Gulfstream500
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WN ending ATL-BOS

Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:54 am

Effective January 5, 2019, WN will be cancelling the BOS-ATL route. That I know of, this will be at least the third route closing with WN in ATL (DTW, MSP, BOS). Given that there are other routes with plenty more competition, (LAS, LGA, IAD, etc.) and that WN seems to be shuffling their routes in ATL: Which routes go next? Which are next to be upguaged? Will anything be added in the coming years?

https://www.11alive.com/mobile/article/ ... c5de291ddd
Can someone please start a wikipedia list of failed startup airlines? I am interested in seeing just how long it would be...
 
catiii
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Re: WN ending ATL-BOS

Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:00 am

They can’t effectively compete in Boston with the DL/B6 duopoly.

Gulfstream500 wrote:
Which routes go next?


Whichever routes they’re operating that have been in reality bad business decisions but with which they’ll blame the MAX grounding as an excuse to get out of...
 
WeatherPilot
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Re: WN ending ATL-BOS

Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:14 am

Gulfstream500 wrote:
Will anything be added in the coming years?


Syracuse I hope.
 
jplatts
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Re: WN ending ATL-BOS

Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:22 am

Gulfstream500 wrote:
Effective January 5, 2019, WN will be cancelling the BOS-ATL route. That I know of, this will be at least the third route closing with WN in ATL (DTW, MSP, BOS). Given that there are other routes with plenty more competition, (LAS, LGA, IAD, etc.) and that WN seems to be shuffling their routes in ATL: Which routes go next?


While WN still has 5 daily nonstops to LGA from ATL, I could see WN reducing frequencies on ATL-LGA nonstop service since (a) WN has already dropped ATL-DTW/MSP/SEA nonstop service, (b) WN will be reducing ATL-LAX from 3 daily nonstops to 2 daily nonstops in January 2020, and (c) WN will be dropping ATL-BOS nonstop service in January 2020.

WN will probably still have daily nonstop service to LGA from ATL if WN cuts back on ATL-LGA nonstop service, and WN is unlikely to completely drop ATL-LGA nonstop service anytime soon.
 
jplatts
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Re: WN ending ATL-BOS

Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:28 am

WeatherPilot wrote:
Syracuse I hope.


If WN did add service to SYR, WN would probably serve BWI and MDW nonstop from SYR.

WN adding SYR-ATL nonstop service is unlikely to happen as WN dropped ATL-BUF and ATL-ROC nonstop service following the WN-FL merger.
 
flyboy7974
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Re: WN ending ATL-BOS

Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:31 am

Gulfstream500 wrote:
Effective January 5, 2019, WN will be cancelling the BOS-ATL route. That I know of, this will be at least the third route closing with WN in ATL (DTW, MSP, BOS). Given that there are other routes with plenty more competition, (LAS, LGA, IAD, etc.) and that WN seems to be shuffling their routes in ATL: Which routes go next? Which are next to be upguaged? Will anything be added in the coming years?

https://www.11alive.com/mobile/article/ ... c5de291ddd


Think 19 other routes were announced as well in a USA Today article and around the aviation news sites. Few in LAX MCO DAL besides the ATL.
 
jplatts
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Re: WN ending ATL-BOS

Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:45 am

Gulfstream500 wrote:
Will anything be added in the coming years?


WN adding ATL-SMF and ATL-SJC nonstop service might happen as SMF and SJC are the two largest WN stations without nonstop service to ATL on WN, even though both of these destinations are already served nonstop from ATL on DL.

Other top non-DL hub destinations in the contiguous U.S. that WN doesn't currently serve nonstop from ATL include BDL, PDX, ORF, CLT, MEM, BUF, GRR, OKC, SDF, and OMA. Many of these destinations previously had nonstop service to ATL on either FL or WN, but WN has never served PDX or OMA nonstop from ATL.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: WN ending ATL-BOS

Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:54 am

Another route handed to DL on a silver platter. I think the WN/FL merger helped Delta more than anyone else. ATL was gutted giving DL free reign to jack the prices up for the locals. AirTran was the only airline to have ever given Delta any meaningful competition.
 
catiii
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Re: WN ending ATL-BOS

Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:40 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Another route handed to DL on a silver platter. I think the WN/FL merger helped Delta more than anyone else. ATL was gutted giving DL free reign to jack the prices up for the locals. AirTran was the only airline to have ever given Delta any meaningful competition.


