airzona11
Posts: 1538
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:44 am

Re: China Eastern sets up Air 123 to exclusively fly home-grown Chinese jets including ARJ21, C919

Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:32 am

Show how difficult and how much skill and expertise are needed to produce commercial airplanes. It is 2019 and there are no players not named Airbus or Boeing.
 
anrec80
Posts: 2110
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: China Eastern sets up Air 123 to exclusively fly home-grown Chinese jets including ARJ21, C919

Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:35 am

c933103 wrote:
1. ZTE was found to be violated the Iran sanction. They get itself away from the situation by agreeing to comply with American regulation and supplying evidence of Huawei's violation.


It has been said to have been found. There were never any finding process, and there isn't described anywhere in legislature. The U.S. sanctions is total voluntarism - someone feels like imposing something, and they just go do it. No reason or even cause needed.

c933103 wrote:
2. China have been building up its belt and road program to prepare itself for what will happen if they are blocked from western economy.


Everyone now has to be ready for it. Europe included.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1226
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: China Eastern sets up Air 123 to exclusively fly home-grown Chinese jets including ARJ21, C919

Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:45 am

anrec80 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Can’t agree more - perfectly prudent thing to do. Reduce reliance on American entities as much as you can - to the point of eliminating American suppliers.

I think I see a problem with that:

Image


Yes, a known problem. Current variant of SSJ has it too. Irkut MS-21 however does not. The only major dependency on the USA in that plane was composite fiber - and as soon as that got under sanctions, there came up a Russian supplier. Yes, that caused a small (a few months) launch delay, but several million USD per plane will remain in Russia, and not produce scarce middle class jobs and tax revenue for the USA. And I am sure Comac and Chinese government are working on a solution to this problem, and the next iteration of C919 will be much more Chinese.

Remind me of how successful the MS-21 is? 3 prototypes build and a whooping 175 firm orders (as of July 2018); not a stellar seller...
 
ewt340
Posts: 821
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: China Eastern sets up Air 123 to exclusively fly home-grown Chinese jets including ARJ21, C919

Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:09 am

I guess my extended families knows which airlines to avoid when they travel in the future.
 
chrisp390
Posts: 689
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 6:37 pm

Re: China Eastern sets up Air 123 to exclusively fly home-grown Chinese jets including ARJ21, C919

Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:10 am

anrec80 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Can’t agree more - perfectly prudent thing to do. Reduce reliance on American entities as much as you can - to the point of eliminating American suppliers.

I think I see a problem with that:

Image


Yes, a known problem. Current variant of SSJ has it too. Irkut MS-21 however does not. The only major dependency on the USA in that plane was composite fiber - and as soon as that got under sanctions, there came up a Russian supplier. Yes, that caused a small (a few months) launch delay, but several million USD per plane will remain in Russia, and not produce scarce middle class jobs and tax revenue for the USA. And I am sure Comac and Chinese government are working on a solution to this problem, and the next iteration of C919 will be much more Chinese.


Xi Dada is causing chaos in China right now and the country has a lot more to think about now (trade war, bad Chinese economy, falling yuan, many companies leaving China, Hong Kong issues). If these issues get resolved the central government will have more time to focus on these kind of projects and moving more of this production to China but right now there is too much else going on distracting them.
 
ewt340
Posts: 821
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: China Eastern sets up Air 123 to exclusively fly home-grown Chinese jets including ARJ21, C919

Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:20 am

Revelation wrote:
Erebus wrote:
So going by that pic, pretty much just the empty shell is made in China. Everything else that makes the thing fly comes from Western suppliers.

They have a handle on the belt and the road but not on the sky.


Lol yeah no, One Belt, One Road is a complete failures for other countries that sign up to it. Many countries are forced to give China control of some areas in their own territory because they can't pay back the money China loaned them.

Many projects around the world are either abandoned or unfinished. So yeah, it hasn't work well for them or their partners who sign up for it.

I wouldn't put much faith in their technology for at least 50 years down the line. And I'm saying this as a person who have lots of families in Mainland China.
 
anrec80
Posts: 2110
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: China Eastern sets up Air 123 to exclusively fly home-grown Chinese jets including ARJ21, C919

Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:47 am

WayexTDI wrote:
Remind me of how successful the MS-21 is? 3 prototypes build and a whooping 175 firm orders (as of July 2018); not a stellar seller...


