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AAlaxfan
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DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:12 am

Didn't see this anywhere.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/d ... spartandhp
At least the flight wasn't cancelled and no one was involuntarily bumped.
Grumpy. Not a dwarf, not an attitude. It's a lifestyle.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:25 am

Was supposed to leave at 15:30 on Wednesday, left at 09:20 on Thursday; that's 18 hours, not 22 hours.

Regardless, ouch... Mechanical, then weather, then crew scheduling; the holes in the cheese did line up on this one.

Mechanical issues are often impossible to predict when they'll be solved; however, weather and crew scheduling can usually be predicted hours in advance with very reasonable accuracy. Sounds like DL should have been more straight forward when communicating with the pax.
 
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enilria
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Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:45 am

WayexTDI wrote:
Was supposed to leave at 15:30 on Wednesday, left at 09:20 on Thursday; that's 18 hours, not 22 hours.

Regardless, ouch... Mechanical, then weather, then crew scheduling; the holes in the cheese did line up on this one.

Mechanical issues are often impossible to predict when they'll be solved; however, weather and crew scheduling can usually be predicted hours in advance with very reasonable accuracy. Sounds like DL should have been more straight forward when communicating with the pax.

Pretty sure if the flight leaves the following day it counts as cancelled.
 
IPFreely
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Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:48 am

The video (and audio) is pretty entertaining -- see below. But I am not sure why this is newsworthy, it happens pretty much every day.

https://twitter.com/EmmaSlaterDance/sta ... 1902952448
 
kimimm19
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Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:49 am

In my experience, airlines are never straightforward with passengers because they are trying to go into PR mode.

In reality, I think most if not all pax would just like the truth.
 
LHUSA
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Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:51 am

Today’s 7:15pm JFK-LAX is also delayed until 9:30am tomorrow
 
dmstorm22
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Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:51 am

enilria wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Was supposed to leave at 15:30 on Wednesday, left at 09:20 on Thursday; that's 18 hours, not 22 hours.

Regardless, ouch... Mechanical, then weather, then crew scheduling; the holes in the cheese did line up on this one.

Mechanical issues are often impossible to predict when they'll be solved; however, weather and crew scheduling can usually be predicted hours in advance with very reasonable accuracy. Sounds like DL should have been more straight forward when communicating with the pax.

Pretty sure if the flight leaves the following day it counts as cancelled.


It's gotta be a # of hours threshold I image??

Otherwise a 10pm flight delayed to 1am would count?
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:59 am

How long is Delta going to keep this practice up? They are going to be known as the airline that won't cancel a flight no matter how many hours in order to avoid accommodating passengers at hotels and giving compensation.

Delta used to be better than this. I was once on a delayed CVG-MCO flight for about two hours because the inbound aircraft was delayed due to weather in Miami. The gate agents gave everyone on the flight a $100 voucher and were apologetic. And that was only a two hour delay. Granted there are no finer folks at Delta than the CVG employees so maybe that was a factor. CVG never disappointed.
 
IPFreely
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Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 3:04 am

I have limited sympathy for passengers who booked this flight. Looking at DL 975, it was 1 1/2 hours late Sunday, 3 1/2 hours late Monday, 18 hours late Wednesday, and 7 1/2 hours late (and counting) today. In a case like this, past results are a pretty good indicator of future performance.
 
whisperjet727
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Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 3:04 am

My friend is on that Sam flight today. Aug22. She said it’s only delayed 8 hours. And waiting for an update.
 
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Pudelhund
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Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 3:09 am

How could one flight be delayed so massively so frequently?
 
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Pellegrine
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Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 3:10 am

IPFreely wrote:
I have limited sympathy for passengers who booked this flight. Looking at DL 975, it was 1 1/2 hours late Sunday, 3 1/2 hours late Monday, 18 hours late Wednesday, and 7 1/2 hours late (and counting) today. In a case like this, past results are a pretty good indicator of future performance.


Do you actually think most passengers check a flight's on-time performance?
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
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gatibosgru
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Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 3:10 am

IPFreely wrote:
I have limited sympathy for passengers who booked this flight. Looking at DL 975, it was 1 1/2 hours late Sunday, 3 1/2 hours late Monday, 18 hours late Wednesday, and 7 1/2 hours late (and counting) today. In a case like this, past results are a pretty good indicator of future performance.


You have "limited" sympathy for passengers stuck with an 18 hour delay, as if it is their job to track the performance of said route? Sounds biased to me.
@DadCelo
 
HPAEAA
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Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 3:13 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
How long is Delta going to keep this practice up? They are going to be known as the airline that won't cancel a flight no matter how many hours in order to avoid accommodating passengers at hotels and giving compensation.

Delta used to be better than this. I was once on a delayed CVG-MCO flight for about two hours because the inbound aircraft was delayed due to weather in Miami. The gate agents gave everyone on the flight a $100 voucher and were apologetic. And that was only a two hour delay. Granted there are no finer folks at Delta than the CVG employees so maybe that was a factor. CVG never disappointed.

If it was weather, they wouldn’t have gotten accommodations anyway... I actually appreciate the doggedness of avoiding cancellations, after numerous experiences on other domestic carriers which either told me it was going to be days to get rerouted after a weather event or being required to reroute through hubs way out of the way, delays aren’t ideal, but at least I have a flight at a time in the next 12 hours I can catch. DL opens up the ability to be rebooked once a flight gets delayed so what’s the harm here compared to the flight getting axed completely?
1.4mm and counting...
 
