cpd
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:01 am

DeltaB717 wrote:
cpd wrote:
qf789 wrote:

You do know that the chief 787 pilot is also a woman and has piloted many long haul flights already, including the delivery of the first 789 plus the inaugural PER-LHR and was also on the first JFK-SYD as well


At the risk of us going off topic and away from the original subject, that would be Georgina Sutton. I have a huge amount of respect for her. Grateful also for some of her experiences she shared which have benefited me a lot.

She’d probably roll her eye at LTBEWR’s comment. She actually wanted to be a Police helicopter pilot, but the old fashioned Police bureaucracy of the day put paid to that, so she went and flew 747-400s and 767s instead. The rest of that story is classic.


The Chief Pilot for the 787, and the project lead for the 787 introduction, is actually Lisa Norman.


Indeed you are right, I'm mistaken.
 
Sparker
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:07 am

ShamrockBoi330 wrote:
claudiofalcao wrote:
ShamrockBoi330 wrote:

Read articles yesterday indicating (rumour mill!) this was the compelling offer that was made to QF and it was too good to refuse... take the 777-200LRs with 270 capacity until the 777-8 is ready and then BA take them back and convert to freighters for FedEx.

EDIT: including link
https://www.airlineratings.com/news/wil ... -aircraft/


Wow!
Has the 777-200LR enough ability to reach London, from Sydney, with 270 souls?


if it did, you'd wonder what all the fuss is about, and why isn't it already operating tbh!


Some of the other reporting/rumours suggested that Boeing had also offered to compensate QF for the higher fuel bills of operating a sub-optimal plane (either the 779 or, potentially based on this article, the 772LR) until the 778 was ready. It might be that the fuel burn on the 772LR is just too high to do SYD-LHR economically, without added compensation.
 
NTLDaz
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:20 am

ShamrockBoi330 wrote:
claudiofalcao wrote:
ShamrockBoi330 wrote:

Read articles yesterday indicating (rumour mill!) this was the compelling offer that was made to QF and it was too good to refuse... take the 777-200LRs with 270 capacity until the 777-8 is ready and then BA take them back and convert to freighters for FedEx.

EDIT: including link
https://www.airlineratings.com/news/wil ... -aircraft/


Wow!
Has the 777-200LR enough ability to reach London, from Sydney, with 270 souls?


if it did, you'd wonder what all the fuss is about, and why isn't it already operating tbh!


Being able to do it and being able to do it economically are 2 very different things.

'If ' Boeing were to underwrite additional costs until the 777-8 is available that may change the dynamics.
 
getluv
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:03 am

Australian media are reporting that QF have rejected both initial offers from Boeing and Airbus.

https://www.smh.com.au/business/compani ... 53c02.html
I'm that bad type.
 
RickNRoll
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:14 am

Major LOL. Thanks for wasting everyones time, Joyce.
 
Ishrion
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:17 am

getluv wrote:
Australian media are reporting that QF have rejected both initial offers from Boeing and Airbus.

https://www.smh.com.au/business/compani ... 53c02.html


Nice article, can't wait to see the "Airbus A350-100ULR"
 
Pcoder
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:23 am

It's possible that there really only one plane suitable and the manufacturers don't want to give too much of a discount.

I'd imagine the discount might become larger if they also more aircraft as the 10 or so aircraft needed for sunrise flights initially is probably too small for Airbus and Boeing to go out of their way to win it.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:25 am

getluv wrote:
Australian media are reporting that QF have rejected both initial offers from Boeing and Airbus.

https://www.smh.com.au/business/compani ... 53c02.html

Mr Joyce knows which one he wants already. He is just digging for better pricing I think.

Fred


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dampfnudel
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:26 am

getluv wrote:
Australian media are reporting that QF have rejected both initial offers from Boeing and Airbus.

https://www.smh.com.au/business/compani ... 53c02.html

Looks like Joyce want$ to have his cake and eat it too.
A313 332 343 B703 712 722 732 73G 738 739 741 742 744 752 762 76E 764 772 AT5 CR9 D10 DHH DHT F27 GRM L10 M83 TU5

AA AI CO CL DE DL EA HA KL LH N7 PA PQ SK RO TW UA YR
 
RickNRoll
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:47 am

getluv wrote:
Australian media are reporting that QF have rejected both initial offers from Boeing and Airbus.

https://www.smh.com.au/business/compani ... 53c02.html


More like Boeing and Airbus rejected the low ball offers from Joyce.
 
cpd
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:52 am

RickNRoll wrote:
getluv wrote:
Australian media are reporting that QF have rejected both initial offers from Boeing and Airbus.

https://www.smh.com.au/business/compani ... 53c02.html


More like Boeing and Airbus rejected the low ball offers from Joyce.


