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enilria
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Social Credit Score Impact on Chinese Air Transportation

Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:08 pm

I saw commentators on TV yesterday saying the number of people banned from air travel in China by their Social Credit Score has increased so far in 2019 by a factor of more than 3-6x just since 2018. If true that would mean now nearly 50-100m banned tickets per year. At what point does this derail the grand plan to expand Chinese aviation?

China has blocked millions of “discredited” travellers from buying plane or train tickets as part of the country’s controversial “social credit” system aimed at improving the behaviour of citizens.

According to the National Public Credit Information Centre, Chinese courts banned would-be travellers from buying flights 17.5 million times by the end of 2018.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... dit-system
 
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RetiredNWA
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Re: Social Credit Score Impact on Chinese Air Transportation

Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:02 am

Nothing has ever derailed the Chinese civilization.

Attempting to rationalize the behaviors and procedures of a communist oligarchy is a futile device.
 
c933103
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Re: Social Credit Score Impact on Chinese Air Transportation

Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:58 am

Note that other state authority other than the court itself are also capable of listing someone into the black list that could ban them from buying plane and/or bus, train tickets. So the number of passengers being banned is likely more than that.
When no other countries around the world is going to militarily stop China and its subordinate fom abusing its citizens within its national boundary, it is unreasonable to expect those abuse can be countered with purely peaceful means.
 
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enilria
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Re: Social Credit Score Impact on Chinese Air Transportation

Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:13 am

This also affects foreign carriers. There are so many ways to abuse this. For example, penalty for buying a foreign product.
 
c933103
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Re: Social Credit Score Impact on Chinese Air Transportation

Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:42 pm

enilria wrote:
This also affects foreign carriers. There are so many ways to abuse this. For example, penalty for buying a foreign product.

My understanding is that, other than ethnic minority in Xinjiang, the social credit score is usually only implemented as a form of black list + white list, with some locality trying forms of score system to award positive behavior of their citizens. The actual social credit score based on social behavior is either not implemented yet or not visible to the public yet. Those online credit scores published by Chinese companies so far still appears to be mostly financial based for now instead of based on social activity.
When no other countries around the world is going to militarily stop China and its subordinate fom abusing its citizens within its national boundary, it is unreasonable to expect those abuse can be countered with purely peaceful means.
 
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Re: Social Credit Score Impact on Chinese Air Transportation

Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:02 pm

RetiredNWA wrote:
Nothing has ever derailed the Chinese civilization.

Attempting to rationalize the behaviors and procedures of a communist oligarchy is a futile device.


This technology didn't exist before. Aside from the craziness in the DDR where everyone was watching everyone, there has never been a "civilization" where freedom was so limited, by law on one side, and by spying on the people on the other.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Speedalive
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Re: Social Credit Score Impact on Chinese Air Transportation

Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:06 pm

Somebody high up in the Chinese government must’ve watched too much Black Mirror.
 
CHRISBA35X
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Re: Social Credit Score Impact on Chinese Air Transportation

Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:12 pm

I have to say I think its a great idea and frankly, we should look at something like this in the UK - although the snowflakes and bleeding heart liberals will cry all the way to the ECHR about it.

We (the Brits) are in a few cases a shockingly poorly behaved race of people abroad on occasion and more so at home. I'd like to see travel bans imposed on scumbags who act up on flights, etc. I also think it is a nice deterrent to poor behaviour at home. Great idea if you ask me.

Will it impact the Chinese airlines? No. The burgeoning middle class they never had 20 years ago has a voracious appetite for gaudy designer gear in western boutiques and are flying in ever increasing numbers. This might put a little dent in the growth numbers but they'll still be growth numbers.

Now, if they started assigning demerits to one's citizen credit score for being obnoxiously loud and shouting all the time, clearing the back of your throat and spitting in public etc then there might be an issue... hahahaha (joke)
 
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Re: Social Credit Score Impact on Chinese Air Transportation

Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:37 pm

RetiredNWA wrote:
Attempting to rationalize the behaviors and procedures of a communist oligarchy is a futile device.

You can say the same for unbridled capitalism masking itself as democracy (ref: USSC deciding corporations are people, etc.).

CHRISBA35X wrote:
I have to say I think its a great idea and frankly, we should look at something like this in the UK - although the snowflakes and bleeding heart liberals will cry all the way to the ECHR about it.