IPFreely
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Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 3:33 am

Pellegrine wrote:
Do you actually think most passengers check a flight's on-time performance?


It depends if they personally booked their flight and how they did it. Many booking engines (except airline websites) that list flights will include small print noting frequently delayed flights. It's not hard information to find.

If you want to feel sorry for someone, watch the video. I do feel sorry for the employee sent to get on the PA and tell a planeful of stranded passengers that they'll get nothing and like it. He's just the messenger and it looks like he's been left to fend for himself by people making the decisions.
 
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intotheair
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Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 3:35 am

IPFreely wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:
Do you actually think most passengers check a flight's on-time performance?


It depends if they personally booked their flight and how they did it. Many booking engines (except airline websites) that list flights will include small print noting frequently delayed flights. It's not hard information to find.

If you want to feel sorry for someone, watch the video. I do feel sorry for the employee sent to get on the PA and tell a planeful of stranded passengers that they'll get nothing and like it. He's just the messenger and it looks like he's been left to fend for himself by people making the decisions.


"They bought their tickets. They KNEW what they were getting into!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn0WdJx-Wkw

:roll:
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cskok8
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Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 3:36 am

Flights are never delayed, they are "retimed"
 
alasizon
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Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 3:47 am

IPFreely wrote:
I have limited sympathy for passengers who booked this flight. Looking at DL 975, it was 1 1/2 hours late Sunday, 3 1/2 hours late Monday, 18 hours late Wednesday, and 7 1/2 hours late (and counting) today. In a case like this, past results are a pretty good indicator of future performance.


So those are the past four days. How many people actually book within that four day window?

Going off FlightStats data over the past two months it has been on-time 80% of the time. Given it is a NYC departure, that is pretty good.
Manager on Duty & Tower Planner
 
cschleic
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Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 3:53 am

gatibosgru wrote:
IPFreely wrote:
I have limited sympathy for passengers who booked this flight. Looking at DL 975, it was 1 1/2 hours late Sunday, 3 1/2 hours late Monday, 18 hours late Wednesday, and 7 1/2 hours late (and counting) today. In a case like this, past results are a pretty good indicator of future performance.


You have "limited" sympathy for passengers stuck with an 18 hour delay, as if it is their job to track the performance of said route? Sounds biased to me.


Many people are booking their flights weeks and months ahead of time. Plus flight numbers change all the time.
 
NW
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Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 4:23 am

HPAEAA wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
How long is Delta going to keep this practice up? They are going to be known as the airline that won't cancel a flight no matter how many hours in order to avoid accommodating passengers at hotels and giving compensation.

Delta used to be better than this. I was once on a delayed CVG-MCO flight for about two hours because the inbound aircraft was delayed due to weather in Miami. The gate agents gave everyone on the flight a $100 voucher and were apologetic. And that was only a two hour delay. Granted there are no finer folks at Delta than the CVG employees so maybe that was a factor. CVG never disappointed.

If it was weather, they wouldn’t have gotten accommodations anyway... I actually appreciate the doggedness of avoiding cancellations, after numerous experiences on other domestic carriers which either told me it was going to be days to get rerouted after a weather event or being required to reroute through hubs way out of the way, delays aren’t ideal, but at least I have a flight at a time in the next 12 hours I can catch. DL opens up the ability to be rebooked once a flight gets delayed so what’s the harm here compared to the flight getting axed completely?


Delta policy calls for hotels to be given in the situation at JFK. If a crew times out for ANY reason, including weather, it's automatically considered a controllable incident and hotels are provided.
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 4:36 am

enilria wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Was supposed to leave at 15:30 on Wednesday, left at 09:20 on Thursday; that's 18 hours, not 22 hours.

Regardless, ouch... Mechanical, then weather, then crew scheduling; the holes in the cheese did line up on this one.

Mechanical issues are often impossible to predict when they'll be solved; however, weather and crew scheduling can usually be predicted hours in advance with very reasonable accuracy. Sounds like DL should have been more straight forward when communicating with the pax.

Pretty sure if the flight leaves the following day it counts as cancelled.

Nope...
Counts as a completion for DOT purposes.
 
HPAEAA
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Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 4:37 am

NW wrote:
HPAEAA wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
How long is Delta going to keep this practice up? They are going to be known as the airline that won't cancel a flight no matter how many hours in order to avoid accommodating passengers at hotels and giving compensation.

Delta used to be better than this. I was once on a delayed CVG-MCO flight for about two hours because the inbound aircraft was delayed due to weather in Miami. The gate agents gave everyone on the flight a $100 voucher and were apologetic. And that was only a two hour delay. Granted there are no finer folks at Delta than the CVG employees so maybe that was a factor. CVG never disappointed.

If it was weather, they wouldn’t have gotten accommodations anyway... I actually appreciate the doggedness of avoiding cancellations, after numerous experiences on other domestic carriers which either told me it was going to be days to get rerouted after a weather event or being required to reroute through hubs way out of the way, delays aren’t ideal, but at least I have a flight at a time in the next 12 hours I can catch. DL opens up the ability to be rebooked once a flight gets delayed so what’s the harm here compared to the flight getting axed completely?


Delta policy calls for hotels to be given in the situation at JFK. If a crews times out for ANY reason, including weather, it's automatically considered a controllable incident and hotels are provided.

