User avatar
mercure1
Posts: 4510
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:13 am

Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:28 am

I guess countries like New Zealand, Switzerland missed out again.

The ANA-JAL split seems pretty good.
Suppose we will see JAL transfer its Helsinki service to HND.
Wonder where in Italy ANA will go - MXP or FCO? They currently codeshare with AZ to both
The India 0.5 for each far from ideal.
Where in "Scandinavia" will ANA go - ARN, CPH, OSL?

The U.S. allocations will also be interesting to see what the airlines pick in coordination with their JV partners.
mercure f-wtcc
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 7025
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:35 am

mercure1 wrote:
I guess countries like New Zealand, Switzerland missed out again.

The ANA-JAL split seems pretty good.
Suppose we will see JAL transfer its Helsinki service to HND.
Wonder where in Italy ANA will go - MXP or FCO? They currently codeshare with AZ to both
The India 0.5 for each far from ideal.
Where in "Scandinavia" will ANA go - ARN, CPH, OSL?

The U.S. allocations will also be interesting to see what the airlines pick in coordination with their JV partners.


NZ do have HND slots, they served it 3 weekly in 2017/18, I’m guessing they used what they had so only 3 weekly allocated? They dropped it due aircraft utilisation particularly with the 789 RR issues. Not sure if they plan to go back.
 
Jetty
Posts: 1012
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:28 am

mercure1 wrote:
I guess countries like New Zealand, Switzerland missed out again.

I'd say AMS/The Netherlands is the biggest loser here: AMS will be the only airport with more than daily NRT service by the local carrier in a country with no HND slots.
Last edited by Jetty on Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
LondonXtreme
Posts: 141
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:24 pm

Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:30 am

mercure1 wrote:
I guess countries like New Zealand, Switzerland missed out again.

The ANA-JAL split seems pretty good.
Suppose we will see JAL transfer its Helsinki service to HND.
Wonder where in Italy ANA will go - MXP or FCO? They currently codeshare with AZ to both
The India 0.5 for each far from ideal.
Where in "Scandinavia" will ANA go - ARN, CPH, OSL?

The U.S. allocations will also be interesting to see what the airlines pick in coordination with their JV partners.

SK will transfer CPH to HND for sure and maybe uses current NRT slot for ARN
AY and TK will transfer existing NRT flights to HND
SV only has one daily NRT, not sure if they plan to start 2nd daily. Also, I'm not surprise if they use HND slot for VVO
QF might exist NRT operation by transferring MEL and BNE flight to HND

We will see how NH and JL utilise valuable slots for China. Typically, they will only consider PVG and PEK. If both NH and JL plan 1 for each, I guess NH and JL will end NRT-PEK. The demand between PEK-TYO is way less compare to PVG-TYO.
 
Flanker7
Posts: 358
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 4:38 pm

Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:56 am

Jetty wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
I guess countries like New Zealand, Switzerland missed out again.

I'd say AMS/The Netherlands is the biggest loser here: AMS will be the only airport with more than daily NRT service by the local carrier in a country with no HND slots.

Agreed, and that their partner airlines DL and AF are at Haneda.
Flying blue only if possible
 
eamondzhang
Posts: 1421
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:23 am

Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:20 am

LondonXtreme wrote:
We will see how NH and JL utilise valuable slots for China. Typically, they will only consider PVG and PEK. If both NH and JL plan 1 for each, I guess NH and JL will end NRT-PEK. The demand between PEK-TYO is way less compare to PVG-TYO.

Having heard internally that NH's China slot are for SZX and CKG. Let's see how this plays out.

In any case I doubt there would be more PVG/PEK flights being added - maybe with the exemption of PKX.

Michael
 
Johnwilliams123
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2019 6:35 am

Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:00 am

LAXintl wrote:
Foreign route allocation for ANA - JAL

ANA
USA - 6
China - 2
Russia - 1
Australia - 1
India - 0.5
Italy - 1
Turkey - 1
Scandinavia - 1


JAL
USA - 6
China - 2
Russia - 1
Australia - 1
India - 0.5
Finland - 1


There has been rumours about ANA starting a Istanbul or Moscow service
 
User avatar
QuawerAir
Posts: 919
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:44 am

Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:18 am

LondonXtreme wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
I guess countries like New Zealand, Switzerland missed out again.