We (the Brits) are in a few cases a shockingly poorly behaved race of people abroad on occasion and more so at home. I'd like to see travel bans imposed on scumbags who act up on flights, etc. I also think it is a nice deterrent to poor behaviour at home. Great idea if you ask me.

Will it impact the Chinese airlines? No. The burgeoning middle class they never had 20 years ago has a voracious appetite for gaudy designer gear in western boutiques and are flying in ever increasing numbers. This might put a little dent in the growth numbers but they'll still be growth numbers.

Now, if they started assigning demerits to one's citizen credit score for being obnoxiously loud and shouting all the time, clearing the back of your throat and spitting in public etc then there might be an issue... hahahaha (joke)

The US is trying something similar with its "no fly list" and I wouldn't say the results were all that great.
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Re: Social Credit Score Impact on Chinese Air Transportation

Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:37 pm

CHRISBA35X wrote:
I have to say I think its a great idea and frankly, we should look at something like this in the UK - although the snowflakes and bleeding heart liberals will cry all the way to the ECHR about it.

We (the Brits) are in a few cases a shockingly poorly behaved race of people abroad on occasion and more so at home. I'd like to see travel bans imposed on scumbags who act up on flights, etc. I also think it is a nice deterrent to poor behaviour at home. Great idea if you ask me.

Will it impact the Chinese airlines? No. The burgeoning middle class they never had 20 years ago has a voracious appetite for gaudy designer gear in western boutiques and are flying in ever increasing numbers. This might put a little dent in the growth numbers but they'll still be growth numbers.

Now, if they started assigning demerits to one's citizen credit score for being obnoxiously loud and shouting all the time, clearing the back of your throat and spitting in public etc then there might be an issue... hahahaha (joke)

Having lived in the UK, I have the opposite view you do.

If you act up on a plane in the UK, you get removed from the flight, possibly banned, and possibly charged for the costs incurred. How is that not sufficient? If you are obnoxiously loud in public you get a noise complaint and/or potentially some sort of ticket for leud behaviour.

No amount of 'social function' is worth what the PRC puts its citizens through. And besides, the UK is still considerably more functional than China is.

Regarding this topic, I suspect that the vast majority of banned individuals were also probably too poor to take the plane, so I doubt this would have a huge impact. I'm guessing this based on basically every other country's criminological pattern.
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Re: Social Credit Score Impact on Chinese Air Transportation

Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:43 pm

c933103 wrote:
enilria wrote:
This also affects foreign carriers. There are so many ways to abuse this. For example, penalty for buying a foreign product.

My understanding is that, other than ethnic minority in Xinjiang, the social credit score is usually only implemented as a form of black list + white list, with some locality trying forms of score system to award positive behavior of their citizens. The actual social credit score based on social behavior is either not implemented yet or not visible to the public yet. Those online credit scores published by Chinese companies so far still appears to be mostly financial based for now instead of based on social activity.


Apparently, the political motivated use of the system may have spread already outside of Chinese west : https://www.france24.com/en/20190501-fo ... -criticism
 
Elementalism
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Re: Social Credit Score Impact on Chinese Air Transportation

Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:45 pm

Give the technocrats the power to deny the working class ability to move about. And the working class is now in a prison.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Social Credit Score Impact on Chinese Air Transportation

Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:58 pm

Most of the people in China on these list with bad social scores can't afford to travel by plane anyway so likely of limited affect on PRC airlines. I would be concerned that it will be applied to residents of Hong Kong, Taiwan and Macau who as we know are not happy with the growing control of the PRC government over them, so could limit persons in those Special Administrative Territories from travel on PRC or even non-PRC airlines based in HK and Taiwan.
 
Toinou
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Re: Social Credit Score Impact on Chinese Air Transportation

Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:05 pm

For travels in PRC, it would be easier for authorities to use the "mainland Travel Permit" that is already needed. If the could apply the travel ban to journeys starting in HK, it would mean a rather important control on HK people, but the reaction would be huge.
 
oceanvikram
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Re: Social Credit Score Impact on Chinese Air Transportation

Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:37 pm

CHRISBA35X wrote:
I have to say I think its a great idea and frankly, we should look at something like this in the UK - although the snowflakes and bleeding heart liberals will cry all the way to the ECHR about it.