First - better than nothing, and second - in this political climate, it’s not about stellar sales, it’s about having this offering on the market and this airframer.
 
anrec80
Posts: 2110
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: China Eastern sets up Air 123 to exclusively fly home-grown Chinese jets including ARJ21, C919

Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:49 am

chrisp390 wrote:
Xi Dada is causing chaos in China right now and the country has a lot more to think about now (trade war, bad Chinese economy, falling yuan, many companies leaving China, Hong Kong issues). If these issues get resolved the central government will have more time to focus on these kind of projects and moving more of this production to China but right now there is too much else going on distracting them.


Global competition is intensifying. Some of the issues you mentioned will not get resolved and are to be treated like permanent conditions or transformations (trade wars, sanctions threats), others - can get resolved, but other challenges will come. Chinese government needs to realize that they are to work in new, harder conditions.
 
c933103
Posts: 3824
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: China Eastern sets up Air 123 to exclusively fly home-grown Chinese jets including ARJ21, C919

Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:17 am

anrec80 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
1. ZTE was found to be violated the Iran sanction. They get itself away from the situation by agreeing to comply with American regulation and supplying evidence of Huawei's violation.


It has been said to have been found. There were never any finding process, and there isn't described anywhere in legislature. The U.S. sanctions is total voluntarism - someone feels like imposing something, and they just go do it. No reason or even cause needed.


Just because you didn't read those documents doesn't mean they don't exists
When no other countries around the world is going to militarily stop China and its subordinate fom abusing its citizens within its national boundary, it is unreasonable to expect those abuse can be countered with purely peaceful means.
 
anrec80
Posts: 2110
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: China Eastern sets up Air 123 to exclusively fly home-grown Chinese jets including ARJ21, C919

Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:12 am

c933103 wrote:
Just because you didn't read those documents doesn't mean they don't exists


Even if these voluntaristric decisions are documented - what does it change? Documentation doesn’t make these sanctions any less voluntaristic, and doesn’t change their perceptions.
 
c933103
Posts: 3824
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: China Eastern sets up Air 123 to exclusively fly home-grown Chinese jets including ARJ21, C919

Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:26 am

anrec80 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Just because you didn't read those documents doesn't mean they don't exists


Even if these voluntaristric decisions are documented - what does it change? Documentation doesn’t make these sanctions any less voluntaristic, and doesn’t change their perceptions.

Just because you ignored explanations provided by those documents doesn't mean they don't exists
When no other countries around the world is going to militarily stop China and its subordinate fom abusing its citizens within its national boundary, it is unreasonable to expect those abuse can be countered with purely peaceful means.
 
anrec80
Posts: 2110
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: China Eastern sets up Air 123 to exclusively fly home-grown Chinese jets including ARJ21, C919

Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:12 pm

c933103 wrote:
Just because you ignored explanations provided by those documents doesn't mean they don't exists


There aren’t any documents required to impose sanctions. They are being imposed just because someone wants to. Or maybe because someone can.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 21434
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: China Eastern sets up Air 123 to exclusively fly home-grown Chinese jets including ARJ21, C919

Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:07 pm

The concerns about Hauwei originate from outside the USA:

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n ... chief-says

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-47732139

Some companies I've worked with had similar concerns going back to the late 2000s.

It's pretty much well known in the telecom industry that Hauwei is a bad actor.

It's also pretty much well known that the US and its CIA are also bad actors, the Snowden documents makes this clear.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
sincx
Posts: 83
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2016 5:01 pm

Re: China Eastern sets up Air 123 to exclusively fly home-grown Chinese jets including ARJ21, C919

Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:00 am

Revelation wrote:
I think I see a problem with that:

Image


If a foreign supplier's government routinely cuts off trade, it's better to be 50% reliant on those foreign suppliers than 100% reliant.

ZTE folded quickly because they were wholly reliant on Qualcomm for ZTE phones' CPUs. Huawei is doing better because they have their own in-house CPU design division. The sanctions are still terrible for Huawei, of course, but since Huawei uses fewer US-sourced components, it's relatively easier for them find alternatives and survive.

If COMAC and/or the Chinese airlines get put on the Entities List, the biggest issue in terms of finding non-US replacement parts would be the engines. The second biggest issue would be the avionics. Being forced to replace CFM, Eaton, and Honeywell with China-domestic or Russian parts would not be impossible (COMAC should start praying that the WS-20/CJ-1000A will be done sooner rather than later), but will certainly result in a worse aircraft.

Still, from the point of view of Chinese airlines, it's probably preferable to have a mediocre airplane than no airplane at all.

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