What does he do if both the manufacturers say no? This would be quite a fine way for such a big thing to end.
 
VV
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:58 am

getluv wrote:
Australian media are reporting that QF have rejected both initial offers from Boeing and Airbus.

https://www.smh.com.au/business/compani ... 53c02.html



The article says.
    "Qantas has rejected Airbus and Boeing’s proposals for new aircraft that can fly non-stop from Sydney and Melbourne to New York and London, saying they need to lower their prices to make the business case stack up."

Or does it simply mean the routes are not viable anyway?
 
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vhtje
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:10 am

cpd wrote:
What does he do if both the manufacturers say no? This would be quite a fine way for such a big thing to end.


Perhaps they already have? How does a business respond to an RFP it doesn’t want to win? It prices its tender response high, too high for it to be appealing to the requestor.

Patrick Hatch / Sydney Morning Herald wrote:
Qantas has rejected Airbus and Boeing’s proposals for new aircraft that can fly non-stop from Sydney and Melbourne to New York and London, saying they need to lower their prices to make the business case stack up.
I only turn left when boarding aircraft. Well, mostly. All right, sometimes. OH OKAY - rarely.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:17 am

Qantas rejects both Airbus and Boeing's "best and final" offers. Which part of best and final is not understood?

Joyce wants more from the OEMs.
Joyce expects passengers to pay a 30% premium on fares for non-stop.
Joyce expects an extra 30% productivity from crew.
Joyce expects more from the regulators.

If he gets all that, he might have a business case? Me thinks the lady doth protest too much. I see the sun rapidly setting on Project Sunrise.
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RickNRoll
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:27 am

scbriml wrote:
Qantas rejects both Airbus and Boeing's "best and final" offers. Which part of best and final is not understood?

Joyce wants more from the OEMs.
Joyce expects passengers to pay a 30% premium on fares for non-stop.
Joyce expects an extra 30% productivity from crew.
Joyce expects more from the regulators.

If he gets all that, he might have a business case? Me thinks the lady doth protest too much. I see the sun rapidly setting on Project Sunrise.


You left out

Joyce wants a 30% bonus.
 
VV
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:33 am

cpd wrote:
RickNRoll wrote:
getluv wrote:
Australian media are reporting that QF have rejected both initial offers from Boeing and Airbus.

https://www.smh.com.au/business/compani ... 53c02.html


More like Boeing and Airbus rejected the low ball offers from Joyce.


What does he do if both the manufacturers say no? This would be quite a fine way for such a big thing to end.


Basically Qantas wants a price discount for all aircraft of the whole fleet when their business case does not work only for two routes.
 
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:57 am

VV wrote:
cpd wrote:
RickNRoll wrote:

More like Boeing and Airbus rejected the low ball offers from Joyce.


What does he do if both the manufacturers say no? This would be quite a fine way for such a big thing to end.


Basically Qantas wants a price discount for all aircraft of the whole fleet when their business case does not work only for two routes.

IF you read the article it is not just about $$$.
Mr La Spina said Qantas had asked the manufacturers to not just consider price, but also guarantees and conditions to deal with "what if" scenarios.


There could be some interesting new items in airline/OEM negotiarions.

Gemuser
 
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scbriml
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:10 am

Gemuser wrote:
IF you read the article it is not just about $$$.


I did read the article. :yes:

It's the same thing at the end of the day - like buying a car and you agreeing to the dealer's price but asking for a few more extras and another two years' warranty. Oh, and throw in another service please. It's only about $$$. Qantas is demanding more of it from everyone it seems.
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moa999
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:11 am

Headlines are alarmist with 'reject'.
Very clear they are still in negotiations.

