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readytotaxi
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Re: BA pilots to strike, 9-10 27 September.

Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:55 pm

18:50 and next aircraft due in at LHR is a Singapore flight in 9 minutes, SO many gaps this time of night, very quiet.
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Seabear
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Re: BA pilots to strike, 9-10 27 September.

Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:02 pm

Millions of cubicle dwellers, slaving away the days for a measly paycheck and a bleak future, are undoubtedly wailing and gnashing teeth over the plight of these poor pilots that can't make due on 200k/year.
 
bgm
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Re: BA pilots to strike, 9-10 27 September.

Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:19 pm

Seabear wrote:
Millions of cubicle dwellers, slaving away the days for a measly paycheck and a bleak future, are undoubtedly wailing and gnashing teeth over the plight of these poor pilots that can't make due on 200k/year.


You mean like the hospital receptionist and the surgeon?

Do you know how much it costs to go through pilot training?

Do the people operating in those cubicles have hundreds of lives on their shoulders each time they go to work?

Contrary to the ‘button pushing’ or ‘autopilot monitoring’ crap that people keep spouting, pilots are highly skilled professionals that should be compensated as such. If you don’t believe me, go and try landing a plane sometime and then get back to us.
████ ███ █ ███████ ██ █ █████ ██ ████ [redacted]
 
flightuk
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Re: BA pilots to strike, 9-10 27 September.

Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:35 pm

BA777FO wrote:
flightuk wrote:
Interesting points and all validate, however, 4% year on year for 3 years is the UK average? really.... I find that very hard to believe.


I quoted the BBC article detailing news today that the average UK pay award was 3.8% or 4% including bonuses versus last year.

flightuk wrote:
go and tell your tale to any doctor or nurse, to any production manager, to any IT project manager, to an ambulance driver, to any policeman, to any soldier and see what they say


I get the point about those in the military deployed overseas but how many doctors or ambulance drivers are away from home for 91 hours at a time? How many of them plan their lives around being gone for only 48 hours but after the first day then find out you'll be gone another 24 hours due to "disruption"? A 24 hours when you'd made plans, possibly expensive or unavoidable/immovable plans?

How many of those, again, aside from those military personnel deployed overseas miss Christmas completely almost every other year? Any other shift worker can get a chance to see their kids in the morning before work or in the evening when they get home. Not quite so easy when you've reported for a trip to Shanghai or Riyadh on the 23rd December and are not due back until the 27th.

This isn't the worst job in the world, but pilots make immense sacrifices on their health, family and finances for decades. The days of flying 400 hours a year and retiring at 55 on a full salary pension are long gone. It'd be nice if more people realised it as an industry-wide issue.


I can't really argue with your points, they are good points and well made, perhaps I have an out of date perception of Airline pilots, especially BA pilots (I say BA pilots as I have always held them in the highest regard). Your problem is the general public still see you guys as very privileged with fantastic lifestyles. If I have that perception then the general public most certainly has. It's quite sad listening to your description of the job and how it has changed over the years. That's a real shame, I for one would feel more comfortable knowing that the crew up front are happy in their work.

Good luck to you all :-)
 
DobboDobbo
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Re: BA pilots to strike, 9-10 27 September.

Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:44 pm

I think many of the issues raised by this strike can be traced back to the difficulty of trying to operate significant elements of BA (including but not limited to short haul) on the lines of a lo cost carrier, whilst wearing the colours a full service carrier and being based at by far the most expensive major airport in Europe.

If runway 3 ever happens, the influx of EasyJet et al might well undermine much of BA’s business model.
 
VV
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Re: BA pilots to strike, 9-10 27 September.

Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:49 pm

APYu wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
VV wrote:
It is probably because only containerized baggage is allowed at LHR terminal 5.


)))

No idea where they will fly all those MAX's to then ;)


To Gatwick, Madrid and Dublin


Oh, so there are airports where containerized baggage is not mandatory.
Shocking...
 
LAXLHR
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Re: BA pilots to strike, 9-10 27 September.

Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:53 pm

DWC wrote:
CPHFF wrote:
Although I agree that employees should be gratified when a Company is doing well if they made sacrifices during hard times, the quote from CNN/BA made me think otherwise:

"The average salary for a BA Captain is £167,000 [$206,000] plus flying allowances. The offer of 11.5% would take the average salary to £202,000," a BA spokesperson said. A first officer earns £90,000 on average, the spokesperson said.

