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mpdpilot
Posts: 807
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:44 am

Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:14 pm

aviationjunky wrote:
dmstorm22 wrote:
It's gotta be a # of hours threshold I image??

Otherwise a 10pm flight delayed to 1am would count?


I believe after 8 hours (don't quote me because it haven't worked in the industry in almost a decade), the airline is legally obligated to begin the process of refunds, rescheduling, and/or rerouting passengers at the passenger's request. That is as per the FAA. We had a guideline we had to follow, and it was broken down by hour chunk. If my memory serves me correctly, it was: 0-4 passengers don't get anything, 4-8 food/drink vouchers +/or future flight vouchers, 8+ refund/reschedule (no fee)/reroute (no fee)/future flight voucher. Obviously, there are things that ware not covered, like weather and other "acts of God" or anything out of the control of the airline, but mechanical and team member time-out would be covered.

EDIT: I'm sorry.. It was the DOT, not FAA.


So, Delta offers rerouting after any delay. I was flying to PHX a week or two ago and the flight was delayed 30min and I got a notification about being able to reroute.

The problem isn't whether these passengers could have been rerouted, its whether it made sense to. If there were delays all over the east coast, there aren't going to be a lot of options. Reroute and fly out in 1-2 days or wait 18 hours for your original flight, I will take the original flight every time. JFK-LAX, not like there were going to be very many people connecting after arriving in LAX so I don't see how cancelling the flight would have accomplished anything.

As another poster mentioned, Delta should have provided hotel rooms for passengers while they waited as per deltas own policy, that is about the only thing that could have made this better. But even if it was a 100% legit weather delay, a number of the passengers could have just gone home (likely a fair number of NYC locals on the flight) and if you aren't local, arent their usually discounted hotel rates from the airline? Last time I was delayed Delta helped me arrange a room at a Marriott for $80/night, it was a weather delay so it was my decision but they still helped.

eielef wrote:
You are seriously right in most things.
1) Sure, storms and weather are not the airline fault. But, at least as I see it, there were also mechanical issues and crew issues involved in this particular flight. DL975 was many hours (18) delayed, while, for instance, AA had between 3 and 5 hours delay that same afternoon. So is not weather the real problem here.
2) JFK still has 3 other runways. LHR handles more traffic (aircraft taking off and landing) with only 2 runways. Also, similar number of movements have HKG and DXB, both with only two runways.
3) Ok, say meteorology was very bad. Still, can you say New York City has not enough hotels for all these passengers? Do you think water and cheese are the answer?
4) How long were the storms? Why other airlines departed during the evening and DL left the following day? Mechanic or crew issues. Then, airline must be responsable and give passengers a compensation, hotel, etc.
5) I'm glad you agree with me on something. I don't really know how it works in the US, who regulates everything. Say the DOT. There should be an app for the passengers to write: the airline just told us, 1 minute ago, that we are delayed because of weather. Then, the DOT will check the radars to agree if there is or no weather. Say there is no weather problem (it happens very often: there is weather just for flight XX999, while XX997 has no weather issues and departures on time 2 minutes later). If it was technical issue, there should be a scale of how long it takes to get fixed. Also, how fast are passengers informed about the issue. How accurate is what they are told. If anything isn't ice clear, then put a fine to the airline. And force the airline to compensate the passengers. E.G. when they make you board the plane which hasn't been fixed yet, just to not pay the hotels for everyone.
6) You'll accomplish, while apologizing to each passenger, that realize that behind the airline they are human beings. That is not just a machine. That they are really sorry for getting those 200 people or so over 20 hours late to LAX, leaving them to sleep in the floor. This people had commitments, family, funerals, work, holidays, and they were ruined because of extremely poor airline performance. Even by PR standards, apologizing is the cheapest option.


1) this I think is the only part that makes sense.
2) have you ever looked at NYC Airspace? Like 4+ airports have to coordinate a runway change. And I highly doubt LHR and HKG don't delay just as many flights as JFK when there is a thunderstorm in the area.
3) while NYC is big hotels don't just have empty rooms for airline weather delays, and even if there were rooms (which i suspect there were), someone still has to pay for it, either delta or the passenger.
4) I am sure if you looked at Deltas whole schedule they didn't delay every flight until the next day. 1 flight out of hundreds gets a delay because that aircraft also had maintenance/crew issues.
5) It is nice to hear about your confidence in the DOT/FAA and their app building abilities. The scale of this app that you are suggesting is ridiculous. Someone checking on every passengers report of a delay? The DOT would need more employees than the TSA, and what would they do when the weather is perfect? Perhaps there is a Big Data tool that could handle this but I doubt the DOT/FAA have the resources or know how to make it happen.
and 6) I think this line of thought is fascinating. We want our airline to do something to make them seem more human and less machine. Yet passengers continue to yell and scream at airport employees as if they were not human. Airlines as a whole might be a machine, but they are operated by, you guessed it humans. Now I am not saying you(eielef) treat airline employees poorly, but a lot of travelers do and then they expect the airline to treat them better?

You would be surprised what you can accomplish when you treat people with respect. Airlines do not (to my knowledge) have people sitting in a back room plotting away to make peoples travel miserable. They are humans trying to move people around as best they can. I have never met an employee that wasn't trying to get people where they wanted to go (not every employee was good at it but every employee tried).

Some say the airline should apologize more, I say passengers should treat airline employees with more respect.

It seems like everyone thinks airlines are out to get them (and maybe there are some CEOs that are) but the front line employee is not (unless you treat them poorly, then maybe). Employees might not always apply every policy exactly correct (because we are humans and we make mistakes) but they certainly aren't out to get you.
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
 
ozark1
Posts: 853
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 4:38 am

Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:37 pm

I tell ya, aren't airlines the WORST! Holy Cow, I mean the least they should be able to do is to have a fleet of spare planes waiting at each city they serve, just in case something mechanical happens. Let American and Southwest and United have their MAX 737s back so you don't have to be so miserable. Plunging into the ground 10 minutes after takeoff might be like a fun Disneyland ride! Bad weather? Who cares. Just put the pedal to the metal and fly right through those red areas on the radar. God forbid people are delayed. Each gate should have a cabinet full of pillows and blankets and mattresses so people like that poor man at JFK doesn't have to sleep with out any of these things. The operations department of each airline should have an IMMEDIATE plan as to every problem needing to be solved. Texting impersonal apologies has to go. "Oh my god Nancy, you poor poor thing! Delta will have a Mercedes waiting out front to whisk you to your suite at the Four Seasons in about a half hour". Crew rest? Oh come on. Abolish it.. Let the people who are in the cockpit and cabin fly endlessly, 15 hours, 20 hours, how about a week straight? Maybe you can get a good photo of the mountain you are about to slam into because the pilots can't keep their eyes open and put it on social media.
Every day, every frickin day on this site it is some other ridiculously dramatic story about how airlines are just awful as they attempt to transport millions of whiny, demanding, "it's all about ME" people around the world. STUFF HAPPENS! But it can't on an airline can it? No because it allows you to get on Twitter or whatever site dramatizes things to the hilt. You think the airlines suck? Do something about it, go march in Washington and hold up picket signs that say "I WAS DELAYED 2 HOURS!" and "THE BLANKETS WERE DIRTY!". I doubt anyone will pay much attention to you. As a matter of fact, they will probably laugh at you since they can't get anything accomplished under the current adminidysfunctiontration. You'll never realize just how good you've had it (I think maybe one fatality since 2007?). Naw, things like that don't matter when for one night of your life you have to sleep on the floor in an airport. What a world.
 
402679
Posts: 223
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2014 8:18 pm

Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:59 pm

This past few weeks have been chaotic at JFK / LGA area. Mostly due to storms.
I was supposed to fly BOS-JFK-GRU this past Monday (19th). Got on the plane at BOS and waited around 2.5 hours in the tarmac so that JFK could open again and we could fly. Right at that moment I noticed that the Delta app showed me the option to change my JFK-GRU flight to another day of route thru ATL. I decided to change it to next day. After deplaning and hoping at the lounge, I was able to change the BOS-JFK flight to next day as well. Lucky of me that I did not have any scheduled plans for next two days.

I also have to mention that the crew was fantastic. They were helping people rebook their flights and going above and beyond to help passengers.
 
Etheereal
Posts: 373
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 11:44 am

Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:36 pm

max999 wrote:
tlecam wrote:
My take is that the rules are too lax for delays/cancellations for the airlines. Load factors are so high that cancellations can mean multi-day delays. This leads to the behavior of delaying a flight practically in perpetuity... if you were on an afternoon flight and its delayed to the next day, as a consumer, are you *really* getting what you paid for?