Interesting & good to know, but that hasn’t been my experience though at JFK.. I had a 16 hour delay on my JFK-SEA flight due to weather about a month ago and was offered nothing other than 10k medallion miles (and that included a 4 hour sight seeing tour of JFK on the plane)
1.4mm and counting...
 
zippy
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Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 4:45 am

Pellegrine wrote:
Do you actually think most passengers check a flight's on-time performance?


Maybe not, but Delta features the information prominently when you're booking tickets on the mobile app (% on time, % + 30 minutes, % + 60 minutes, cancellations). Their desktop site is acting up for me, but doesn't appear to show the on-time info.
 
zippy
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Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 4:51 am

HPAEAA wrote:
Interesting & good to know, but that hasn’t been my experience though at JFK.. I had a 16 hour delay on my JFK-SEA flight due to weather about a month ago and was offered nothing other than 10k medallion miles (and that included a 4 hour sight seeing tour of JFK on the plane)


When my Delta flight JFK-SFO was delayed due to the windstorms at SFO, the gate staff were all quite accommodating and got me rebooked on the next SFO bound flight. Plenty of folks were doing the same thing and the only thing left was a middle seat so I just rebooked on a late morning flight the following day and went into Manhattan for the evening. Sure, I did a ton of walking between T2/T4 but otherwise it wasn't a terrible experience. I'm pretty sure both the delayed flights took off eventually that same day.

Getting stuck on the plane would be terrible, but an overnight delay at JFK? There are much, much worse things.
 
HPAEAA
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Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:01 am

zippy wrote:
Getting stuck on the plane would be terrible, but an overnight delay at JFK? There are much, much worse things.

Yeah, and there was a screaming baby the row behind me for half of the tour... sadly i was happy when the kid found joy running in the aisle and punching me in the arm after a while...

I don’t disagree- I appreciated having a flight & went home for the night, guy next to me slept in T4 though and my friend flying out of EWR to SEA had a heck of a time getting any flight into SEA... I didn’t intend for my comment to be a criticism other than if the DL policy (as another poster suggested) is to provide hotels when there are crew timeout issues regardless of cause, it’s not consistently applied at JFK in my experience.
1.4mm and counting...
 
maint123
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Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:20 am

Normal people in usa seem to have very few rights in front of authority figures. I feel sad for Americans.
 
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Pellegrine
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Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:22 am

IPFreely wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:
Do you actually think most passengers check a flight's on-time performance?


It depends if they personally booked their flight and how they did it. Many booking engines (except airline websites) that list flights will include small print noting frequently delayed flights. It's not hard information to find.

If you want to feel sorry for someone, watch the video. I do feel sorry for the employee sent to get on the PA and tell a planeful of stranded passengers that they'll get nothing and like it. He's just the messenger and it looks like he's been left to fend for himself by people making the decisions.


I'm not feeling that. I feel sorry for any pax waiting in uncomfortable airport chairs for 22 hours. Or the floor. Or the plane to nowhere. I feel sorry for the employee a bit, but that's their job at the end of the day. Disappointing people is part of CS.

As for BOOKINGS most people book by price, then schedule for business/wealthier travelers. I don't think people consider on-time performance at all unless it is severely bad and they are business/high-value travelers.
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
eielef
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Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:36 am

maint123 wrote:
Normal people in usa seem to have very few rights in front of authority figures. I feel sad for Americans.

Is a worldwide phenomena.
Now, passengers are hostages of airlines. Maybe because this non-interference of the state on their policies has made us completely defenseless of the airlines. Similar goes, for example, for phone and internet providers. They call you on the phone, explain you a lot of things very quickly, and sort of force you to accept. Then, the small print, oh,, well, then you are fried.

There are, at least, many flights between JFK and LAX.
DL975 is a B763 aircraft, so ~211 seats. DL975 has a scheduled departure time of 15:30-18:50 (LT).
The following flights left to LAX, nonstop, in the next hours:
B61323 at 16:00
DL428 at 16:50
AA306 at 17:00
B61523 at 17:25
QF12 at 18:10 (i doubt it is for sale though)
DL447 at 18:15
AA302 at 18:30
DL427 at 19:15
B61623 at 19:30
AA300 at 20:00
AS229 at 20:15
AA185 at 20:45
B61723 at 21:29
AA56 at 21:45

14 flights in a 6 hours window. Sure, being 6 hours late is a pain, landing at LAX at 01:00 (on AA56) is not the best.
But is much better than spending the whole night in the airport as an animal (because they were treated like animals).

Why didn't DL put them on flights both of DL (DL428, DL427 and DL447) as well of those flights from Jetblue, American or Alaska? 211 passengers (imagining a LF of 100%), is about 15 people on each flight. DL could have sent 15 people in each flight, the first would have arrived with some 20 minutes delay, the last with about 6 hours. It sound normal, not the best but at least not so miserable as it was for them .
Plus there are a ton of solutions, like getting a bus and driving, say, 30, to Newark and giving them other options, with UA for instance.
Also, flights that make a connection, for instance in ORD, DEN or PHX. That route, NYC-LAX should be among the busiest and best served in the world.

Using the small print, airlines are able to be as miserable as they can be, and give you as a compensation a few miles to keep your mouth shut. Remember: miles are like Monopoly money. They cost the airline nothing.

I'm scared many of us are beginning to think the airline was right, when it is clearly not. Weather, maintenance, crew scheduling, all of that: who controls it? How do you know is a legit reason of the airline, to avoid having to pay hotels for everyone?
I've seen cases when flight is delayed 90 minutes (no compensation). Then people is asked to board the plane, left there over 90 minutes, with very hot temperatures, and then told: nop, the plane is not fixed yet. Lets go back to the terminal while we get another plane. Another 90 minutes go by. Then you board the same old hot plane for 90 minutes. And so goes forever. Never a compensation, never an apology, never nothing.