That is not much living in the London area, specially after how much it costs to actually become a pilot.
I lived in downtown London, rent was twice a month & four times higher than in downtown Paris less than an hour flight away.
Now, £206.000 in BKK & you live a local prince. Not so in SIN or Brunei.

Virtual737 wrote:
When did society enter the arena? BA isn't a society. The pilots are not striking for the greater good of the UK so why widen the scope to anything other than the entity that is BA?

Seems you speak english only & do not read well.
I did not say "society" but "societies" ( i.e. human groups ) & went on remarking that "society" is the word for "private company" in other tongues, like French "société", spanish "sociedad", german "Gesellschaft" where they all mean both, same for chinese "Kongci" or japanese "Kaisha", both actually written with different characters but sharing the society or common idea. In English, "Company" also has that social aspect if you ever kept anyone company.
Those who think businesses are only about efficiency or making money walk past their lives.
A company is also where you spend at least over half of your daily hours when not sleeping, it better be rewarding in other aspects than just salary & perks.


Ummm no such thing as DOWNTOWN London or Paris. Central London, perhaps even the center of London. Same goes for Paris. ;-)
BA IB ET JM EA GK PA VS AA SN HP CO W7 WN NW DL UA AC US LH LX OS JL QF QR WY MH CX U2 EK 9W UK TP VY VN LO OK OZ UL SQ LA

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findingnema
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Re: BA pilots to strike, 9-10 27 September.

Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:38 pm

VV wrote:
APYu wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:

)))

No idea where they will fly all those MAX's to then ;)


To Gatwick, Madrid and Dublin


Oh, so there are airports where containerized baggage is not mandatory.
Shocking...


No, however per the original post about IAG’s 737 MAX LOI, Terminal 5 is only geared up for containerised luggage - which was what BA had specified. Hence non-containerised aircraft being initially clustered at T3 and Gatwick. It would cost significant amounts to amend the infrastructure to bring the MAX to T5, hence it going to Gatwick and vueling.
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goboeing
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Re: BA pilots to strike, 9-10 27 September.

Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:54 pm

Seabear wrote:
Millions of cubicle dwellers, slaving away the days for a measly paycheck and a bleak future, are undoubtedly wailing and gnashing teeth over the plight of these poor pilots that can't make due on 200k/year.


It doesn't matter what they think.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: BA pilots to strike, 9-10 27 September.

Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:03 pm

I’m amazed at how poor BA pilot pay is now, I had assumed they made US rates. Pre-tax, they’re half to two-thirds of US pilots; easily half after taxes. The USD 250,000 bizjet captain is becoming more common on the coasts. They should be on strike and not for three days, until BA gives up.

GF
 
Amsterdam
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Re: BA pilots to strike, 9-10 27 September.

Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:07 pm

Seabear wrote:
Millions of cubicle dwellers, slaving away the days for a measly paycheck and a bleak future, are undoubtedly wailing and gnashing teeth over the plight of these poor pilots that can't make due on 200k/year.


I dont know about this argument.
This argument can be applied to almost any profession, job or activity.
 
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par13del
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Re: BA pilots to strike, 9-10 27 September.

Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:38 pm

Seabear wrote:
Millions of cubicle dwellers, slaving away the days for a measly paycheck and a bleak future, are undoubtedly wailing and gnashing teeth over the plight of these poor pilots that can't make due on 200k/year.

...and I am betting that all of them if they had the power to shut down their employer to get a better wage and benefits would do so in a minute.
Harsh reality is that most others resent the fact that if we go on strike we are easily replaced, so since we cannot complain about our lack of power to our employer we do the next best thing.
The value of a pilot to BA is what they want and BA is willing to pay, not how much other professions values their services.

Until we have a communal society where every one pays their fair share of tax and the masses determine salaries and benefits for all except politicians, we have the society that we have.
 
eidvm
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Re: BA pilots to strike, 9-10 27 September.

Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:15 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
I'm not trying to stir the pot (for once, honest), but given the high turnout and the high positive count for the strike then surely there must be a lot of relatively new hires that voted in favour.

ie. pilots who knew the wages / perks / hours were less beneficial than in days gone by and were not affected by a previous pay cut yet still took up a contract and still voted in favour to strike? If that is the case, I wonder how much pressure there would have been on them from peers to support the strike and not face the potential lifelong label of scab.