The ANA-JAL split seems pretty good.
Suppose we will see JAL transfer its Helsinki service to HND.
Wonder where in Italy ANA will go - MXP or FCO? They currently codeshare with AZ to both
The India 0.5 for each far from ideal.
Where in "Scandinavia" will ANA go - ARN, CPH, OSL?

The U.S. allocations will also be interesting to see what the airlines pick in coordination with their JV partners.

AY and TK will transfer existing NRT flights to HND

I don't think AY will move its NRT flights to HND anytime soon. It's more likely that AY will open HND route with A350 while maintaining its 2 daily NRT flights.
ATL, AYT, FRA, FUE, HEL, JFK, LCA, LHR, MUC | AY, BA, DL, FH, LH, LO | A320, A321, A333, 752, 764, 772, 788
The word "Quawer" means nothing but it looks great.
 
User avatar
deltacto
Posts: 445
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 5:49 pm

Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:23 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Foreign route allocation for ANA - JAL

ANA
USA - 6
China - 2
Russia - 1
Australia - 1
India - 0.5
Italy - 1
Turkey - 1
Scandinavia - 1


JAL
USA - 6
China - 2
Russia - 1
Australia - 1
India - 0.5
Finland - 1


How will JAL and ANA each use half a slot for India?
 
Ishrion
Posts: 1368
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:17 am

Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:34 pm

deltacto wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Foreign route allocation for ANA - JAL

ANA
USA - 6
China - 2
Russia - 1
Australia - 1
India - 0.5
Italy - 1
Turkey - 1
Scandinavia - 1


JAL
USA - 6
China - 2
Russia - 1
Australia - 1
India - 0.5
Finland - 1


How will JAL and ANA each use half a slot for India?


3x weekly flight?
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 5899
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: Updated: Japan allocates Haneda international slots to 9 nations

Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:53 pm

So how would NH/JL use their US slots? I’d think shifting IAH for NH would be a shoe in. Same for DFW and JL
"I dance and laugh among the rotten"
 
User avatar
Tabito
Posts: 54
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 1:39 pm

Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:24 pm

deltacto wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Foreign route allocation for ANA - JAL

ANA
USA - 6
China - 2
Russia - 1
Australia - 1
India - 0.5
Italy - 1
Turkey - 1
Scandinavia - 1


JAL
USA - 6
China - 2
Russia - 1
Australia - 1
India - 0.5
Finland - 1


How will JAL and ANA each use half a slot for India?


0.5 means just "one way" for daytime.
1 for daytime (6:00 to 22:55) and another 1 must be night time (22:00 to 6:55).
 
Planes4you
Posts: 356
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:35 pm

Re: Updated: Japan allocates Haneda international slots to 9 nations

Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:33 pm

I’m betting JAL will move NRT-DFW to HND-DFW so they can send the 777
 
Planes4you
Posts: 356
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:35 pm

Re: Updated: Japan allocates Haneda international slots to 9 nations

Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:34 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
So how would NH/JL use their US slots? I’d think shifting IAH for NH would be a shoe in. Same for DFW and JL



I said the same thing and if JAL moves NRT-DFW they’d upgrade to a 777
 
User avatar
centrair
Posts: 2888
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2005 3:44 pm

Re: Updated: Japan allocates Haneda international slots to 9 nations

Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:36 pm

Exciting!!!! Look forward to some new movements at HND... with ANA moving international to T1 to integrate with domestic, it’ll become a very different international terminal.

I like how Scandinavia is listed as the three countries. Who wants to bet that they will NOT fly to Sweden or Norway but will choose Denmark.
My name is Centrair but HND is closer. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
Bazooka
Posts: 22
Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:01 pm

Re: Updated: Japan allocates Haneda international slots to 9 nations

Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:39 pm

Will ANA fly it’s Superjumbo out of HND to HNL instead of NRT?
 
mmahpeel
Posts: 59
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 11:18 pm

Re: Updated: Japan allocates Haneda international slots to 9 nations

Mon Sep 02, 2019 4:06 pm

centrair wrote:
Exciting!!!! Look forward to some new movements at HND... with ANA moving international to T1 to integrate with domestic, it’ll become a very different international terminal.


The ANA move to T1 is interesting. Isn't ANA at T2 for most domestic now? Are they consolidating all ANA ops at T1? I wonder if UA will stay at T3 (intl) then? I was looking for info on this but came up short. Do you have any links I can peruse?
 