Seriously. I think that merger exposed the fact that WN really is not equipped to compete head to head with a legacy carrier. They should have been bleeding DL in Atlanta. It’s a ripe market for disruption IF you can get the scale. Instead they turned tail and ran.
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: WN ending ATL-BOS

Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:08 am

The only way to stop the Frequent Flyer dominance in Atlanta is through a second airport, close to the metro. And that will take the Georgia legislature.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: WN ending ATL-BOS

Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:30 am

Gulfstream500 wrote:
Will anything be added in the coming years?


For what it's worth, ATL-BOS is already not operating right now (MAX cuts?). In the OAG thread, ATL appears to see a net YOY gain in January with extra frequencies to a few locations such as PIT.

catiii wrote:
Seriously. I think that merger exposed the fact that WN really is not equipped to compete head to head with a legacy carrier. They should have been bleeding DL in Atlanta. It’s a ripe market for disruption IF you can get the scale. Instead they turned tail and ran.


WN eats up legacies when it has a strong business reason to do so. They unfortunately don't have that in many markets out of ATL. They'll never have the volume to win against DL (FL didn't either, and no airline will unless DL collapses), and they don't have a need to defend their turf (FL did have a reason). WN is not in the business of getting into bloodbaths that frankly don't concern them. Great for DL though. Shedding FL was a huge gain.
 
Jerseyguy
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Re: WN ending ATL-BOS

Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:17 am

FlyingElvii wrote:
The only way to stop the Frequent Flyer dominance in Atlanta is through a second airport, close to the metro. And that will take the Georgia legislature.

With Delta fighting all the way, Its not really a good choice but Delta was fighting the commercialization of Paulding Co Airport. Imagine what they'd do if someone wanted something closer and bigger than just a few Allegiant flights.
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MIflyer12
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Re: WN ending ATL-BOS

Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:49 am

jplatts wrote:
While WN still has 5 daily nonstops to LGA from ATL, I could see WN reducing frequencies on ATL-LGA nonstop service since (a) WN has already dropped ATL-DTW/MSP/SEA nonstop service...


LGA isn't a DL-dominated hub like MSP/DTW (it has about a 40% share at LGA), nor is it a longer haul like SEA-ATL. If - especially after giving up all EWR - WN can't make LGA work it's pitiful.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: WN ending ATL-BOS

Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:52 am

catiii wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Another route handed to DL on a silver platter. I think the WN/FL merger helped Delta more than anyone else. ATL was gutted giving DL free reign to jack the prices up for the locals. AirTran was the only airline to have ever given Delta any meaningful competition.


Seriously. I think that merger exposed the fact that WN really is not equipped to compete head to head with a legacy carrier. They should have been bleeding DL in Atlanta. It’s a ripe market for disruption IF you can get the scale. Instead they turned tail and ran.


AirTran carried a lot of connecting traffic thru ATL but WN may do more O&D. There's also the fact that DL has a good product that is heavily differentiated from WN: assigned seats, F cabins, Comfort+ seats, AVOD, lounges, extensive partnership benefits, the intercontinental network...
 
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Re: WN ending ATL-BOS

Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:05 am

catiii wrote:
Seriously. I think that merger exposed the fact that WN really is not equipped to compete head to head with a legacy carrier.

Exposed something worse than that: that the DOT still reflexively sees WN as an agitating agent in favor of consumers, even in light of what's arguably the most anti-competitive merger we've seen since deregulation.



FlyingElvii wrote:
The only way to stop the Frequent Flyer dominance in Atlanta . . . And that will take the Georgia legislature.

Which they see little benefit in doing.

And why would they? ...what do they get out of shrinking throughput at the world's busiest airport (read that: "enplanement fees") to placate local travelers who mostly are going to fly out of Hartsfield (and thus pay those fees) anyway?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
BNAMealer
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Re: WN ending ATL-BOS

Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:16 am

We also need to remember BNA is slowly becoming their primary SE station. They are much stronger there as they don’t have a legacy to compete with. We’ve already seen DTW, MSP and now BOS cut from ATL and the frequencies moved to BNA, and I expect more will come, particularly when BNA gets more gates.

