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qf789
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Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:40 pm

At today's FY2018/2019 results Qantas has announced they will conduct 3 research flights operating both JFK-SYD and LHR-SYD using 787-9 aircraft. These aircraft will be used as delivery flights of 787-9's Qantas will take delivery of in October, November and December

Each flight will have a maximum of 40 people onboard and the flights will be used to gain data from passenger and crew health and well being. The data will then be shared with CASA to help inform regulatory requirements associated with ULH flights

https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media ... australia/
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ITSTours
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Re: Qantas plans to operate 3 Project Sunrise research flights by end of 2019

Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:46 pm

So this doesn't mean they're going to use 787-9 for the Sunrise; they are going to conduct a PaxEx research.
 
planecane
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Re: Qantas plans to operate 3 Project Sunrise research flights by end of 2019

Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:52 pm

ITSTours wrote:
So this doesn't mean they're going to use 787-9 for the Sunrise; they are going to conduct a PaxEx research.


Unless they can charge a really high premium for tickets, I don't think they can max out at 40 souls on board, including crew.

If the 787-9 was capable of these routes with a decent passenger load they would just specially configure some 787-9s and there wouldn't be an RFP.
 
musman9853
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Re: Qantas plans to operate 3 Project Sunrise research flights by end of 2019 using 787-9

Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:55 pm

so probably only a few test runs, right? because no way you can make money off 40 pax
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ikolkyo
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Re: Qantas plans to operate 3 Project Sunrise research flights by end of 2019 using 787-9 aircraft

Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:56 pm

Some of you need to re-read the title...
 
airnorth
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Re: Qantas plans to operate 3 Project Sunrise research flights by end of 2019 using 787-9 aircraft

Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:57 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
Some of you need to re-read the title...

:bigthumbsup:
And the article.
 
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qf789
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Re: Qantas plans to operate 3 Project Sunrise research flights by end of 2019 using 787-9 aircraft

Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:04 pm

A couple more things

The final Yes or No decision will be made by the end of the year on Project Sunrise
Qantas has both Airbus and Boeing's best and final offers on the table including a compelling offer to deal with any delays on the 777X

Note it is not a forgone conclusion that Project Sunrise will get off the ground, ultimately its a business decision which the economics must stack up

https://www.executivetraveller.com/qant ... om-october
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DeltaB717
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:21 pm

These will be delivery flights for some of the next batch of B789s and are being used, as the first post mentions, to gain a practical understanding of the demands on crew and the passenger experience. Per the article, the 'passengers' will be QF employees.
 
Pyrex
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:54 pm

Does this mean these will be Charleston-built birds? Would make more sense, to minimize empty legs.
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moa999
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:00 am

It's not really an announcement. They did LHR-SYD on a 747 delivery 30 years ago, so it's a piece of cake for the 789
 
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:03 am

Pyrex wrote:
Does this mean these will be Charleston-built birds? Would make more sense, to minimize empty legs.

No all three will be Everett built 787's (LN921, 929 and 941).
 
Ishrion
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:03 am

moa999 wrote:
It's not really an announcement. They did LHR-SYD on a 747 delivery 30 years ago, so it's a piece of cake for the 789


But... this is an announcement? They're announcing that they'll test SYD/JFK-LHR on a 787 before revenue flights begin?
 
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:06 am

Videos from QF media release on the research flights: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/asgtg00n8h4k ... LLria?dl=0
 
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:12 am

Ishrion wrote:
moa999 wrote:
It's not really an announcement. They did LHR-SYD on a 747 delivery 30 years ago, so it's a piece of cake for the 789


But... this is an announcement? They're announcing that they'll test SYD/JFK-LHR on a 787 before revenue flights begin?
No they are doing research on impacts of long haul flight.

The key part is buried later in the release - it's still A350 v 777X (possibly interestingly not 350-1000 v 777-8X)
And a final decision, subject to various approvals, expected by end December 2019 (which is probably a pushback in the decision timeline)
 
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Re: Qantas plans to operate 3 Project Sunrise research flights by end of 2019 using 787-9 aircraft

Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:18 am

airnorth wrote:
And the article.


Exactly please read the article as airnoth suggested.
Qantas estimates flight times of around 19 hours, however during the northern hemisphere winter JFK-SYD nonstop could easily top 20 hours. Qantas needs to conduct research on the effect this type of long haul nonstop travel has on the human body, on the traveler and more importantly on the crew.
 