We (the Brits) are in a few cases a shockingly poorly behaved race of people abroad on occasion and more so at home. I'd like to see travel bans imposed on scumbags who act up on flights, etc. I also think it is a nice deterrent to poor behaviour at home. Great idea if you ask me.

Will it impact the Chinese airlines? No. The burgeoning middle class they never had 20 years ago has a voracious appetite for gaudy designer gear in western boutiques and are flying in ever increasing numbers. This might put a little dent in the growth numbers but they'll still be growth numbers.

Now, if they started assigning demerits to one's citizen credit score for being obnoxiously loud and shouting all the time, clearing the back of your throat and spitting in public etc then there might be an issue... hahahaha (joke)


I have lived in China and what you are describing is true to an extent. Having said that I would love to see a Social Credit System rolled out in every country and use Japan as the bench mark.

In the developing countries a person who has recently acquired middle class status, thinks they have made it and do not require to learn the “middle class social norms”. While the one who is already in the middle class thinks he/she is entitled to behave in an obnoxious way. India is a perfect example of this and according to my wife there are now Indian comedians who are making jokes about it.

Now in the west, I fear that entitlement is rife. As an example, Perth being my hometown, the Perth - Bali flights are known as the “bogan express”, bogan being an Australian term for what Americans use as “wh!*# [email protected]$*”. Yes, some have tattoo sleeves, not many have mullets, some wearing singlets and board shorts. There are multiple flights in the late morning and some of the passengers are already drinking. And if I am flying business class (company paid of course), then at the lounge, some of the “elites” are behaving in a pretentious and sanctimonious ways.
My comments are based as an aviation enthusiast first, then as a passenger who paid for his own ticket, after that a passenger on a business trip and finally an armchair CEO.
 
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Re: Social Credit Score Impact on Chinese Air Transportation

Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:47 pm

oceanvikram wrote:
I have lived in China and what you are describing is true to an extent. Having said that I would love to see a Social Credit System rolled out in every country and use Japan as the bench mark.


So the government gets to tell companies who they can and can't do business with? No, thank you. Too much potential for abuse, which for the Junta in Beijing is the obvious reason to have that system in the first place. Suddenly you can claim "acted unsocial" instead of "searched for Tiananmen massaker".

Airlines abiding by those lists should be denied landing and overflight. To enforce social norms of course, not to punish them....

Best regards
Thomas
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Re: Social Credit Score Impact on Chinese Air Transportation

Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:58 pm

This stuff, Xianjiang or Hong Kong led me to think that China thinks a major economic downturn might arrive soon to their economy so they want to keep people extremely controlled.

Most people is usually OK in dictatorships if there is economic growth and a reasonable standard of living. Once there is an economic crisis, everything blows up.
 
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Re: Social Credit Score Impact on Chinese Air Transportation

Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:13 pm

How many are prohibited? Eventually this will impact growth. Consolidation of power does more, look at the corruption index from transparency international.

But China will grow. We are debating the impact on the rate of growth.
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Re: Social Credit Score Impact on Chinese Air Transportation

Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:49 pm

c933103 wrote:
enilria wrote:
This also affects foreign carriers. There are so many ways to abuse this. For example, penalty for buying a foreign product.

My understanding is that, other than ethnic minority in Xinjiang, the social credit score is usually only implemented as a form of black list + white list, with some locality trying forms of score system to award positive behavior of their citizens. The actual social credit score based on social behavior is either not implemented yet or not visible to the public yet. Those online credit scores published by Chinese companies so far still appears to be mostly financial based for now instead of based on social activity.

If it is true that it is mostly a credit score, virtually all the media reporting is wrong. I have little trust of the media, so that is certainly possible, but you would need to back this up with some facts.
 
ethernal
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Re: Social Credit Score Impact on Chinese Air Transportation

Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:49 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
oceanvikram wrote:
I have lived in China and what you are describing is true to an extent. Having said that I would love to see a Social Credit System rolled out in every country and use Japan as the bench mark.


So the government gets to tell companies who they can and can't do business with? No, thank you. Too much potential for abuse, which for the Junta in Beijing is the obvious reason to have that system in the first place. Suddenly you can claim "acted unsocial" instead of "searched for Tiananmen massaker".