Well you can’t really effect any change/improvement from the outside, you’ve got to be in it to actually make a difference, no point sitting on the sideline complaining.

Though from the outside looking in at the way their management has been talking to the press about their pilots and punishing them with the withdrawal of staff travel, the increases in fleet freezes and the suspension of bidline rules I’m not surprised even the newest of joiners haven’t already become totally demoralised and disenfranchised, especially those who thought they were joining the pinnacle of British aviation.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: BA pilots to strike, 9-10 27 September.

Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:24 am

par13del wrote:
Seabear wrote:
Millions of cubicle dwellers, slaving away the days for a measly paycheck and a bleak future, are undoubtedly wailing and gnashing teeth over the plight of these poor pilots that can't make due on 200k/year.

...and I am betting that all of them if they had the power to shut down their employer to get a better wage and benefits would do so in a minute.
Harsh reality is that most others resent the fact that if we go on strike we are easily replaced, so since we cannot complain about our lack of power to our employer we do the next best thing.
The value of a pilot to BA is what they want and BA is willing to pay, not how much other professions values their services.

Until we have a communal society where every one pays their fair share of tax and the masses determine salaries and benefits for all except politicians, we have the society that we have.


Are you proposing 60 million Britons should vote on the BA crew pay? BTW, everyone that doesn’t fiddle their income for tax purposes pays their “fair” share which is what the law demands.

GF
 
geologyrocks
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Re: BA pilots to strike, 9-10 27 September.

Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:30 am

If you're unhappy with the pilots then stop booking with British. That's what you actually have the power to do -- you can spend your money elsewhere. All this other talk about how you don't make as much as them and blah blah blah blah...get yourself qualified to get a better job then.
 
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par13del
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Re: BA pilots to strike, 9-10 27 September.

Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:38 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Are you proposing 60 million Britons should vote on the BA crew pay? BTW, everyone that doesn’t fiddle their income for tax purposes pays their “fair” share which is what the law demands.

GF

No, I was saying that utopia that folks like to talk about ain't happening, as for the tax thing, in the last few years that's all you hear about, see the
issue folks have with executive compensation, etc etc etc. all under the guise of fair share, Google, Amazon, JRM etc etc
 
Dieuwer
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Re: BA pilots to strike, 9-10 27 September.

Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:47 am

"The 13-strong Balpa union board who ordered the strike, six live in France, Spain or Ireland. Militant union negotiator newlywed Mark Keane, who backed strikes in previous roles with Ryanair and Norwegian Air, lives in Dublin."

So much for paying your fair share of taxes, right?
 
BA777FO
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Re: BA pilots to strike, 9-10 27 September.

Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:59 am

Dieuwer wrote:
"The 13-strong Balpa union board who ordered the strike, six live in France, Spain or Ireland. Militant union negotiator newlywed Mark Keane, who backed strikes in previous roles with Ryanair and Norwegian Air, lives in Dublin."

So much for paying your fair share of taxes, right?


It is in accordance with air and maritime employees and international tax treaties, subject to the UK residency test. As some of the working day involves time spent in the UK and UK airspace the UK can lay claim to some income for tax purposes. The rest spent outside the UK will be tax payable to your country of residency. This is all above board and in accordance with the law - generally you're liable for tax where you are a permanent resident as you consume the services of the country of which you are a permanent resident rather than a temporary visitor. Some of them will be paying higher tax burdens than if they lived full time in the UK.

I wouldn't believe everything you read in The Sun ;)
 
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SierraPacific
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Re: BA pilots to strike, 9-10 27 September.

Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:25 am

bgm wrote:
Seabear wrote:
Millions of cubicle dwellers, slaving away the days for a measly paycheck and a bleak future, are undoubtedly wailing and gnashing teeth over the plight of these poor pilots that can't make due on 200k/year.


You mean like the hospital receptionist and the surgeon?

Do you know how much it costs to go through pilot training?

Do the people operating in those cubicles have hundreds of lives on their shoulders each time they go to work?

Contrary to the ‘button pushing’ or ‘autopilot monitoring’ crap that people keep spouting, pilots are highly skilled professionals that should be compensated as such. If you don’t believe me, go and try landing a plane sometime and then get back to us.