It wouldn’t surprise me if WN eventually cut ATL down to large stations and Florida. WN just hasn’t been able to find their place in ATL like they did in DEN.
 
EK77WNH
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Re: WN ending ATL-BOS

Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:55 pm

WN has had some good success entering 'big-city' airports (DEN comes to mind, with what they're planning), but BOS is decidedly not one of them. Oh, they won't pull out of Logan. But nor will they really grow. And that's the paradox since they are going to (in my view) occupy more gates there than they really need.
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DL747400
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Re: WN ending ATL-BOS

Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:01 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
..........ATL was gutted giving DL free reign to jack the prices up for the locals. ...........


Oh stop with the drama already.

If anything, airfare pricing in the USA is now at a healthy and sustainable level. After decades of losses, DL and others are now charging sustainable fares which enable them to replace their fleets, repay their debts, reduce their pension deficits and upgrade their technology and products while earning a reasonable profit for their shareholders.
Last edited by DL747400 on Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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jplatts
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Re: WN ending ATL-BOS

Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:02 pm

EK77WNH wrote:
WN has had some good success entering 'big-city' airports (DEN comes to mind, with what they're planning), but BOS is decidedly not one of them. Oh, they won't pull out of Logan. But nor will they really grow. And that's the paradox since they are going to (in my view) occupy more gates there than they really need.


There is clearly enough demand for WN service to BOS as WN carries more passengers in and out of BOS than out of any other airport in the New England region. LGA, BWI, and DCA are also the only airports along the Northeast Corridor that have more demand for WN service than BOS does.
 
jplatts
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Re: WN ending ATL-BOS

Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:12 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
Another route handed to DL on a silver platter. I think the WN/FL merger helped Delta more than anyone else. ATL was gutted giving DL free reign to jack the prices up for the locals. AirTran was the only airline to have ever given Delta any meaningful competition.


I am surprised that WN has kept RIC-ATL nonstop service and hasn't yet added RIC-MDW nonstop service when some other former FL destinations such as BUF, CLT, DAY, FNT, GRR, BDL, MEM, PWM, ROC, SEA, and ICT have lost nonstop service to ATL on WN.

There is likely enough demand for WN to add MDW-RIC nonstop service as RIC has higher PDEW's to Chicago than a few cities that already have nonstop service to both ORD and MDW such as BHM, TUS, and ALB. RIC also carried more passengers in 2018 than BHM, TUS, and ALB did.

RIC is also in a bigger market (by population) than a few cities that already have nonstop service to both ORD and MDW such as ALB, ABQ, OMA, and TUS.

Here is a detailed post explaining the numbers that back up my points regarding WN adding RIC-MDW nonstop service: https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1412069&start=400#p21600201

Even though WN has never served MDW nonstop from RIC, RIC-MDW should have been added by WN 6 years ago. I am unsure why WN made the decision to keep RIC-ATL and not add RIC-MDW nonstop service when there was likely enough demand for WN to add RIC-MDW and when WN added nonstop service to MDW from other former FL cities such as CLT and MEM.
 
tphuang
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Re: WN ending ATL-BOS

Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:13 pm

pretty simple, B6 is a lot more committed here than WN. They were both bleeding money and B6 still is, but BOS is just not a strategically important enough market for WN.
 
AWACSooner
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Re: WN ending ATL-BOS

Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:14 pm

EK77WNH wrote:
WN has had some good success entering 'big-city' airports (DEN comes to mind, with what they're planning), but BOS is decidedly not one of them. Oh, they won't pull out of Logan. But nor will they really grow. And that's the paradox since they are going to (in my view) occupy more gates there than they really need.

It seems to me that WN has had a rough go sustaining huge operations out of several major east coast/non-Florida airports (BWI being a notable exception)...could this be due to the nature of clientele, or the overall massive competition and network structures of the legacies on the east coast vs. the rest of the country?
 
