All these Narita to Haneda moves seem like a sequel we have seen before in another island nation, the UK. Back in 2008 when Heathrow was opened many existing Gatwick flights went to Heathrow. Great Japan has opened up HND to many new and former NRT international flights. Interesting times in Japan but where are they going to put all these extra HND flights ?

I was in Tokyo for the second time in two years in August arriving and departing from HND, the international terminal was already very busy. IT has only about 20 gates, now the US airlines are expanding by 12 new flights plus 12 from JAL & ANA. Even with ANA creating an international wing at their domestic terminal that will only move some ANA international flights.

jfk777 wrote:

All these Narita to Haneda moves seem like a sequel we have seen before in another island nation, the UK. Back in 2008 when Heathrow was opened many existing Gatwick flights went to Heathrow. Great Japan has opened up HND to many new and former NRT international flights. Interesting times in Japan but where are they going to put all these extra HND flights ?

I was in Tokyo for the second time in two years in August arriving and departing from HND, the international terminal was already very busy. IT has only about 20 gates, now the US airlines are expanding by 12 new flights plus 12 from JAL & ANA. Even with ANA creating an international wing at their domestic terminal that will only move some ANA international flights.

ANA uses remote stands for domestic flights at T2. This might be part of their plans from the new international wing as well.

Tabito wrote:

3 Alliances North America and Hawaii service from Tokyo NS 2020

Star Alliance
HND
ORD: 2 daily (NH1 UA1)
HNL: 1 daily (NH)
IAH: 2 daily (NH1 UA1)
LAX: 3 daily (NH2 UA1)
EWR: 1 daily (UA)
JFK: 1 daily (NH)
SFO: 2 daily (NH1 UA1)
SJC: 1 daily (NH)
SEA: 1 daily (NH)
YYZ: 1 daily (AC)
IAD: 2 daily (NH1 UA1)
YVR: 1 daily (NH)

NRT
ORD: 1 daily (NH)
DEN: 1 daily (UA)
HNL: 3 daily (NH2 UA1)
IAH: 1 daily (UA)
LAX: 3 daily (NH1 SQ1 UA1)
YUL: 3/w (AC)
EWR: 1 daily (UA)
JFK: 1 daily (NH)
SFO: 2 daily (NH1 UA1)
YVR: 1 daily (AC)

Slight correction, UA did not get HND-IAH. They are only flying NRT-IAH. You list HND-IAH 2x daily.

notconcerned wrote:

Tabito wrote:

3 Alliances North America and Hawaii service from Tokyo NS 2020

Star Alliance
HND
ORD: 2 daily (NH1 UA1)
HNL: 1 daily (NH)
IAH: 1 daily (NH)
LAX: 3 daily (NH2 UA1)
EWR: 1 daily (UA)
JFK: 1 daily (NH)
SFO: 2 daily (NH1 UA1)
SJC: 1 daily (NH)
SEA: 1 daily (NH)
YYZ: 1 daily (AC)
IAD: 2 daily (NH1 UA1)
YVR: 1 daily (NH)

NRT
ORD: 1 daily (NH)
DEN: 1 daily (UA)
HNL: 3 daily (NH2 UA1)
IAH: 1 daily (UA)
LAX: 3 daily (NH1 SQ1 UA1)
YUL: 3/w (AC)
EWR: 1 daily (UA)
JFK: 1 daily (NH)
SFO: 2 daily (NH1 UA1)
YVR: 1 daily (AC)

Slight correction, UA did not get HND-IAH. They are only flying NRT-IAH. You list HND-IAH 2x daily.

Thank you for your correction! I

jfk777 wrote:

All these Narita to Haneda moves seem like a sequel we have seen before in another island nation, the UK. Back in 2008 when Heathrow was opened many existing Gatwick flights went to Heathrow.

As previously explained the analogy is not the same.

Narita will still remain very much Tokyo's primary international airport and is even is being expanded to handle growth.

Tabito wrote:

BNAMealer wrote:

So if I’m reading this right, JL will go to 2x daily from ORD, 1 HND and 1 NRT, in 2020. In 2021, they will add another ORD-NRT frequency to make it 2x daily NRT and 1x daily HND.