We need something like the EU 261 rules in the US. At least the rules provide a minimum baseline on how airlines should treat and compensate passengers when there are delays.

Currently, US passengers are at the whim of the airlines' callousness.

In the land of the free™, you'll never get any kind of law about that. The lobbies are all too powerful.
 
TW870
Posts: 1203
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:01 am

Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:09 pm

Three factors shape how this impacts passengers.

1. The passenger's frequent flyer status on the airline
2. The passenger's knowledge about how airlines and hotels work
3. The passenger's disposable income

The best strategy in these situations is to GET OUT of the airport. If you have a club membership, go there and the agents will help you with any issues you have. Otherwise, just get online, book a hotel, hail a car, get to the hotel, chill out, and rebook through the app. Many people with a phone and computer can work remote anyway, so you will get much more done if you leave the situation. The problem, though, is that not everyone has access to a lounge, not everyone knows how to do all of these things, and not everyone has the money to book a hotel - even if the airline pays you back (DL has paid me back for a hotel). Its like most things in the U.S. now where the gap between the haves and the have-nots is very wide, and shapes how these experiences work. I have bailed on NYC airports twice just this year alone, coming back the next day and getting right to my destination. I could care less if they delay 10 or 22 or 1000 hours, I am not going to wait to watch it all happen. But I realize that not everyone is able to avoid these situations - which I think is the core of the problem.
 
Dieuwer
Posts: 2327
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:24 pm

Are these delays not due to a JFK problem? That airport is probably the worst ran in the country.
 
n562wn
Posts: 93
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2015 5:50 pm

Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:42 pm

ozark1 wrote:
I tell ya, aren't airlines the WORST! Holy Cow, I mean the least they should be able to do is to have a fleet of spare planes waiting at each city they serve, just in case something mechanical happens. Let American and Southwest and United have their MAX 737s back so you don't have to be so miserable. Plunging into the ground 10 minutes after takeoff might be like a fun Disneyland ride! Bad weather? Who cares. Just put the pedal to the metal and fly right through those red areas on the radar. God forbid people are delayed. Each gate should have a cabinet full of pillows and blankets and mattresses so people like that poor man at JFK doesn't have to sleep with out any of these things. The operations department of each airline should have an IMMEDIATE plan as to every problem needing to be solved. Texting impersonal apologies has to go. "Oh my god Nancy, you poor poor thing! Delta will have a Mercedes waiting out front to whisk you to your suite at the Four Seasons in about a half hour". Crew rest? Oh come on. Abolish it.. Let the people who are in the cockpit and cabin fly endlessly, 15 hours, 20 hours, how about a week straight? Maybe you can get a good photo of the mountain you are about to slam into because the pilots can't keep their eyes open and put it on social media.
Every day, every frickin day on this site it is some other ridiculously dramatic story about how airlines are just awful as they attempt to transport millions of whiny, demanding, "it's all about ME" people around the world. STUFF HAPPENS! But it can't on an airline can it? No because it allows you to get on Twitter or whatever site dramatizes things to the hilt. You think the airlines suck? Do something about it, go march in Washington and hold up picket signs that say "I WAS DELAYED 2 HOURS!" and "THE BLANKETS WERE DIRTY!". I doubt anyone will pay much attention to you. As a matter of fact, they will probably laugh at you since they can't get anything accomplished under the current adminidysfunctiontration. You'll never realize just how good you've had it (I think maybe one fatality since 2007?). Naw, things like that don't matter when for one night of your life you have to sleep on the floor in an airport. What a world.


The 'every kid gets a trophy' generation is all grown up and these are the results. To be fair, it's not really their fault. It's all they've ever known.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
DFW17L
Posts: 252
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 2:53 am

Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:43 pm

TW870 wrote:
Three factors shape how this impacts passengers.

1. The passenger's frequent flyer status on the airline
2. The passenger's knowledge about how airlines and hotels work
3. The passenger's disposable income

The best strategy in these situations is to GET OUT of the airport. If you have a club membership, go there and the agents will help you with any issues you have. Otherwise, just get online, book a hotel, hail a car, get to the hotel, chill out, and rebook through the app. Many people with a phone and computer can work remote anyway, so you will get much more done if you leave the situation. The problem, though, is that not everyone has access to a lounge, not everyone knows how to do all of these things, and not everyone has the money to book a hotel - even if the airline pays you back (DL has paid me back for a hotel). Its like most things in the U.S. now where the gap between the haves and the have-nots is very wide, and shapes how these experiences work. I have bailed on NYC airports twice just this year alone, coming back the next day and getting right to my destination. I could care less if they delay 10 or 22 or 1000 hours, I am not going to wait to watch it all happen. But I realize that not everyone is able to avoid these situations - which I think is the core of the problem.

+1

And be proactive. If you think you're going to be impacted by weather or equipment, book a hotel before they fill up. You can always cancel if you are going to take-off after all. And in the case of ORD, head over to Term 5...the taxi queues are much shorter.
 
eielef
Posts: 724
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:07 am

Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:48 pm

TW870 wrote:
Three factors shape how this impacts passengers.

1. The passenger's frequent flyer status on the airline
2. The passenger's knowledge about how airlines and hotels work
3. The passenger's disposable income

The best strategy in these situations is to GET OUT of the airport. If you have a club membership, go there and the agents will help you with any issues you have. Otherwise, just get online, book a hotel, hail a car, get to the hotel, chill out, and rebook through the app. Many people with a phone and computer can work remote anyway, so you will get much more done if you leave the situation. The problem, though, is that not everyone has access to a lounge, not everyone knows how to do all of these things, and not everyone has the money to book a hotel - even if the airline pays you back (DL has paid me back for a hotel). Its like most things in the U.S. now where the gap between the haves and the have-nots is very wide, and shapes how these experiences work. I have bailed on NYC airports twice just this year alone, coming back the next day and getting right to my destination. I could care less if they delay 10 or 22 or 1000 hours, I am not going to wait to watch it all happen. But I realize that not everyone is able to avoid these situations - which I think is the core of the problem.


Some many years ago, and there is a report on this forum, I was scheduled on a boring BCN-MAD flight, friday night, in Spanair (JK).
While taxing, the aircraft (A320 EC-INM) stopped. We waited some minutes before the captain told us: i'm sorry to tell you, our airline has bankrupted. All flights are suspended.
We walked back to the terminal. No bus, whatsoever. Walking there.

People went to the Ticket Offices of Spanair to find a solution. Queues were over 100 passengers. People was very upset. Police and press were present.
I checked the screens. Iberia was departing in 2 hours.
I went to the ticket office. How much is a flight to Madrid, now?
480EUR they told me. I laughed.

I checked also an obscure airline called Vuelling. They had a flight at 6am. How much was it? 300Eur.
Laughed.

Called the train station. The last train departed in 20 minutes. No time.
Bus station: no tickets available.

No option. Sixt. BMW. AP2. Madrid was just 5 hours away.

I kept all the receipts. Car, fuel, tolls.
I sent them all to the bankruptcy judge in Barcelona, some 7 years ago. I haven't heard from him again.
I wanted about 181EUR back. Still, less than half the price of a flight on that same route.

If there was some law saying: sure, look for your accomodation. Give me the ticket of your taxi, of your hotel, and we'll refund it to you, eventually in flying vouchers, it would be great.
But if it doesn't? How much are you going to risk?
Do you consider fair the situation of geoshina having wasted more than 24 hours to go from Boston to Brazil? Is it fair? What if he had a business meeting, or a family commitment? Who compensates him?

Because, if you are just 3 minutes late for check in, or boarding, or God knows what, you'll be charged heavily. But if the airline is 24 hours late, or 22, or 1, is God's fault. They don't accept their responsibility, are they are mostly responsable.

If the DOT needs more staff put it. Or put some agency (better run than the DOT) to control airlines, because they need to be controlled.
 
AEROFAN
Posts: 1843
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:47 am

Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:50 pm

I wonder what would have happened if a few pax had purchased a flight on another carrier.... I wonder if DL would have cancelled the return for those who did find alternate means of getting to LA... I know UA would have...
 