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:32 am

This brings up a question: Does the B777X pressurize to a 6,000 Ft. cabin, like the 787, or an 8,000 Ft. cabin, like the current 777? The A350 matches the 787 in this important spec, as I recall. The cabin altitude difference would have a significant impact on passenger well being over the course of a 20-hour flight.
Last edited by FLALEFTY on Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
aryonoco
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:38 am

More than anything, this is to gain some hard data re pilot fatigue to share with CASA.

The 744 that flew LHR-SYD 30 years ago had extra pilots.

From the ET article:

"Scientists and medical experts from the Charles Perkins Centre will monitor sleep patterns, food and beverage consumption, lighting, physical movement and inflight entertainment to assess impact on health, wellbeing and body clock.

Monash University researchers will work with pilots to record crew melatonin levels before, during and after the flights. Pilots will wear an EEG device that tracks brain wave patterns and monitors alertness, with the aim of establishing data "to assist in building the optimum work and rest pattern for pilots operating long haul services."

And AJ says: "This is ultimately a business decision and the economics have to stack up. One of the hurdles is a deal with our pilots to fly the aircraft. We’re asking for them for some productivity gains – just as we did with the introduction of the Dreamliner – and those discussions are ongoing."


So as zeke has pointed out, pilot negotiations are also a big part of this decision. The A350 vs 777X that a.net is obsessed with is an important part of the equation, but it's just one part of the equation that has many parts.
 
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:49 am

In the days of prop liners, we already operated routes this long. TWA flew west coast USA - Europe scheduled flights that exceeded 18 hours in the L1649. The first westbound return LHR-SFO was 23 hours and 18 minutes aloft.
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Re: Qantas plans to operate 3 Project Sunrise research flights by end of 2019 using 787-9 aircraft

Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:03 am

qf789 wrote:
Qantas has both Airbus and Boeing's best and final offers on the table including a compelling offer to deal with any delays on the 777X



Neither a Qantas or Boeing actually said that, that comes from an article a week citing a “source”.

From https://www.todayonline.com/world/boein ... rsion-777x

“Boeing's proposal included a "compelling option" to help deal with the 777-8 delay because it was keen to the stay in the race, according to a source with knowledge of the matter who was not authorized to speak publicly.”
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:09 am

FLALEFTY wrote:
This brings up a question: Does the B777X pressurize to a 6,000 Ft. cabin, like the 787, or an 8,000 Ft. cabin, like the current 777? The A350 matches the 787 in this important spec, as I recall. The cabin altitude difference would have a significant impact on passenger well being over the course of a 20-hour flight.


Yes it will.
 
FiftyLitres
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Re: Qantas plans to operate 3 Project Sunrise research flights by end of 2019 using 787-9 aircraft

Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:15 am

zeke wrote:
qf789 wrote:
Qantas has both Airbus and Boeing's best and final offers on the table including a compelling offer to deal with any delays on the 777X



Neither a Qantas or Boeing actually said that, that comes from an article a week citing a “source”.

From https://www.todayonline.com/world/boein ... rsion-777x

“Boeing's proposal included a "compelling option" to help deal with the 777-8 delay because it was keen to the stay in the race, according to a source with knowledge of the matter who was not authorized to speak publicly.”


On the contrary, Qantas CEO Alan Joyce specifically mentioned the Boeing deal/"compelling option" in the press conference today.
 
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Re: Qantas plans to operate 3 Project Sunrise research flights by end of 2019 using 787-9 aircraft

Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:20 am

FiftyLitres wrote:
On the contrary, Qantas CEO Alan Joyce specifically mentioned the Boeing deal/"compelling option" in the press conference today.


Did Joyce actually say today “compelling option to help deal with the 777-8 delay” like was quoted a week ago or “compelling option” ?
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:22 am

qf789 wrote:
At today's FY2018/2019 results Qantas has announced they will conduct 3 research flights operating both JFK-SYD and LHR-SYD using 787-9 aircraft. These aircraft will be used as delivery flights of 787-9's Qantas will take delivery of in October, November and December

Each flight will have a maximum of 40 people onboard and the flights will be used to gain data from passenger and crew health and well being. The data will then be shared with CASA to help inform regulatory requirements associated with ULH flights

https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media ... australia/


Could this mean a second Project Sunset to set the sun on Project Sunrise if these tests don’t work out favourably or the pilots don’t deliver efficiency improvements?