Is this correct?

JL will serves 1 each daily from HND and NRT to ORD.
Current JL9/10 (NRT-ORD) will shifts to HND-ORD as same flight number.
New daily NRT-ORD will be JL55/56.

So JL’s ORD-NRT will be suspended for a year?

BNAMealer wrote:

Tabito wrote:

BNAMealer wrote:

So if I’m reading this right, JL will go to 2x daily from ORD, 1 HND and 1 NRT, in 2020. In 2021, they will add another ORD-NRT frequency to make it 2x daily NRT and 1x daily HND.

Is this correct?

JL will serves 1 each daily from HND and NRT to ORD.
Current JL9/10 (NRT-ORD) will shifts to HND-ORD as same flight number.
New daily NRT-ORD will be JL55/56.

So JL’s ORD-NRT will be suspended for a year?

Yes. They say that in the press release.

Is there enough traffic between LAX and TYO to justify 11 daily flights?

(I won't say anything about HNL - TYO since that's a whole different ball game, anyone who's taken a Hawaii trip or is a local is definitely cognizant of the sheer masses of Japanese tourists there).

Aceskywalker wrote:

Is there enough traffic between LAX and TYO to justify 11 daily flights?

(I won't say anything about HNL - TYO since that's a whole different ball game, anyone who's taken a Hawaii trip or is a local is definitely cognizant of the sheer masses of Japanese tourists there).

LA-TYO historically has supported ~10 frequencies for decades. Its the largest US mainland-Asia/Pacific city market by a big margin.

Beyond strong O&D traffic, there is still ample beyond connection opportunity also at both ends which further fills the flights.

mercure1 wrote:

jfk777 wrote:

All these Narita to Haneda moves seem like a sequel we have seen before in another island nation, the UK. Back in 2008 when Heathrow was opened many existing Gatwick flights went to Heathrow.

As previously explained the analogy is not the same.

Narita will still remain very much Tokyo's primary international airport and is even is being expanded to handle growth.

NRT can be whatever it wants, but when the US airlines, The European airlines, the Australian airlines, Canadian, New Zealand, Hong Kong, Singapore and the Two Japanese airlines move all the flights they can move to Haneda that tells you something, I will call "Gatwick Stink" in the air. HND is clearly much more desirable. The only reason a airline would retain a NRT flight is they can't get HND slots for all their frequencies to Tokyo, better to fly the additional frequency to NRT than reduce them. NRT will handle tons of Cargo but try flying to JFK, LAX , CDG or LHR and your NRT options are limited.

jfk777 wrote:

NRT can be whatever it wants, but when the US airlines, The European airlines, the Australian airlines, Canadian, New Zealand, Hong Kong, Singapore and the Two Japanese airlines move all the flights they can move to Haneda that tells you something, I will call "Gatwick Stink" in the air. HND is clearly much more desirable. The only reason a airline would retain a NRT flight is they can't get HND slots for all their frequencies to Tokyo, better to fly the additional frequency to NRT than reduce them. NRT will handle tons of Cargo but try flying to JFK, LAX , CDG or LHR and your NRT options are limited.

No NRT will have plenty (actually bulk) of international services to Tokyo.

HND is the more niche airport, as only a small number of slots are available and likely will ever be available.

NRT will remain as the international base for ANA and JAL along with most airlines even ones that have a few lots at HND, will have more service at NRT.

Sure HND might be desirable to access central Tokyo but does not change fact that NRT will very much still remain Tokyo's primary international gateway.

Narita is no Gatwick.

As mentioned by others Narita will still be the Tokyo region's primary international airport and are proceeding with its own expansion to meet the demand.

UPlog wrote:

Narita is no Gatwick.

As mentioned by others Narita will still be the Tokyo region's primary international airport and are proceeding with its own expansion to meet the demand.

Narita can expand all it wants but who is going to fly there ? British Airways, Air Canada, Qantas, Lufthansa, Air France, or Delta ? All these airlines clearly have a Haneda preference. Most airlines beyond Asia with only a handful of flights to Japan daily have spoken by moving their flights, at least those they could. IF Chinese airline want to flood NRT with flights from the PRC go for it.

jfk777 wrote:

UPlog wrote:

Narita is no Gatwick.