EFHK
Posts: 393
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:52 am

Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Mon Sep 02, 2019 4:06 pm

QuawerAir wrote:
LondonXtreme wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
I guess countries like New Zealand, Switzerland missed out again.

The ANA-JAL split seems pretty good.
Suppose we will see JAL transfer its Helsinki service to HND.
Wonder where in Italy ANA will go - MXP or FCO? They currently codeshare with AZ to both
The India 0.5 for each far from ideal.
Where in "Scandinavia" will ANA go - ARN, CPH, OSL?

The U.S. allocations will also be interesting to see what the airlines pick in coordination with their JV partners.

AY and TK will transfer existing NRT flights to HND

I don't think AY will move its NRT flights to HND anytime soon. It's more likely that AY will open HND route with A350 while maintaining its 2 daily NRT flights.


Without more Russian overflight rights, AY can't just simply increase the number of flights to Japan without cutting something. If you see a 3rd frequency to TYO, what do you see would get cut?

I would see likely that they switch one frequency to HND, while keeping the other in NRT.

However, if they do indeed add HND as an additional frequency, with the current instability in HKG, the other daily frequency there would be a candidate to get cut in favor of HND.
 
wenders825
Posts: 358
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2016 7:29 pm

Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Mon Sep 02, 2019 4:14 pm

LAXintl wrote:
The non-US International awards are out today:

By country:
China - 4
Russia - 2
Australia - 2
India - 1
Italy - 1
Turkey - 1
Finland - 1
"Scandinavia" - 1

https://www.mlit.go.jp/report/press/kou ... 00196.html

insane that Malaysia Airlines couldn't get in on this, yet all surrounding countries' flag carriers have service.

will be exciting to see AY, SK, and LX at HND though
 
User avatar
QuawerAir
Posts: 919
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:44 am

Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Mon Sep 02, 2019 4:53 pm

EFHK wrote:
QuawerAir wrote:
LondonXtreme wrote:
AY and TK will transfer existing NRT flights to HND

I don't think AY will move its NRT flights to HND anytime soon. It's more likely that AY will open HND route with A350 while maintaining its 2 daily NRT flights.


Without more Russian overflight rights, AY can't just simply increase the number of flights to Japan without cutting something. If you see a 3rd frequency to TYO, what do you see would get cut?

I would see likely that they switch one frequency to HND, while keeping the other in NRT.

However, if they do indeed add HND as an additional frequency, with the current instability in HKG, the other daily frequency there would be a candidate to get cut in favor of HND.

That's actually a good point. I posted it without thinking any further. Yes, AY has to make some cuts if they'd fly to TYO 3 daily. One option is indeed swapping one daily NRT-flight to HND. Another option is that they decide with JAL to evade the Russian overflight restriction by launching HND–HEL service operated by JAL. Under the JV agreement, this is not completely out. They could also cut some HKG flight but I would not like to see that happen.

Now that we're talking about the Russian overflight rights, could we see some expansion to North America given that AY cannot add many flights to Asia? They receive one A350 in the 1H2020 which will be used 3 weekly to Busan. Thus, it could be used on another route for 3-4 weekly operations. I've also understood AY will receive another A350 in 1H2020 as well. They have to place them somewhere. As CKG will not be served in S20, an A330 will be released from this route as well (4 weekly operations).
ATL, AYT, FRA, FUE, HEL, JFK, LCA, LHR, MUC | AY, BA, DL, FH, LH, LO | A320, A321, A333, 752, 764, 772, 788
The word "Quawer" means nothing but it looks great.
 
hooverman
Posts: 281
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:20 pm

Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:07 pm

Flanker7 wrote:
Jetty wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
I guess countries like New Zealand, Switzerland missed out again.

I'd say AMS/The Netherlands is the biggest loser here: AMS will be the only airport with more than daily NRT service by the local carrier in a country with no HND slots.

Agreed, and that their partner airlines DL and AF are at Haneda.


Are you sure KLM even wants to fly to HND?
Perhaps NRT is more attractive for KLM as others are leaving for HND.
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 2848
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: Updated: Japan allocates Haneda international slots to 9 nations

Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:23 pm

QuawerAir wrote:
That's actually a good point. I posted it without thinking any further. Yes, AY has to make some cuts if they'd fly to TYO 3 daily. One option is indeed swapping one daily NRT-flight to HND. Another option is that they decide with JAL to evade the Russian overflight restriction by launching HND–HEL service operated by JAL. Under the JV agreement, this is not completely out. They could also cut some HKG flight but I would not like to see that happen.


