HNL (new)
Other destinations: ZRH, MXP, AKL, YYZ, BRU, DUS

For Europe
Swiss, ZRH
SAS, CPH
KLM, AMS
LH, FRA or MUC
BA or VS, LHR
Turkish Airlines, IST

ASEAN
BKK, SIN, CGK, KUL

Oceania
QF, BNE or MEL
NZ, AKL

LH already has for some time served FRA & MUC from HND not NRT, or do you mean a second daily service ?


Yes, a second daily flights to FRA or MUC, or maybe 3 weekly frequencies to FRA and 4 to weekly frequencies to MUC
CX - JL - LH - KE - KL - SQ - QR - QF - TG
 
Cunard
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Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:47 pm

RWA380 wrote:
TC957 wrote:
Really hoping for VS to get the extra UK one and restart a Tokyo service.


It seems to be a missing hole in their network, IMHO. I flew on VS "Maiden Japan" around 1999 LGW-JFK. So I am extrapolating that it was one of VS's original lineup of cities served. When did they leave & why?


BCAL British Caledonian Airways was merged with British Airways in August 1988 and due to bilaterals between the United Kingdom and Japan it allowed two carriers from both countries to have traffic rights between London and Tokyo.

VS were awarded traffic rights to fly from LGW to NRT in 1989 after taking over the former BCAL license. LGW to NRT was initially three times weekly with one flight a week via SVO, the flight was flown with a B742.

At the same time ANA were awarded NRT to LGW with a similar schedule to VS using the B742.

In 1991 LHR was opened to new entrants minus those airlines and destinations under Bermuda II and ANA and VS soon moved their Tokyo flights to LHR.

After the investment by Delta, VS took a review of their route network and NRT was one of the casualties.

At the time of the B789 order VS made it public that they had obtained slots at HND and that LHR to HND would be the first route flown with the B789.

Of course the above never materialised but I have always found it strange that VS abandoned such an important route.

I'm sure that VS will one day resume Tokyo to their route network especially since they seem to be on expansion mode of late.
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
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RWA380
Posts: 5517
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Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:31 pm

Cunard wrote:
RWA380 wrote:
TC957 wrote:
Really hoping for VS to get the extra UK one and restart a Tokyo service.


It seems to be a missing hole in their network, IMHO. I flew on VS "Maiden Japan" around 1999 LGW-JFK. So I am extrapolating that it was one of VS's original lineup of cities served. When did they leave & why?


BCAL British Caledonian Airways was merged with British Airways in August 1988 and due to bilaterals between the United Kingdom and Japan it allowed two carriers from both countries to have traffic rights between London and Tokyo.

VS were awarded traffic rights to fly from LGW to NRT in 1989 after taking over the former BCAL license. LGW to NRT was initially three times weekly with one flight a week via SVO, the flight was flown with a B742.

At the same time ANA were awarded NRT to LGW with a similar schedule to VS using the B742.

In 1991 LHR was opened to new entrants minus those airlines and destinations under Bermuda II and ANA and VS soon moved their Tokyo flights to LHR.

After the investment by Delta, VS took a review of their route network and NRT was one of the casualties.

At the time of the B789 order VS made it public that they had obtained slots at HND and that LHR to HND would be the first route flown with the B789.

Of course the above never materialised but I have always found it strange that VS abandoned such an important route.

I'm sure that VS will one day resume Tokyo to their route network especially since they seem to be on expansion mode of late.


Cunard, thank you for explaining that, as always you are a wealth of knowledge & are well known for freely sharing it all. I was wrong on the year, it was 1990 & I had just taken the QE2 on a crossing from NYC, the last of the season over Thanksgiving. We had stayed a few days & then took the late afternoon VS flight.

The lady sitting across the aisle was the psychic from the ship & the cards had told her not to fly, twice that day. The flight was uneventful until final approach, when at the very last minute we did a full throttled go around as another aircraft had just pulled onto the runway just as we were crossing the lights & piano keys.
707, 717, 720, 727-1/2, 737-1/2/3/4/5/7/8/9, 747-1/2/3, 757, 767-2/3/4, 777-2/3, DC8, DC9, MD80/2/7/8, D10-1/3/4, M11, L10-2/5, A300/310/319/320
AA AC AQ BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HG HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WN WP YS 8M
 
Cunard
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Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:47 pm

RWA380

Many thanks for your reply and the comments it's totally appreciated :-)

Nice to know that you were on the QE2 in 1990, after checking my date's I was actually on leave when you took your transatlantic crossing, I hope that it made a lasting impression on you.