It doesn’t seem completely set that this will all go ahead.
 
FiftyLitres
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Re: Qantas plans to operate 3 Project Sunrise research flights by end of 2019 using 787-9 aircraft

Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:28 am

zeke wrote:
FiftyLitres wrote:
On the contrary, Qantas CEO Alan Joyce specifically mentioned the Boeing deal/"compelling option" in the press conference today.


Did Joyce actually say today “compelling option to help deal with the 777-8 delay” like was quoted a week ago or “compelling option” ?


He stated a "compelling option to deal with any possible B777X delays." I specifically noted the word "possible" that he included. He also didn't specifically mention the -8 model only "B777X".

I'm very curious as to what that option might be!
 
aryonoco
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Re: Qantas plans to operate 3 Project Sunrise research flights by end of 2019 using 787-9 aircraft

Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:40 am

zeke wrote:

Did Joyce actually say today “compelling option to help deal with the 777-8 delay” like was quoted a week ago or “compelling option” ?


This is the quote from Joyce:

"We know that Boeing and Airbus have aircraft that can do the job, and we have their best-and-final offers on the table – including a compelling offer from Boeing to deal with any delay to the 777X."
 
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Re: Qantas plans to operate 3 Project Sunrise research flights by end of 2019 using 787-9 aircraft

Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:46 am

FiftyLitres wrote:
zeke wrote:
FiftyLitres wrote:
On the contrary, Qantas CEO Alan Joyce specifically mentioned the Boeing deal/"compelling option" in the press conference today.


Did Joyce actually say today “compelling option to help deal with the 777-8 delay” like was quoted a week ago or “compelling option” ?


He stated a "compelling option to deal with any possible B777X delays." I specifically noted the word "possible" that he included. He also didn't specifically mention the -8 model only "B777X".

I'm very curious as to what that option might be!


I found this comment, it did not contain "possible" https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/speec ... 9-results/

"We know that Boeing and Airbus have aircraft that can do the job, and we have their best-and-final offers on the table – including a compelling offer from Boeing to deal with any delay to the 777X."

That is what was in the paper last week, which is an absolute no no during the blackout period. CEOs comments should not be made in advance of the results.
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:50 am

I may be a cynic but this whole test flight thing is more a stunt than anything else. QF will be planning to use them for lots of free publicity; whilst they say it is QF staff only, what's the bet 7 or 9 get a reporter and camera crew on-board? The cost of the flights is stuff-all given they are delivery flights that have to be made anyway. The only incremental cost is repositioning the planes from Seattle to JFK and LHR.

QF has been flying PER-LHR for nearly 2 years; they have lots of data about long-distance flights with a full cabin on flights on over 17 hours. The data on a 2 hour longer flight with only a 20% load is hardly going to advance the science much.
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Re: Qantas plans to operate 3 Project Sunrise research flights by end of 2019 using 787-9 aircraft

Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:56 am

zeke wrote:
FiftyLitres wrote:
zeke wrote:

Did Joyce actually say today “compelling option to help deal with the 777-8 delay” like was quoted a week ago or “compelling option” ?


He stated a "compelling option to deal with any possible B777X delays." I specifically noted the word "possible" that he included. He also didn't specifically mention the -8 model only "B777X".

I'm very curious as to what that option might be!


I found this comment, it did not contain "possible" https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/speec ... 9-results/

"We know that Boeing and Airbus have aircraft that can do the job, and we have their best-and-final offers on the table – including a compelling offer from Boeing to deal with any delay to the 777X."

That is what was in the paper last week, which is an absolute no no during the blackout period. CEOs comments should not be made in advance of the results.


You are right, I misheard. That is the correct quote.
 
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:59 am

Clever trick. I'm sure they do want some data, but I'm also sure this will bring a load of publicity, just like that record-setting 747-400 flight did 30 years ago.