As mentioned by others Narita will still be the Tokyo region's primary international airport and are proceeding with its own expansion to meet the demand.

Narita can expand all it wants but who is going to fly there ? British Airways, Air Canada, Qantas, Lufthansa, Air France, or Delta ? All these airlines clearly have a Haneda preference. Most airlines beyond Asia with only a handful of flights to Japan daily have spoken by moving their flights, at least those they could. IF Chinese airline want to flood NRT with flights from the PRC go for it.

Well, I guess all the international airlines serving NRT should close up shop then, because there isn't going to be any more HND slots in the near future. Heck, JL and NH should also close half their international operations - must be running some accounting fraud to still be filling up planes profitably from NRT.

jfk777 wrote:

UPlog wrote:

Narita is no Gatwick.

As mentioned by others Narita will still be the Tokyo region's primary international airport and are proceeding with its own expansion to meet the demand.

Narita can expand all it wants but who is going to fly there ? British Airways, Air Canada, Qantas, Lufthansa, Air France, or Delta ? All these airlines clearly have a Haneda preference. Most airlines beyond Asia with only a handful of flights to Japan daily have spoken by moving their flights, at least those they could. IF Chinese airline want to flood NRT with flights from the PRC go for it.

Actually from the airlines you mentioned, BA, AC, QF and AF will retain flights to NRT with continued focus there. NRT will expand again in the future with more foreign carriers, not only by Chinese carriers.

The perception that Narita is a failure or will be left with second rate airlines is quite a fantasy.

Both ANA and JAL will hub there for their international flights and most international airlines even if they have some Haneda slots will make Narita their primary Tokyo gateway.

Narita will continue to see traffic growth as its additional runway comes online and the few slots vacated by airlines next summer shifting flights to Haneda will quickly be backfilled by others.

Narita airport say they will cut landing fee for long haul routes, as an attenpt to maintain and expand their route profile, especifically for routes to North America, in the face of Haneda slot expansion.
https://trafficnews.jp/post/91420

jfk777 wrote:

UPlog wrote:

Narita is no Gatwick.

As mentioned by others Narita will still be the Tokyo region's primary international airport and are proceeding with its own expansion to meet the demand.

Narita can expand all it wants but who is going to fly there ? British Airways, Air Canada, Qantas, Lufthansa, Air France, or Delta ? All these airlines clearly have a Haneda preference. Most airlines beyond Asia with only a handful of flights to Japan daily have spoken by moving their flights, at least those they could. IF Chinese airline want to flood NRT with flights from the PRC go for it.

Clearly, British Airways, Air Canada, Qantas, and Air France all fly to Narita. Therefore, you are wrong. Would they prefer to fly to Haneda? Absolutely. But realistically, HND doesn't have enough space for them to move their entire operation over. Hence, only the flagship routes like LHR-HND, YYZ-HND, SYD-HND, and CDG-HND get the preferred airport. Secondary routes and frequencies will continue to use NRT for the forseeable future.

In the future, if any airline wants to add service to Tokyo, they will have to use Narita. Airlines will treat NRT as a waiting list, and anytime HND opens up for new slots, it's a fierce competition to grab as many lucrative slots as possible.

LAXintl wrote:

JAL schedule details:

A little less capacity from JL than anticipated:

• No BOS-HND materializing, even though previously rumored.
• ORD-NRT dropped between S20 and W21.
• JFK-NRT cut in favor of 2nd daily JFK-HND.
• LAX-NRT downgauged from 77W to 788.
• HNL-NRT cut by 2x daily flights, both moving over to HND.

I suppose it makes sense given the aircraft constraints, but it looks like the AA+JL JV will only be slightly up in overall U.S.-Japan capacity next summer. Basically the difference of a 772->77W upgauge on one DFW-TYO frequency plus the new JL SFO-NRT 788 service. The new frequency in LAX-TYO (which amounts to 1 daily JL 788) offsets the lost capacity of 4x weekly JL 788 + 3x weekly AA 788 on ORD-TYO. The other new HND flights are all just moving capacity directly over from NRT, I believe.