Cubsrule
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Re: WN ending ATL-BOS

Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:27 pm

AWACSooner wrote:
EK77WNH wrote:
WN has had some good success entering 'big-city' airports (DEN comes to mind, with what they're planning), but BOS is decidedly not one of them. Oh, they won't pull out of Logan. But nor will they really grow. And that's the paradox since they are going to (in my view) occupy more gates there than they really need.

It seems to me that WN has had a rough go sustaining huge operations out of several major east coast/non-Florida airports (BWI being a notable exception)...could this be due to the nature of clientele, or the overall massive competition and network structures of the legacies on the east coast vs. the rest of the country?


But by "several," don't you really mean ATL only? WN hasn't really ever been huge anywhere but BWI on the non-Florida east coast. They have shrunk some places but seem to do fine at DCA and LGA, though the slot situation limits their growth.
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AWACSooner
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Re: WN ending ATL-BOS

Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:36 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
AWACSooner wrote:
EK77WNH wrote:
WN has had some good success entering 'big-city' airports (DEN comes to mind, with what they're planning), but BOS is decidedly not one of them. Oh, they won't pull out of Logan. But nor will they really grow. And that's the paradox since they are going to (in my view) occupy more gates there than they really need.

It seems to me that WN has had a rough go sustaining huge operations out of several major east coast/non-Florida airports (BWI being a notable exception)...could this be due to the nature of clientele, or the overall massive competition and network structures of the legacies on the east coast vs. the rest of the country?


But by "several," don't you really mean ATL only? WN hasn't really ever been huge anywhere but BWI on the non-Florida east coast. They have shrunk some places but seem to do fine at DCA and LGA, though the slot situation limits their growth.

Look at their pull-out of EWR...their serious reduction in PHL. Lack of growth across the Mid-Atlantic and New England airports (LGA and BOS being notable exceptions). Hell, they can't even make inroads at CLT, GSP, CHS, and RDU.
 
ThaneC
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Re: WN ending ATL-BOS

Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:40 pm

Southwest seems to be moving a number of routes from ATL to BNA creating many more connection opportunities at BNA. I believe BOS-BNA is now up to 4 nonstop flights per day.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: WN ending ATL-BOS

Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:46 pm

AWACSooner wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
AWACSooner wrote:
It seems to me that WN has had a rough go sustaining huge operations out of several major east coast/non-Florida airports (BWI being a notable exception)...could this be due to the nature of clientele, or the overall massive competition and network structures of the legacies on the east coast vs. the rest of the country?


But by "several," don't you really mean ATL only? WN hasn't really ever been huge anywhere but BWI on the non-Florida east coast. They have shrunk some places but seem to do fine at DCA and LGA, though the slot situation limits their growth.

Look at their pull-out of EWR...their serious reduction in PHL. Lack of growth across the Mid-Atlantic and New England airports (LGA and BOS being notable exceptions). Hell, they can't even make inroads at CLT, GSP, CHS, and RDU.


My point was simply that they weren't ever "huge" at those places. And I'm not sure why we discount Florida when MCO is basically a story of legacy shrinkage and WN growth over the past generation.
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Re: WN ending ATL-BOS

Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:50 pm

WN is short of aircraft. I fully expect marginal routes to be cut.

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EvanWSFO
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Re: WN ending ATL-BOS

Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:54 pm

jplatts wrote:
Gulfstream500 wrote:
Will anything be added in the coming years?


WN adding ATL-SMF and ATL-SJC nonstop service might happen as SMF and SJC are the two largest WN stations without nonstop service to ATL on WN, even though both of these destinations are already served nonstop from ATL on DL.

Other top non-DL hub destinations in the contiguous U.S. that WN doesn't currently serve nonstop from ATL include BDL, PDX, ORF, CLT, MEM, BUF, GRR, OKC, SDF, and OMA. Many of these destinations previously had nonstop service to ATL on either FL or WN, but WN has never served PDX or OMA nonstop from ATL.