I'd contact each passenger of DL975 and ask them, each of them to complain to the DOT and demand a fair apology, compensation, and even a signed letter of the CEO of DL saying: we won't do it again.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:55 am

DL.com shows at least two more overnight "delays" tonight:

#975 (again) - this time 19 hours late at a scheduled 10:30 departure on the 23rd
#427 - 14:35 late, also now departing at 10:30 on the 23rd

I feel bad for those hung out to dry at the airport overnight. The memories made aren't worth it.
 
dampfnudel
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Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:30 am

That’s terrible. Up until now, the longest delay I’ve ever experienced was about 3 hours with DL (JFK-FRA).
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grbauc
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Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:05 am

IPFreely
"The video (and audio) is pretty entertaining -- see below. But I am not sure why this is newsworthy, it happens pretty much every day.

https://twitter.com/EmmaSlaterDance/sta ... 1902952448"

Outrage and everyone wants there moment of time in the my turn look what happen to me moment. Thank the news for this and many High speed chases and copy cat killers in part unfortunately.

kimimm19
"In my experience, airlines are never straightforward with passengers because they are trying to go into PR mode.

In reality, I think most if not all pax would just like the truth."


I so agree with you.
 
flybry
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Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:13 am

IPFreely wrote:
I have limited sympathy for passengers who booked this flight. Looking at DL 975, it was 1 1/2 hours late Sunday, 3 1/2 hours late Monday, 18 hours late Wednesday, and 7 1/2 hours late (and counting) today. In a case like this, past results are a pretty good indicator of future performance.


So the next time you’re delayed as a passenger for 18+ hours, let’s see how you feel.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:42 am

It is a disturbing trend (B6 is doing it now too) to get a completion factor metric.

As someone flying 15 years, the negative effects of cancelling and rebooking are better than the negative effects of making people wait 22 hrs in the airport.

The DOT, needs to break out a new category titled “excessive delays towards completion factor “ That will stop this garbage once and for all.

The weather defense from the airline insulates them from providing a hotel. This is abused by airlines all the time and always has been. For example, I was flying an Eagle flight RDU to LGA. Spoiler fault. Plane was grounded. ATC was running delays to LGA for wx...flight was cancelled for wx...no hotels for pax
 
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Polot
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Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:53 am

zippy wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:
Do you actually think most passengers check a flight's on-time performance?


Maybe not, but Delta features the information prominently when you're booking tickets on the mobile app (% on time, % + 30 minutes, % + 60 minutes, cancellations). Their desktop site is acting up for me, but doesn't appear to show the on-time info.

Airlines game those systems all the time by changing flight numbers, making minor adjustments to flight schedule (eg shifting whole flight up or back 15 minutes), etc so that previous data is invalid and not considered in the on time calculation when it starts to creep too low.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:23 am

This type of stuff isn't really all that uncommon. Delta has had a run of bad PR with delayed flights, on board riots, and airplanes cracking on arrival in the last week. Maybe some of the brilliance is starting to tarnish?
 
HPAEAA
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Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:33 am

eielef wrote:
Is a worldwide phenomena.
Now, passengers are hostages of airlines. Maybe because this non-interference of the state on their policies has made us completely defenseless of the airlines. Similar goes, for example, for phone and internet providers. They call you on the phone, explain you a lot of things very quickly, and sort of force you to accept. Then, the small print, oh,, well, then you are fried.

No offense, but I’m not sure what your advocating here, is it that we need government to step in and do something? If so, what? I empathize with some of your suggestions but I think your choosing a really bad example here to demonstrate your point. Overall a few thoughts:

1. We only have a 90 second clip, and no clear timeline of what happened when (timeline of mechanical issue, weather issue & crew timeout issue). Given the operating environment around this issue, I’m not sure it’s reasonable to point any fingers here.
2. JFK as a whole was impacted by a violent line of thunderstorms that moved through the area Wednesday evening disrupting all operations.
3. JFK is down a runway this summer due to construction, this has been widely publicized which is restricting the number of operations at the airport

eielef wrote:
There are, at least, many flights between JFK and LAX.
DL975 is a B763 aircraft, so ~211 seats. DL975 has a scheduled departure time of 15:30-18:50 (LT).
The following flights left to LAX, nonstop, in the next hours:

Updated with Actual departure times that day from FlightAware & threw in the UA schedule as well for kicks:
B61323 at 16:00 - delayed till 10:39 pm
DL428 at 16:50 - Delayed till 7:06 pm
AA306 at 17:00 - Delayed till 10:01 pm
B61523 at 17:25 - Delayed till 1:09 am
QF12 at 18:10 (i doubt it is for sale though) - Delayed till 11:52 pm
DL447 at 18:15 - delayed till 7:32 pm
AA302 at 18:30 - Delayed till 9:29 pm
DL427 at 19:15 - Delayed till 11:07 pm
B61623 at 19:300 - Delayed till 11:18 pm
AA300 at 20:00 - Delayed till 9:54 pm
AS229 at 20:15 - delayed till 9:22 pm
AA185 at 20:45 - Delayed till 9:37 pm
B61723 at 21:29 - delayed till 10:01 pm
AA56 at 21:45 - delayed till 11:52 pm
From EWR:
UA751 at 16:00 - Delayed till 6:31 pm- full
UA1600 at 16:59 - Delayed till 6:40 pm - full
UA275 at 18:00 - delayed till 7:25 pm - full
UA1871 at 19:00 - delayed till 10:41 pm - 22 open seats
UA628 at 20:00 - delayed till 8:44 pm - 1 open seat

eielef wrote:
14 flights in a 6 hours window. Sure, being 6 hours late is a pain, landing at LAX at 01:00 (on AA56) is not the best.
But is much better than spending the whole night in the airport as an animal (because they were treated like animals).