What will NH or JL add from NRT now that there is extra capacity with the NRT to HND shift?

I can see NH or JL start flights to MAD, BCN, DUB, MAN, or ZRH. For North America, MIA, LAS and YYZ are possible too. They could also take the risk and fly to destinations in Africa, the Middle East, and South America.

https://www.aviationwire.jp/archives/190330
JAL said that, while the amount of flight they operate out of Narita after 2020 March Haneda slot expansion would transiently drop from the current 31 routes 40 daily flights to the 27 routes 34 daily flights as some routes are migrated to Haneda, they would like to increase the number of daily flight at Narita back to about 41-43 daily flight by the end of Fiscal Year 2020 (2021 March). They have also said that they want to add three to five new routes out of Narita in the fiscal year 2020 that have yet to be announced, including approximately one new route on ZIP Air to Asia.
https://www.aviationwire.jp/archives/190298
They have also said that they are positioning Haneda to be a domestic-international transfer hub while Narita would be an international-international transfer hub. Specifically, the move of Honolulu flights from Narita to Haneda is being mentioned as to attract passengers from all around Japan to use the flight to reach Hawaii
Also, JAL will be launching NRT-Vladivostok in February 2020 and NRT-Bangalore in March 2020

ST165 wrote:

jfk777 wrote:

UPlog wrote:

Narita is no Gatwick.

As mentioned by others Narita will still be the Tokyo region's primary international airport and are proceeding with its own expansion to meet the demand.

Narita can expand all it wants but who is going to fly there ? British Airways, Air Canada, Qantas, Lufthansa, Air France, or Delta ? All these airlines clearly have a Haneda preference. Most airlines beyond Asia with only a handful of flights to Japan daily have spoken by moving their flights, at least those they could. IF Chinese airline want to flood NRT with flights from the PRC go for it.

Well, I guess all the international airlines serving NRT should close up shop then, because there isn't going to be any more HND slots in the near future. Heck, JL and NH should also close half their international operations - must be running some accounting fraud to still be filling up planes profitably from NRT.

Accounting Fraud ? Really, cut half their operations ? Hardly, you must be a student of the Argentine school of Airline management to keep loosing state owned airlines in business. I will follow Willie Walsh and Bob Crandall, thank you.

I just flew through Haneda last week in transit from China. I had to transit to NRT, that’s a different story on how that can be sold as one ticket

But the int’l terminal is jammed now at Haneda. We parked at a remote stand. It was fairly efficient via the bus, but there weren’t many more stands available.

Someone mentioned this is like the Gatwick move to Heathrow. But Haneda only has this one terminal open for int’l flights. I wonder if somehow they’ll be converting one of the domestic terminals to int’l.

When comparing the two Tokyo Airports to London Airports,

Haneda is more like London City, Narita is LHR, and KIX (or any other Japanese City) is LGW

Kbud wrote:

Someone mentioned this is like the Gatwick move to Heathrow. But Haneda only has this one terminal open for int’l flights. I wonder if somehow they’ll be converting one of the domestic terminals to int’l.

Well HND T2 is expanding with 7 new gates to handle international flights used exclusively by NH.

bourbon wrote:

When comparing the two Tokyo Airports to London Airports,

Haneda is more like London City, Narita is LHR, and KIX (or any other Japanese City) is LGW

Interesting comparison.
Do you know how far KIX is to central Tokyo versus LGW to central London?
So what is Glasgow, Asahikawa?

FSDan wrote:

LAXintl wrote:

JAL schedule details:
[*]JFK-NRT cut in favor of 2nd daily JFK-HND.

JAL did not make any statement regarding its existing NRT-JFK service, so I think it stays maybe with smaller aircraft such as 788 or 789.
Int'l configured A350s will come in 2020, so they should come into the mix.

Carpethead wrote:

FSDan wrote:

LAXintl wrote:

JAL schedule details:
[*]JFK-NRT cut in favor of 2nd daily JFK-HND.

