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SQ32
Posts: 56
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2018 2:18 pm

Re: "Indonesian government to force Indonesian airlines to switch to Boeing"

Sat Aug 24, 2019 5:56 am

Many South East Asia nations are pro China, with Cambodia the foremost China all weather friend. China can get South East Asia nation to endorse C919.

In addition, being the world biggest archipelago, Indonesia aviation is predominantly domestic.

Indonesia does not really need 737 or A320 except for a minority of international routes.

C919 will be a disruptive force against Airbus and Boeing.
 
jupiter2
Posts: 1667
Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2001 11:30 am

Re: "Indonesian government to force Indonesian airlines to switch to Boeing"

Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:12 am

SQ32 wrote:
Many South East Asia nations are pro China, with Cambodia the foremost China all weather friend. China can get South East Asia nation to endorse C919.

In addition, being the world biggest archipelago, Indonesia aviation is predominantly domestic.

Indonesia does not really need 737 or A320 except for a minority of international routes.

C919 will be a disruptive force against Airbus and Boeing.


Pick about the only country in South East Asia which doesn't have political "concerns" with China, in particular the creation of bases on islands and reefs in South China Sea, which these other nations also lay claim to.

The C919 will not make headway into most of these countries, the exceptions maybe being Cambodia and Laos. This dispute will most likely blow over and it will be business as usual, with a few sweeteners thrown in by the bullshit castle, or whatever they call it now.
 
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SQ32
Posts: 56
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2018 2:18 pm

Re: "Indonesian government to force Indonesian airlines to switch to Boeing"

Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:38 am

When EU harms the commercial interest and Boeing Max bad engineering now widely recognized, C919 stands out as a viable choice.

China aviation safety is apparent when ARJ21 has no fatalities since her release 3 years ago.

jupiter2 wrote:
SQ32 wrote:
Many South East Asia nations are pro China, with Cambodia the foremost China all weather friend. China can get South East Asia nation to endorse C919.

In addition, being the world biggest archipelago, Indonesia aviation is predominantly domestic.

Indonesia does not really need 737 or A320 except for a minority of international routes.

C919 will be a disruptive force against Airbus and Boeing.


Pick about the only country in South East Asia which doesn't have political "concerns" with China, in particular the creation of bases on islands and reefs in South China Sea, which these other nations also lay claim to.

The C919 will not make headway into most of these countries, the exceptions maybe being Cambodia and Laos. This dispute will most likely blow over and it will be business as usual, with a few sweeteners thrown in by the bullshit castle, or whatever they call it now.
 
peterinlisbon
Posts: 1518
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:37 am

Re: "Indonesian government to force Indonesian airlines to switch to Boeing"

Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:09 am

Great idea: let's get our own airlines to lose their deposits and go to the back of the queue for new aircraft orders. They'll lose fleet commonality, have to retrain all their pilots and have mixed fleets that cost more to maintain. Then they can go to Boeing and tell them "our government said we have to buy all of our planes from you" so they won't get any kind of special deal. And then they'll have to hope that their government doesn't have any falling outs with Mr Trump within the next few years.
 
jupiter2
Posts: 1667
Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2001 11:30 am

Re: "Indonesian government to force Indonesian airlines to switch to Boeing"

Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:02 pm

SQ32 wrote:
When EU harms the commercial interest and Boeing Max bad engineering now widely recognized, C919 stands out as a viable choice.

China aviation safety is apparent when ARJ21 has no fatalities since her release 3 years ago.

jupiter2 wrote:
SQ32 wrote:
Many South East Asia nations are pro China, with Cambodia the foremost China all weather friend. China can get South East Asia nation to endorse C919.

In addition, being the world biggest archipelago, Indonesia aviation is predominantly domestic.

Indonesia does not really need 737 or A320 except for a minority of international routes.

C919 will be a disruptive force against Airbus and Boeing.


Pick about the only country in South East Asia which doesn't have political "concerns" with China, in particular the creation of bases on islands and reefs in South China Sea, which these other nations also lay claim to.

The C919 will not make headway into most of these countries, the exceptions maybe being Cambodia and Laos. This dispute will most likely blow over and it will be business as usual, with a few sweeteners thrown in by the bullshit castle, or whatever they call it now.


Keep dreaming
 
Stickpusher
Posts: 59
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2016 6:54 pm

Re: "Indonesian government to force Indonesian airlines to switch to Boeing"

Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:17 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
I think this is just a negotiating tactic; hopefully Europe won’t bow to it, palm oil production is very damaging to the environment.


:thumbsup:

With the recent moves to kick Bolsonaro out of his stupor and do something about the Amazon fires it looks like Europe is using economic leverage to change the world in ways that might eventually improve it. It would be sad that we're concerning ourselves with economic blowback over concerns about the place where we all live. It's the environmental equivalent of rummaging in the overheads while the plane burns, looking for our "precious" that we can't afford to lose, like a large plane order vs eventual climate catastrophe.