I just don't see WN adding in ATL. They are shrinking to fit an O&D market. BNA and STL will continue to grow as connecting cities.
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Re: WN ending ATL-BOS

Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:56 pm

Gulfstream500 wrote:
Effective January 5, 2019, WN will be cancelling the BOS-ATL route. That I know of, this will be at least the third route closing with WN in ATL (DTW, MSP, BOS). Given that there are other routes with plenty more competition, (LAS, LGA, IAD, etc.) and that WN seems to be shuffling their routes in ATL: Which routes go next? Which are next to be upguaged? Will anything be added in the coming years?

https://www.11alive.com/mobile/article/ ... c5de291ddd


Jplatts posted this in the boston thread, relative to WN in Boston:

jplatts wrote:
Update to WN cuts out of BOS starting in January 2020:
BOS-ATL, BOS-MCI, and BOS-MKE permanently discontinued after January 5th
BOS-HOU reduced to Sunday-only, starting on January 5th
BOS-AUS and BOS-DAL reduced to seasonal nonstop service after January 5th
BOS-LGA-JFK | A:319/20/21, 332/3, 346 || B:717, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 787, 772, 744 || MD80, MD90
 
hiflyeras
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Re: WN ending ATL-BOS

Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:35 pm

Mods, suggesting that the thread title be changed as many routes are cancelled, not just ATL-BOS

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/a ... 049341001/

Most surprising to me are all the California routes cancelled, especially the pullback out of Mexico from LAX.
 
DCA-ROCguy
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Re: WN ending ATL-BOS

Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:44 pm

DL747400 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
..........ATL was gutted giving DL free reign to jack the prices up for the locals. ...........


Oh stop with the drama already. If anything, airfare pricing in the USA is now at a healthy and sustainable level. After decades of losses, DL and others are now charging sustainable fares which enable them to replace their fleets, repay their debts, reduce their pension deficits and upgrade their technology and products while earning a reasonable profit for their shareholders.


Airfares in the United States are somewhat too high. We never really got to see if the late 00's setup could work, because the legacies and WN got the Bush and Obama administrations to agree to mergers before we could find out. I very much suspect that it could have, as the situation had stabilized some since the immediate post 9-11 years. Legacies want us to believe that today is "sustainable" and nothing else is. I don't buy that conclusion, because the data aren't there--and can't be there--to support it. 'Basic economy' has cushioned the blow somewhat, to be sure, and that's probably why the political trouble shortly after consolidation died down. But it's not the 00's anymore, for sure.

Once legacies cut their CASM some and WN let theirs creep up during the hedging years, WN needed to get rid of their largest lower-cost competitor--AirTran. Once DOJ let Southwest do that, they became what they are now: a different style of legacy. WN has a great product, to be sure, but one that for whatever reason doesn't seem to have offered enough value in Atlanta to help them really grow strongly against DL.

Jim
Last edited by DCA-ROCguy on Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Cubsrule
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Re: WN ending ATL-BOS

Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:54 pm

DCA-ROCguy wrote:
Once legacies cut their CASM some and WN let theirs creep up during the hedging years, WN needed to get rid of their largest lower-cost competitor--AirTran. Once DOJ let Southwest do that, they became what they are now: a different style of legacy. WN has a great product, to be sure, but one that for whatever reason doesn't seem to have offered enough value in Atlanta to help them really grow strongly against DL.


The reason isn't - or shouldn't be - a big mystery. Network wins every time. It's the same reason that all sorts of carriers have failed at MDW, HOU, and DAL and that DL doesn't do p2p at DEN or AA doesn't do p2p at DTW -- nothing unique to WN.
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jplatts
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Re: WN ending ATL-BOS

Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:20 pm

EvanWSFO wrote:
I just don't see WN adding in ATL. They are shrinking to fit an O&D market. BNA and STL will continue to grow as connecting cities.


There are still a few WN destinations such as GSP, RIC, and PBI that have daily nonstop service to ATL on WN but not to BNA or STL.

ATL is also still currently the only WN destination in the South that has daily nonstop service to RSW on a year-round basis, even though WN will be resuming DAL-RSW seasonal daily nonstop service on November 3rd.

WN also currently only has daily nonstop service to RIC from ATL but not from BNA, STL, MDW, or DEN.

If WN is planning on reducing connections through ATL, I would expect WN to add RSW-HOU, RSW-BNA, RIC-MDW, RIC-BNA, PBI-HOU, and PBI-BNA nonstop service.
 
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Re: WN ending ATL-BOS

Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:46 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Exposed something worse than that: that the DOT still reflexively sees WN as an agitating agent in favor of consumers, even in light of what's arguably the most anti-competitive merger we've seen since deregulation.