I remain deeply curious about the "compelling option." I don't understand what Boeing could offer that would be compelling. The only products they have to sell that can make the route with even a halfway reasonable payload are the 777-8 and a 777-200LR with AFTs. The 777-9 would be quite payload restricted, and the 787-9 even more so. And with the 77L, I just can't imagine Joyce saying: "look at our brand new flagship service -- something nobody in the world has ever done before! And here is our 2004-technology aircraft to fly it." It's a publicity quandary even if QF more or less gets to use the 77Ls for free.
 
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:04 am

tullamarine wrote:
I may be a cynic but this whole test flight thing is more a stunt than anything else. QF will be planning to use them for lots of free publicity; whilst they say it is QF staff only, what's the bet 7 or 9 get a reporter and camera crew on-board? The cost of the flights is stuff-all given they are delivery flights that have to be made anyway. The only incremental cost is repositioning the planes from Seattle to JFK and LHR.

QF has been flying PER-LHR for nearly 2 years; they have lots of data about long-distance flights with a full cabin on flights on over 17 hours. The data on a 2 hour longer flight with only a 20% load is hardly going to advance the science much.

I disagree Tullamarine. IMHO the key bit is the research by the Charles Perkins Centre [USYD] & Monash [MEL] and its firstly for CASA and secondarly for the pilots because if CASA don't buy off on it the project is dead. Having real research numbers from two respected universities will very definately improve th chances with CASA. That statement assumes that the results are supportive and if not they may well lead to new ways of doing things that satisfy both CASA & the pilots.

Gemuser
 
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:06 am

I doubt they could use B787-9 for the actual project sunrise.

If they can't get at least 150 passengers on board for the flight, there is no way it would be profitable.
 
tullamarine
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:13 am

Gemuser wrote:
tullamarine wrote:
I may be a cynic but this whole test flight thing is more a stunt than anything else. QF will be planning to use them for lots of free publicity; whilst they say it is QF staff only, what's the bet 7 or 9 get a reporter and camera crew on-board? The cost of the flights is stuff-all given they are delivery flights that have to be made anyway. The only incremental cost is repositioning the planes from Seattle to JFK and LHR.

QF has been flying PER-LHR for nearly 2 years; they have lots of data about long-distance flights with a full cabin on flights on over 17 hours. The data on a 2 hour longer flight with only a 20% load is hardly going to advance the science much.

I disagree Tullamarine. IMHO the key bit is the research by the Charles Perkins Centre [USYD] & Monash [MEL] and its firstly for CASA and secondarly for the pilots because if CASA don't buy off on it the project is dead. Having real research numbers from two respected universities will very definately improve th chances with CASA. That statement assumes that the results are supportive and if not they may well lead to new ways of doing things that satisfy both CASA & the pilots.

Gemuser

So if it is only to test the effect on the flight crew, why have any passengers at all particularly as a largely empty cabin won't prove much? I can't believe QF have be talking about and spending money on Sunrise for over 2 years without knowing if it is even practical even if there is a capable plane; this doesn't make business sense. If QF do it quietly without press onboard, I may have more faith but they know how to milk free advertising and I think we all know they won't miss the opportunity.
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:21 am

seabosdca wrote:
Clever trick. I'm sure they do want some data, but I'm also sure this will bring a load of publicity, just like that record-setting 747-400 flight did 30 years ago.

I remain deeply curious about the "compelling option." I don't understand what Boeing could offer that would be compelling. The only products they have to sell that can make the route with even a halfway reasonable payload are the 777-8 and a 777-200LR with AFTs. The 777-9 would be quite payload restricted, and the 787-9 even more so. And with the 77L, I just can't imagine Joyce saying: "look at our brand new flagship service -- something nobody in the world has ever done before! And here is our 2004-technology aircraft to fly it." It's a publicity quandary even if QF more or less gets to use the 77Ls for free.


I'd imagine the "compelling option" is not so much to do with Project Sunrise directly, but more to do with their overall fleet planning outside of Project Sunrise in the way of bundling in heavily discounted 787-9s for the remainder of their long haul fleet replacement/expansion and/or 797s should they eventuate.
 
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:31 am

tullamarine wrote:
I may be a cynic but this whole test flight thing is more a stunt than anything else. QF will be planning to use them for lots of free publicity; whilst they say it is QF staff only, what's the bet 7 or 9 get a reporter and camera crew on-board? The cost of the flights is stuff-all given they are delivery flights that have to be made anyway. The only incremental cost is repositioning the planes from Seattle to JFK and LHR.