Why didn't DL put them on flights both of DL (DL428, DL427 and DL447) as well of those flights from Jetblue, American or Alaska? 211 passengers (imagining a LF of 100%), is about 15 people on each flight. DL could have sent 15 people in each flight, the first would have arrived with some 20 minutes delay, the last with about 6 hours. It sound normal, not the best but at least not so miserable as it was for them .
Plus there are a ton of solutions, like getting a bus and driving, say, 30, to Newark and giving them other options, with UA for instance.
Also, flights that make a connection, for instance in ORD, DEN or PHX. That route, NYC-LAX should be among the busiest and best served in the world.


In my experience, the DL app allows passengers to reroute themselves as soon as a delay is posted, if there were seats on other DL itineraries, passengers should have been able to move themselves or visit customer service to get rerouted. As captured above, there weren’t a lot of good options & likely flights to other destinations were also heavily delayed- it’s a game of where do I want to get stuck...

On a normal day, I agree, there are a lot of options between NYC & LAX, but during OSO events like this one, carriers aren’t giving away seats to OALs typically. They tend to hold them back since (in weather events especially), there are too many unknowns in their own operations (creeping delays, Cancellations, timeouts etc) and they want to protect their passengers first- it’s not like the plane was just late.

eielef wrote:
I'm scared many of us are beginning to think the airline was right, when it is clearly not. Weather, maintenance, crew scheduling, all of that: who controls it? How do you know is a legit reason of the airline, to avoid having to pay hotels for everyone?

So I don’t necessarily disagree with you there, an audit mechanism would be an interesting concept to think through... implementation would be challenging.

eielef wrote:
I'd contact each passenger of DL975 and ask them, each of them to complain to the DOT and demand a fair apology, compensation, and even a signed letter of the CEO of DL saying: we won't do it again.

What would this accomplish?

To sum up my thoughts, this was a c**p situation and I’ve been in multiple of these over the years. I feel bad for the passengers & it sucks, but atleast they had a seat on a plane to their destination the next morning. After living through this multiple times with each of the big 3, I can honestly appreciate have that seat vs being rescheduled 1 or 2 days later (in some cases), having to create my own adventure through bizarre routings and multimodal transportation, or arguing with an overworked agent until they’re able to find something.

The one suggestion I see here is that there should be better accountability for how airlines are coding delays - I don’t disagree, and I’ve had to argue that a few times over the years. But honestly how would you go about doing that?
Last edited by HPAEAA on Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
1.4mm and counting...
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 13927
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:37 am

jfklganyc wrote:
It is a disturbing trend (B6 is doing it now too) to get a completion factor metric.

As someone flying 15 years, the negative effects of cancelling and rebooking are better than the negative effects of making people wait 22 hrs in the airport.

The DOT, needs to break out a new category titled “excessive delays towards completion factor “ That will stop this garbage once and for all.

The weather defense from the airline insulates them from providing a hotel. This is abused by airlines all the time and always has been. For example, I was flying an Eagle flight RDU to LGA. Spoiler fault. Plane was grounded. ATC was running delays to LGA for wx...flight was cancelled for wx...no hotels for pax


The problem is that load factors are so high these days that canceling and rebooking comes with its own set of problems. My last cancellation (AA SLC-PHX on a Saturday morning with a 70ish percent load factor at check in) resulted in me being rebooked to arrive more than 24 hours later. Obviously crew and aircraft positioning are also potentially legitimate reasons to operate the flight even with a massive delay.

As a passenger, most of the time I’d rather have a guaranteed seat, even the next day, then play standby roulette for hours.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
kiowa
Posts: 564
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:57 pm

IPFreely wrote:
I have limited sympathy for passengers who booked this flight. Looking at DL 975, it was 1 1/2 hours late Sunday, 3 1/2 hours late Monday, 18 hours late Wednesday, and 7 1/2 hours late (and counting) today. In a case like this, past results are a pretty good indicator of future performance.


I doubt if very many people check stats before booking.
 
eielef
Posts: 703
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:07 am

Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:28 pm

HPAEAA wrote:
eielef wrote:
Is a worldwide phenomena.
Now, passengers are hostages of airlines. Maybe because this non-interference of the state on their policies has made us completely defenseless of the airlines. Similar goes, for example, for phone and internet providers. They call you on the phone, explain you a lot of things very quickly, and sort of force you to accept. Then, the small print, oh,, well, then you are fried.