User avatar
gatibosgru
Posts: 1762
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:48 pm

Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:09 pm

n562wn wrote:
ozark1 wrote:
I tell ya, aren't airlines the WORST! Holy Cow, I mean the least they should be able to do is to have a fleet of spare planes waiting at each city they serve, just in case something mechanical happens. Let American and Southwest and United have their MAX 737s back so you don't have to be so miserable. Plunging into the ground 10 minutes after takeoff might be like a fun Disneyland ride! Bad weather? Who cares. Just put the pedal to the metal and fly right through those red areas on the radar. God forbid people are delayed. Each gate should have a cabinet full of pillows and blankets and mattresses so people like that poor man at JFK doesn't have to sleep with out any of these things. The operations department of each airline should have an IMMEDIATE plan as to every problem needing to be solved. Texting impersonal apologies has to go. "Oh my god Nancy, you poor poor thing! Delta will have a Mercedes waiting out front to whisk you to your suite at the Four Seasons in about a half hour". Crew rest? Oh come on. Abolish it.. Let the people who are in the cockpit and cabin fly endlessly, 15 hours, 20 hours, how about a week straight? Maybe you can get a good photo of the mountain you are about to slam into because the pilots can't keep their eyes open and put it on social media.
Every day, every frickin day on this site it is some other ridiculously dramatic story about how airlines are just awful as they attempt to transport millions of whiny, demanding, "it's all about ME" people around the world. STUFF HAPPENS! But it can't on an airline can it? No because it allows you to get on Twitter or whatever site dramatizes things to the hilt. You think the airlines suck? Do something about it, go march in Washington and hold up picket signs that say "I WAS DELAYED 2 HOURS!" and "THE BLANKETS WERE DIRTY!". I doubt anyone will pay much attention to you. As a matter of fact, they will probably laugh at you since they can't get anything accomplished under the current adminidysfunctiontration. You'll never realize just how good you've had it (I think maybe one fatality since 2007?). Naw, things like that don't matter when for one night of your life you have to sleep on the floor in an airport. What a world.


The 'every kid gets a trophy' generation is all grown up and these are the results. To be fair, it's not really their fault. It's all they've ever known.


Ok Boomer
@DadCelo
 
n562wn
Posts: 93
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2015 5:50 pm

Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:20 pm

gatibosgru wrote:
n562wn wrote:
ozark1 wrote:
I tell ya, aren't airlines the WORST! Holy Cow, I mean the least they should be able to do is to have a fleet of spare planes waiting at each city they serve, just in case something mechanical happens. Let American and Southwest and United have their MAX 737s back so you don't have to be so miserable. Plunging into the ground 10 minutes after takeoff might be like a fun Disneyland ride! Bad weather? Who cares. Just put the pedal to the metal and fly right through those red areas on the radar. God forbid people are delayed. Each gate should have a cabinet full of pillows and blankets and mattresses so people like that poor man at JFK doesn't have to sleep with out any of these things. The operations department of each airline should have an IMMEDIATE plan as to every problem needing to be solved. Texting impersonal apologies has to go. "Oh my god Nancy, you poor poor thing! Delta will have a Mercedes waiting out front to whisk you to your suite at the Four Seasons in about a half hour". Crew rest? Oh come on. Abolish it.. Let the people who are in the cockpit and cabin fly endlessly, 15 hours, 20 hours, how about a week straight? Maybe you can get a good photo of the mountain you are about to slam into because the pilots can't keep their eyes open and put it on social media.
Every day, every frickin day on this site it is some other ridiculously dramatic story about how airlines are just awful as they attempt to transport millions of whiny, demanding, "it's all about ME" people around the world. STUFF HAPPENS! But it can't on an airline can it? No because it allows you to get on Twitter or whatever site dramatizes things to the hilt. You think the airlines suck? Do something about it, go march in Washington and hold up picket signs that say "I WAS DELAYED 2 HOURS!" and "THE BLANKETS WERE DIRTY!". I doubt anyone will pay much attention to you. As a matter of fact, they will probably laugh at you since they can't get anything accomplished under the current adminidysfunctiontration. You'll never realize just how good you've had it (I think maybe one fatality since 2007?). Naw, things like that don't matter when for one night of your life you have to sleep on the floor in an airport. What a world.


The 'every kid gets a trophy' generation is all grown up and these are the results. To be fair, it's not really their fault. It's all they've ever known.


Ok Boomer


Nowhere close to a 'boomer' in age. Try again.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1709
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:42 pm

ozark1 wrote:
I tell ya, aren't airlines the WORST! Holy Cow, I mean the least they should be able to do is to have a fleet of spare planes waiting at each city they serve, just in case something mechanical happens. Let American and Southwest and United have their MAX 737s back so you don't have to be so miserable. Plunging into the ground 10 minutes after takeoff might be like a fun Disneyland ride! Bad weather? Who cares. Just put the pedal to the metal and fly right through those red areas on the radar. God forbid people are delayed. Each gate should have a cabinet full of pillows and blankets and mattresses so people like that poor man at JFK doesn't have to sleep with out any of these things. The operations department of each airline should have an IMMEDIATE plan as to every problem needing to be solved. Texting impersonal apologies has to go. "Oh my god Nancy, you poor poor thing! Delta will have a Mercedes waiting out front to whisk you to your suite at the Four Seasons in about a half hour". Crew rest? Oh come on. Abolish it.. Let the people who are in the cockpit and cabin fly endlessly, 15 hours, 20 hours, how about a week straight? Maybe you can get a good photo of the mountain you are about to slam into because the pilots can't keep their eyes open and put it on social media.
Every day, every frickin day on this site it is some other ridiculously dramatic story about how airlines are just awful as they attempt to transport millions of whiny, demanding, "it's all about ME" people around the world. STUFF HAPPENS! But it can't on an airline can it? No because it allows you to get on Twitter or whatever site dramatizes things to the hilt. You think the airlines suck? Do something about it, go march in Washington and hold up picket signs that say "I WAS DELAYED 2 HOURS!" and "THE BLANKETS WERE DIRTY!". I doubt anyone will pay much attention to you. As a matter of fact, they will probably laugh at you since they can't get anything accomplished under the current adminidysfunctiontration. You'll never realize just how good you've had it (I think maybe one fatality since 2007?). Naw, things like that don't matter when for one night of your life you have to sleep on the floor in an airport. What a world.

Did someone peed in your cereals this morning?

Yes, stuff happens. 18 hours delay, not so much...
 
Cointrin330
Posts: 1794
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:43 pm

777Mech wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
This type of stuff isn't really all that uncommon. Delta has had a run of bad PR with delayed flights, on board riots, and airplanes cracking on arrival in the last week. Maybe some of the brilliance is starting to tarnish?


What airplanes are cracking on arrival?


https://flightaware.com/squawks/view/1/ ... yto=233998
 
User avatar
Pudelhund
Posts: 256
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:06 pm

Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:45 pm

n562wn wrote:
gatibosgru wrote:
n562wn wrote:

The 'every kid gets a trophy' generation is all grown up and these are the results. To be fair, it's not really their fault. It's all they've ever known.


Ok Boomer


Nowhere close to a 'boomer' in age. Try again.


Yikes, that's even worse. Early onset boomeritis.
 
abrelosojos
Posts: 4302
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 6:48 am

Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:02 am

This is what happens when metrics at some airlines (and I have a feeling this is true at Delta) has become about un-canceled flights. Exec bonus and compensation are tied to this, and front line are super nervous about canceling flights. The U.S. needs new airlines, or better regulation. Simple as that.

Saludos,
Alex
Live, and let live.
 
n562wn
Posts: 93
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2015 5:50 pm

Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:06 am

Pudelhund wrote:
n562wn wrote:
gatibosgru wrote:

Ok Boomer


Nowhere close to a 'boomer' in age. Try again.


Yikes, that's even worse. Early onset boomeritis.


If not feeling entitled to any and everything is the definition of 'boomeritis' , guilty as charged.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
IPFreely
Posts: 2569
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:26 am

Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:18 am

TW870 wrote:
The problem, though, is that not everyone has access to a lounge, not everyone knows how to do all of these things, and not everyone has the money to book a hotel - even if the airline pays you back


You're right -- not everyone is as cool as you. Does the airline have no responsibility help their non-cool customers or even follow their alleged policy of providing hotels?
 
TW870
Posts: 1203
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:01 am

Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:31 am

IPFreely wrote:
TW870 wrote:
The problem, though, is that not everyone has access to a lounge, not everyone knows how to do all of these things, and not everyone has the money to book a hotel - even if the airline pays you back


You're right -- not everyone is as cool as you. Does the airline have no responsibility help their non-cool customers or even follow their alleged policy of providing hotels?


Huh?

The point of my post was to argue against a system in which FF status, industry knowledge, and income are the prerequisites to a smooth travel experience. The airline should move in a direction that all passengers should have a similar experience during significant irregular ops. Complimentary hotels, and better staffing at airport customer service centers and the call centers would be immediate ways to do this.

The issue isn't how long the delay is. The issue involves resources to assist all passengers during irregular ops.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 689
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:56 am

eielef wrote:
HPAEAA wrote:
eielef wrote:
Is a worldwide phenomena.
Now, passengers are hostages of airlines. Maybe because this non-interference of the state on their policies has made us completely defenseless of the airlines. Similar goes, for example, for phone and internet providers. They call you on the phone, explain you a lot of things very quickly, and sort of force you to accept. Then, the small print, oh,, well, then you are fried.