JAL did not make any statement regarding its existing NRT-JFK service, so I think it stays maybe with smaller aircraft such as 788 or 789.
Int'l configured A350s will come in 2020, so they should come into the mix.

They did not put it the body of the press release. The first appendix states that JL 3/4 NRT-JFK is being suspended.

bourbon wrote:

When comparing the two Tokyo Airports to London Airports,

Haneda is more like London City, Narita is LHR, and KIX (or any other Japanese City) is LGW

Except HND is, and always will be, larger than NRT. Actually, HND-CTS alone has 2x the pax annually than all routes from LCY.

Operation aside, HND=LHR and NRT=LGW is a good comparison. Numbers also match (i.e. HND/NRT being the busiest and 2nd busiest airport in Japan, similar to LHR/LGW being busiest and 2nd busiest airport in UK). But no, with a much larger domestic sector in Japan compare to UK, HND will never be 100% LHR as JL and NH simply can't move every single flights from NRT to HND.

For other comparison, KIX+ITM = MAN (UKB would be like LPL). NGO = BHX.

usflyer msp wrote:

Carpethead wrote:

FSDan wrote:

JAL did not make any statement regarding its existing NRT-JFK service, so I think it stays maybe with smaller aircraft such as 788 or 789.
Int'l configured A350s will come in 2020, so they should come into the mix.

They did not put it the body of the press release. The first appendix states that JL 3/4 NRT-JFK is being suspended.

Thanks. I missed that. Anyways a better utilization of aircraft that would otherwise sit close to 18 hours at JFK.

Will JL/NH start HND-DEL/BOM/MAA/BLR routes to account for the switch to Haneda for U.S. routes? Or are they just gonna let Emirates and Turkish take their NA-India traffic?

leftcoast8 wrote:

Will JL/NH start HND-DEL/BOM/MAA/BLR routes to account for the switch to Haneda for U.S. routes? Or are they just gonna let Emirates and Turkish take their NA-India traffic?

Only a single frequency is allotted for India which is being split between ANA and JAL. Each will offer a DEL flight, but not really timed for U.S. connections.

LAXintl wrote:

Only a single frequency is allotted for India which is being split between ANA and JAL. Each will offer a DEL flight, but not really timed for U.S. connections.

Which Asian flights, then, are timed for India connections from the U.S. and Canada? I know CX used to get the majority of connecting India traffic from YVR (Delhi was the most popular onward destination on the YVR-HKG route).

leftcoast8 wrote:

Will JL/NH start HND-DEL/BOM/MAA/BLR routes to account for the switch to Haneda for U.S. routes? Or are they just gonna let Emirates and Turkish take their NA-India traffic?

JL and NH would rather capture high yield Japan O&D traffic with the new HND flights than chase after low yield India connections and waste aircraft on 9+ hour long hauls.

leftcoast8 wrote:

LAXintl wrote:

Only a single frequency is allotted for India which is being split between ANA and JAL. Each will offer a DEL flight, but not really timed for U.S. connections.

Which Asian flights, then, are timed for India connections from the U.S. and Canada? I know CX used to get the majority of connecting India traffic from YVR (Delhi was the most popular onward destination on the YVR-HKG route).

Korean Air can connect YVR, SEA, SFO, and LAX to BOM.
Air China, China Eastern, China Southern, and China Airlines can connect YVR, SFO, and LAX to DEL.

Most of these East Asia-DEL flights are less than daily, so these airlines don't have a huge market share in US-India. However, CA, MU, and CZ often offer dirt cheap fares for around $500-700 USD from West Coast to Delhi, and that will attract some flyers.

Finally, Cathay Pacific and Singapore carry the bulk of US-India transit traffic across the Pacific. CX's daytime flights from YVR/SFO/LAX connect well to DEL, BOM, BLR, MAA, HYD, and CCU. Singapore's daytime flights from SEA and SFO connect well to BLR, MAA, HYD, and CCU, and COK. At SFO, I observe that almost half of the passengers on CX879/870 (the daytime SFO-HKG) are connecting to India. SQ 31/32 also carries a significant number of Indian connections.