No offense, but I’m not sure what your advocating here, is it that we need government to step in and do something? If so, what? I empathize with some of your suggestions but I think your choosing a really bad example here to demonstrate your point. Overall a few thoughts:

1. We only have a 90 second clip, and no clear timeline of what happened when (timeline of mechanical issue, weather issue & crew timeout issue). Given the operating environment around this issue, I’m not sure it’s reasonable to point any fingers here.
2. JFK as a whole was impacted by a violent line of thunderstorms that moved through the area Wednesday evening disrupting all operations.
3. JFK is down a runway this summer due to construction, this has been widely publicized which is restricting the number of operations at the airport

eielef wrote:
There are, at least, many flights between JFK and LAX.
DL975 is a B763 aircraft, so ~211 seats. DL975 has a scheduled departure time of 15:30-18:50 (LT).
The following flights left to LAX, nonstop, in the next hours:

Updated with Actual departure times that day from FlightAware & threw in the UA schedule as well for kicks:
B61323 at 16:00 - delayed till 10:39 pm
DL428 at 16:50 - Delayed till 7:06 pm
AA306 at 17:00 - Delayed till 10:01 pm
B61523 at 17:25 - Delayed till 1:09 am
QF12 at 18:10 (i doubt it is for sale though) - Delayed till 11:52 pm
DL447 at 18:15 - delayed till 7:32 pm
AA302 at 18:30 - Delayed till 9:29 pm
DL427 at 19:15 - Delayed till 11:07 pm
B61623 at 19:300 - Delayed till 11:18 pm
AA300 at 20:00 - Delayed till 9:54 pm
AS229 at 20:15 - delayed till 9:22 pm
AA185 at 20:45 - Delayed till 9:37 pm
B61723 at 21:29 - delayed till 10:01 pm
AA56 at 21:45 - delayed till 11:52 pm
From EWR:
UA751 at 16:00 - Delayed till 6:31 pm- full
UA1600 at 16:59 - Delayed till 6:40 pm - full
UA275 at 18:00 - delayed till 7:25 pm - full
UA1871 at 19:00 - delayed till 10:41 pm - 22 open seats
UA628 at 20:00 - delayed till 8:44 pm - 1 open seat

eielef wrote:
14 flights in a 6 hours window. Sure, being 6 hours late is a pain, landing at LAX at 01:00 (on AA56) is not the best.
But is much better than spending the whole night in the airport as an animal (because they were treated like animals).

Why didn't DL put them on flights both of DL (DL428, DL427 and DL447) as well of those flights from Jetblue, American or Alaska? 211 passengers (imagining a LF of 100%), is about 15 people on each flight. DL could have sent 15 people in each flight, the first would have arrived with some 20 minutes delay, the last with about 6 hours. It sound normal, not the best but at least not so miserable as it was for them .
Plus there are a ton of solutions, like getting a bus and driving, say, 30, to Newark and giving them other options, with UA for instance.
Also, flights that make a connection, for instance in ORD, DEN or PHX. That route, NYC-LAX should be among the busiest and best served in the world.


In my experience, the DL app allows passengers to reroute themselves as soon as a delay is posted, if there were seats on other DL itineraries, passengers should have been able to move themselves or visit customer service to get rerouted. As captured above, there weren’t a lot of good options & likely flights to other destinations were also heavily delayed- it’s a game of where do I want to get stuck...

On a normal day, I agree, there are a lot of options between NYC & LAX, but during OSO events like this one, carriers aren’t giving away seats to OALs typically. They tend to hold them back since (in weather events especially), there are too many unknowns in their own operations (creeping delays, Cancellations, timeouts etc) and they want to protect their passengers first- it’s not like the plane was just late.

eielef wrote:
I'm scared many of us are beginning to think the airline was right, when it is clearly not. Weather, maintenance, crew scheduling, all of that: who controls it? How do you know is a legit reason of the airline, to avoid having to pay hotels for everyone?

So I don’t necessarily disagree with you there, an audit mechanism would be an interesting concept to think through... implementation would be challenging.

eielef wrote:
I'd contact each passenger of DL975 and ask them, each of them to complain to the DOT and demand a fair apology, compensation, and even a signed letter of the CEO of DL saying: we won't do it again.

What would this accomplish?

To sum up my thoughts, this was a c**p situation and I’ve been in multiple of these over the years. I feel bad for the passengers & it sucks, but atleast they had a seat on a plane to their destination the next morning. After living through this multiple times with each of the big 3, I can honestly appreciate have that seat vs being rescheduled 1 or 2 days later (in some cases), having to create my own adventure through bizarre routings and multimodal transportation, or arguing with an overworked agent until they’re able to find something.

The one suggestion I see here is that there should be better accountability for how airlines are coding delays - I don’t disagree, and I’ve had to argue that a few times over the years. But honestly how would you go about doing that?


You are seriously right in most things.
1) Sure, storms and weather are not the airline fault. But, at least as I see it, there were also mechanical issues and crew issues involved in this particular flight. DL975 was many hours (18) delayed, while, for instance, AA had between 3 and 5 hours delay that same afternoon. So is not weather the real problem here.
2) JFK still has 3 other runways. LHR handles more traffic (aircraft taking off and landing) with only 2 runways. Also, similar number of movements have HKG and DXB, both with only two runways.
3) Ok, say meteorology was very bad. Still, can you say New York City has not enough hotels for all these passengers? Do you think water and cheese are the answer?
4) How long were the storms? Why other airlines departed during the evening and DL left the following day? Mechanic or crew issues. Then, airline must be responsable and give passengers a compensation, hotel, etc.
5) I'm glad you agree with me on something. I don't really know how it works in the US, who regulates everything. Say the DOT. There should be an app for the passengers to write: the airline just told us, 1 minute ago, that we are delayed because of weather. Then, the DOT will check the radars to agree if there is or no weather. Say there is no weather problem (it happens very often: there is weather just for flight XX999, while XX997 has no weather issues and departures on time 2 minutes later). If it was technical issue, there should be a scale of how long it takes to get fixed. Also, how fast are passengers informed about the issue. How accurate is what they are told. If anything isn't ice clear, then put a fine to the airline. And force the airline to compensate the passengers. E.G. when they make you board the plane which hasn't been fixed yet, just to not pay the hotels for everyone.
6) You'll accomplish, while apologizing to each passenger, that realize that behind the airline they are human beings. That is not just a machine. That they are really sorry for getting those 200 people or so over 20 hours late to LAX, leaving them to sleep in the floor. This people had commitments, family, funerals, work, holidays, and they were ruined because of extremely poor airline performance. Even by PR standards, apologizing is the cheapest option.
 