No offense, but I’m not sure what your advocating here, is it that we need government to step in and do something? If so, what? I empathize with some of your suggestions but I think your choosing a really bad example here to demonstrate your point. Overall a few thoughts:

1. We only have a 90 second clip, and no clear timeline of what happened when (timeline of mechanical issue, weather issue & crew timeout issue). Given the operating environment around this issue, I’m not sure it’s reasonable to point any fingers here.
2. JFK as a whole was impacted by a violent line of thunderstorms that moved through the area Wednesday evening disrupting all operations.
3. JFK is down a runway this summer due to construction, this has been widely publicized which is restricting the number of operations at the airport

eielef wrote:
There are, at least, many flights between JFK and LAX.
DL975 is a B763 aircraft, so ~211 seats. DL975 has a scheduled departure time of 15:30-18:50 (LT).
The following flights left to LAX, nonstop, in the next hours:

Updated with Actual departure times that day from FlightAware & threw in the UA schedule as well for kicks:
B61323 at 16:00 - delayed till 10:39 pm
DL428 at 16:50 - Delayed till 7:06 pm
AA306 at 17:00 - Delayed till 10:01 pm
B61523 at 17:25 - Delayed till 1:09 am
QF12 at 18:10 (i doubt it is for sale though) - Delayed till 11:52 pm
DL447 at 18:15 - delayed till 7:32 pm
AA302 at 18:30 - Delayed till 9:29 pm
DL427 at 19:15 - Delayed till 11:07 pm
B61623 at 19:300 - Delayed till 11:18 pm
AA300 at 20:00 - Delayed till 9:54 pm
AS229 at 20:15 - delayed till 9:22 pm
AA185 at 20:45 - Delayed till 9:37 pm
B61723 at 21:29 - delayed till 10:01 pm
AA56 at 21:45 - delayed till 11:52 pm
From EWR:
UA751 at 16:00 - Delayed till 6:31 pm- full
UA1600 at 16:59 - Delayed till 6:40 pm - full
UA275 at 18:00 - delayed till 7:25 pm - full
UA1871 at 19:00 - delayed till 10:41 pm - 22 open seats
UA628 at 20:00 - delayed till 8:44 pm - 1 open seat

eielef wrote:
14 flights in a 6 hours window. Sure, being 6 hours late is a pain, landing at LAX at 01:00 (on AA56) is not the best.
But is much better than spending the whole night in the airport as an animal (because they were treated like animals).

Why didn't DL put them on flights both of DL (DL428, DL427 and DL447) as well of those flights from Jetblue, American or Alaska? 211 passengers (imagining a LF of 100%), is about 15 people on each flight. DL could have sent 15 people in each flight, the first would have arrived with some 20 minutes delay, the last with about 6 hours. It sound normal, not the best but at least not so miserable as it was for them .
Plus there are a ton of solutions, like getting a bus and driving, say, 30, to Newark and giving them other options, with UA for instance.
Also, flights that make a connection, for instance in ORD, DEN or PHX. That route, NYC-LAX should be among the busiest and best served in the world.


In my experience, the DL app allows passengers to reroute themselves as soon as a delay is posted, if there were seats on other DL itineraries, passengers should have been able to move themselves or visit customer service to get rerouted. As captured above, there weren’t a lot of good options & likely flights to other destinations were also heavily delayed- it’s a game of where do I want to get stuck...

On a normal day, I agree, there are a lot of options between NYC & LAX, but during OSO events like this one, carriers aren’t giving away seats to OALs typically. They tend to hold them back since (in weather events especially), there are too many unknowns in their own operations (creeping delays, Cancellations, timeouts etc) and they want to protect their passengers first- it’s not like the plane was just late.

eielef wrote:
I'm scared many of us are beginning to think the airline was right, when it is clearly not. Weather, maintenance, crew scheduling, all of that: who controls it? How do you know is a legit reason of the airline, to avoid having to pay hotels for everyone?

So I don’t necessarily disagree with you there, an audit mechanism would be an interesting concept to think through... implementation would be challenging.

eielef wrote:
I'd contact each passenger of DL975 and ask them, each of them to complain to the DOT and demand a fair apology, compensation, and even a signed letter of the CEO of DL saying: we won't do it again.

What would this accomplish?

To sum up my thoughts, this was a c**p situation and I’ve been in multiple of these over the years. I feel bad for the passengers & it sucks, but atleast they had a seat on a plane to their destination the next morning. After living through this multiple times with each of the big 3, I can honestly appreciate have that seat vs being rescheduled 1 or 2 days later (in some cases), having to create my own adventure through bizarre routings and multimodal transportation, or arguing with an overworked agent until they’re able to find something.

The one suggestion I see here is that there should be better accountability for how airlines are coding delays - I don’t disagree, and I’ve had to argue that a few times over the years. But honestly how would you go about doing that?


You are seriously right in most things.
1) Sure, storms and weather are not the airline fault. But, at least as I see it, there were also mechanical issues and crew issues involved in this particular flight. DL975 was many hours (18) delayed, while, for instance, AA had between 3 and 5 hours delay that same afternoon. So is not weather the real problem here.
2) JFK still has 3 other runways. LHR handles more traffic (aircraft taking off and landing) with only 2 runways. Also, similar number of movements have HKG and DXB, both with only two runways.
3) Ok, say meteorology was very bad. Still, can you say New York City has not enough hotels for all these passengers? Do you think water and cheese are the answer?
4) How long were the storms? Why other airlines departed during the evening and DL left the following day? Mechanic or crew issues. Then, airline must be responsable and give passengers a compensation, hotel, etc.
5) I'm glad you agree with me on something. I don't really know how it works in the US, who regulates everything. Say the DOT. There should be an app for the passengers to write: the airline just told us, 1 minute ago, that we are delayed because of weather. Then, the DOT will check the radars to agree if there is or no weather. Say there is no weather problem (it happens very often: there is weather just for flight XX999, while XX997 has no weather issues and departures on time 2 minutes later). If it was technical issue, there should be a scale of how long it takes to get fixed. Also, how fast are passengers informed about the issue. How accurate is what they are told. If anything isn't ice clear, then put a fine to the airline. And force the airline to compensate the passengers. E.G. when they make you board the plane which hasn't been fixed yet, just to not pay the hotels for everyone.
6) You'll accomplish, while apologizing to each passenger, that realize that behind the airline they are human beings. That is not just a machine. That they are really sorry for getting those 200 people or so over 20 hours late to LAX, leaving them to sleep in the floor. This people had commitments, family, funerals, work, holidays, and they were ruined because of extremely poor airline performance. Even by PR standards, apologizing is the cheapest option.

LHR May operate more traffic, but doesn’t have two of the world’s other busiest airports operating just as many or more flight within 18 miles of it. LGA is just NINE miles away. Even something as innocuous as a 10 knot wind change can cause huge headaches, and big delays in NYC, as arrival and departure routes for all three airports get realigned.

LHR doesn’t operate in a center that sees sometimes frequent staffing issues, because no one wants live like a pauper in New York, when there are so many other choices.

You cannot even begin to compare the crowded NYC airspace to London. That is a false equivalency.
 
AZORMP
Posts: 79
Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2019 5:08 pm

Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:57 am

abrelosojos wrote:
This is what happens when metrics at some airlines (and I have a feeling this is true at Delta) has become about un-canceled flights. Exec bonus and compensation are tied to this, and front line are super nervous about canceling flights. The U.S. needs new airlines, or better regulation. Simple as that.

Saludos,
Alex


Well you’re not going to find new airlines, and I doubt regulation is going to happen, so.....

In my experiences with DL, when it’s something in their control, they’re more than happy to pay up. Mechanical issue on our aircraft from DTW-MBJ a few years ago. Second aircraft and crew came out but timed out in the air. They put us up in hotels (even paid for “all-inclusive”) for the night and we went out the next day.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of things still out of our control. One example is a few days ago when a RON got canceled due to WX in DTW. Called up dispatch to see if they were ferrying a flight in for us for the next day (the ever-popular 0530 departure) and was told no, it was canceled too, at about 11pm. Pax showed up the next day at 5 only to find their flight canceled. The pax service folks really worked wonders getting everyone rebooked and on their way but it was really a crappy situation all around.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 689
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Sat Aug 24, 2019 1:06 am

geoshina wrote:
This past few weeks have been chaotic at JFK / LGA area. Mostly due to storms.
I was supposed to fly BOS-JFK-GRU this past Monday (19th). Got on the plane at BOS and waited around 2.5 hours in the tarmac so that JFK could open again and we could fly. Right at that moment I noticed that the Delta app showed me the option to change my JFK-GRU flight to another day of route thru ATL. I decided to change it to next day. After deplaning and hoping at the lounge, I was able to change the BOS-JFK flight to next day as well. Lucky of me that I did not have any scheduled plans for next two days.