More likely that they'll just fly 1x HND-HEL and 1x NRT-HEL; JL then transfer their NRT-HEL to HND-HEL.

For HKG AFAIK most traffic are outbound from HKG anyway, so the instability is only going to affect things so much. Plus if HK is still a mess by March 2020, they would have more things to worried about than losing a HEL-HKG flight.

mmahpeel wrote:
centrair wrote:
Exciting!!!! Look forward to some new movements at HND... with ANA moving international to T1 to integrate with domestic, it’ll become a very different international terminal.


The ANA move to T1 is interesting. Isn't ANA at T2 for most domestic now? Are they consolidating all ANA ops at T1? I wonder if UA will stay at T3 (intl) then? I was looking for info on this but came up short. Do you have any links I can peruse?


I think it's a mistake by the OP. ANA is consolidating at T2 (NOT T1). T1 is JAL while T2 is ANA.

https://www.tokyo-airport-bldg.co.jp/fi ... 5_0617.pdf

It's basically a new CIQ (Custom/Immigration/Quarantine) facility and conversion of that wing to 5 gates that is shared between International and Domestic flights, and 2 International-exclusive gates.

Not sure whether UA can fit in there, though. There are just not enough gates.
Free Hong Kong! Free China!
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Topic Author
Posts: 23909
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Re: Updated: Japan allocates Haneda international slots to 9 nations

Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:33 pm

centrair wrote:
Exciting!!!! Look forward to some new movements at HND... with ANA moving international to T1 to integrate with domestic, it’ll become a very different international terminal.


Terminal -2

Bazooka wrote:
Will ANA fly it’s Superjumbo out of HND to HNL instead of NRT?


A380 is not authorized at HND.

wenders825 wrote:
insane that Malaysia Airlines couldn't get in on this, yet all surrounding countries' flag carriers have service.


Malaysia was one of the first countries that gained HND access. Rights were however given to Air Asia by the Malaysian government.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 2848
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: Updated: Japan allocates Haneda international slots to 9 nations

Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:54 pm

LAXintl wrote:
wenders825 wrote:
insane that Malaysia Airlines couldn't get in on this, yet all surrounding countries' flag carriers have service.


Malaysia was one of the first countries that gained HND access. Rights were however given to Air Asia by the Malaysian government.


Adding on, I don't understand the complaint about Malaysia. Clearly "new entrant" are given priority. It's not like other ASEAN countries (along with Taiwan and HK) are given any additional slots, either, nor UK/France/Germany.

Nobody tell MH to not even able to compete with AirAsia X anyway.
Free Hong Kong! Free China!
 
YYZORD
Posts: 388
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:26 pm

Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:24 pm

No love for Canada?

LAXintl wrote:
Foreign route allocation for ANA - JAL

ANA
USA - 6
China - 2
Russia - 1
Australia - 1
India - 0.5
Italy - 1
Turkey - 1
Scandinavia - 1


JAL
USA - 6
China - 2
Russia - 1
Australia - 1
India - 0.5
Finland - 1
 
MareBorealis
Posts: 60
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:16 pm

Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:04 pm

EFHK wrote:
QuawerAir wrote:
LondonXtreme wrote:
AY and TK will transfer existing NRT flights to HND

I don't think AY will move its NRT flights to HND anytime soon. It's more likely that AY will open HND route with A350 while maintaining its 2 daily NRT flights.


Without more Russian overflight rights, AY can't just simply increase the number of flights to Japan without cutting something. If you see a 3rd frequency to TYO, what do you see would get cut?

I would see likely that they switch one frequency to HND, while keeping the other in NRT.

However, if they do indeed add HND as an additional frequency, with the current instability in HKG, the other daily frequency there would be a candidate to get cut in favor of HND.


When AY started to expand outside NRT in Japan I remember one reason the gave was the limited slots in Tokyo area. Perhaps they consider making cuts in KIX NGO or FUK (summer) in favor of HND? In the coming winter they are starting a seasonal service to CTS also
 
UAEflyer
Posts: 1228
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:29 pm

Re: Updated: Japan allocates Haneda international slots to 9 nations

Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:11 pm

For many years the UAE government has been asking for a HND slot for EY and additional for EK. It seems no luck !
 
mmahpeel
Posts: 59
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 11:18 pm

Re: Updated: Japan allocates Haneda international slots to 9 nations

Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:20 pm

I think it's a mistake by the OP. ANA is consolidating at T2 (NOT T1). T1 is JAL while T2 is ANA.

https://www.tokyo-airport-bldg.co.jp/fi ... 5_0617.pdf

It's basically a new CIQ (Custom/Immigration/Quarantine) facility and conversion of that wing to 5 gates that is shared between International and Domestic flights, and 2 International-exclusive gates.