Airlines abiding by those lists should be denied landing and overflight. To enforce social norms of course, not to punish them....

Best regards
Thomas


While operating at a smaller scale, you do realize this is exactly what the US no-fly list is, right? There are many US citizens on that list that have committed no crime but are not able to fly because of an arbitrary risk score calculated by the DHS.

Note that I do not support either system, but this is a pot, kettle, black situation. If we accept the no fly list in the US, then you would logically accept the social credit system in China. The only difference is where we snap the line on the score.
 
Elementalism
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Re: Social Credit Score Impact on Chinese Air Transportation

Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:22 pm

ltbewr wrote:
Most of the people in China on these list with bad social scores can't afford to travel by plane anyway so likely of limited affect on PRC airlines. I would be concerned that it will be applied to residents of Hong Kong, Taiwan and Macau who as we know are not happy with the growing control of the PRC government over them, so could limit persons in those Special Administrative Territories from travel on PRC or even non-PRC airlines based in HK and Taiwan.


That is a generalization and irrelevant to the issue of allowing a govt to ban millions of people from traveling because of their opinions.
 
c933103
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Re: Social Credit Score Impact on Chinese Air Transportation

Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:35 pm

enilria wrote:
c933103 wrote:
enilria wrote:
This also affects foreign carriers. There are so many ways to abuse this. For example, penalty for buying a foreign product.

My understanding is that, other than ethnic minority in Xinjiang, the social credit score is usually only implemented as a form of black list + white list, with some locality trying forms of score system to award positive behavior of their citizens. The actual social credit score based on social behavior is either not implemented yet or not visible to the public yet. Those online credit scores published by Chinese companies so far still appears to be mostly financial based for now instead of based on social activity.

If it is true that it is mostly a credit score, virtually all the media reporting is wrong. I have little trust of the media, so that is certainly possible, but you would need to back this up with some facts.

I have read many of those media post about social credit scores, many of them aren't outright wrong but you have to pay extra attention on the way they are writing those articles.
Sesame credit, being one of the most popular service of its kind on Chinese internet, is often used as an example. You can read about the way it work, the way it come up with its score, and the way it can be used at: https://www.whatsonweibo.com/insights-i ... ame-score/ . It do have a broader reach than traditional credit score by integrating details like users' app usage frequencies into the app and offer tangible discount or other promotion at different scenario that you won't see in the traditional kind of financial credit score in the west, but yes it is still something focused on analyzing the financial score and their financial credibility.
But then, they are indeed linked to the "social credit score" system, just not in the way that most headlines try to claim. Some western media have also explained on it, not just the difference but also how the west get such misconception: https://www.wired.com/story/china-socia ... re-system/ . Back then, Chinese government was running a pilot program, trying to select a system offered by various companies and make them become the social credit score system for the entire country. What caused the confusion is that the company developed Sesame credit was one of the entity enrolled into the program, together with Tencent's counterpart, and a few other companies. Fortunately, it doesn't seems like anything material have been developed from that pilot program, or even if they have gained some results they still haven't implemented it yet. Which is also reasonable given the original news from back in 2015 said the planned implementation date was something like year 2020. And indeed there are a number of small scale trials at different cities and area serving different purposes, and then there are already that nation-wide black-list and red-list based on a n umber of good behavior or violation.
When no other countries around the world is going to militarily stop China and its subordinate fom abusing its citizens within its national boundary, it is unreasonable to expect those abuse can be countered with purely peaceful means.
 
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Re: Social Credit Score Impact on Chinese Air Transportation

Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:03 pm

ethernal wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
oceanvikram wrote:
I have lived in China and what you are describing is true to an extent. Having said that I would love to see a Social Credit System rolled out in every country and use Japan as the bench mark.


So the government gets to tell companies who they can and can't do business with? No, thank you. Too much potential for abuse, which for the Junta in Beijing is the obvious reason to have that system in the first place. Suddenly you can claim "acted unsocial" instead of "searched for Tiananmen massaker".

Airlines abiding by those lists should be denied landing and overflight. To enforce social norms of course, not to punish them....

Best regards
Thomas


While operating at a smaller scale, you do realize this is exactly what the US no-fly list is, right? There are many US citizens on that list that have committed no crime but are not able to fly because of an arbitrary risk score calculated by the DHS.