I also have to mention that the crew was fantastic. They were helping people rebook their flights and going above and beyond to help passengers.
Mid-July to mid September this happens, it is called “Summer”. And it will keep happening until the jet stream decides to depart for the Carolina beaches. In my 40+ years of being around flying, I have seen that happen as early as mid-August, to as late as Mid-October.

Jeeze snowflakes, we haven’t even hit the multiple Canada to Gulf storm front lines days yet. Do these people want parcipitation trophies already?
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 689
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Sat Aug 24, 2019 1:10 am

FlyingElvii wrote:
eielef wrote:
HPAEAA wrote:
No offense, but I’m not sure what your advocating here, is it that we need government to step in and do something? If so, what? I empathize with some of your suggestions but I think your choosing a really bad example here to demonstrate your point. Overall a few thoughts:

1. We only have a 90 second clip, and no clear timeline of what happened when (timeline of mechanical issue, weather issue & crew timeout issue). Given the operating environment around this issue, I’m not sure it’s reasonable to point any fingers here.
2. JFK as a whole was impacted by a violent line of thunderstorms that moved through the area Wednesday evening disrupting all operations.
3. JFK is down a runway this summer due to construction, this has been widely publicized which is restricting the number of operations at the airport


Updated with Actual departure times that day from FlightAware & threw in the UA schedule as well for kicks:
B61323 at 16:00 - delayed till 10:39 pm
DL428 at 16:50 - Delayed till 7:06 pm
AA306 at 17:00 - Delayed till 10:01 pm
B61523 at 17:25 - Delayed till 1:09 am
QF12 at 18:10 (i doubt it is for sale though) - Delayed till 11:52 pm
DL447 at 18:15 - delayed till 7:32 pm
AA302 at 18:30 - Delayed till 9:29 pm
DL427 at 19:15 - Delayed till 11:07 pm
B61623 at 19:300 - Delayed till 11:18 pm
AA300 at 20:00 - Delayed till 9:54 pm
AS229 at 20:15 - delayed till 9:22 pm
AA185 at 20:45 - Delayed till 9:37 pm
B61723 at 21:29 - delayed till 10:01 pm
AA56 at 21:45 - delayed till 11:52 pm
From EWR:
UA751 at 16:00 - Delayed till 6:31 pm- full
UA1600 at 16:59 - Delayed till 6:40 pm - full
UA275 at 18:00 - delayed till 7:25 pm - full
UA1871 at 19:00 - delayed till 10:41 pm - 22 open seats
UA628 at 20:00 - delayed till 8:44 pm - 1 open seat



In my experience, the DL app allows passengers to reroute themselves as soon as a delay is posted, if there were seats on other DL itineraries, passengers should have been able to move themselves or visit customer service to get rerouted. As captured above, there weren’t a lot of good options & likely flights to other destinations were also heavily delayed- it’s a game of where do I want to get stuck...

On a normal day, I agree, there are a lot of options between NYC & LAX, but during OSO events like this one, carriers aren’t giving away seats to OALs typically. They tend to hold them back since (in weather events especially), there are too many unknowns in their own operations (creeping delays, Cancellations, timeouts etc) and they want to protect their passengers first- it’s not like the plane was just late.


So I don’t necessarily disagree with you there, an audit mechanism would be an interesting concept to think through... implementation would be challenging.


What would this accomplish?

To sum up my thoughts, this was a c**p situation and I’ve been in multiple of these over the years. I feel bad for the passengers & it sucks, but atleast they had a seat on a plane to their destination the next morning. After living through this multiple times with each of the big 3, I can honestly appreciate have that seat vs being rescheduled 1 or 2 days later (in some cases), having to create my own adventure through bizarre routings and multimodal transportation, or arguing with an overworked agent until they’re able to find something.

The one suggestion I see here is that there should be better accountability for how airlines are coding delays - I don’t disagree, and I’ve had to argue that a few times over the years. But honestly how would you go about doing that?


You are seriously right in most things.
1) Sure, storms and weather are not the airline fault. But, at least as I see it, there were also mechanical issues and crew issues involved in this particular flight. DL975 was many hours (18) delayed, while, for instance, AA had between 3 and 5 hours delay that same afternoon. So is not weather the real problem here.
2) JFK still has 3 other runways. LHR handles more traffic (aircraft taking off and landing) with only 2 runways. Also, similar number of movements have HKG and DXB, both with only two runways.
3) Ok, say meteorology was very bad. Still, can you say New York City has not enough hotels for all these passengers? Do you think water and cheese are the answer?
4) How long were the storms? Why other airlines departed during the evening and DL left the following day? Mechanic or crew issues. Then, airline must be responsable and give passengers a compensation, hotel, etc.
5) I'm glad you agree with me on something. I don't really know how it works in the US, who regulates everything. Say the DOT. There should be an app for the passengers to write: the airline just told us, 1 minute ago, that we are delayed because of weather. Then, the DOT will check the radars to agree if there is or no weather. Say there is no weather problem (it happens very often: there is weather just for flight XX999, while XX997 has no weather issues and departures on time 2 minutes later). If it was technical issue, there should be a scale of how long it takes to get fixed. Also, how fast are passengers informed about the issue. How accurate is what they are told. If anything isn't ice clear, then put a fine to the airline. And force the airline to compensate the passengers. E.G. when they make you board the plane which hasn't been fixed yet, just to not pay the hotels for everyone.
6) You'll accomplish, while apologizing to each passenger, that realize that behind the airline they are human beings. That is not just a machine. That they are really sorry for getting those 200 people or so over 20 hours late to LAX, leaving them to sleep in the floor. This people had commitments, family, funerals, work, holidays, and they were ruined because of extremely poor airline performance. Even by PR standards, apologizing is the cheapest option.

LHR May operate more traffic, but doesn’t have two of the world’s other busiest airports operating just as many or more flight within 18 miles of it. LGA is just NINE miles away. Even something as innocuous as a 10 knot wind change can cause huge headaches, and big delays in NYC, as arrival and departure routes for all three airports get realigned.

LHR doesn’t operate in a center that sees sometimes frequent staffing issues, because no one wants live like a pauper in New York, when there are so many other choices.

You cannot even begin to compare the crowded NYC airspace to London. That is a false equivalency.

I see Delta’s point. Flights to everywhere are at record load factors, and every xcld flight is lost opportunity revenue. Overnight delays allow not only for recovery, but the opportunity to clean up pax from other delayed flights, without paying for deadhead repositionings.

The pax hate it, but the bean-counters likely love it, and it shows in the quarterly financial reports.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 689
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Sat Aug 24, 2019 1:12 am

TW870 wrote:
IPFreely wrote:
TW870 wrote:
The problem, though, is that not everyone has access to a lounge, not everyone knows how to do all of these things, and not everyone has the money to book a hotel - even if the airline pays you back


You're right -- not everyone is as cool as you. Does the airline have no responsibility help their non-cool customers or even follow their alleged policy of providing hotels?


Huh?

The point of my post was to argue against a system in which FF status, industry knowledge, and income are the prerequisites to a smooth travel experience. The airline should move in a direction that all passengers should have a similar experience during significant irregular ops. Complimentary hotels, and better staffing at airport customer service centers and the call centers would be immediate ways to do this.

The issue isn't how long the delay is. The issue involves resources to assist all passengers during irregular ops.


Those days died with the end of deregulation. I do remember them. Every single airline that tried to follow that line of thinking eventually went bankrupt.
 
alasizon
Posts: 2505
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Sat Aug 24, 2019 1:18 am

TW870 wrote:
The airline should move in a direction that all passengers should have a similar experience during significant irregular ops. Complimentary hotels, and better staffing at airport customer service centers and the call centers would be immediate ways to do this.

The issue isn't how long the delay is. The issue involves resources to assist all passengers during irregular ops.


The problem with that is what do those people do when everything is going "okay". Often the hold-up at getting folks re-booked is not the number of people working the counter but rather than number of available seats to any given market.

Every passenger wants a seat now to their destination and sometimes it can take 10-20 minutes to find a creative reroute just to get the passenger where they need to be often nowhere near the time they needed to be there. I once re-routed a passenger PHX-SEA-IAH-MSP-FSD because that was the only way they were getting to FSD within 48 hours. It took three different airlines (and going through the pain of exchanging their ticket across all the OAs). Another time had a pax miss a flight to EGE and they were re-routed via MIA just to get there that week; everything else was zeroed out.