QF has been flying PER-LHR for nearly 2 years; they have lots of data about long-distance flights with a full cabin on flights on over 17 hours. The data on a 2 hour longer flight with only a 20% load is hardly going to advance the science much.


I disagree. They have data on 17 hour flights. They don't have data on 20 hour flights. This research in invaluable in understanding crew rest requirements, pilot fatigue levels, convincing CASA etc.

Yes they're making a PR song and dance about it as well. Good for them, QF's marketing is doing its job. That doesn't mean the whole exercise is a PR stunt.
 
DavidByrne
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:04 am

tullamarine wrote:
tullamarine wrote:
I may be a cynic but this whole test flight thing is more a stunt than anything else. QF will be planning to use them for lots of free publicity; whilst they say it is QF staff only, what's the bet 7 or 9 get a reporter and camera crew on-board?

If QF do it quietly without press onboard, I may have more faith but they know how to milk free advertising and I think we all know they won't miss the opportunity.

Why would it matter if the flight had press on hoard and was a "stunt" as you call it? Are they not allowed publicity? What's the problem here, really?
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planecane
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:20 am

tullamarine wrote:
Gemuser wrote:
tullamarine wrote:
I may be a cynic but this whole test flight thing is more a stunt than anything else. QF will be planning to use them for lots of free publicity; whilst they say it is QF staff only, what's the bet 7 or 9 get a reporter and camera crew on-board? The cost of the flights is stuff-all given they are delivery flights that have to be made anyway. The only incremental cost is repositioning the planes from Seattle to JFK and LHR.

QF has been flying PER-LHR for nearly 2 years; they have lots of data about long-distance flights with a full cabin on flights on over 17 hours. The data on a 2 hour longer flight with only a 20% load is hardly going to advance the science much.

I disagree Tullamarine. IMHO the key bit is the research by the Charles Perkins Centre [USYD] & Monash [MEL] and its firstly for CASA and secondarly for the pilots because if CASA don't buy off on it the project is dead. Having real research numbers from two respected universities will very definately improve th chances with CASA. That statement assumes that the results are supportive and if not they may well lead to new ways of doing things that satisfy both CASA & the pilots.

Gemuser

So if it is only to test the effect on the flight crew, why have any passengers at all particularly as a largely empty cabin won't prove much? I can't believe QF have be talking about and spending money on Sunrise for over 2 years without knowing if it is even practical even if there is a capable plane; this doesn't make business sense. If QF do it quietly without press onboard, I may have more faith but they know how to milk free advertising and I think we all know they won't miss the opportunity.

I think they want to evaluate how passengers handle such a long flight. If people don't tolerate it well they won't sell many tickets especially not at price premium.

I can't imagine sitting in economy for 20 hours straight. Not being able to lay down when you'd be awake almost a full day sounds like a nightmare to me. You've got to get to the airport which takes some time and arrive there 2 hours or so before the flight. If the flight time is 19 hours+, by the time you land you would have had to have woken up a good 22 hours earlier. If you can't get some decent sleep enroute you'll be miserable when you arrive.

I have extreme difficulty falling asleep for more than a few minutes in an economy seat. I've slept most of two flights in my life. Once when I was really sick with a high fever and probably shouldn't have been flying. The other after a very late night/morning at the end of a business trip in Las Vegas. Basically I have to be completely exhausted to sleep in economy.
 
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:20 am

seabosdca wrote:
And with the 77L, I just can't imagine Joyce saying: "look at our brand new flagship service -- something nobody in the world has ever done before! And here is our 2004-technology aircraft to fly it." It's a publicity quandary even if QF more or less gets to use the 77Ls for free.

You're thinking too hard.

Even if that very scenario somehow ended up being the case, they're going to PR the hell out of it, and 99% of the public (and that includes most media/reporters) will have no idea that it's something they could've done a decade and a half ago with such a ship.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
grbauc
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:50 am

Varsity1 wrote:
In the days of prop liners, we already operated routes this long. TWA flew west coast USA - Europe scheduled flights that exceeded 18 hours in the L1649. The first westbound return LHR-SFO was 23 hours and 18 minutes aloft.