Not sure whether UA can fit in there, though. There are just not enough gates.



Thanks, that makes more sense than ANA moving to T1....
 
Waterbomber2
Posts: 495
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: Updated: Japan allocates Haneda international slots to 9 nations

Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:36 pm

So how does this work?
The slots have been allocated to Japanese airlines, are they allowed to lease out the slots to their partners?

It's surprising that HND would waste a slot on HEL despite that most traffic on this route is not O&D. I wonder if it will be used for growth or JL to transfer its service.
 
Jetty
Posts: 1012
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:39 pm

hooverman wrote:
Flanker7 wrote:
Jetty wrote:
I'd say AMS/The Netherlands is the biggest loser here: AMS will be the only airport with more than daily NRT service by the local carrier in a country with no HND slots.

Agreed, and that their partner airlines DL and AF are at Haneda.


Are you sure KLM even wants to fly to HND?
Perhaps NRT is more attractive for KLM as others are leaving for HND.

I see no reason why specifically KLM would prefer NRT above HND when every other airline seems to prefer HND.

Most likely the reason that The Netherlands is denied a slot is that ANA and JAL have no interest in flying to AMS at the moment, as it seems they do plan on using all other frequencies. Either because there might be no slots available at AMS or in ANA’s case that they’ve just started flights to BRU that yet have to develop and AMS being close (there is no other airline flying more than 5-weekly between BRU and Asia, and ANA is the only airline with daily flights that chose BRU over AMS).
Last edited by Jetty on Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
RainerBoeing777
Posts: 432
Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:43 pm

Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:50 pm

LAXintl wrote:
The non-US International awards are out today:

By country:
China - 4
Russia - 2
Australia - 2
India - 1
Italy - 1
Turkey - 1
Finland - 1
"Scandinavia" - 1

https://www.mlit.go.jp/report/press/kou ... 00196.html


*China will be super governed for those assigned to those slots, I think they will be awarded to Air China, China Southern, China Eastern and Hainan Airlines
*Russia, possibly Aerflot moves from SVO-NRT to SVO-HND and S7 Airlines from VVO-NRT to VVO-HND
*With the departure of the Boeing 747 Qantas increase another frequency to SYD-HND with Boeing 787-9 and some of the MEL / BNE-NRT services pass to HND potentially I see MEL-HND with Qantas
*Air India is launching new destinations ultimately possibly increasing to Tokyo with DEL-HND with Boeing 787-8
*Italy surprised me, possibly the slot is given by Alitalia, but I see two possible scenarios:
1. move the route FCO-NRT to FCO-HND
2. cancel MXP-NRT and fly double daily to Tokyo with FCO-NRT / HND
*Turkey, It is the opportunity for Turkish to return with his double diary to Tokyo with 1 flight to NRT and a flight to HND, potentially I see the IST-HND flight with Boeing 777-300ER and NRT with a mix B787 / A330 in the case of nrt such once it becomes seasonal or frequencies are reduced in low season
* Finland, most likely, Finnair moves one of its HEL-NRT services to HEL-HND, I don't see new services
*Obviously SAS will launch CPH-HND with Airbus A350-900XWB!
CX - JL - LH - KE - KL - SQ - QR - QF - TG
 
User avatar
QuawerAir
Posts: 919
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:44 am

Re: Updated: Japan allocates Haneda international slots to 9 nations

Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:23 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
So how does this work?
The slots have been allocated to Japanese airlines, are they allowed to lease out the slots to their partners?

It's surprising that HND would waste a slot on HEL despite that most traffic on this route is not O&D. I wonder if it will be used for growth or JL to transfer its service.

It's not surprising at all. It would've been surprising if they didn't give a slot for flights to HEL. A route doesn't always have to rely on O&D traffic.
ATL, AYT, FRA, FUE, HEL, JFK, LCA, LHR, MUC | AY, BA, DL, FH, LH, LO | A320, A321, A333, 752, 764, 772, 788
The word "Quawer" means nothing but it looks great.
 