And why should the airline foot the bill for hotel rooms when the cancellation is beyond their control (legitimately)?

FlyingElvii wrote:
I see Delta’s point. Flights to everywhere are at record load factors, and every xcld flight is lost opportunity revenue. Overnight delays allow not only for recovery, but the opportunity to clean up pax from other delayed flights, without paying for deadhead repositionings.

The pax hate it, but the bean-counters likely love it, and it shows in the quarterly financial reports.


The overnight delay is probably just as costly. Its actually the PR folks that love the stat and that is what shows in the financials.
Airport (noun) - A construction site which airplanes tend to frequent
 
HPAEAA
Posts: 1141
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 7:24 am

Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Sat Aug 24, 2019 1:39 am

FlyingElvii wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
eielef wrote:

You are seriously right in most things.
1) Sure, storms and weather are not the airline fault. But, at least as I see it, there were also mechanical issues and crew issues involved in this particular flight. DL975 was many hours (18) delayed, while, for instance, AA had between 3 and 5 hours delay that same afternoon. So is not weather the real problem here.
2) JFK still has 3 other runways. LHR handles more traffic (aircraft taking off and landing) with only 2 runways. Also, similar number of movements have HKG and DXB, both with only two runways.
3) Ok, say meteorology was very bad. Still, can you say New York City has not enough hotels for all these passengers? Do you think water and cheese are the answer?
4) How long were the storms? Why other airlines departed during the evening and DL left the following day? Mechanic or crew issues. Then, airline must be responsable and give passengers a compensation, hotel, etc.
5) I'm glad you agree with me on something. I don't really know how it works in the US, who regulates everything. Say the DOT. There should be an app for the passengers to write: the airline just told us, 1 minute ago, that we are delayed because of weather. Then, the DOT will check the radars to agree if there is or no weather. Say there is no weather problem (it happens very often: there is weather just for flight XX999, while XX997 has no weather issues and departures on time 2 minutes later). If it was technical issue, there should be a scale of how long it takes to get fixed. Also, how fast are passengers informed about the issue. How accurate is what they are told. If anything isn't ice clear, then put a fine to the airline. And force the airline to compensate the passengers. E.G. when they make you board the plane which hasn't been fixed yet, just to not pay the hotels for everyone.
6) You'll accomplish, while apologizing to each passenger, that realize that behind the airline they are human beings. That is not just a machine. That they are really sorry for getting those 200 people or so over 20 hours late to LAX, leaving them to sleep in the floor. This people had commitments, family, funerals, work, holidays, and they were ruined because of extremely poor airline performance. Even by PR standards, apologizing is the cheapest option.

LHR May operate more traffic, but doesn’t have two of the world’s other busiest airports operating just as many or more flight within 18 miles of it. LGA is just NINE miles away. Even something as innocuous as a 10 knot wind change can cause huge headaches, and big delays in NYC, as arrival and departure routes for all three airports get realigned.

LHR doesn’t operate in a center that sees sometimes frequent staffing issues, because no one wants live like a pauper in New York, when there are so many other choices.

You cannot even begin to compare the crowded NYC airspace to London. That is a false equivalency.

I see Delta’s point. Flights to everywhere are at record load factors, and every xcld flight is lost opportunity revenue. Overnight delays allow not only for recovery, but the opportunity to clean up pax from other delayed flights, without paying for deadhead repositionings.

The pax hate it, but the bean-counters likely love it, and it shows in the quarterly financial reports.

I’d actually be curious to understand which passengers hate less, given how many surveys I get form Delta, I’m sure they have data on this, it’s a rock and a hard place operationally, cancel and hope you can redeploy the revenue over openings on other flights (which are harder and harder to find) by filling the middle seats or operate the fleet with enough slack to allow for a few of these during peak season...
1.4mm and counting...
 
TW870
Posts: 1203
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:01 am

Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:08 am

alasizon wrote:
And why should the airline foot the bill for hotel rooms when the cancellation is beyond their control (legitimately)?


Overall I completely hear your point that rebooking immediately in the current operating environment is extremely difficult, and that reaccommodation in the short term is unrealistic in a marketplace where low fares and high load factors are defining features.

The only point I disagree with is the above case - when it occurs in New York. The NYC operation on all airlines is so miserable and so unreliable that I think everyone needs to share more of the burden - because right now it is hardest on passengers, and especially passengers who are less familiar with air travel. I just came through Kennedy the other day on the way in from the Azores on Delta, and the amount of yelling at passengers in customs, and then the five hour delay in thunderstorms, and the massively crowded gate areas as all the flights were cancelling. It is just an embarrassment. It is no better or worse on AA or B6 or across the river on UA. I just think with as bad as Kennedy and LGA are, that DL should think more outside the box and be more generous, as it could help them differentiate a service-based brand that they are doing an excellent job of offering in most cases.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2360
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:10 am

ozark1 wrote:
I tell ya, aren't airlines the WORST! Holy Cow, I mean the least they should be able to do is to have a fleet of spare planes waiting at each city they serve, just in case something mechanical happens. Let American and Southwest and United have their MAX 737s back so you don't have to be so miserable. Plunging into the ground 10 minutes after takeoff might be like a fun Disneyland ride! Bad weather? Who cares. Just put the pedal to the metal and fly right through those red areas on the radar. God forbid people are delayed. Each gate should have a cabinet full of pillows and blankets and mattresses so people like that poor man at JFK doesn't have to sleep with out any of these things. The operations department of each airline should have an IMMEDIATE plan as to every problem needing to be solved. Texting impersonal apologies has to go. "Oh my god Nancy, you poor poor thing! Delta will have a Mercedes waiting out front to whisk you to your suite at the Four Seasons in about a half hour". Crew rest? Oh come on. Abolish it.. Let the people who are in the cockpit and cabin fly endlessly, 15 hours, 20 hours, how about a week straight? Maybe you can get a good photo of the mountain you are about to slam into because the pilots can't keep their eyes open and put it on social media.
Every day, every frickin day on this site it is some other ridiculously dramatic story about how airlines are just awful as they attempt to transport millions of whiny, demanding, "it's all about ME" people around the world. STUFF HAPPENS! But it can't on an airline can it? No because it allows you to get on Twitter or whatever site dramatizes things to the hilt. You think the airlines suck? Do something about it, go march in Washington and hold up picket signs that say "I WAS DELAYED 2 HOURS!" and "THE BLANKETS WERE DIRTY!". I doubt anyone will pay much attention to you. As a matter of fact, they will probably laugh at you since they can't get anything accomplished under the current adminidysfunctiontration. You'll never realize just how good you've had it (I think maybe one fatality since 2007?). Naw, things like that don't matter when for one night of your life you have to sleep on the floor in an airport. What a world.


How horrible that we expect the airline to uphold their end of the contract! They certainly look for any excuse to boot passengers while keeping their money.

If a cab driver tried to keep a passenger in their car for hours on end it would be considered kidnapping and false imprisonment. But do the same thing on an airplane and it's ok apparently.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2360
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:13 am

alasizon wrote:
TW870 wrote:
The airline should move in a direction that all passengers should have a similar experience during significant irregular ops. Complimentary hotels, and better staffing at airport customer service centers and the call centers would be immediate ways to do this.

The issue isn't how long the delay is. The issue involves resources to assist all passengers during irregular ops.


The problem with that is what do those people do when everything is going "okay". Often the hold-up at getting folks re-booked is not the number of people working the counter but rather than number of available seats to any given market.

Every passenger wants a seat now to their destination and sometimes it can take 10-20 minutes to find a creative reroute just to get the passenger where they need to be often nowhere near the time they needed to be there. I once re-routed a passenger PHX-SEA-IAH-MSP-FSD because that was the only way they were getting to FSD within 48 hours. It took three different airlines (and going through the pain of exchanging their ticket across all the OAs). Another time had a pax miss a flight to EGE and they were re-routed via MIA just to get there that week; everything else was zeroed out.

And why should the airline foot the bill for hotel rooms when the cancellation is beyond their control (legitimately)?

FlyingElvii wrote:
I see Delta’s point. Flights to everywhere are at record load factors, and every xcld flight is lost opportunity revenue. Overnight delays allow not only for recovery, but the opportunity to clean up pax from other delayed flights, without paying for deadhead repositionings.

The pax hate it, but the bean-counters likely love it, and it shows in the quarterly financial reports.


The overnight delay is probably just as costly. Its actually the PR folks that love the stat and that is what shows in the financials.