Given this was in response to offers submitted in August, if it was an absolute reject they would have cancelled the Sunrise test flights.
 
Sparker
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:31 am

Two thoughts.

First, I can see a world in which
  • Airbus thought they didn't need to bid too aggressively, because of all the woes that Boeing was facing - basically, expecting that Boeing couldn't compete too hard, and
  • Boeing pitched a whole bunch of offsets, but tried to keep the upfront price pretty high.

In that circumstance, it'd make sense for QF to send them back. That, and QF has had a laser-like focus on cost control and ROIC over the past few years.

Second, I find it interesting that QF appears to be negotiating through the press with major OEMs. I would have thought Airbus and Boeing would be hard-nosed enough to not be pressured, and I assume QF is smart enough to know that. I suspect that QF's megaphone is more for the benefit of investors and financiers who might get nervous that QF is going to splurge on a very expensive fleet of very niche aircraft to fly a very (financially) risky mission ("see, we're being very disciplined about this - don't jack up our cost of capital").

And probably also for the benefit of the pilots and their unions ("when we told you that everything rests on the business case stacking up, we meant it - see, we're going hard on Airbus and Boeing too, not just you").
 
RickNRoll
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:51 am

moa999 wrote:
Headlines are alarmist with 'reject'.
Very clear they are still in negotiations.

Given this was in response to offers submitted in August, if it was an absolute reject they would have cancelled the Sunrise test flights.
It's all just part of the Alan Joyce kibuki theatre. He has to do something to justify his bonus.
 
APYu
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:02 am

Theres a healthy pipeline for the A350, Airbus don't need to bend over for a relatively small order which could turn out to be a pain in the backside
We'd like to welcome in particular our Executive Club members and those joining us from our Oneworld alliance partners.
 
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:04 am

So in summary: Qantas wants the planes for less, the crews to take a pay cut and the passengers to pay more ?
 
Pcoder
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:10 am

APYu wrote:
Theres a healthy pipeline for the A350, Airbus don't need to bend over for a relatively small order which could turn out to be a pain in the backside


Yeah, I think Airbus want a few orders for non Sunrise A350s (ie eventual a380 replacements) before it will start to offer more discounts. Airbus probably doesn't need to fill it backlog in the next couple of years, but I think they would like to pencil in an order for more a350s in 8 to 10 years time.
 
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:14 am

JannEejit wrote:
So in summary: Qantas wants the planes for less, the crews to take a pay cut and the passengers to pay more ?


As opening gambits that seems reasonable!

gemuser
 
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RyanairGuru
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:32 am

JannEejit wrote:
So in summary: Qantas wants the planes for less, the crews to take a pay cut and the passengers to pay more ?


I assume that this is just a negotiating tactic, but if the business case really is dependent on all of those things then it will almost certainly never see the light of day and they should never have started down this road in the first place. They have amassed a ton of free publicity, but will have pissed off Airbus, Boeing, the pilots, and quite possibly CASA by wasting everyone's time.
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IndianicWorld
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:51 am

This seems more like one of the biggest publicity stunts yet tried... so many articles about the carrier, so much spin and excitement building for all these upcoming enhancements, yet we now see the reality that many have suggested previously.... that is.. how does it stack up?

By the sounds of it, it’s a very marginal business case at best and all these ‘what if?’ type clauses that are pointed to make it clear there isn’t a significant level of confidence in the plan.

I hope to be proven wrong but the whole thing seems like a step too far and a marketing move for the ages, but will certainly fall flat if they pull the pin and things don’t seem legitimate in the final analysis of the whole situation.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:20 pm

Gemuser wrote:
JannEejit wrote:
So in summary: Qantas wants the planes for less, the crews to take a pay cut and the passengers to pay more ?


As opening gambits that seems reasonable!

gemuser


An opening gambit after bidders have submitted "best and final" offers? :crazy:

That's a rather curious strategy. Airbus or Boeing may adjust their bids, but in reality I doubt they'll give Qantas anything more, otherwise there's no point asking for "best and final" offers any longer.
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JerseyFlyer
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:26 pm

scbriml wrote:
Gemuser wrote:
JannEejit wrote:
So in summary: Qantas wants the planes for less, the crews to take a pay cut and the passengers to pay more ?