I have never priced an itenerary on WN (departing OMA) that was cheaper than a legacy.
 
AWACSooner
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Re: WN ending ATL-BOS

Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:51 pm

DCA-ROCguy wrote:

Airfares in the United States are somewhat too high. We never really got to see if the late 00's setup could work, because the legacies and WN got the Bush and Obama administrations to agree to mergers before we could find out. I very much suspect that it could have, as the situation had stabilized some since the immediate post 9-11 years. Legacies want us to believe that today is "sustainable" and nothing else is. I don't buy that conclusion, because the data aren't there--and can't be there--to support it. 'Basic economy' has cushioned the blow somewhat, to be sure, and that's probably why the political trouble shortly after consolidation died down. But it's not the 00's anymore, for sure.

Once legacies cut their CASM some and WN let theirs creep up during the hedging years, WN needed to get rid of their largest lower-cost competitor--AirTran. Once DOJ let Southwest do that, they became what they are now: a different style of legacy. WN has a great product, to be sure, but one that for whatever reason doesn't seem to have offered enough value in Atlanta to help them really grow strongly against DL.

Jim

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catiii
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Re: WN ending ATL-BOS

Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:52 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
The only way to stop the Frequent Flyer dominance in Atlanta is through a second airport, close to the metro. And that will take the Georgia legislature.


The two options are Gwinnett and Paulding. Gwinnett's County Commissioners haven't wanted to commercialize their airport, even when groups like Propeller (who did the PAE commercialization), made a compelling case to do so. Paulding would make the most sense given the amount of growth going in that direction and the population centers around 75 in Cherokee and Cobb, if you added around 2000' to the runway.
 
catiii
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Re: WN ending ATL-BOS

Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:54 pm

tphuang wrote:
pretty simple, B6 is a lot more committed here than WN. They were both bleeding money and B6 still is, but BOS is just not a strategically important enough market for WN.


B6 is not bleeding money in Boston...quite the contrary.
 
mjzair
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Re: WN ending ATL-BOS

Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:57 pm

catiii wrote:
tphuang wrote:
pretty simple, B6 is a lot more committed here than WN. They were both bleeding money and B6 still is, but BOS is just not a strategically important enough market for WN.


B6 is not bleeding money in Boston...quite the contrary.


It is pretty clear that he was referring to the BOS-ATL market.
 
Gulfstream500
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Re: WN ending ATL-BOS

Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:01 pm

jplatts wrote:
EvanWSFO wrote:
I just don't see WN adding in ATL. They are shrinking to fit an O&D market. BNA and STL will continue to grow as connecting cities.


There are still a few WN destinations such as GSP, RIC, and PBI that have daily nonstop service to ATL on WN but not to BNA or STL.

ATL is also still currently the only WN destination in the South that has daily nonstop service to RSW on a year-round basis, even though WN will be resuming DAL-RSW seasonal daily nonstop service on November 3rd.

WN also currently only has daily nonstop service to RIC from ATL but not from BNA, STL, MDW, or DEN.

If WN is planning on reducing connections through ATL, I would expect WN to add RSW-HOU, RSW-BNA, RIC-MDW, RIC-BNA, PBI-HOU, and PBI-BNA nonstop service.


I don’t really expect WN to make a nonstop between PBI and STL/BNA, given that they already have that via a focus city in FLL. Not to mention, they’ve also got to deal with B6, DL, and AA all being bigger than WN in PBI.

As for GSP, it will be a pure-connecting destination until the nonstop to BWI arrives. Maybe we’ll see other places soon, but I doubt it.

RIC is perhaps the most interesting of the WN destinations. Despite (plenty of) growth opportunities, they still have not made any new daily nonstops. Had FL and WN not merged, we’d probably be seeing MKE, MCO, and ATL to RIC. If WN decides to add a new destination to RIC, expect it to be STL (it is currently the largest east coast metro area without a nonstop to STL, and once was able to support 200+ seats when the American Connection operation was a thing).
Can someone please start a wikipedia list of failed startup airlines? I am interested in seeing just how long it would be...
 