This delay was within Delta's control. The bad weather showed up after the flight was already delayed. Delta is insanely profitable and they can afford accomodations for passengers. They chose not to.
 
blueflyer
Posts: 4352
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:17 am

Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:13 am

HPAEAA wrote:
JFK is down a runway this summer due to construction, this has been widely publicized which is restricting the number of operations at the airport

Were airlines forced to cut their schedule to deal with the runway closure? If not, that is the kind of government action I want to see... I am tired of delays induced by flight planning that assumes clear-weather, bright-sunshine, everything-going-optimal when everyone knows it's a fairy tale and the runways can't handle the volume...
 
alasizon
Posts: 2505
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:21 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
alasizon wrote:
TW870 wrote:
The airline should move in a direction that all passengers should have a similar experience during significant irregular ops. Complimentary hotels, and better staffing at airport customer service centers and the call centers would be immediate ways to do this.

The issue isn't how long the delay is. The issue involves resources to assist all passengers during irregular ops.


The problem with that is what do those people do when everything is going "okay". Often the hold-up at getting folks re-booked is not the number of people working the counter but rather than number of available seats to any given market.

Every passenger wants a seat now to their destination and sometimes it can take 10-20 minutes to find a creative reroute just to get the passenger where they need to be often nowhere near the time they needed to be there. I once re-routed a passenger PHX-SEA-IAH-MSP-FSD because that was the only way they were getting to FSD within 48 hours. It took three different airlines (and going through the pain of exchanging their ticket across all the OAs). Another time had a pax miss a flight to EGE and they were re-routed via MIA just to get there that week; everything else was zeroed out.

And why should the airline foot the bill for hotel rooms when the cancellation is beyond their control (legitimately)?

FlyingElvii wrote:
I see Delta’s point. Flights to everywhere are at record load factors, and every xcld flight is lost opportunity revenue. Overnight delays allow not only for recovery, but the opportunity to clean up pax from other delayed flights, without paying for deadhead repositionings.

The pax hate it, but the bean-counters likely love it, and it shows in the quarterly financial reports.


The overnight delay is probably just as costly. Its actually the PR folks that love the stat and that is what shows in the financials.


This delay was within Delta's control. The bad weather showed up after the flight was already delayed. Delta is insanely profitable and they can afford accomodations for passengers. They chose not to.


My point wasn't about this particular flight but rather the assertion that all hotels should be complimentary.
Airport (noun) - A construction site which airplanes tend to frequent
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14393
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Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:21 am

TW870 wrote:
IPFreely wrote:
TW870 wrote:
The problem, though, is that not everyone has access to a lounge, not everyone knows how to do all of these things, and not everyone has the money to book a hotel - even if the airline pays you back


You're right -- not everyone is as cool as you. Does the airline have no responsibility help their non-cool customers or even follow their alleged policy of providing hotels?


Huh?

The point of my post was to argue against a system in which FF status, industry knowledge, and income are the prerequisites to a smooth travel experience. The airline should move in a direction that all passengers should have a similar experience during significant irregular ops. Complimentary hotels, and better staffing at airport customer service centers and the call centers would be immediate ways to do this.

The issue isn't how long the delay is. The issue involves resources to assist all passengers during irregular ops.


I dunno. I still think self-help is best, and many times my self-help involves an airline on which I have no status. I think some level of “industry knowledge” is required but not much - just enough to know that whatever booked flight you don’t use will get refunded ultimately. In the context of a vacation, especially a vacation with multiple people, a night in a hotel and a couple cab rides is a drop in the bucket. Some folks can’t readily help themselves, and self-help also allows the airlines to concentrate resources on them.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Ziyulu
Posts: 832
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:35 am

Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:22 am

Did they really delay the flight or cancel it? I've known some airlines would combine multiple flights into one.
 
alasizon
Posts: 2505
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:22 am

blueflyer wrote:
HPAEAA wrote:
JFK is down a runway this summer due to construction, this has been widely publicized which is restricting the number of operations at the airport

Were airlines forced to cut their schedule to deal with the runway closure? If not, that is the kind of government action I want to see... I am tired of delays induced by flight planning that assumes clear-weather, bright-sunshine, everything-going-optimal when everyone knows it's a fairy tale and the runways can't handle the volume...


AA conducted a large pull down to help account for it. Not sure if DL & B6 did.
Airport (noun) - A construction site which airplanes tend to frequent
 
strfyr51
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Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:25 am

It seems Delta could have flown in another airplane from Atlanta if they wanted to, though some flights do not have the impact on the system and it is sometimes preferable to cancel them rather than to keep them to a rolling delay.
 
Etheereal
Posts: 373
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Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:29 am

Dieuwer wrote:
Are these delays not due to a JFK problem? That airport is probably the worst ran in the country.

I thought LGA and ORD were racing to the bottom regarding management..
 
MSPNWA
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Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:55 am

max999 wrote:
We need something like the EU 261 rules in the US. At least the rules provide a minimum baseline on how airlines should treat and compensate passengers when there are delays.

Currently, US passengers are at the whim of the airlines' callousness.


Used to be I wasn't on board with a EU 261 as I thought was a little harsh, but I'm open to it now. There should be something in place for situations like this. It would force the airlines to truly do all they can. Currently the passenger is the loser, and many are not the ones that can afford to foot the bill like the airline can.
 
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Pellegrine
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Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Sat Aug 24, 2019 3:28 am

tlecam wrote:
My take is that the rules are too lax for delays/cancellations for the airlines. Load factors are so high that cancellations can mean multi-day delays. This leads to the behavior of delaying a flight practically in perpetuity... if you were on an afternoon flight and its delayed to the next day, as a consumer, are you *really* getting what you paid for?

I’ve been flying a lot between both BOS and LGA and ORD and experienced both.

DL delayed an ORD-LGA flight from 5:30 PM until the next day at 8AM.
UA delayed an ORD-BOS flight from roughly 5:30 until after 2AM (for bizarre reasons - the flight at the gate before mine went out on Mx. It took them so long to haul the plane away that ours arriving flight ended up parking at a different gate and being re-purposed. THey kept telling us that they were delayed due to “traffic on the tarmac”. Then there were flight crew issues. Then UA tried to tell me that it was out of their control so no compensation was warranted. I had documented the entire thing, including times of announcements at the gate, what was communicated and name of UA employee. I also escalated it to our corporate travel folks and all of a sudden UA called me singing a very different tune.

Neither are really acceptable from a consumer POV, but consumers have no leverage.


The rules are too lax in the US. I used to be a UA&US FF and I was canceled on CLT-DCA a couple times. Luckily since then ran a flight every hour or so it was no big issue. Otherwise I've never experienced any horror cancellations. Big companies always try to pass the buck (and punish their customer-facing employees) so this is no surprise.
We fly JETS, we don't fly donkeys.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 689
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Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Sat Aug 24, 2019 3:53 am

strfyr51 wrote:
It seems Delta could have flown in another airplane from Atlanta if they wanted to, though some flights do not have the impact on the system and it is sometimes preferable to cancel them rather than to keep them to a rolling delay.

Useless to ferry a plane in, when ATC is not going to let it land anyway.
 
eielef
Posts: 724
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:07 am

Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Sat Aug 24, 2019 4:42 am

If NYC has bad weather and bad airports, and a very crowded airspace, why do you still sell flights connecting in NYC?
Don't offer flights with connection in JFK/EWR/LGA. Do it only with DTW, ORD, IAD, or others.
Make it an airport that follows on the demand (which are close to 20Mio people, most of them very rich) of the area. There was some person complaining he flew with DL on the route LHR-JFK-LAX. Why didn't he bought a LHR-LAX flight, or LHR-ATL-LAX flight. Out from LHR, Delta (if it was the airline the passenger had sympathy) flies also to ATL, BOS, DTW, MSP and SLC. All of these airports offer connections to JFK. Choose a different one. And don't allow the system to sell it, with connection in JFK. Then, less passengers, less flights, less crowded air space, less delays.
 
1989worstyear
Posts: 888
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Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Sat Aug 24, 2019 5:01 am

n562wn wrote:
Pudelhund wrote:
n562wn wrote:

Nowhere close to a 'boomer' in age. Try again.


Yikes, that's even worse. Early onset boomeritis.


If not feeling entitled to any and everything is the definition of 'boomeritis' , guilty as charged.


I grew up in New England and worked at a seafood restaurant during high school, and I remember seeing this type of entitled behavior from people from all ages, and for much less than being delayed 18 hours at JFK.

Since moving to the opposite side of the continent, I've always been shocked at how, in general, people are more willing to let things go that would elicit a completely different response from someone from Boston or NY.

If you really want to generalize a whole group of people for having this attitude, I would say white people in the Northeast US have this problem across all cohorts. The various tantrums are just displayed differently, as Millennials usually complain on some stupid social media platform for the news to make "trending story" out of.