As opening gambits that seems reasonable!

gemuser


An opening gambit after bidders have submitted "best and final" offers? :crazy:

That's a rather curious strategy. Airbus or Boeing may adjust their bids, but in reality I doubt they'll give Qantas anything more, otherwise there's no point asking for "best and final" offers any longer.


In UK house purchase deals this would be called a "gazunder". The key new info for me is that the order is stated to be for 12 frames:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-qant ... SKBN1XS2KX
 
IndianicWorld
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:28 pm

scbriml wrote:
Gemuser wrote:
JannEejit wrote:
So in summary: Qantas wants the planes for less, the crews to take a pay cut and the passengers to pay more ?


As opening gambits that seems reasonable!

gemuser


An opening gambit after bidders have submitted "best and final" offers? :crazy:

That's a rather curious strategy. Airbus or Boeing may adjust their bids, but in reality I doubt they'll give Qantas anything more, otherwise there's no point asking for "best and final" offers any longer.


Seems QF think it’s the initial negotiation step :)

Certainly a very interesting course of events.
 
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keesje
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:34 pm

.
I think Airbus will offer Qantas an competitive priced package of A350-900s, A350LR's and A350-1000s.

If that package doesn't meet Qantas' requirements, they should pick up the opportunity with Boeing and buy their 777-8's.

Image

It will do fantastic in Qantas colors. Maybe Boeing can further customize it for Qantas' Sunrise project.

They could order at least like.. 12! Plus, maybe 16 -9's!
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:37 pm

keesje wrote:
.
I think Airbus will offer Qantas an competitive priced package of A350-900s, A350LR's and A350-1000s.

If that package doesn't meet Qantas' requirements, they should pick up the opportunity with Boeing and buy their 777-8's.

Image

It will do fantastic in Qantas colors. Maybe Boeing can further customize it for Qantas' Sunrise project.

They could order at least like.. 12! Plus, maybe 16 -9's!


Wait?!?!?!? Have you made that shorter? The 777-6X?

Fred
Image
 
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RyanairGuru
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:44 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
keesje wrote:
.
I think Airbus will offer Qantas an competitive priced package of A350-900s, A350LR's and A350-1000s.

If that package doesn't meet Qantas' requirements, they should pick up the opportunity with Boeing and buy their 777-8's.

Image

It will do fantastic in Qantas colors. Maybe Boeing can further customize it for Qantas' Sunrise project.

They could order at least like.. 12! Plus, maybe 16 -9's!


Wait?!?!?!? Have you made that shorter? The 777-6X?

Fred

I was just thinking it looks like a 777-200ER spent a very pleasant evening with a 787.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:53 pm

RyanairGuru wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
keesje wrote:
.
I think Airbus will offer Qantas an competitive priced package of A350-900s, A350LR's and A350-1000s.

If that package doesn't meet Qantas' requirements, they should pick up the opportunity with Boeing and buy their 777-8's.

Image

It will do fantastic in Qantas colors. Maybe Boeing can further customize it for Qantas' Sunrise project.

They could order at least like.. 12! Plus, maybe 16 -9's!


Wait?!?!?!? Have you made that shorter? The 777-6X?

Fred

I was just thinking it looks like a 777-200ER spent a very pleasant evening with a 787.

And like one of those spiders ate the male after the event!

Fred
Image
 
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keesje
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Tue Nov 19, 2019 1:12 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
keesje wrote:
.
I think Airbus will offer Qantas an competitive priced package of A350-900s, A350LR's and A350-1000s.

If that package doesn't meet Qantas' requirements, they should pick up the opportunity with Boeing and buy their 777-8's.

Image

It will do fantastic in Qantas colors. Maybe Boeing can further customize it for Qantas' Sunrise project.

They could order at least like.. 12! Plus, maybe 16 -9's!


Wait?!?!?!? Have you made that shorter? The 777-6X?

Fred


It's a 777-8. it's a bit heavy for it's seat capacity, but it has enormous wings and can fly very far.