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ssteve
Posts: 1360
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:32 am

Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 3:01 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
It is a disturbing trend (B6 is doing it now too) to get a completion factor metric.

As someone flying 15 years, the negative effects of cancelling and rebooking are better than the negative effects of making people wait 22 hrs in the airport.

The DOT, needs to break out a new category titled “excessive delays towards completion factor “ That will stop this garbage once and for all.

The weather defense from the airline insulates them from providing a hotel. This is abused by airlines all the time and always has been.


Cancellations are a nightmare, especially if you have no status on the airline... you end up being expected to wait at the airport during operating hours, and if you should want a hotel room, you'd better get it yourself but ensure you're back at their airport dark and early.

I'd rather have my flight delay 10 hours and arrive at 4am.

I agree that "weather" is far too easy an excuse. "Weather" was the reason we arrived hours late with a missed connection at PHL, even though the issue was that the SEA->PHL a320 didn't have the fuel reserves to fly a route around the storms that were neither in SEA or PHL. Darn weather scheduled an a320 on that route. Whocoodanode.
 
OneX123
Posts: 45
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2017 1:08 am

Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 3:18 pm

ssteve wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
It is a disturbing trend (B6 is doing it now too) to get a completion factor metric.

As someone flying 15 years, the negative effects of cancelling and rebooking are better than the negative effects of making people wait 22 hrs in the airport.

The DOT, needs to break out a new category titled “excessive delays towards completion factor “ That will stop this garbage once and for all.

The weather defense from the airline insulates them from providing a hotel. This is abused by airlines all the time and always has been.


Cancellations are a nightmare, especially if you have no status on the airline... you end up being expected to wait at the airport during operating hours, and if you should want a hotel room, you'd better get it yourself but ensure you're back at their airport dark and early.

I'd rather have my flight delay 10 hours and arrive at 4am.

I agree that "weather" is far too easy an excuse. "Weather" was the reason we arrived hours late with a missed connection at PHL, even though the issue was that the SEA->PHL a320 didn't have the fuel reserves to fly a route around the storms that were neither in SEA or PHL. Darn weather scheduled an a320 on that route. Whocoodanode.


It's also bogus if a flight is delayed 2+hrs for mechanical and *then* weather creeps in and you're delayed or cancelled due to weather. Had it happen on B6 flight from BOS to ORD one time. It was a 6am departure delayed 2.45hrs due to mechanical. We boarded, weather had overtaken ORD, and then we were cancelled due to weather. The flight is around 2/2.5hrs normally. So, if it wasn't for the mechanical issue, we would've landed and deboarded in ORD before weather arrived.

The games they play!
 
Gulfstream500
Posts: 348
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:30 am

Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 4:01 pm

OneX123 wrote:
ssteve wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
It is a disturbing trend (B6 is doing it now too) to get a completion factor metric.

As someone flying 15 years, the negative effects of cancelling and rebooking are better than the negative effects of making people wait 22 hrs in the airport.

The DOT, needs to break out a new category titled “excessive delays towards completion factor “ That will stop this garbage once and for all.

The weather defense from the airline insulates them from providing a hotel. This is abused by airlines all the time and always has been.


Cancellations are a nightmare, especially if you have no status on the airline... you end up being expected to wait at the airport during operating hours, and if you should want a hotel room, you'd better get it yourself but ensure you're back at their airport dark and early.

I'd rather have my flight delay 10 hours and arrive at 4am.

I agree that "weather" is far too easy an excuse. "Weather" was the reason we arrived hours late with a missed connection at PHL, even though the issue was that the SEA->PHL a320 didn't have the fuel reserves to fly a route around the storms that were neither in SEA or PHL. Darn weather scheduled an a320 on that route. Whocoodanode.


It's also bogus if a flight is delayed 2+hrs for mechanical and *then* weather creeps in and you're delayed or cancelled due to weather. Had it happen on B6 flight from BOS to ORD one time. It was a 6am departure delayed 2.45hrs due to mechanical. We boarded, weather had overtaken ORD, and then we were cancelled due to weather. The flight is around 2/2.5hrs normally. So, if it wasn't for the mechanical issue, we would've landed and deboarded in ORD before weather arrived.

The games they play!


I have quite a bit of *experience* with this one... One time flying with AA, I somehow managed to miss my connecting flight (with a five hour connection!) due to a delayed first flight. The only reason I missed the second flight? They closed the boarding doors 20 minutes early, with only 20 passengers onboard a 76 seat RJ! I got home a whole day later!

I’ve also dealt with a 9PM flight being delayed through the night and then cancelled.
Can someone please start a wikipedia list of failed startup airlines? I am interested in seeing just how long it would be...
 