EDIT: Does anyone know how long the tech delay was?
Last edited by 1989worstyear on Sat Aug 24, 2019 5:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
ryanov
Posts: 236
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2012 4:38 am

Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Sat Aug 24, 2019 5:02 am

n562wn wrote:
gatibosgru wrote:
n562wn wrote:

The 'every kid gets a trophy' generation is all grown up and these are the results. To be fair, it's not really their fault. It's all they've ever known.


Ok Boomer


Nowhere close to a 'boomer' in age. Try again.


Prematurely senile of some other cause then. I suppose this generation gave themselves trophies?

There's not only no evidence that this has nothing to do with what has happened at the airport, the whole idea is stupid. Find me a person on earth whose self-esteem is wrapped up in whether they received a participation trophy. My guess is people winning real trophies are a lot more concerned about them.

Can you leave this garbage out of future posts please so that people can have an adult discussion?
 
ryanov
Posts: 236
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2012 4:38 am

Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Sat Aug 24, 2019 5:13 am

DFW17L wrote:
TW870 wrote:
Three factors shape how this impacts passengers.

1. The passenger's frequent flyer status on the airline
2. The passenger's knowledge about how airlines and hotels work
3. The passenger's disposable income

The best strategy in these situations is to GET OUT of the airport. If you have a club membership, go there and the agents will help you with any issues you have. Otherwise, just get online, book a hotel, hail a car, get to the hotel, chill out, and rebook through the app. Many people with a phone and computer can work remote anyway, so you will get much more done if you leave the situation. The problem, though, is that not everyone has access to a lounge, not everyone knows how to do all of these things, and not everyone has the money to book a hotel - even if the airline pays you back (DL has paid me back for a hotel). Its like most things in the U.S. now where the gap between the haves and the have-nots is very wide, and shapes how these experiences work. I have bailed on NYC airports twice just this year alone, coming back the next day and getting right to my destination. I could care less if they delay 10 or 22 or 1000 hours, I am not going to wait to watch it all happen. But I realize that not everyone is able to avoid these situations - which I think is the core of the problem.

+1

And be proactive. If you think you're going to be impacted by weather or equipment, book a hotel before they fill up. You can always cancel if you are going to take-off after all. And in the case of ORD, head over to Term 5...the taxi queues are much shorter.


In the case of ORD, head over to the L. You'll probably be there before the guy who waits in any taxi line.

It's very true that part of the problem is that you have to act immediately, and even then, load factors are so high that the majority of the time I'm offered the opportunity to rebook on Delta, there are no other reasonable options. They are very good at filling their planes now, and that's one of the consequences. Someone who doesn't fly much doesn't really stand a chance -- most of the lessons I know I learned the hard way. Who that doesn't fly regularly would know that sometimes you need to find your own itinerary, either on the airline website or elsewhere, and possibly call on the phone to make someone give it to you? Delta also seems to have tightened up their originally very liberal delay-related rebooking policy. I used to frequently rebook out of EWR (I live in Newark) when I had an LGA or JFK flight that was delayed 15 minutes on departure. I think nowadays you have be delayed quite a bit longer on the arrival side, and I'm not sure if you can still change airports.

It's an excellent point that not everyone has the disposable income to make good moves, particularly not in the NYC area. I typically like Delta's customer service, but I've frequently needed to write them a letter or contact them on Twitter to correct an originally poor response to an incident. That may not be an option for someone who doesn't have the flexibility to lay out significant money in the meantime.
 
whisperjet727
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2009 5:48 am

Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Sat Aug 24, 2019 5:32 am

1989worstyear wrote:
n562wn wrote:
Pudelhund wrote:

Yikes, that's even worse. Early onset boomeritis.


If not feeling entitled to any and everything is the definition of 'boomeritis' , guilty as charged.


I grew up in New England and worked at a seafood restaurant during high school, and I remember seeing this type of entitled behavior from people from all ages, and for much less than being delayed 18 hours at JFK.

Since moving to the opposite side of the continent, I've always been shocked at how, in general, people are more willing to let things go that would elicit a completely different response from someone from Boston or NY.

If you really want to generalize a whole group of people for having this attitude, I would say white people in the Northeast US have this problem across all cohorts. The various tantrums are just displayed differently, as Millennials usually complain on some stupid social media platform for the news to make "trending story" out of.



EDIT: Does anyone know how long the tech delay was?

Entitled Northeasterners? Cmon out to California for a visit! I’ll show some entitlement!
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3552
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:05 am

enilria wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Was supposed to leave at 15:30 on Wednesday, left at 09:20 on Thursday; that's 18 hours, not 22 hours.

Regardless, ouch... Mechanical, then weather, then crew scheduling; the holes in the cheese did line up on this one.

Mechanical issues are often impossible to predict when they'll be solved; however, weather and crew scheduling can usually be predicted hours in advance with very reasonable accuracy. Sounds like DL should have been more straight forward when communicating with the pax.

Pretty sure if the flight leaves the following day it counts as cancelled.


Delta reports they flight as delayed so they can maintain a claim they do not Cancel flights like their compeditors. Makes them look good in the news as they usually can hide the fact of how delayed the flight was. Just have to report the flight was delayed more than 15 min. If it get cancelled it ruins the no cancelled flight record.
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3552
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:07 am

IPFreely wrote:
I have limited sympathy for passengers who booked this flight. Looking at DL 975, it was 1 1/2 hours late Sunday, 3 1/2 hours late Monday, 18 hours late Wednesday, and 7 1/2 hours late (and counting) today. In a case like this, past results are a pretty good indicator of future performance.


Yes but at least it was not Cancelled! lol
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3552
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:11 am

enilria wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Was supposed to leave at 15:30 on Wednesday, left at 09:20 on Thursday; that's 18 hours, not 22 hours.

Regardless, ouch... Mechanical, then weather, then crew scheduling; the holes in the cheese did line up on this one.

Mechanical issues are often impossible to predict when they'll be solved; however, weather and crew scheduling can usually be predicted hours in advance with very reasonable accuracy. Sounds like DL should have been more straight forward when communicating with the pax.

Pretty sure if the flight leaves the following day it counts as cancelled.


As long as it leaves under the same flight number and was not cancelled it counts as just 15 min or more late. Sorta like when McDonalds sold burgers "made from 100% beef" they never said they did not have additives & fillers, just "Made with." People tend to not notice no additive would be 100% pure beef, not made with. Sheeple at their best. Maketers know that.
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3552
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:14 am

dmstorm22 wrote:
enilria wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Was supposed to leave at 15:30 on Wednesday, left at 09:20 on Thursday; that's 18 hours, not 22 hours.

Regardless, ouch... Mechanical, then weather, then crew scheduling; the holes in the cheese did line up on this one.

Mechanical issues are often impossible to predict when they'll be solved; however, weather and crew scheduling can usually be predicted hours in advance with very reasonable accuracy. Sounds like DL should have been more straight forward when communicating with the pax.

Pretty sure if the flight leaves the following day it counts as cancelled.


It's gotta be a # of hours threshold I image??

Otherwise a 10pm flight delayed to 1am would count?


No threshold. They could delay it for 2 days as long as it's flight number stayed with the plane. Even if the next days flight left on time. It cheapens Delta's reputation.
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3552
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:20 am

zippy wrote:
HPAEAA wrote:
Interesting & good to know, but that hasn’t been my experience though at JFK.. I had a 16 hour delay on my JFK-SEA flight due to weather about a month ago and was offered nothing other than 10k medallion miles (and that included a 4 hour sight seeing tour of JFK on the plane)


When my Delta flight JFK-SFO was delayed due to the windstorms at SFO, the gate staff were all quite accommodating and got me rebooked on the next SFO bound flight. Plenty of folks were doing the same thing and the only thing left was a middle seat so I just rebooked on a late morning flight the following day and went into Manhattan for the evening. Sure, I did a ton of walking between T2/T4 but otherwise it wasn't a terrible experience. I'm pretty sure both the delayed flights took off eventually that same day.

Getting stuck on the plane would be terrible, but an overnight delay at JFK? There are much, much worse things.


Yes, like getting stuck inside LGA.
 
777Mech
Posts: 917
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:54 pm

Re: DL angers pax at JFK

Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:46 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
777Mech wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
This type of stuff isn't really all that uncommon. Delta has had a run of bad PR with delayed flights, on board riots, and airplanes cracking on arrival in the last week. Maybe some of the brilliance is starting to tarnish?


What airplanes are cracking on arrival?


https://flightaware.com/squawks/view/1/ ... yto=233998


That's not a crack, but if it is, poster said airplanes. What other airplane has been "cracking"

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