With regards to your VS flight, well the experience of an aborted landing definitely makes the flight more memorable especially on a B747 something that I have only experienced once in all flights I have taken and that was on a B737.

Regards

PS My beard isn't as long as the one in your aviator but it's a mature beard non the less but as I'm typing this I'm contemplating trimming it down to a more manageable length :-)
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:54 pm

If NH does decide to use a slot for the US, IAH seems like the natural choice. It is the only JV hub that UA applied for that wasnt granted a slot.
"I dance and laugh among the rotten"
 
kriskim
Posts: 369
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Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:55 pm

RainerBoeing777 wrote:
Oceania
QF, BNE or MEL
NZ, AKL


Would make sense for QF to launch MEL-HND, as that would give them a competitive advantage over JL. I would say that MEL would have more premium demand, especially with the number of Japanese businesses that have their Australian operations based there, whilst BNE is more leisure orientated in comparison.

In saying that, BNE did get a NRT service from QF first, but MEL did end up getting its own daily service and also a daily JL service too and is now the second largest Tokyo-Australia market.
A world built upon connectivity.
 
a19901213
Posts: 145
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:38 am

Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:21 am

kriskim wrote:
RainerBoeing777 wrote:
Oceania
QF, BNE or MEL
NZ, AKL


Would make sense for QF to launch MEL-HND, as that would give them a competitive advantage over JL. I would say that MEL would have more premium demand, especially with the number of Japanese businesses that have their Australian operations based there, whilst BNE is more leisure orientated in comparison.

In saying that, BNE did get a NRT service from QF first, but MEL did end up getting its own daily service and also a daily JL service too and is now the second largest Tokyo-Australia market.


AJ said he wants second daily SYD-HND given there’s a slot for it.
 
amirs
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Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:26 am

Maybe ANA to TLV as LY will start to Narita.
 
c933103
Posts: 3812
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Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:47 am

chonetsao wrote:
Surely the payback and balance of power towards ANA should be finished by now. ANA is by far the largest HND slots owner with the purchase of Skymark.

With JAL is now back on track after the favours Japanese government to help it survive, which resulted the ANA/United dominance in HND, Japanese authority should go back to neutral and balance ANA/JAL HND situation. The never stop pay back towards ANA is becoming pure and evident favoritism towards ANA. This is dangerous to both the aviation industry and consumer market.

The Nikkei report said the allocation this time is based on number of destination, unlike previous allocations where there were official policy to create a more balanced competition environment by allocating more slots to ANA.
When no other countries around the world is going to militarily stop China and its subordinate fom abusing its citizens within its national boundary, it is unreasonable to expect those abuse can be countered with purely peaceful means.
 
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Pudelhund
Posts: 194
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Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:01 am

AA made such a big deal in their bid with HND-LAS that if JL doesn’t open up HND-LAS now with their own metal they will look very insincere.
 
chonetsao
Posts: 294
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2005 3:55 pm

Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:13 am

c933103 wrote:
chonetsao wrote:
Surely the payback and balance of power towards ANA should be finished by now. ANA is by far the largest HND slots owner with the purchase of Skymark.

With JAL is now back on track after the favours Japanese government to help it survive, which resulted the ANA/United dominance in HND, Japanese authority should go back to neutral and balance ANA/JAL HND situation. The never stop pay back towards ANA is becoming pure and evident favoritism towards ANA. This is dangerous to both the aviation industry and consumer market.

The Nikkei report said the allocation this time is based on number of destination, unlike previous allocations where there were official policy to create a more balanced competition environment by allocating more slots to ANA.


Thanks for the update. Without reading the article I can only speculate. Please help me to understand if you may.

So regards to [based on number of destination]. In last decade, Japanese authority heavily tilt towards ANA in HND slots allocation resulted in more slots thus more destinations for ANA (also the purchase of SkyMark helped). If Japanese authority continue to award slots based on destination, it is just a legalized favoritism towards ANA. As time goes by, ANA is awarded more slots, thus more destinations, equals more slots next round.

Did I make the correct assumption above? If so, when Japanese authority would realize that ANA/UA is getting far too many slots and JAL/AA is too far behind?