Note that I do not support either system, but this is a pot, kettle, black situation. If we accept the no fly list in the US, then you would logically accept the social credit system in China. The only difference is where we snap the line on the score.



Except the US list differs in several ways...one it is just several thousand people not tens of millions, two there are ways to try and petition to get off the list and get redress, three it still allows people to travel via motorcar, boat, train, and bus
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c933103
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Re: Social Credit Score Impact on Chinese Air Transportation

Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:41 pm

enilria wrote:
I saw commentators on TV yesterday saying the number of people banned from air travel in China by their Social Credit Score has increased so far in 2019 by a factor of more than 3-6x just since 2018. If true that would mean now nearly 50-100m banned tickets per year. At what point does this derail the grand plan to expand Chinese aviation?

China has blocked millions of “discredited” travellers from buying plane or train tickets as part of the country’s controversial “social credit” system aimed at improving the behaviour of citizens.

According to the National Public Credit Information Centre, Chinese courts banned would-be travellers from buying flights 17.5 million times by the end of 2018.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... dit-system

p.s.I am pretty sure the "17.5 million times by the end of 2018" figure was the total number of all individuals given such punishment by court until year 2018 ever since the program's inception, not just the year 2018 itself.
When no other countries around the world is going to militarily stop China and its subordinate fom abusing its citizens within its national boundary, it is unreasonable to expect those abuse can be countered with purely peaceful means.
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: Social Credit Score Impact on Chinese Air Transportation

Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:01 pm

They should start a new airline just for the "uncivilised" people. Perhaps Ryanair could give them training or they could spend a night out in Newcastle.
 
Ziyulu
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Re: Social Credit Score Impact on Chinese Air Transportation

Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:42 pm

No different than TSA's no fly list.
 
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enilria
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Re: Social Credit Score Impact on Chinese Air Transportation

Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:50 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
No different than TSA's no fly list.

https://www.wired.com/story/china-socia ... re-system/
"Over 13 million people were on the list as of March"
That's pretty different. The TSA list is fairly tiny.
c933103 wrote:
enilria wrote:
I saw commentators on TV yesterday saying the number of people banned from air travel in China by their Social Credit Score has increased so far in 2019 by a factor of more than 3-6x just since 2018. If true that would mean now nearly 50-100m banned tickets per year. At what point does this derail the grand plan to expand Chinese aviation?

China has blocked millions of “discredited” travellers from buying plane or train tickets as part of the country’s controversial “social credit” system aimed at improving the behaviour of citizens.

According to the National Public Credit Information Centre, Chinese courts banned would-be travellers from buying flights 17.5 million times by the end of 2018.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... dit-system

p.s.I am pretty sure the "17.5 million times by the end of 2018" figure was the total number of all individuals given such punishment by court until year 2018 ever since the program's inception, not just the year 2018 itself.

"Over 13 million people were on the list as of March"
That would be only 1.5 ticket purchase attempts per person. Quite possible.
 
Ziyulu
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Re: Social Credit Score Impact on Chinese Air Transportation

Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:33 pm

enilria wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
No different than TSA's no fly list.

https://www.wired.com/story/china-socia ... re-system/
"Over 13 million people were on the list as of March"
That's pretty different. The TSA list is fairly tiny.
c933103 wrote:
enilria wrote:
I saw commentators on TV yesterday saying the number of people banned from air travel in China by their Social Credit Score has increased so far in 2019 by a factor of more than 3-6x just since 2018. If true that would mean now nearly 50-100m banned tickets per year. At what point does this derail the grand plan to expand Chinese aviation?

China has blocked millions of “discredited” travellers from buying plane or train tickets as part of the country’s controversial “social credit” system aimed at improving the behaviour of citizens.

According to the National Public Credit Information Centre, Chinese courts banned would-be travellers from buying flights 17.5 million times by the end of 2018.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... dit-system

p.s.I am pretty sure the "17.5 million times by the end of 2018" figure was the total number of all individuals given such punishment by court until year 2018 ever since the program's inception, not just the year 2018 itself.

"Over 13 million people were on the list as of March"
That would be only 1.5 ticket purchase attempts per person. Quite possible.


How many users are on the TSA no-fly list?
 
c933103
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Re: Social Credit Score Impact on Chinese Air Transportation

Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:09 pm

peterinlisbon wrote:
They should start a new airline just for the "uncivilised" people. Perhaps Ryanair could give them training or they could spend a night out in Newcastle.