Anyways, going back on topic, I don't think it makes sense for ANA and JAL to chase after US-India connections. Japan-India flights are 9+ hours long, yields are low, and local demand isn't that high. CX and SQ can make it work because 1.) there is much larger local demand to India, and 2.) the flights are only 5-6 hours.

jfk777 wrote:

ST165 wrote:

jfk777 wrote:

Narita can expand all it wants but who is going to fly there ? British Airways, Air Canada, Qantas, Lufthansa, Air France, or Delta ? All these airlines clearly have a Haneda preference. Most airlines beyond Asia with only a handful of flights to Japan daily have spoken by moving their flights, at least those they could. IF Chinese airline want to flood NRT with flights from the PRC go for it.

Well, I guess all the international airlines serving NRT should close up shop then, because there isn't going to be any more HND slots in the near future. Heck, JL and NH should also close half their international operations - must be running some accounting fraud to still be filling up planes profitably from NRT.

Accounting Fraud ? Really, cut half their operations ? Hardly, you must be a student of the Argentine school of Airline management to keep loosing state owned airlines in business. I will follow Willie Walsh and Bob Crandall, thank you.

The sarcasm flew over your head faster than a TOGA take off huh?

77H

From Sam Chui's website https://samchui.com/2019/11/21/ana-adds ... dbpEeRCdPY
ANA is adding ARN, MXP, IST, MOW and SZX next summer.
Surprised they haven't considered AMS & MAN.

I'd say MAN could come in time, the 2 parties are certainly in advanced dialogue with each other but it's probably right that these routes come first.

Maybe one for 2021.

I believe direct flights between NRT and DUB are imminent due to recent discussions between Japan and Ireland.

http://merrionstreet.ie/en/News-Room//I ... tions.html

It’s unclear which airline would start operations though.

seanwd209 wrote:

I believe direct flights between NRT and DUB are imminent due to recent discussions between Japan and Ireland.

http://merrionstreet.ie/en/News-Room//I ... tions.html

It’s unclear which airline would start operations though.

Aer Lingus flying to Tokyo would be great and welcome news. EI's A330-200 could probably make NRT nonstop from Dublin but an A350 would be great for EI. It would convey an intention to go to other Asian cities.

What other routes could ANA and JAL open at NRT since slots will be left over due to shifting of flights to HND?

India airlines still need to be confirmed and SAS, even when they have a chance they have taken longer than JAL and ANA

China:
CA: PEK-HND
FM: PVG-HND (Shanghai Airlines, China Eastern Group)
MU: PKX-HND
CZ: PKX-HND
1x daily each

PRC service from HND in NS2020

Beijing Capital (PEK)
CA 5 daily
HU 3/w
JL 2 daily
NH 2 daily

Beijing Daxing (PKX)
CZ 1 daily
MU 1 daily

Dalian (DLC)
JL 1 daily

Guangzhou (CAN)
CZ 2 daily
JL 1 daily
NH 1 daily

Qindao (TAO)
NH 1 daily

Shanghai Hongqiao (SHA)
FM 1 daily
JL 1 daily
MU 1 daily
NH 1 daily

Shanghai Pudong (PVG)
FM 10/w
HO 3/w
JL 2 daily
MM 1 daily
MU 2 daily
NH 2 daily
9C 4/w

Shenzhen (SZX)
NH 1 daily

Tianjin (TSN)
BK 3/w
GS 4/w

Russia service from HND in NS2020

Moscow Domodedovo (DME)
NH (not yet fixed)

Moscow Sheremetyevo (SVO)
JL 1 daily
SU 1 daily

Vladivostok (VVO)
S7 1 daily

JL will suspend current NRT-DME, will transfer from DME to SVO for code share agreement with SU.
SU will end NRT operation.

Virgin Australia's HND schedule has been released.

VA077 BNE 11:40 HND 20:00 A332 D
VA076 HND 21:45 BNE 07:45+1 A332 D

Actually mix of 330/340 and 350 by SAS

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... arch-2020/

QF confims MEL-NRT shifts to HND with A330.

https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media ... -in-japan/