You are never going to convince these people because they refuse to learn about the sheer complexity of operating a jet with 300 people in the back. They will never understand the work that it takes to get to the point of flying for BA coupled with the immense debt that most junior pilots have.

I agree with you 100%, BA management could have ended this at any time before this strike but would rather shut down the airline rather than pay their highly skilled professionals comparably to other carriers in the western world. The blame lies squarely on management's shoulders here. FYI for the people that don't see how BA pay is not even close to major airline pay status, my regional pays 60-70k a year for an FO and over 100k a year USD for a captain starting in the states to fly a 50 seat jet so more than an a320 right seat at BA.

(You would think that an aviation site would be better than the button pushing drivel but I guess not)
 
emiratesdriver
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Re: BA pilots to strike, 9-10 27 September.

Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:18 pm

Oops, old Alex looking somewhat of a hypocrite

https://metro.co.uk/2019/09/09/ba-chief ... -10712855/

As a pilot, I couldn’t give 2 hoots about what the great unwashed think of my remuneration or my status in society compared to others. The simple reality is, BA have gotten greedy and their shareholders and management teams need to be taught a lesson on engaging in open and fair negotiations...all the rest is noise, irrelevant noise.
 
BA174
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Re: BA pilots to strike, 9-10 27 September.

Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:04 pm

TXMikeDC wrote:
I assume this is why BA’s BWI-LHR flight last night and LHR-BWI flight today are cancelled. Any idea why BA switched from a 787 to a 777 on the route a couple weeks ago?


I presume it’s to do with the ongoing 787 issues during the high season. Interesting to see the use of G-VIIP which is not even a Heathrow regular let alone in Baltimore, In fact I would guess that this is probably the first time it has operated in scheduled service from LHR.
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: BA pilots to strike, 9-10 27 September.

Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:22 pm

BravoOne wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
starguy wrote:
I hope the pilots win, and by that I mean an agreement being reached and the strikes getting called off. Win win!

The supply of pilots in Europe is not the same as in the US. Euro Pilots are coming to the states in droves for more money due to the shortage, while a kid in the UK has to CFI and work in a bar for years, even decades, for the slim hope of a slot at BA, or most any other European major.



Not so sure about the "coming in droves" statement. Most airlines would require citizenship, if not a right to work permit, not to mention a conversion to FAA certificates. It can be done, but its not as easy as one might imagine. Also some significant $$$ involved in this process.

Green card and licensing not that hard to get, especially if you have a sponsor, such as a regional airline.
 
BravoOne
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Re: BA pilots to strike, 9-10 27 September.

Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:49 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
The supply of pilots in Europe is not the same as in the US. Euro Pilots are coming to the states in droves for more money due to the shortage, while a kid in the UK has to CFI and work in a bar for years, even decades, for the slim hope of a slot at BA, or most any other European major.



Not so sure about the "coming in droves" statement. Most airlines would require citizenship, if not a right to work permit, not to mention a conversion to FAA certificates. It can be done, but its not as easy as one might imagine. Also some significant $$$ involved in this process.

Green card and licensing not that hard to get, especially if you have a sponsor, such as a regional airline.


There are few regional sponsers, and it's not a matter of showing up at the nearest FAA office and having your tickets exchanged for FAA issued certificates. Yes it can be done, but the words "in droves" is very misleading. Why they would be looking for a non US pilot is beyond me as there are plenty of qualified pilots available here in the US.
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: BA pilots to strike, 9-10 27 September.

Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:57 am

According to an English newspaper they have exclusive information that BALPA plan a new 10 day strike in November.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/travel/9917690 ... k-airline/

The union clearly want to strengthen their hand in future negotiations, would be a terrible blow to airline reputation if that went ahead.
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BA777FO
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Re: BA pilots to strike, 9-10 27 September.

Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:01 am

readytotaxi wrote:
According to an English newspaper they have exclusive information that BALPA plan a new 10 day strike in November.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/travel/9917690 ... k-airline/

The union clearly want to strengthen their hand in future negotiations, would be a terrible blow to airline reputation if that went ahead.


Balpa has already responded to The Sun. As usual, The Sun's coverage overall has been awful.

https://twitter.com/BALPApilots/status/ ... 61634?s=20
 
LiasLia
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Re: BA pilots to strike, 9-10 27 September.

Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:01 am

I saw BBC news. All the British airways planes were grounded on the runways in England. The pilots strike has began.
 
maps4ltd
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Re: BA pilots to strike, 9-10 27 September.

Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:14 pm

BALPA sucks. Cruz sucks. Yes, there needs to be a management shakeup, but shame on BALPA for not accepting an 11% wage increase for the sole purpose of being whiny hypocrites.
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Junglejames
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Re: BA pilots to strike, 9-10 27 September.

Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:33 pm

APYu wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
VV wrote:
It is probably because only containerized baggage is allowed at LHR terminal 5.


)))

No idea where they will fly all those MAX's to then ;)


To Gatwick, Madrid and Dublin
Does anyone still really think they are arriving?
From the start, I saw it as a clever tactic to get some heavy discounts from Airbus.
Unless of course they have since been confirmed.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
 
Junglejames
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Re: BA pilots to strike, 9-10 27 September.

Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:42 pm

BA777FO wrote:
DAL763ER wrote:
I'm sorry, £167k is not much living in the London area? Do you think everyone living in London makes more than that?


I'm sorry, do you think every BA pilot makes £167k?

A cadet pilot starts on £26,300. Remember they have training debt of ~£120,000.

A short haul captain starts on £78,000. At Gatwick, they're pay capped at £125,000...after 23 years service! Only after 12 years service will a short haul captain earn over £100,000. For camparison, time to command at easyJet is ~5 years depending on base and easyJet base salary for a captain is £108,000. That'll take a BA pilot 15 years. That pay cap of £125,000 for Gatwick pilots...easyJet captains top out at £147,000.

That £167,000 salary requires a longhaul command and 31 years service. Most pilots that reach that length of service will most likely have to go part time so actually taking home far less - flying 900 hours a year on longhaul in your 60s is seriously bad for your health. Virgin are only contracted to 750 hours a year and earn similar amounts. For the same money a BA pilot is required to fly the equivilent to an extra BOS round trip each month compared to a Virgin pilot. And this is without a lot of other issues regarding T&Cs.

Those are just UK comparisons. Compared to AF, LH, KLM and the US3 the difference is even more stark.

There's a lot more going on that I can't say, but there's a lot of misinformation out there. It's not quite as clear cut as some seem to think.
You want a share of the COOs salary?!!!!!

Now in all seriousness, that info on wages brings it all into perspective (I still think Capts get too much though!!!). Because let's be honest, if you want any pilot up front, it's a BA pilot.


Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
 
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readytotaxi
Topic Author
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Re: BA pilots to strike, 9-10 27 September.

Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:44 pm

The strike on 27th has been called off.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49744833
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Molykote
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Re: BA pilots to strike, 9-10 27 September.

Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:19 pm

Dalmd88 wrote:
I really don't understand why companies are so dead set against profit sharing. It is a win for both sides. By giving profit sharing instead of a huge raise they only pay out when the airline makes money. With the huge raise they are committed to pay those rates when the economy tanks then next time. Sure they can walk them back, but that usually only occurs months after the losses have begun piling up.

With profit sharing they just say, sorry didn't make profit this quarter, no bonus.


Profit sharing is great, but it requires discipline on a company's part. It can become a "fuzzy" number in negotiations (that usually ends up costing a company additional money as the line between salary and incentive blurs) and it can be used as a club to beat management with when payouts aren't met (even if fairly administered on agreeable terms up front - even if this is irrational, it's a political reality... or at least can be).
Speedtape - The aspirin of aviation!
 
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millionsofmiles
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Re: Updated: BA pilots call off strike on September 27th, 2019

Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:35 pm

LOLing at BA pilots’ chest-beating about the evils of BA management when they sided with the company during the flight attendant strike of 2010.

Hypocrites.
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: BA pilots to strike, 9-10 27 September.

Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:56 pm

readytotaxi wrote:
The strike on 27th has been called off.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49744833


I don't know if this is better or worse.

Reinstating cancelled flights now is a bit too late, most passengers would have been rebooked by now.

Trying to fill the aircraft in a bit over a week is quite impossible.
They're damned if they don't fly the schedule but if they fly the schedule with empty aircraft, it's even worse.

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