Thanks to Thatcher (Prime Minister and Chemistry graduate) understanding the science, coupled with her ability to persuade Reagan, that unlikely couple between them had a vast effect on the production of CFCs that were harming the ozone layer. When the political will is there and the vested interests are shouldered aside, we can be a remarkable species.

It really needs other countries and blocs to also fold their arms and refuse to be the alternative market for palm oil for this to have real effect. If the US already uses alternatives to a greater extent it'd be easy to set a united front. Well, I can hope...

Question for Indonesian carriers is whether they can expect this kind of government interference in their own commercial decisions going forward. Rather like the present incumbent in the WH ordering companies out of China, the concern is not the order itself so much as the precedent it sets if it goes unchallenged. If the Indonesian government can and would "make life very difficult" for Indonesian carriers that don't toe the line, they might still comply. I'm not sure whether or not Indonesia has decent checks and balances for that kind of overreach.
 
trent768
Posts: 122
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 5:32 pm

Re: "Indonesian government to force Indonesian airlines to switch to Boeing"

Sat Aug 24, 2019 5:19 pm

SQ32 wrote:
Many South East Asia nations are pro China, with Cambodia the foremost China all weather friend. China can get South East Asia nation to endorse C919.

In addition, being the world biggest archipelago, Indonesia aviation is predominantly domestic.

Indonesia does not really need 737 or A320 except for a minority of international routes.

C919 will be a disruptive force against Airbus and Boeing.

There's no way in heck that any Indonesian carrier would order non-Western aircraft anymore, especially Chinese aircraft due to the MA60 fiasco. Their product image of being "cheap, disposable, and unreliable" are really hard to come by. Even Russia will have a hard time selling their stuff after the SSJ accident years ago.
 
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Veigar
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Re: "Indonesian government to force Indonesian airlines to switch to Boeing"

Sat Aug 24, 2019 5:53 pm

So when will we see aircraft orders being cancelled (if they will)?
 
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sergegva
Posts: 210
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Re: "Indonesian government to force Indonesian airlines to switch to Boeing"

Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:16 pm

SQ32 wrote:
China aviation safety is apparent when ARJ21 has no fatalities since her release 3 years ago.


I'm afraid 12 aircraft in rather limited service is not yet enough to make any claims in terms of safety
 
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PacoMartin
Posts: 371
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Re: "Indonesian government to force Indonesian airlines to switch to Boeing"

Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:54 pm

FredrikHAD wrote:
Would Airbus lose money if the orders are cancelled or are they protected by the contracts? Perhaps Indonesia is giving Airbus a profit by cancelling, quite counter productive if so.


It seems like an empty threat. Lion Air could cancel their 113 A320neos, and 65 A321neos and I am sure that Airbus could sell them for more money even without contract penalties. Lion Air can't go to war with Boeing and Airbus at the same time.

Garuda has 14 A330-900 neos on order (out of 82 total for all Asia Pacific) which would hurt far more, but not enough to make Airbus executives quake. The Airbus database does not show any A330-900s ordered by Lion Air
 
T4thH
Posts: 389
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:17 pm

Re: "Indonesian government to force Indonesian airlines to switch to Boeing"

Sun Aug 25, 2019 12:51 am

sergegva wrote:
SQ32 wrote:
China aviation safety is apparent when ARJ21 has no fatalities since her release 3 years ago.


I'm afraid 12 aircraft in rather limited service is not yet enough to make any claims in terms of safety


Perhaps you are all aware, A320 family or B737 family jets are regular flying 10 to 15 h per day, in some cases even around regular 17 h per day? The same for others, like the A220, the E-jets e.g.
In Oct-2018, just 6 ARJ21 were on regular duty; they were even flying 30 h....per month (source is flight global, behind a paywall).
This is even more worse than the SSJ100.
 
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afterburner
Posts: 1353
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Re: "Indonesian government to force Indonesian airlines to switch to Boeing"

Sun Aug 25, 2019 3:32 am

PacoMartin wrote:
The Airbus database does not show any A330-900s ordered by Lion Air

Because the aircraft were ordered by a leasing company. Lion air has received its first A330neo and now the aircraft is flying hajj pilgrims back home to some African countries from Saudi Arabia.
https://samchui.com/2019/07/20/lion-air ... WH_X-gzaCg
 
bennett123
Posts: 8943
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: "Indonesian government to force Indonesian airlines to switch to Boeing"

Sun Aug 25, 2019 6:11 am

If they cancelled 200 A320NEO today, when would they get replacement B737MAX?.

Typical politician thinking.
 
Sokes
Posts: 239
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Re: "Indonesian government to force Indonesian airlines to switch to Boeing"

Sun Aug 25, 2019 6:23 am

India is food oil deficient. Poor people use a lot of palm oil. Oil palms need rain most of the year. Indian monsoon is not suited to this crop. It has to be imported.