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ElroyJetson
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Re: WN ending ATL-BOS

Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:09 pm

jplatts wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Another route handed to DL on a silver platter. I think the WN/FL merger helped Delta more than anyone else. ATL was gutted giving DL free reign to jack the prices up for the locals. AirTran was the only airline to have ever given Delta any meaningful competition.


I am surprised that WN has kept RIC-ATL nonstop service and hasn't yet added RIC-MDW nonstop service when some other former FL destinations such as BUF, CLT, DAY, FNT, GRR, BDL, MEM, PWM, ROC, SEA, and ICT have lost nonstop service to ATL on WN.

There is likely enough demand for WN to add MDW-RIC nonstop service as RIC has higher PDEW's to Chicago than a few cities that already have nonstop service to both ORD and MDW such as BHM, TUS, and ALB. RIC also carried more passengers in 2018 than BHM, TUS, and ALB did.

RIC is also in a bigger market (by population) than a few cities that already have nonstop service to both ORD and MDW such as ALB, ABQ, OMA, and TUS.

Here is a detailed post explaining the numbers that back up my points regarding WN adding RIC-MDW nonstop service: https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1412069&start=400#p21600201

Even though WN has never served MDW nonstop from RIC, RIC-MDW should have been added by WN 6 years ago. I am unsure why WN made the decision to keep RIC-ATL and not add RIC-MDW nonstop service when there was likely enough demand for WN to add RIC-MDW and when WN added nonstop service to MDW from other former FL cities such as CLT and MEM.



Your analysis is right on the money imho. WN promised RIC-MDW service in the early 2000's. It never happened.

In reality WN really has not expanded much in years due to...as Lightsaber said....a shortage of aircraft. The first shortage was due to stupidly in my opinion getting rid of Air Tran's 717 fleet to DL for a song. That hamstrung WN in terms of expansion and greatly helped their new rival in ATL DL. Dumb move imho.

The current aircraft shortage is obviously due to the 737 Max issues which is beyond WN's control. My hope is once they get there fleet in order they target more growth to secondary cities. That is where the real growth potential lies in my opinion. It is difficult to stand out on a route like BOS-ATL when there are literally 30 flights a day between those city pairs. GSO, RIC, SYR, GSP, CHS, RIC, ORF are a few of the cities where WN could expand and do well. That is if they would only take the risk.
Last edited by ElroyJetson on Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
707 717 727 72S 737 733 737-700 747 757 753 767-300 764 A319 A320 DC-9-10 DC-9-30 DC-9-50, MD-82 MD-88 MD-90 DC-10-10 DC-10-40 F-100
 
iyerhari
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Re: WN ending ATL-BOS

Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:53 pm

tlecam wrote:
jplatts wrote:
Update to WN cuts out of BOS starting in January 2020:
BOS-ATL, BOS-MCI, and BOS-MKE permanently discontinued after January 5th
BOS-HOU reduced to Sunday-only, starting on January 5th
BOS-AUS and BOS-DAL reduced to seasonal nonstop service after January 5th

Any place where DL and B6 fly together, there is a chance that others would drop-off. I just do not know if WN would even need the 5 gates that Massport is building in the B2 side of concourse.
 
Atlwarrior
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Re: WN ending ATL-BOS

Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:58 pm

No problem, since JetBlue have and started 5 daily flights to Boston. This should help JetBlue and Delta yield to Logan.
 
B752OS
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Re: WN ending ATL-BOS

Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:11 pm

EK77WNH wrote:
WN has had some good success entering 'big-city' airports (DEN comes to mind, with what they're planning), but BOS is decidedly not one of them. Oh, they won't pull out of Logan. But nor will they really grow. And that's the paradox since they are going to (in my view) occupy more gates there than they really need.


Denver is one of Southwest's largest hubs and I am going to assume they connect a good amount of traffic through there. Boston is an end station for them so they're two different markets. Denver also has the benefit of having only one viable airport within a 6 hour drive of the city (Southwest doesn't serve Colorado Springs), in Boston you would hit Providence, Manchester, Hartford, ISLIP, LaGuardia, Newark and Portland in that radius. In order to effectively serve the Boston market, they needed to enter it directly. Serving just Manchester and to a much lesser extent Providence, was not going to cut it. They will still have multiple daily non-stop flights to Chicago Midway, Baltimore/Washington, Denver, St. Louis and Nashville from Boston and that will allow easy one-stop connections to almost their entire network.
 
catiii
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Re: WN ending ATL-BOS

Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:21 pm

mjzair wrote:
catiii wrote:
tphuang wrote:
pretty simple, B6 is a lot more committed here than WN. They were both bleeding money and B6 still is, but BOS is just not a strategically important enough market for WN.