User avatar
janders
Moderator
Posts: 913
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:27 pm

Re: Updated: Japan allocates Haneda international slots to 9 nations

Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:29 pm

What are odds one of the Australia rights goes to Virgin Australia?

QF already has a HND service. Are they really entitled to both additional new frequencies?
"We make war that we may live in peace." -- Aristotle
 
eamondzhang
Posts: 1421
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:23 am

Re: Updated: Japan allocates Haneda international slots to 9 nations

Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:14 pm

janders wrote:
What are odds one of the Australia rights goes to Virgin Australia?

QF already has a HND service. Are they really entitled to both additional new frequencies?

In theory they could, but more likely they're not in a position to start new flights unless they sacrifice something. It's not like they have partner in Japan after all.

Since Australia get two pairs QF will most likely grab at least one of that.

Waterbomber2 wrote:
So how does this work?
The slots have been allocated to Japanese airlines, are they allowed to lease out the slots to their partners?

It's surprising that HND would waste a slot on HEL despite that most traffic on this route is not O&D. I wonder if it will be used for growth or JL to transfer its service.

Japanese side must be JAL transferring service. HND slots are not transferable.

UAEflyer wrote:
For many years the UAE government has been asking for a HND slot for EY and additional for EK. It seems no luck !

Japan, from the surface of it, looks similar to China where they limit the number of flights by ME3.

Michael
 
nicode
Posts: 231
Joined: Fri May 11, 2012 7:58 pm

Re: Updated: Japan allocates Haneda international slots to 9 nations

Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:16 pm

Why so much slots allocation for USA only ?
 
Sydscott
Posts: 3442
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2003 11:50 am

Re: Updated: Japan allocates Haneda international slots to 9 nations

Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:39 pm

janders wrote:
What are odds one of the Australia rights goes to Virgin Australia?

QF already has a HND service. Are they really entitled to both additional new frequencies?


Virgin Australia's 777's, of which there are 5, are fully deployed to LAX. VA's A332's, of which there are 6, are utilised on domestic routes along with HKG. Given VA's losses and their current issues, it makes little sense to allocate them HND slots.

In terms of QF services, if they are allocated 2 slot pairs we would like see existing MEL and BNE services swapped from NRT to HND.

On SYD service, with the 744 leaving the fleet the SYD-HND service will swap to 789 and what you'll likely see is one of:

- QF or JQ flying SYD - NRT; or
- a more extensive codeshare relationship between QF and JL to make up for the 744 lost capacity on SYD-HND; or
- a joint venture application between QF and JL for Australia - Japan routes.

I think the last point is inevitable once ANA announces where they'll be increasing services.
 
eamondzhang
Posts: 1421
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:23 am

Re: Updated: Japan allocates Haneda international slots to 9 nations

Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:48 pm

nicode wrote:
Why so much slots allocation for USA only ?

Part of the deal with US since they opened up the airspace above Yokota Airbase (and apparently some other US bases as well), allowing runways 16L/R to be utilised for landing (flying over Tokyo CBD) and 22/23 for departure from S20.

Sydscott wrote:
- a more extensive codeshare relationship between QF and JL to make up for the 744 lost capacity on SYD-HND; or
- a joint venture application between QF and JL for Australia - Japan routes.


Think this two are highly unlikely given they'll still command about 75-80% of total market share with any sort of cooperation, regardless of where ANA flies with its additional HND slot. Any applications will likely be shot down by ACCC.

Michael
 
clrd4t8koff
Posts: 1569
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 3:57 am

Re: Updated: Japan allocates Haneda international slots to 9 nations

Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:53 pm

Planes4you wrote:
I’m betting JAL will move NRT-DFW to HND-DFW so they can send the 777


Why would JL need to move DFW to HND to send the 777 when they could send the 777 from NRT today???
 
hooverman
Posts: 281
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:20 pm

Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:19 pm

Jetty wrote:
hooverman wrote:
Flanker7 wrote:
Agreed, and that their partner airlines DL and AF are at Haneda.


Are you sure KLM even wants to fly to HND?
Perhaps NRT is more attractive for KLM as others are leaving for HND.

I see no reason why specifically KLM would prefer NRT above HND when every other airline seems to prefer HND.