User avatar
tlecam
Posts: 1425
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:38 pm

Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 4:56 pm

My take is that the rules are too lax for delays/cancellations for the airlines. Load factors are so high that cancellations can mean multi-day delays. This leads to the behavior of delaying a flight practically in perpetuity... if you were on an afternoon flight and its delayed to the next day, as a consumer, are you *really* getting what you paid for?

I’ve been flying a lot between both BOS and LGA and ORD and experienced both.

DL delayed an ORD-LGA flight from 5:30 PM until the next day at 8AM.
UA delayed an ORD-BOS flight from roughly 5:30 until after 2AM (for bizarre reasons - the flight at the gate before mine went out on Mx. It took them so long to haul the plane away that ours arriving flight ended up parking at a different gate and being re-purposed. THey kept telling us that they were delayed due to “traffic on the tarmac”. Then there were flight crew issues. Then UA tried to tell me that it was out of their control so no compensation was warranted. I had documented the entire thing, including times of announcements at the gate, what was communicated and name of UA employee. I also escalated it to our corporate travel folks and all of a sudden UA called me singing a very different tune.

Neither are really acceptable from a consumer POV, but consumers have no leverage.
BOS-LGA-JFK | A:319/20/21, 332/3, 346 || B:717, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 787, 772, 744 || MD80, MD90
 
aviationjunky
Posts: 388
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2016 10:27 pm

Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:14 pm

dmstorm22 wrote:
It's gotta be a # of hours threshold I image??

Otherwise a 10pm flight delayed to 1am would count?


I believe after 8 hours (don't quote me because it haven't worked in the industry in almost a decade), the airline is legally obligated to begin the process of refunds, rescheduling, and/or rerouting passengers at the passenger's request. That is as per the FAA. We had a guideline we had to follow, and it was broken down by hour chunk. If my memory serves me correctly, it was: 0-4 passengers don't get anything, 4-8 food/drink vouchers +/or future flight vouchers, 8+ refund/reschedule (no fee)/reroute (no fee)/future flight voucher. Obviously, there are things that ware not covered, like weather and other "acts of God" or anything out of the control of the airline, but mechanical and team member time-out would be covered.

EDIT: I'm sorry.. It was the DOT, not FAA.
LAS is Life
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1175
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:44 pm

tlecam wrote:
My take is that the rules are too lax for delays/cancellations for the airlines. Load factors are so high that cancellations can mean multi-day delays. This leads to the behavior of delaying a flight practically in perpetuity... if you were on an afternoon flight and its delayed to the next day, as a consumer, are you *really* getting what you paid for?

I’ve been flying a lot between both BOS and LGA and ORD and experienced both.

DL delayed an ORD-LGA flight from 5:30 PM until the next day at 8AM.
UA delayed an ORD-BOS flight from roughly 5:30 until after 2AM (for bizarre reasons - the flight at the gate before mine went out on Mx. It took them so long to haul the plane away that ours arriving flight ended up parking at a different gate and being re-purposed. THey kept telling us that they were delayed due to “traffic on the tarmac”. Then there were flight crew issues. Then UA tried to tell me that it was out of their control so no compensation was warranted. I had documented the entire thing, including times of announcements at the gate, what was communicated and name of UA employee. I also escalated it to our corporate travel folks and all of a sudden UA called me singing a very different tune.

Neither are really acceptable from a consumer POV, but consumers have no leverage.

Technically, yes. You're buying a plane ticket from point A to point B, and have a seat reserved on a certain flight; if the flight is delayed, then your contract execution is delayed as well.
Not really cool for the passenger, but it is like that.

And, delaying a flight practically in perpetuity (as you mentioned) allows for avoiding to have to rebook a whole plane's worth of passengers with onesies-twosies seats available in the future flights. The flight will be conducted, albeit delayed, and your seat is still reserved on that flight (unless you can take an earlier flight or scrap your travel plans).
 
777Mech
Posts: 775
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:54 pm

Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:32 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
This type of stuff isn't really all that uncommon. Delta has had a run of bad PR with delayed flights, on board riots, and airplanes cracking on arrival in the last week. Maybe some of the brilliance is starting to tarnish?


What airplanes are cracking on arrival?
 
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itripreport
Posts: 90
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2016 6:36 pm

Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:37 pm

And this is why Delta's low cancellation thing is just fake. They just keep delaying flights to sell it as Delayed and not cancelled.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1175
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:39 pm

itripreport wrote:
And this is why Delta's low cancellation thing is just fake. They just keep delaying flights to sell it as Delayed and not cancelled.

How is that fake? The trip will happen, just delayed.
Don't blame the player, blame the game; the other airlines could (should?) do the same.
 
seat1a
Posts: 471
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:52 pm

Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:10 pm

so how does a flight delayed into the following day (or days) work within the network? wouldn't that aircraft be needed elsewhere as part of it rotating through the network? do they just keep the aircraft at the gate? asking for a friend.

agreed, seems like a nightmare to have the airline hunt for empty seats to re-book passengers.
 
max999
Posts: 1116
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:05 am

Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:12 pm

tlecam wrote:
My take is that the rules are too lax for delays/cancellations for the airlines. Load factors are so high that cancellations can mean multi-day delays. This leads to the behavior of delaying a flight practically in perpetuity... if you were on an afternoon flight and its delayed to the next day, as a consumer, are you *really* getting what you paid for?


We need something like the EU 261 rules in the US. At least the rules provide a minimum baseline on how airlines should treat and compensate passengers when there are delays.

Currently, US passengers are at the whim of the airlines' callousness.
All the things I really like to do are either immoral, illegal, or fattening.

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