Actually, it seems like other than uncivilized behavior, the list also serve as the Chinese alternative to bankruptcy. In China, there are no law that could allow an individual to go bankrupt, so when a debtor want to the court and try to collect debt repayment from someone which have either disappeared or have no ability to repay their debt, then they will also be put onto the black list, where they will be banned from taking trains, planes, buying property, travelling aboard, sending children to private schools... and all that, until the person in question able to repay all the debt he need to repay.
When no other countries around the world is going to militarily stop China and its subordinate fom abusing its citizens within its national boundary, it is unreasonable to expect those abuse can be countered with purely peaceful means.
 
mham001
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Re: Social Credit Score Impact on Chinese Air Transportation

Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:11 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
No different than TSA's no fly list.


Hugely different.

TSA reason for limiting flights - Might blow up the plane. China's reason for limiting travel - Rude.

I have to admit I have mixed feeling on that.
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: Social Credit Score Impact on Chinese Air Transportation

Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:23 pm

mham001 wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
No different than TSA's no fly list.


Hugely different.

TSA reason for limiting flights - Might blow up the plane. China's reason for limiting travel - Rude.

I have to admit I have mixed feeling on that.


It can also be political in China. Anyone can be put on the naughty list so you have to be extra careful what you do or say. Protesting or objecting when they demolish your house to build another ghost city means you're banned from traveling for the rest of your life.
 
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Erebus
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Re: Social Credit Score Impact on Chinese Air Transportation

Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:37 pm

enilria wrote:
"Over 13 million people were on the list as of March"
That would be only 1.5 ticket purchase attempts per person. Quite possible.


That's close to 1% of the population! Or 1 in 100 people...
 
Ziyulu
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Re: Social Credit Score Impact on Chinese Air Transportation

Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:58 pm

mham001 wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
No different than TSA's no fly list.


Hugely different.

TSA reason for limiting flights - Might blow up the plane. China's reason for limiting travel - Rude.

I have to admit I have mixed feeling on that.


Rude people might be hard to control in flight, so banning them sounds fair. Don't forget AC banned two passengers just recently for being rude.
 
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RetiredNWA
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Re: Social Credit Score Impact on Chinese Air Transportation

Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:02 pm

All of the reasoning here is specious.
 
ethernal
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Re: Social Credit Score Impact on Chinese Air Transportation

Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:03 pm

mham001 wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
No different than TSA's no fly list.


Hugely different.

TSA reason for limiting flights - Might blow up the plane. China's reason for limiting travel - Rude.

I have to admit I have mixed feeling on that.


There is zero difference. People who have committed no crime are being denied a fundamental right (freedom to associate / contract). China's program is of greater scale, sure, but that doesn't make the US's version any more right.
 
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ztarizona
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Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:59 am

Re: Social Credit Score Impact on Chinese Air Transportation

Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:09 pm

mham001 wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
No different than TSA's no fly list.


Hugely different.

TSA reason for limiting flights - Might blow up the plane. China's reason for limiting travel - Rude.

I have to admit I have mixed feeling on that.


Unrelated to the social credit score but re: the no fly list
Ironically, in the United States, this does not send an electronic flag to the national firearm background check system, so that person is still legally able to buy an AK-47 and shoot up an elementary school because "liberties!" So the same risk you pose to an aircraft doesn't count for any type of risk to buy weapons of mass murder. You can also be flagged as ineligible to buy Sudafed, or only allowed to buy at max 1 or 2 packages over the counter to produce methamphetamine, and somehow that is not an intrusion on your "liberty". Our lovely president also removed (at the NRAs request) a rule that required our HHS department to send a flag to that firearm background check system for people with Medicare claims that indicated they were seriously mentally ill. Again, it's legal to be seriously mentally ill and own a firearm and people wonder why we keep having mass shootings. Of course this is never discussed, because our moronic public can only comprehend 5-8 word sentences a la twitter.

As an American, I have to say, it feels like we live in a hypocritical joke of a country sometimes, moreso now than in the past.
“The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.” ― Issac Asimov
 
tommy1808
Posts: 10865
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Social Credit Score Impact on Chinese Air Transportation

Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:00 am

FlyingSicilian wrote:
ethernal wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

So the government gets to tell companies who they can and can't do business with? No, thank you. Too much potential for abuse, which for the Junta in Beijing is the obvious reason to have that system in the first place. Suddenly you can claim "acted unsocial" instead of "searched for Tiananmen massaker".