I was thinking that yeah what’s the big deal on these flights. I’ve taken the Singapore LAX direct to Singapore that had headwinds and it ended up taking 19 hours On the A345. I miss that plane.
What was the big ones for a A346 is it or a A343 ? that used to come into LAX terminal two for Air France I believe, that plane was huge with crazy wingspan.
 
marcelh
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:57 am

With that “compelling” offer, it looks this is more than just a B778 versus A35K-ULR competition. If Boeing throws in some dirt cheap interim 77L and/or “an 787 offer Qantas can’t refuse”, it’s game, set and match for Boeing (and GE). Desperate times needs some desperate measures.
 
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qf789
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:21 am

In an interview with Bloomberg TV Alan Joyce ruled out the 787, it’s between the 778 and A350

https://twitter.com/karomiziolek/status ... 69249?s=21
Forum Moderator
 
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PacoMartin
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:29 am

tullamarine wrote:
I may be a cynic but this whole test flight thing is more a stunt than anything else.


Cynicism is a valuable emotion.

Oh no! We had one of our employees get an unexpected brain aneurysm!
 
marcelh
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:56 am

qf789 wrote:
In an interview with Bloomberg TV Alan Joyce ruled out the 787, it’s between the 778 and A350

https://twitter.com/karomiziolek/status ... 69249?s=21


I don’t want to split hairs, but it’s between the A350 on one side and the B778 + “compelling” offer on the other side. And Qantas is the winner :bigthumbsup:
 
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zkojq
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:56 am

aryonoco wrote:
And AJ says: "This is ultimately a business decision and the economics have to stack up. One of the hurdles is a deal with our pilots to fly the aircraft. We’re asking for them for some productivity gains – just as we did with the introduction of the Dreamliner – and those discussions are ongoing."

Translation: we don't want the crew to have layovers any longer than the existing layovers for PER-LHR-PER crews.
First to fly the 787-9
 
RickNRoll
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:13 am

After all this time, they now decide that they are going to test if the concept is even viable. Something wrong with their planning somewhere. If they decide it's not viable, do they just apologise to Boeing and Airbus for wasting their time?
 
VV
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:14 am

Only three flights?
 
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Lingon
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:22 am

The research must be 100% aimed at the crew.
For a realistic experiment for passengers, they must be seated together in economy and have all lavs but one blocked - I bet they won't do that.. ;)
 
VV
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:32 am

Lingon wrote:
The research must be 100% aimed at the crew.
For a realistic experiment for passengers, they must be seated together in economy and have all lavs but one blocked - I bet they won't do that.. ;)


The airline will provide new generation of sick bags. They will be bigger, stronger and better sealed.

If used it will be disposed upon arrival by the user at the airport.
 
benjjk
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:35 am

By Australian law, the required changes to the Qantas fatigue management system must be underpinned by research and data. Even though 3 flights isn't a huge sample size there's no better way to do this research than... to do the actual flights. So whilst there is absolutely a large marketing angle to these flights, some of this work is necessary to getting the program off the ground.
 
majano
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:02 am

RickNRoll wrote:
After all this time, they now decide that they are going to test if the concept is even viable. Something wrong with their planning somewhere. If they decide it's not viable, do they just apologise to Boeing and Airbus for wasting their time?

I guess time will tell but my opinion is that this "Project Sunrise" is more of a show than an aircraft acquisition project. So, in / around / before December 2019, Qantas will decide / evaluate / comply with the "best and final offers" for the equipment, the business model, the regulatory requirements, pilot negotiations, scientific research, etc. etc? I may be proven wrong, but I feel like QF has just given themselves one-hundred-and-one escape routes from this farcical show.
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:08 am

aryonoco wrote:
More than anything, this is to gain some hard data re pilot fatigue to share with CASA.

The 744 that flew LHR-SYD 30 years ago had extra pilots.


The 747 flight 30 years was a publicity stunt. It's safe to assume no research was carried out to the levels that QF are intending to do with these upcoming flights, so as you say it's to gain hard data for the unions and authorities.

I found this article about the 747 flight which makes for interesting reading. A notable point which will be relevant to both the test flights and the Sunrise flights is how adverse weather at SYD which only became apparent during the flight nearly thwarted the attempt...

http://www.traveller.com.au/how-a-qanta ... 989-h0y0y4
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