B6 is not bleeding money in Boston...quite the contrary.


It is pretty clear that he was referring to the BOS-ATL market.


Except that it wasn’t “pretty clear” in the context of all the other WN Boston cuts.
 
bob75013
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Re: WN ending ATL-BOS

Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:29 pm

lightsaber wrote:
WN is short of aircraft. I fully expect marginal routes to be cut.

Lightsaber



Yup. By EOY probably 70 MAXs plus those 19 leased 700's that will be getting UA paint jobs.
 
tphuang
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Re: WN ending ATL-BOS

Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:34 pm

catiii wrote:
mjzair wrote:
catiii wrote:

B6 is not bleeding money in Boston...quite the contrary.


It is pretty clear that he was referring to the BOS-ATL market.


Except that it wasn’t “pretty clear” in the context of all the other WN Boston cuts.


Given that I have said numerously on this forum that BOS is quite profitable for B6, I'm definitely referring to BOS-ATL here, which as you might know is one of the bloodiest route in their entire network.
 
zuckie13
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Re: WN ending ATL-BOS

Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:47 pm

BN727227Ultra wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Exposed something worse than that: that the DOT still reflexively sees WN as an agitating agent in favor of consumers, even in light of what's arguably the most anti-competitive merger we've seen since deregulation.


I have never priced an itenerary on WN (departing OMA) that was cheaper than a legacy.


Is that a straight non-refundable coach fare comparison or was that a basic economy vs get away fare?
 
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BN727227Ultra
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Re: WN ending ATL-BOS

Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:51 pm

zuckie13 wrote:
BN727227Ultra wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Exposed something worse than that: that the DOT still reflexively sees WN as an agitating agent in favor of consumers, even in light of what's arguably the most anti-competitive merger we've seen since deregulation.


I have never priced an itenerary on WN (departing OMA) that was cheaper than a legacy.


Is that a straight non-refundable coach fare comparison or was that a basic economy vs get away fare?


it's been a while, but IIRC not every segment had Get Away so I believe it was straight coach. This was before the basic economy / economy plus became a price point.
 
n562wn
Posts: 91
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WN ending ATL-BOS

Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:55 pm

lightsaber wrote:
WN is short of aircraft. I fully expect marginal routes to be cut.

Lightsaber


^^^
All the uproar on this thread when It's really this simple.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
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N776AU
Posts: 975
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Re: WN ending ATL-BOS

Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:31 pm

catiii wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
The only way to stop the Frequent Flyer dominance in Atlanta is through a second airport, close to the metro. And that will take the Georgia legislature.


The two options are Gwinnett and Paulding. Gwinnett's County Commissioners haven't wanted to commercialize their airport, even when groups like Propeller (who did the PAE commercialization), made a compelling case to do so. Paulding would make the most sense given the amount of growth going in that direction and the population centers around 75 in Cherokee and Cobb, if you added around 2000' to the runway.

The biggest issue with Gwinnett is that there is no room to grow without rerouting some major highways. I wouldn't imagine that's likely given that they just finished that huge project with the overpasses.

FlyingElvii wrote:
And that will take the Georgia legislature.

Which Delta has bought and paid for. Whatever they want they get.
TTailedTiger wrote:
Another route handed to DL on a silver platter. I think the WN/FL merger helped Delta more than anyone else. ATL was gutted giving DL free reign to jack the prices up for the locals. AirTran was the only airline to have ever given Delta any meaningful competition.

I miss AirTran so much. As soon as Southwest came forward with their plans for the future, you could tell it was going to be of no benefit to the consumer, even though Clark Howard was on the air the day of the merger announcement practically jacking off to the idea of Southwest in Atlanta.

Maybe I shouldn't be so cynical, but I find it hard not to be.
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