Airlines abiding by those lists should be denied landing and overflight. To enforce social norms of course, not to punish them....

Best regards
Thomas


While operating at a smaller scale, you do realize this is exactly what the US no-fly list is, right? There are many US citizens on that list that have committed no crime but are not able to fly because of an arbitrary risk score calculated by the DHS.

Note that I do not support either system, but this is a pot, kettle, black situation. If we accept the no fly list in the US, then you would logically accept the social credit system in China. The only difference is where we snap the line on the score.



Except the US list differs in several ways...one it is just several thousand people not tens of millions, two there are ways to try and petition to get off the list and get redress, three it still allows people to travel via motorcar, boat, train, and bus


it also doesn´t get in the way of you or your children getting into universities or such.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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enilria
Topic Author
Posts: 9615
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Re: Social Credit Score Impact on Chinese Air Transportation

Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:54 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
enilria wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
No different than TSA's no fly list.

https://www.wired.com/story/china-socia ... re-system/
"Over 13 million people were on the list as of March"
That's pretty different. The TSA list is fairly tiny.
c933103 wrote:
p.s.I am pretty sure the "17.5 million times by the end of 2018" figure was the total number of all individuals given such punishment by court until year 2018 ever since the program's inception, not just the year 2018 itself.

"Over 13 million people were on the list as of March"
That would be only 1.5 ticket purchase attempts per person. Quite possible.


How many users are on the TSA no-fly list?

Wikipedia says 47,000 people on the TSA no-fly list.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Fly_List#cite_note-1

That's 3% of the Chinese list.
 
Ziyulu
Posts: 631
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:35 am

Re: Social Credit Score Impact on Chinese Air Transportation

Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:10 pm

That just means China takes aviation safety more seriously than the US.
 
c933103
Posts: 3822
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Social Credit Score Impact on Chinese Air Transportation

Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:52 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
That just means China takes aviation safety more seriously than the US.

Most of those people who're being placed into the black list by court instead of CAAC are not because of aviation safety problem, according to my understanding.
When no other countries around the world is going to militarily stop China and its subordinate fom abusing its citizens within its national boundary, it is unreasonable to expect those abuse can be countered with purely peaceful means.
 
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tjwgrr
Posts: 2425
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2000 4:09 am

Re: Social Credit Score Impact on Chinese Air Transportation

Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:43 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
That just means China takes aviation safety more seriously than the US.


Did you read the article? How does banning people with these "social credit offences" affect aviation safety?

"Social credit offences range from not paying individual taxes or fines to spreading false information and taking drugs. More minor violations include using expired tickets, smoking on a train or not walking a dog on a leash."
Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
 
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Blimpie
Posts: 302
Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2014 3:48 pm

Re: Social Credit Score Impact on Chinese Air Transportation

Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:00 pm

oceanvikram wrote:
CHRISBA35X wrote:
I have to say I think its a great idea and frankly, we should look at something like this in the UK - although the snowflakes and bleeding heart liberals will cry all the way to the ECHR about it.

We (the Brits) are in a few cases a shockingly poorly behaved race of people abroad on occasion and more so at home. I'd like to see travel bans imposed on scumbags who act up on flights, etc. I also think it is a nice deterrent to poor behaviour at home. Great idea if you ask me.

Will it impact the Chinese airlines? No. The burgeoning middle class they never had 20 years ago has a voracious appetite for gaudy designer gear in western boutiques and are flying in ever increasing numbers. This might put a little dent in the growth numbers but they'll still be growth numbers.

Now, if they started assigning demerits to one's citizen credit score for being obnoxiously loud and shouting all the time, clearing the back of your throat and spitting in public etc then there might be an issue... hahahaha (joke)


I have lived in China and what you are describing is true to an extent. Having said that I would love to see a Social Credit System rolled out in every country and use Japan as the bench mark.