My point is that Japanese authority should start to balance the market share between ANA and JAL after decades punish JAL. The continuation of old policy is not fair after so many years. [based on number of destination] would only favor the party who already have a large volume of slots (AKA ANA). Correct the situation the sooner the better. Otherwise another decade later the Japanese authority would have to heavily tilt towards JAL to balance the market share. It is not good for either JAL and ANA. It is much better, IMHO, to balance the share of ANA and JAL now then start a neutral point from now on.
 
c933103
Posts: 3812
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:34 pm

chonetsao wrote:
c933103 wrote:
chonetsao wrote:
Surely the payback and balance of power towards ANA should be finished by now. ANA is by far the largest HND slots owner with the purchase of Skymark.

With JAL is now back on track after the favours Japanese government to help it survive, which resulted the ANA/United dominance in HND, Japanese authority should go back to neutral and balance ANA/JAL HND situation. The never stop pay back towards ANA is becoming pure and evident favoritism towards ANA. This is dangerous to both the aviation industry and consumer market.

The Nikkei report said the allocation this time is based on number of destination, unlike previous allocations where there were official policy to create a more balanced competition environment by allocating more slots to ANA.


Thanks for the update. Without reading the article I can only speculate. Please help me to understand if you may.

So regards to [based on number of destination]. In last decade, Japanese authority heavily tilt towards ANA in HND slots allocation resulted in more slots thus more destinations for ANA (also the purchase of SkyMark helped). If Japanese authority continue to award slots based on destination, it is just a legalized favoritism towards ANA. As time goes by, ANA is awarded more slots, thus more destinations, equals more slots next round.

Did I make the correct assumption above? If so, when Japanese authority would realize that ANA/UA is getting far too many slots and JAL/AA is too far behind?

My point is that Japanese authority should start to balance the market share between ANA and JAL after decades punish JAL. The continuation of old policy is not fair after so many years. [based on number of destination] would only favor the party who already have a large volume of slots (AKA ANA). Correct the situation the sooner the better. Otherwise another decade later the Japanese authority would have to heavily tilt towards JAL to balance the market share. It is not good for either JAL and ANA. It is much better, IMHO, to balance the share of ANA and JAL now then start a neutral point from now on.

ANA getting more Haneda slot than JAL durung year 2012-2016 was because JAL bankrupted and restructured with the help of the government, and those additional slots given to ANA was to balance against those helps JAL got at the time.
When no other countries around the world is going to militarily stop China and its subordinate fom abusing its citizens within its national boundary, it is unreasonable to expect those abuse can be countered with purely peaceful means.
 
eamondzhang
Posts: 1309
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Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:42 pm

ITSTours wrote:
So JAL and ANA got 25 and US got 12. Remaining [email protected] will be taken by non-JP/US carriers then.

Let's see, who else?
Swiss/ LX (ZRH) 1
UK/ BA or VS (LHR) 1 - VS likely to get it?
Finland / AY (HEL) 1
Germany / LH (FRA) 1
Netherlands / KL (HEL) 1

AF already holds two, so I don't think they'll get it.
This is pretty much it in Europe I guess? 5 of them reserved.

Then the remainder goes to Asia? How about Oceania?

Hong Kong: HKG has already two daytime slots so probably no.
PRC: PEK might be. Let's give them 1. PVG already has two so probably no.
Taiwan: TSA-HND well connected, so probably no.
South Korea: GMP might not get it. (Especially since current Japanese government hates Korea.)
Singapore and Thailand: SIN and BKK already have plenty so probably no.
Malaysia: MH (KUL) might be? Let's give them 1. But nighttime departure also makes sense so...
Indonesia: GA (CGK) already has one daytime slot so probably no.

Then it's only 2, I think it's too conservative.

Australia: MEL (QF) or SYD (VA) probably one of them.
New Zealand: AKL might get it.

So that's 9.

Canada may get one, so likely YVR on AC. That's 10.

Then probably PRC will get one more (CAN?), and Hong Kong or Singapore may get more. This makes 12-13.

I was always under the impression that UK has already had 14 weekly slots which currently is underutilised (only 7x from BA). Since JAL and ANA both flies 7x weekly (daytime only; not counting JAL's nighttime service) there should be more than enough for VS whenever/ifever they want it.