Image
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Bricktop
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:18 pm

Both OEMs seem to be acting with commercial discipline. So much for the a.net standard fanboy commentary about "buying the deal", especially because "they need it". The phrase "best and final" means just that, and both A and B were unprepared to take a haircut. Good on 'em!
 
wingman
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:30 pm

In the article the one exec says he needs to extract a 30% productivity "gain" in the wage structure (something pilots probably refer to as a "pay cut"). In the next breath Joyce says he expects to command a 30% premium in fares over one-stop competitors. I would've saved that comment for after the the wage concessions had been locked in. Fat chance now.
 
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:32 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
A & B are essentially gonna have to spend a significant sum of money developing a subset which no one but QF are going to buy. If its 20 frames, even just $100m in development is $5m /frame (beyond the original development amortisation put into the price of each airframe).

They aren't gonna develop that frame for free. So QF better be prepared to stump up the cost.


My thoughts exactly, QF expects A/B to eat the development costs of basically a new submodel designed specifically for them?
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:36 pm

Honolulu seems to be a perfect midpoint tech stop for JFK-SYD. There are several suitable tech stops for LHR-SYD.
Let pax stretch their legs while crew service cabins, empty waste, refuel and load relatively fresh airline food.
 
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:42 pm

claudiofalcao wrote:
Has the 777-200LR enough ability to reach London, from Sydney, with 270 souls?


Depends on the seating configuration. Back in 2005, as I recall the 777-200LR could carry around 200 in four classes. Dropping First and keeping the premium cabin (J+W) at the 40% of the 787-9 or less? Seems possible if Boeing pitched it.
 
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:44 pm

cpd wrote:
What does he do if both the manufacturers say no? This would be quite a fine way for such a big thing to end.

Someone floated the theory earlier that Joyce does want it to end, since he knows it really isn't a viable plan.

Maybe he wants to end it and is doing so by blaming the vendors.

APYu wrote:
Theres a healthy pipeline for the A350, Airbus don't need to bend over for a relatively small order which could turn out to be a pain in the backside

I think that it's a prestige project that both vendors would like to win, but there's a limit to how far they will go to get the order.

If I were a vendor I'd ask for AJ's last and best offer and then either accept or walk away.

I wouldn't tie up my sales and engineering resources any longer since he's now rejected their LFO.

I think there's some benefit to being the first one to walk away from the deal if in reality it is QF/AJ that is being unreasonable.

Of course there are only so many customers out there so it'd have to be done tactfully, but in the end it's irresponsible to tie up sales and engineering resources to bid on a project that is not realistically going to produce an order.

TFA says:

"We have to get the premium from our customers … we have to get in the position where the manufacturers contribute their contribution, we have to get the regulator on side and we have to get the pilots on side," Mr Joyce said.

"I have no problem… in saying 'we gave it a good try but it didn’t work'."

Seems he is positioning himself for it to all fall apart.

He's already extended the circle of blame to cover customers, manufacturers, regulators and pilots.

We see the manufacturers aren't providing their "contribution" and I really wonder why pilots and cabin crew would feel the need to contribute anything at all.

If anything pilots and cabin crew should be asking for more pay/rest rather than less.
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Strato2
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Tue Nov 19, 2019 5:06 pm

Revelation wrote:

APYu wrote:
Theres a healthy pipeline for the A350, Airbus don't need to bend over for a relatively small order which could turn out to be a pain in the backside

I think that it's a prestige project that both vendors would like to win, but there's a limit to how far they will go to get the order.


What prestige is there in 2019 for an environmentally irresponsible project such as this?
 
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JerseyFlyer
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Tue Nov 19, 2019 5:30 pm

Airbus has played down the idea of a near-term A350neo. So there is no option for QF to wait for that, or buy A350ceos now with the expectation of a neo replacement becoming available in a shortish timeframe:

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... lk-462392/
 
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Revelation
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Tue Nov 19, 2019 5:41 pm

Strato2 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
I think that it's a prestige project that both vendors would like to win, but there's a limit to how far they will go to get the order.

What prestige is there in 2019 for an environmentally irresponsible project such as this?

Personally I don't grant the eco-warrior community veto power over every new idea that pops up and I'm not alone in this.

Aviation is a small sliver of the CO2 we as humans generate, some sense of scale and proportion are needed.