Most likely the reason that The Netherlands is denied a slot is that ANA and JAL have no interest in flying to AMS at the moment, as it seems they do plan on using all other frequencies. Either because there might be no slots available at AMS or in ANA’s case that they’ve just started flights to BRU that yet have to develop and AMS being close (there is no other airline flying more than 5-weekly between BRU and Asia, and ANA is the only airline with daily flights that chose BRU over AMS).


I have never heard KL was looking at HND so I am guessing they are happy enough at NRT.
It does look like it's mostly cities that are served by Japanese airlines or that have an alliance with one of them are getting the HND slots so that seems to count.
It is taking a long time for JAL or ANA to (re)start AMS(on a sidenote).
 
DWC
Posts: 608
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:49 pm

Re: Updated: Japan allocates Haneda international slots to 9 nations

Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:52 pm

hooverman wrote:
Most likely the reason that The Netherlands is denied a slot is that ANA and JAL have no interest in flying to AMS at the moment, as it seems they do plan on using all other frequencies. Either because there might be no slots available at AMS or in ANA’s case that they’ve just started flights to BRU that yet have to develop and AMS being close (there is no other airline flying more than 5-weekly between BRU and Asia, and ANA is the only airline with daily flights that chose BRU over AMS).
It is taking a long time for JAL or ANA to (re)start AMS(on a sidenote)

Business wise, even politically wise, Amsterdam is not Tokyo, KLM surely wants to fly there, but why would the Japanese fly to a lesser Skyteam hub ? BRU is not the only one close to AMS, Star hubs CPH & FRA can serve it well, BA also from LHR.
And then the Japanese love Paris, so for a nation with few holidays, AMS is somewhere deep down the list.


UAEflyer wrote:
For many years the UAE government has been asking for a HND slot for EY and additional for EK. It seems no luck !

The UAE have been eating into other's turfs without appropriate O/D.
That Thailand, the UK or Australia allow that is their business, to the demise of their local airlines flying those routes.
Canada, China & Japan have no national interest in flying to the UAE, so no need to grant them anything more, I don't know if Abu Dhabi even exports oil to Japan. In any case, flights from the EU to Japan are premium enough to be protected for their O/D, Finnair can take the lower yields (it is essentially a LH LCC service to Y Pax)
Europe would want to limit the ME3, but Airbus also wants to sell hundreds of frames, so something has to give.
 
ITSTours
Posts: 461
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:51 pm

Re: Updated: Japan allocates Haneda international slots to 9 nations

Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:25 am

Wow, my speculation is way off. China 4 slots and Russia 2 slots are unbelievable.
India, Italy, Scandinavia and Turkey make sense.
 
LondonXtreme
Posts: 141
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:24 pm

Re: Updated: Japan allocates Haneda international slots to 9 nations

Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:59 am

Air Canada must be fairly disappointed, I guess both JL and NH are not interested expanding more in Canada
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 5899
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: Updated: Japan allocates Haneda international slots to 9 nations

Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:08 am

clrd4t8koff wrote:
Planes4you wrote:
I’m betting JAL will move NRT-DFW to HND-DFW so they can send the 777


Why would JL need to move DFW to HND to send the 777 when they could send the 777 from NRT today???


I would personally consider a 789 to a 777 a downgrade.
"I dance and laugh among the rotten"
 
FSDan
Posts: 2658
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Re: Updated: Japan allocates Haneda international slots to 9 nations

Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:55 am

LAXdude1023 wrote:
So how would NH/JL use their US slots? I’d think shifting IAH for NH would be a shoe in. Same for DFW and JL


I think NH on IAH-HND is much more certain than JL on DFW-HND, simply because AA got DFW-HND and UA didn't get IAH-HND. DFW-TYO isn't such a large local market that AA/JL need two of their three flights to go to HND, in my opinion. I think the top priority for JL will be ORD-HND. I think SEA-HND, SAN-HND, LAS-HND, BOS-HND, and HNL-HND are also likely, although I could see DFW-HND in place of SEA-HND.

For NH, I think IAH-HND is most certain, with SFO-HND, SJC-HND, and additional Hawai'i-HND pretty likely. SEA-HND is also a possibility. I could see NH starting a new route or two to the mainland (PDX-HND, LAS-HND, etc.), or possibly using one of their frequencies to GUM.
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
Sydscott
Posts: 3442
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2003 11:50 am

Re: Updated: Japan allocates Haneda international slots to 9 nations

Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:17 am

eamondzhang wrote:

Sydscott wrote:
- a more extensive codeshare relationship between QF and JL to make up for the 744 lost capacity on SYD-HND; or
- a joint venture application between QF and JL for Australia - Japan routes.