And regarding China - PVG is by far the largest market and by a far margin. PEK can barely sustain flights at current level (both JAL and ANA had to cut flights from NRT to make HND one sustainable). CAN has already had links to HND - four times daily actually, one each from ANA/JAL and two from China Southern. My bet would be either more frequencies to PVG/SHA, or opening up more destinations, if something ever happens.

I can actually think of a good case where AY and QF gets more slots to HND - for QF, that means their current SYD flight can depart earlier (in daytime hours as per HND definition) instead of 22-ish, and then another flight can arrive around 18/19pm to take up the return trip back to Australia. AY has a huge market in Japan which could also help driving the business case.

Michael
 
smi0006
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Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:43 pm

a19901213 wrote:
kriskim wrote:
RainerBoeing777 wrote:
Oceania
QF, BNE or MEL
NZ, AKL


Would make sense for QF to launch MEL-HND, as that would give them a competitive advantage over JL. I would say that MEL would have more premium demand, especially with the number of Japanese businesses that have their Australian operations based there, whilst BNE is more leisure orientated in comparison.

In saying that, BNE did get a NRT service from QF first, but MEL did end up getting its own daily service and also a daily JL service too and is now the second largest Tokyo-Australia market.


AJ said he wants second daily SYD-HND given there’s a slot for it.


That would make sense if the 744 comes off the route. However shame MEL-HND would also be a great addition, can’t see BNE having the yield but could be wrong. Unless VA decide they want to give it a crack? Take a 330 off domestic?
 
Toinou
Posts: 42
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Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:29 pm

Would LX be interested in relocating to HND?
 
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mercure1
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Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:00 pm

ANA vs JAL allocation preference in many ways seems appropriate still.

ANA for decades as an entirely private company had to play second place to long time government-owned JAL which had exclusive international rights. It was not until the late 1980s ANA was allowed long-haul international rights. In addition, the JAL bankruptcy, wiped clean the companies debts while the government provided ¥100 billion capital injection and credit meanwhile ANA had to face global economic challenges and their financial pressures without such a government backstop.

Short of the government handing ANA also a pile of cash to make up for the challenges it experiences while JAL enjoyed protection, it seems small things like route rights and slot awards that favor ANA are small way for the government to acknowledge the previous events and try to reward ANA back.
mercure f-wtcc
 
eamondzhang
Posts: 1309
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Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:17 pm

mercure1 wrote:
ANA vs JAL allocation preference in many ways seems appropriate still.

ANA for decades as an entirely private company had to play second place to long time government-owned JAL which had exclusive international rights. It was not until the late 1980s ANA was allowed long-haul international rights. In addition, the JAL bankruptcy, wiped clean the companies debts while the government provided ¥100 billion capital injection and credit meanwhile ANA had to face global economic challenges and their financial pressures without such a government backstop.

Short of the government handing ANA also a pile of cash to make up for the challenges it experiences while JAL enjoyed protection, it seems small things like route rights and slot awards that favor ANA are small way for the government to acknowledge the previous events and try to reward ANA back.

Indeed, ANA was blocked from any international routes until 1985 and didn't make the biggest Japanese carrier flying internationally until sometime between 2014 and 2016. That partly make them tremendous domestically (there are many seconary routes where ANA can sustain 763s and 772s such as ITM-SDJ/FUK, HND-MYJ/KOJ for example, while JAL can barely compete with 738s and E-Jets)

That did indeed sound like a payback to me.

Michael
 
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mercure1
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Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:28 pm

Per aviationwire.jp, for U.S services both ANA and JAL are alotted 6 frequencies each. That means ANA will have 7.5 frequencies to use for other markets, while JAL will have 5.5
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LAXintl
Topic Author
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Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:14 am

The non-US International awards are out today:

By country:
China - 4
Russia - 2
Australia - 2
India - 1
Italy - 1
Turkey - 1
Finland - 1
"Scandinavia" - 1

https://www.mlit.go.jp/report/press/kou ... 00196.html
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LAXintl
Topic Author
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Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:20 am

Foreign route allocation for ANA - JAL

ANA
USA - 6
China - 2
Russia - 1
Australia - 1
India - 0.5
Italy - 1
Turkey - 1
Scandinavia - 1


JAL
USA - 6
China - 2
Russia - 1
Australia - 1
India - 0.5
Finland - 1
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