Except that the proposed version in Japan is implemented by social media company Line, and not the Japanese government; involuntary, and in all likelihood is going to fail because us Japanese, have little trust in social media organizations to begin with..
Now get the hell off of my lawn your dang kids!
 
c933103
Posts: 3822
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Social Credit Score Impact on Chinese Air Transportation

Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:39 pm

Blimpie wrote:
oceanvikram wrote:
CHRISBA35X wrote:
I have to say I think its a great idea and frankly, we should look at something like this in the UK - although the snowflakes and bleeding heart liberals will cry all the way to the ECHR about it.

We (the Brits) are in a few cases a shockingly poorly behaved race of people abroad on occasion and more so at home. I'd like to see travel bans imposed on scumbags who act up on flights, etc. I also think it is a nice deterrent to poor behaviour at home. Great idea if you ask me.

Will it impact the Chinese airlines? No. The burgeoning middle class they never had 20 years ago has a voracious appetite for gaudy designer gear in western boutiques and are flying in ever increasing numbers. This might put a little dent in the growth numbers but they'll still be growth numbers.

Now, if they started assigning demerits to one's citizen credit score for being obnoxiously loud and shouting all the time, clearing the back of your throat and spitting in public etc then there might be an issue... hahahaha (joke)


I have lived in China and what you are describing is true to an extent. Having said that I would love to see a Social Credit System rolled out in every country and use Japan as the bench mark.


Except that the proposed version in Japan is implemented by social media company Line, and not the Japanese government; involuntary, and in all likelihood is going to fail because us Japanese, have little trust in social media organizations to begin with..

He's talking about "using Japan as benchmark", as in deduct mark for all behavior that aren't up to the Japanese civility standard and apply thag standard to everyone around the world.
When no other countries around the world is going to militarily stop China and its subordinate fom abusing its citizens within its national boundary, it is unreasonable to expect those abuse can be countered with purely peaceful means.
 
Ziyulu
Posts: 631
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:35 am

Re: Social Credit Score Impact on Chinese Air Transportation

Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:10 pm

tjwgrr wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
That just means China takes aviation safety more seriously than the US.


Did you read the article? How does banning people with these "social credit offences" affect aviation safety?

"Social credit offences range from not paying individual taxes or fines to spreading false information and taking drugs. More minor violations include using expired tickets, smoking on a train or not walking a dog on a leash."


Do you want someone trying to board a plane with an expired boarding pass? Do you want someone smoking on your flight? Do you want a pet that is running loose on your flight?
 
Elementalism
Posts: 460
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:03 am

Re: Social Credit Score Impact on Chinese Air Transportation

Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:19 pm

ztarizona wrote:
mham001 wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
No different than TSA's no fly list.


Hugely different.

TSA reason for limiting flights - Might blow up the plane. China's reason for limiting travel - Rude.

I have to admit I have mixed feeling on that.


Unrelated to the social credit score but re: the no fly list
Ironically, in the United States, this does not send an electronic flag to the national firearm background check system, so that person is still legally able to buy an AK-47 and shoot up an elementary school because "liberties!" So the same risk you pose to an aircraft doesn't count for any type of risk to buy weapons of mass murder. You can also be flagged as ineligible to buy Sudafed, or only allowed to buy at max 1 or 2 packages over the counter to produce methamphetamine, and somehow that is not an intrusion on your "liberty". Our lovely president also removed (at the NRAs request) a rule that required our HHS department to send a flag to that firearm background check system for people with Medicare claims that indicated they were seriously mentally ill. Again, it's legal to be seriously mentally ill and own a firearm and people wonder why we keep having mass shootings. Of course this is never discussed, because our moronic public can only comprehend 5-8 word sentences a la twitter.

As an American, I have to say, it feels like we live in a hypocritical joke of a country sometimes, moreso now than in the past.


The No-Fly list is a bunch of crap like that ridiculous law Democrats had a sit in for a few years ago to ban a constitutional right on the same list.
 
Elementalism
Posts: 460
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:03 am

Re: Social Credit Score Impact on Chinese Air Transportation

Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:21 pm

tjwgrr wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
That just means China takes aviation safety more seriously than the US.


Did you read the article? How does banning people with these "social credit offences" affect aviation safety?

"Social credit offences range from not paying individual taxes or fines to spreading false information and taking drugs. More minor violations include using expired tickets, smoking on a train or not walking a dog on a leash."


Cant have those non-leash dog walkers on an airplane. Think of the safety hazard they present!

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