But hey if others want to guilt themselves out of the joys of air travel, they are free to do so.
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crimsonchin
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Tue Nov 19, 2019 5:43 pm

If QF rejects the OEM’s approval, it certainly won’t be because of the pricing imo, but because QF has probably realised the route isn’t viable. Airbus and Boeing would definitely love to have their plane flying this route, if only for bragging rights, so they’ll be giving QF an amazing deal (even if it’s not to the extent of Ryanair bending Boeing over)
 
Heinkel
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:04 pm

JannEejit wrote:
So in summary: Qantas wants the planes for less, the crews to take a pay cut and the passengers to pay more ?


No surprise. This is typical Aussie business conduct.

Been there, seen that.
Last edited by Heinkel on Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
VV
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:11 pm

Gemuser wrote:
VV wrote:
...

Basically Qantas wants a price discount for all aircraft of the whole fleet when their business case does not work only for two routes.

IF you read the article it is not just about $$$.
Mr La Spina said Qantas had asked the manufacturers to not just consider price, but also guarantees and conditions to deal with "what if" scenarios.


There could be some interesting new items in airline/OEM negotiarions.

Gemuser


Okay, let me word it differently.

They want a commercial concession on the whole fleet when there are only two routes that have issues.

I know, it is normal to squeeze the aircraft manufacturer, but at this point I think Boeing should tell them to order A350 in the near term.

This is basically what will happen.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:51 pm

I suppose both humans and machines are not yet ready for 19+IRROPS missions.

Two set crew doing 20-24hrs is really pushing limits. The third set wouldn't be any better because they still will be in the tube, not a true rest.

Probably QF can try used 77L frames with 3xAux tanks, lightweight interior materials.and any other weight-saving measures.
 
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qf789
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:06 am

Third PS research flight will be on 16 December JFK-SYD

https://twitter.com/airlineroute/status ... 40224?s=21
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tealnz
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Re: Qantas plans 3 Project Sunrise research flights in Q4 2019 using 787-9's, final decision on PS by end of 2019

Wed Nov 20, 2019 1:11 am

Revelation wrote:
cpd wrote:
What does he do if both the manufacturers say no? This would be quite a fine way for such a big thing to end.

Someone floated the theory earlier that Joyce does want it to end, since he knows it really isn't a viable plan.

Maybe he wants to end it and is doing so by blaming the vendors.

APYu wrote:
Theres a healthy pipeline for the A350, Airbus don't need to bend over for a relatively small order which could turn out to be a pain in the backside

I think that it's a prestige project that both vendors would like to win, but there's a limit to how far they will go to get the order.

If I were a vendor I'd ask for AJ's last and best offer and then either accept or walk away.

I wouldn't tie up my sales and engineering resources any longer since he's now rejected their LFO.

I think there's some benefit to being the first one to walk away from the deal if in reality it is QF/AJ that is being unreasonable.

Of course there are only so many customers out there so it'd have to be done tactfully, but in the end it's irresponsible to tie up sales and engineering resources to bid on a project that is not realistically going to produce an order.

TFA says:

"We have to get the premium from our customers … we have to get in the position where the manufacturers contribute their contribution, we have to get the regulator on side and we have to get the pilots on side," Mr Joyce said.

"I have no problem… in saying 'we gave it a good try but it didn’t work'."

Seems he is positioning himself for it to all fall apart.

He's already extended the circle of blame to cover customers, manufacturers, regulators and pilots.

We see the manufacturers aren't providing their "contribution" and I really wonder why pilots and cabin crew would feel the need to contribute anything at all.

If anything pilots and cabin crew should be asking for more pay/rest rather than less.


I can't see why so many otherwise savvy a.netters are in denial on ULH and Sunrise. The market isn't asking for ULH? Tell that to ME3, QF, NZ. The economics won't work? Look at the results Joyce is getting with PER-LHR. But SYD-LHR is a stretch too far? Joyce says both OEMs are offering viable payload to London and full payload (full pax?) from New York. The numbers don't add up? You're telling me no airline ever negotiates again after BAFO?? Customers won't pay a premium? Look at PER-LHR again. Regulators need to sign off? Obviously. Pilots? Ditto.

If Airbus/Boeing thought AJ was jerking them round I think we'd know about it. We are not seeing any evidence of it.

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