"On a per hectare basis, oil palm trees are 6-10 times more efficient at producing oil than temperate oilseed crops such as rapeseed, soybean, olive and sunflower.
The trees also have a productive lifetime of around 30 years. Soil in oil palm plantations is rich in organic content and is less disrupted compared to temperate, annual oil crops where highly destructive annual ploughing of the soil is required."
http://theconversation.com/palm-oil-sco ... crop-42165

Should people from rich countries with incredible high resource consumption tell poor people that they mustn't destroy the environment?

I once read that to transport by ship a container from China to Hamburg is as costly as the railway charge to get it from Hamburg to South Germany.

To come to topic:
In the first six months 2019 the US exported 4,4 billion $ and imported 9,9 billion$ to/ from Indonesia.
https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5600.html

If the American government applied pressure on the Indonesian government to buy more American products, would the Indonesian government say:
"We want to buy Boeing now because the American ambassador told us to."?
I'm not saying that's happening. I just mean to say one can't always take at face value what is told in diplomacy.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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flee
Posts: 985
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Re: "Indonesian government to force Indonesian airlines to switch to Boeing"

Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:06 am

Instead of banning imports, the Indonesians can engage in counter trade and negotiate for part of the payment for the imports to be made in palm oil. As palm oil has a market value, it would be quite easy to place an amount to be paid in palm oil.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
Posts: 1842
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Re: "Indonesian government to force Indonesian airlines to switch to Boeing"

Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:34 am

flee wrote:
Instead of banning imports, the Indonesians can engage in counter trade and negotiate for part of the payment for the imports to be made in palm oil. As palm oil has a market value, it would be quite easy to place an amount to be paid in palm oil.


The EU simply don't want imports of palm oil, so a barter of palm oil will not work.

Unfortunately despite all the effort to make palm oil sustainable for the environment, the EU still clings to outmoded ideas about palm oil production. Ironically, for all the talk about how palm oil production is causing abject deforestation, it is the fires of the Amazon that's actually causing the biggest deforestation - and why is it happening? Because they want to plant soybeans. Has the EU ever talked about limiting soybean imports? Hardly, even if their own study showed that based on EU consumption, soybeans contributed to the majority of deforestation!

https://ec.europa.eu/environment/forest ... impact.pdf
I FLY KLM+ALASKA+QATAR+MALAYSIA+AIRASIA+MALINDO
 
tigerzhong13
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:42 pm

Re: "Indonesian government to force Indonesian airlines to switch to Boeing"

Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:53 am

What happens if ANOTHER fatal accident of 737 happens there? :smile:
 
mandala499
Posts: 6589
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

Re: "Indonesian government to force Indonesian airlines to switch to Boeing"

Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:47 am

I laughed when I saw this on the news...

With the Max still being grounded, this "request" made by the minister to the airlines is nothing short of comical, and cringeworthy material.

Oh yeah, the minister is rumoured to be replaced at the president's second inauguration...

Lion is "following" the minister's request so as to not cause controversy within Indonesian politics as Rusdi Kirana is close to the government, and any "refusal to obey" will be exploited by his political enemies to attack him.

Airlines are just waiting for the current cabinet with the current set of known jokers to be replaced (thankfully some of the key jokers are going to go). The airlines are screaming due to the low ticket price caps set by the government "to prevent inflation"... And yeah, several ministers have insisted that the ticket price caps be lowered still, claiming that Indonesian airlines are too cost inefficient... (4.5US cents per available seat kilometer isn't bad, this was early 2018 for most airlines except for Garuda).

Most of us here in Indonesia are certain the certain minister asking the airlines to not buy Airbus, will be replaced soon, and that the call was just a bluff that even junior analysts in the EU can see.

Airbus cooperation with Indonesian Aerospace is too important to set aside to get the boycott going... If everyone can still get "Airbuses assembled in Indonesia", then we can just go and get Airbuses assembled in Mobile or Tianjin... Or even better, get "Airbus Canada" aircraft... LOL

Seriously guys... this... ridiculous!
Not gonna happen!
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
bob75013
Posts: 878
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: "Indonesian government to force Indonesian airlines to switch to Boeing"

Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:04 am

tigerzhong13 wrote:
What happens if ANOTHER fatal accident of 737 happens there? :smile:


You you mean MAXs? Nothing would happen since they're not flying.
 
WorldFlier
Posts: 317
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2015 2:10 pm

Re: "Indonesian government to force Indonesian airlines to switch to Boeing"

Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:31 pm

SQ32 wrote:
China aviation safety is apparent when ARJ21 has no fatalities since her release 3 years ago.


That's because the all of the ARJ21s have flown a few thousand hours since then. I am sure even Yugos made it to 5,000 miles before their first failure...

"In October 2018, six aircraft were in service with an average monthly utilisation rate of around 30 hours" - 1 HOUR PER DAY.

Citation: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... 19-452053/

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