Think this two are highly unlikely given they'll still command about 75-80% of total market share with any sort of cooperation, regardless of where ANA flies with its additional HND slot. Any applications will likely be shot down by ACCC.

Michael


I wouldn't be so sure as an ACCC position will take into account both the direct and indirect marketshare of Qantas and JAL in their assessment. There is also, in my opinion, no counterfactual position to take whereby competition emerges from the Australian side to Japan however that would also take into account the substantial amount of indirect competition for pax.

So it's not as straight forward as looking at direct marketshare.
 
User avatar
TheFlyingDisk
Posts: 1884
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:43 pm

Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:52 am

wenders825 wrote:
insane that Malaysia Airlines couldn't get in on this, yet all surrounding countries' flag carriers have service.


MH had slots at HND way back in the early 2010s, which they used for BKI-HND services. D7 then acquired one slot given to Transmile (because the government wanted to play fair, they gave 3 each to D7 & MH, and one to Transmile), so they were able to dominate.

And then the "Share Swap" fiasco happened, which saw the 3 MH slot siphoned off to D7. Now they're running daily services while MH twiddles their thumbs in NRT.
I FLY KLM+ALASKA+QATAR+MALAYSIA+AIRASIA+MALINDO
 
eamondzhang
Posts: 1421
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:23 am

Re: Updated: Japan allocates Haneda international slots to 9 nations

Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:24 am

Sydscott wrote:
eamondzhang wrote:

Sydscott wrote:
- a more extensive codeshare relationship between QF and JL to make up for the 744 lost capacity on SYD-HND; or
- a joint venture application between QF and JL for Australia - Japan routes.


Think this two are highly unlikely given they'll still command about 75-80% of total market share with any sort of cooperation, regardless of where ANA flies with its additional HND slot. Any applications will likely be shot down by ACCC.

Michael


I wouldn't be so sure as an ACCC position will take into account both the direct and indirect marketshare of Qantas and JAL in their assessment. There is also, in my opinion, no counterfactual position to take whereby competition emerges from the Australian side to Japan however that would also take into account the substantial amount of indirect competition for pax.

So it's not as straight forward as looking at direct marketshare.

I wouldn't be so sure - look at the HKG example, and that was just a codeshare versus the full JV that we're discussing here.

Competition environment is similar - CX and QF dominates the market (although with more flights), and the only direct competition comes from the twice daily VA flights.

If this has any indications, JL/QF would face similar scenario in Japan to Australia market as you could argue NH's twice daily flights are the only competition that they face.

Michael
 
c933103
Posts: 3850
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Japan allocates additional Haneda international slots to ANA & JAL

Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:21 am

mercure1 wrote:
The India 0.5 for each far from ideal.

According to Japanese news site https://www.aviationwire.jp/archives/182833 ,
That 0.5 daytime slot for India is going to be coupled with 0.5 nighttime/early morning slot for both carriers.
Also, ANA getting Italy, Turkey, and Scandinavia while JAL getting Finland was reportedly a decision being made according to codeshare partner of each of the two carriers.
It is not possible to counter violence with peace when the goal of the violence is to take away everything you have. #HongKong
 
Jetty
Posts: 1012
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

Re: Updated: Japan allocates Haneda international slots to 9 nations

Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:28 am

DWC wrote:
Business wise, even politically wise, Amsterdam is not Tokyo, KLM surely wants to fly there, but why would the Japanese fly to a lesser Skyteam hub ? BRU is not the only one close to AMS, Star hubs CPH & FRA can serve it well, BA also from LHR.

For the same reason AMS is served by an Asian airline from 10 out of 11 largest Asian airports, including by non-Skyteam airlines like SQ, BR and CX?
 
fessor
Posts: 109
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:26 pm

Re: Updated: Japan allocates Haneda international slots to 9 nations

Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:48 pm

Jetty wrote:
DWC wrote:
Business wise, even politically wise, Amsterdam is not Tokyo, KLM surely wants to fly there, but why would the Japanese fly to a lesser Skyteam hub ? BRU is not the only one close to AMS, Star hubs CPH & FRA can serve it well, BA also from LHR.

For the same reason AMS is served by an Asian airline from 10 out of 11 largest Asian airports, including by non-Skyteam airlines like SQ, BR and CX?


Maybe it's more About getting slots in AMS

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos