AngelsDecay
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QS 737-800 Flies for Nearly 2 1/2 Hours with One Engine Out

Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:14 pm

What the hell...seems a lil bit crazy, with "tons" of available and possilble RWY's below...

https://avherald.com/h?article=4cbe8434 ... OoRBqbp6j8
Last edited by SQ22 on Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Title was a bit hard to understand
 
FriscoHeavy
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Re: Smartwings does Europe for almost 2'n'Half hours single engine..!??

Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:36 pm

I'd have to have further proof that this happened as standard procedure on a twin engined plane calls for it to divert to the nearest suitable airfield. Given the region it was in, I doubt 2:20 flight time was the closes place to put the bird down.
Whatever
 
mpdpilot
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Re: Smartwings does Europe for almost 2'n'Half hours single engine..!??

Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:38 pm

Without knowing more I could think of quite a few reasons to continue.

1. time to complete checklists/restart (article said they attempted at least 3 restarts) by the time they decided to land, Prague might have been best option. Other large airports might have been equally far by then.
2. weight, shorter flights tend to be landing weight limited so perhaps they would have needed to burn fuel before landing might as well continue if you going to just fly around.
3. maintenance, were they headed to their maintenance base?
4. sure their are a lot of airports in Europe but are all of them good diversion airports? Surely a single engine failure would require an attempt at a 50' wide GA strip?

Doesn't seem too crazy to me being that the aircraft can handle the extra flying and should the final engine fail, they had "plenty" of places to divert to
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
 
aircatalonia
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Re: Smartwings does Europe for almost 2'n'Half hours single engine..!??

Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:44 pm

Image
 
mpdpilot
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Re: Smartwings does Europe for almost 2'n'Half hours single engine..!??

Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:44 pm

Looking at the flight on flightradar24 it does appear that they went direct Prague after descending to FL240. And there were many large airports along their flight path.

Burning fuel is the only thing that makes sense to me. If I have to burn 2hrs of fuel to get below MLW, might as well fly to Prague.

Also if I am going to fly around burning fuel, I am going to do it as high as I can. They will have a lot more options if they loose the final engine at FL240 then at 10000'.
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
 
BlueberryWheats
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Re: Smartwings flies 737-800 for almost 2'n'Half hours single engine..!??

Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:57 pm

For a flight of that length surely it wouldn't be at MTOW, would it?

I don't have the exact numbers, but IIRC the MLW isn't that far below the MTOW for the 738 (unless I am much mistaken), so I'd have thought they'd likely already be below MLW at the time of the incident.
 
barney captain
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Re: Smartwings does Europe for almost 2'n'Half hours single engine..!??

Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:59 pm

mpdpilot wrote:
Looking at the flight on flightradar24 it does appear that they went direct Prague after descending to FL240. And there were many large airports along their flight path.

Burning fuel is the only thing that makes sense to me. If I have to burn 2hrs of fuel to get below MLW, might as well fly to Prague.

Also if I am going to fly around burning fuel, I am going to do it as high as I can. They will have a lot more options if they loose the final engine at FL240 then at 10000'.


In the 737 with one engine shut down, you land at the nearest suitable airport and land overweight if necessary. You would never fly around on one engine solely to burn off fuel.

I hope there's more to this story.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
ScottB
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Re: Smartwings does Europe for almost 2'n'Half hours single engine..!??

Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:13 pm

mpdpilot wrote:
Without knowing more I could think of quite a few reasons to continue.

1. time to complete checklists/restart (article said they attempted at least 3 restarts) by the time they decided to land, Prague might have been best option. Other large airports might have been equally far by then.
2. weight, shorter flights tend to be landing weight limited so perhaps they would have needed to burn fuel before landing might as well continue if you going to just fly around.
3. maintenance, were they headed to their maintenance base?
4. sure their are a lot of airports in Europe but are all of them good diversion airports? Surely a single engine failure would require an attempt at a 50' wide GA strip?


Pretty much only the fourth one is a valid reason. Even if you're trying to relight the engine, you still need to figure out where you're diverting if that doesn't work. You can land the plane even if you're above MLW; there's a checklist for an overweight landing and the plane just requires some extra inspections (and potentially repair) after. You put the aircraft down on the nearest suitable runway, regardless of whether it's a maintenance base. Suitable runway is an important distinction, so you're not trying to land on a 1000x15m strip, but it beggars belief that there was nothing between SKG and PRG.
 
mpdpilot
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Re: Smartwings does Europe for almost 2'n'Half hours single engine..!??

Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:14 pm

barney captain wrote:
mpdpilot wrote:
Looking at the flight on flightradar24 it does appear that they went direct Prague after descending to FL240. And there were many large airports along their flight path.

Burning fuel is the only thing that makes sense to me. If I have to burn 2hrs of fuel to get below MLW, might as well fly to Prague.

Also if I am going to fly around burning fuel, I am going to do it as high as I can. They will have a lot more options if they loose the final engine at FL240 then at 10000'.


In the 737 with one engine shut down, you land at the nearest suitable airport and land overweight if necessary. You would never fly around on one engine solely to burn off fuel.

I hope there's more to this story.


Is it safe to assume you are an actual airline captain? If so I am curious if you say "land overweight if necessary" what would be a good reason to continue the flight to Prague?
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
 
mpdpilot
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Re: Smartwings does Europe for almost 2'n'Half hours single engine..!??

Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:19 pm

ScottB wrote:
mpdpilot wrote:
Without knowing more I could think of quite a few reasons to continue.

1. time to complete checklists/restart (article said they attempted at least 3 restarts) by the time they decided to land, Prague might have been best option. Other large airports might have been equally far by then.
2. weight, shorter flights tend to be landing weight limited so perhaps they would have needed to burn fuel before landing might as well continue if you going to just fly around.
3. maintenance, were they headed to their maintenance base?
4. sure their are a lot of airports in Europe but are all of them good diversion airports? Surely a single engine failure would require an attempt at a 50' wide GA strip?


Pretty much only the fourth one is a valid reason. Even if you're trying to relight the engine, you still need to figure out where you're diverting if that doesn't work. You can land the plane even if you're above MLW; there's a checklist for an overweight landing and the plane just requires some extra inspections (and potentially repair) after. You put the aircraft down on the nearest suitable runway, regardless of whether it's a maintenance base. Suitable runway is an important distinction, so you're not trying to land on a 1000x15m strip, but it beggars belief that there was nothing between SKG and PRG.


Same question to you, if you agree that an over MLW landing is appropriate why would you continue? Looking at the Flightradar map, there were plenty of alternates?

To our other captains out there, I am curious about making a landing above MLW. Not about personal preference, but about actual procedure. I have heard a lot of conflicting statements about when to burn fuel and when to land overweight.
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
 
holczakker
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Re: Smartwings flies 737-800 for almost 2'n'Half hours single engine..!??

Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:25 pm

To the people assuming there were no suitable airports around capable to handle a "huge" B738: they passed Athens, Thessaloniki, Sofia, Skopje, Belgrade, Timisoara, Budapest, Vienna, Bratislava, Brno (all big international airports handling 747s or even 380s regularly) and another dozen easily suitable for a 737 at any time (PVD, INI, TGD, SKP, SJJ, TZL, CRA, OSI, SOB etc etc). No way on earth that suitability of a diversion airport was the reason, they could have landed anywhere en-route per the SOP of every operators in the world.
BTW a poster (a hungarian ATCO) on avherald states that they flew over Serbia and Hungary without even advising ATC that they had an engine failure.
 
barney captain
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Re: Smartwings does Europe for almost 2'n'Half hours single engine..!??

Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:36 pm

mpdpilot wrote:
barney captain wrote:
mpdpilot wrote:
Looking at the flight on flightradar24 it does appear that they went direct Prague after descending to FL240. And there were many large airports along their flight path.

Burning fuel is the only thing that makes sense to me. If I have to burn 2hrs of fuel to get below MLW, might as well fly to Prague.

Also if I am going to fly around burning fuel, I am going to do it as high as I can. They will have a lot more options if they loose the final engine at FL240 then at 10000'.


In the 737 with one engine shut down, you land at the nearest suitable airport and land overweight if necessary. You would never fly around on one engine solely to burn off fuel.

I hope there's more to this story.


Is it safe to assume you are an actual airline captain? If so I am curious if you say "land overweight if necessary" what would be a good reason to continue the flight to Prague?


Yes, and to be honest, I can't think of any reason not to follow the QRH (and common sense) and land asap.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
mpdpilot
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Re: Smartwings flies 737-800 for almost 2'n'Half hours single engine..!??

Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:41 pm

barney captain wrote:
mpdpilot wrote:
barney captain wrote:

In the 737 with one engine shut down, you land at the nearest suitable airport and land overweight if necessary. You would never fly around on one engine solely to burn off fuel.

I hope there's more to this story.


Is it safe to assume you are an actual airline captain? If so I am curious if you say "land overweight if necessary" what would be a good reason to continue the flight to Prague?


Yes, and to be honest, I can't think of any reason not to follow the QRH (and common sense) and land asap.


Yeah that was my first thought, after that, the only thing that made sense was getting below MLW, but even that seems like a stretch.

holczakker wrote:
To the people assuming there were no suitable airports around capable to handle a "huge" B738: they passed Athens, Thessaloniki, Sofia, Skopje, Belgrade, Timisoara, Budapest, Vienna, Bratislava, Brno (all big international airports handling 747s or even 380s regularly) and another dozen easily suitable for a 737 at any time (PVD, INI, TGD, SKP, SJJ, TZL, CRA, OSI, SOB etc etc). No way on earth that suitability of a diversion airport was the reason, they could have landed anywhere en-route per the SOP of every operators in the world.
BTW a poster (a hungarian ATCO) on avherald states that they flew over Serbia and Hungary without even advising ATC that they had an engine failure.


Thank you for the breakdown for us not familiar with the area, after looking at the track, it is obvious that they overflew a large number of suitable alternates.
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
 
ZKCIF
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Re: Smartwings flies 737-800 for almost 2'n'Half hours single engine..!??

Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:07 pm

Horrified.
Just a very small correction: they had PDV (Plovdiv) but not PVD (Providence)
 
bennett123
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Re: Smartwings flies 737-800 for almost 2'n'Half hours single engine..!??

Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:00 pm

Wonder if we will be told why they did not land sooner?.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Smartwings flies 737-800 for almost 2'n'Half hours single engine..!??

Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:35 am

AngelsDecay wrote:
What the hell...seems a lil bit crazy, with "tons" of available and possilble RWY's below...

https://avherald.com/h?article=4cbe8434 ... OoRBqbp6j8

you're evaluating this airline in respect to a US carrier, And? Their CAA of FAA May not have a problem with it. Were they over Land? Did they have sufficient fuel?
Did they Land Safely? If so? Then this is all speculation?
 
alasizon
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Re: Smartwings flies 737-800 for almost 2'n'Half hours single engine..!??

Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:36 am

strfyr51 wrote:
AngelsDecay wrote:
What the hell...seems a lil bit crazy, with "tons" of available and possilble RWY's below...

https://avherald.com/h?article=4cbe8434 ... OoRBqbp6j8

you're evaluating this airline in respect to a US carrier, And? Their CAA of FAA May not have a problem with it. Were they over Land? Did they have sufficient fuel?
Did they Land Safely? If so? Then this is all speculation?


Pretty sure every operator has the same policy of land at closest suitable airport in the event of an engine out.
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kalvado
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Re: Smartwings flies 737-800 for almost 2'n'Half hours single engine..!??

Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:52 am

strfyr51 wrote:
AngelsDecay wrote:
What the hell...seems a lil bit crazy, with "tons" of available and possilble RWY's below...

https://avherald.com/h?article=4cbe8434 ... OoRBqbp6j8

you're evaluating this airline in respect to a US carrier, And? Their CAA of FAA May not have a problem with it. Were they over Land? Did they have sufficient fuel?
Did they Land Safely? If so? Then this is all speculation?

To begin with, this is Czech airline, so they fall under EASA rules. I don't think EASA is way different from FAA in this question.
Second, engine out procedures are significantly driven by suspicion that there is a common mode failure, which can affect both engines. That's why ETOPS engine maintenance is geared towards eliminating as many common things as possible. And no, this is not ETOPS jet.
Last, but not the least... Engine reliability is not that great to gamble on pilot's glider skills. Flying single engine without solid plan B is not playing Russian roulette, but a solid step in that direction.
 
FlyHossD
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Re: Smartwings flies 737-800 for almost 2'n'Half hours single engine..!??

Sat Aug 24, 2019 3:07 am

strfyr51 wrote:
AngelsDecay wrote:
What the hell...seems a lil bit crazy, with "tons" of available and possilble RWY's below...

https://avherald.com/h?article=4cbe8434 ... OoRBqbp6j8

you're evaluating this airline in respect to a US carrier, And? Their CAA of FAA May not have a problem with it. Were they over Land? Did they have sufficient fuel?
Did they Land Safely? If so? Then this is all speculation?


It's possible that whatever caused the first engine to fail will cause another engine to fail; bad fuel would be an example. That's why there's an emphasis to land as soon as possible (it's even in Boeing FCOM, IIRC). The U.S. F.A.A. requirement is to "land at the nearest suitable airport in point of time." It's up to the captain to determine what constitutes a suitable runway.

I'm curious as to why they overflew so many apparently acceptable airports - I'll wait and see.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
DarthLobster
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Re: Smartwings flies 737-800 for almost 2'n'Half hours single engine..!??

Sat Aug 24, 2019 3:27 am

"Smart"wings, eh?
 
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seabosdca
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Re: Smartwings flies 737-800 for almost 2'n'Half hours single engine..!??

Sat Aug 24, 2019 3:44 am

If there isn't more to this story, this is absolutely horrifying.
 
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DL717
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Re: Smartwings does Europe for almost 2'n'Half hours single engine..!??

Sat Aug 24, 2019 3:57 am

mpdpilot wrote:
Looking at the flight on flightradar24 it does appear that they went direct Prague after descending to FL240. And there were many large airports along their flight path.

Burning fuel is the only thing that makes sense to me. If I have to burn 2hrs of fuel to get below MLW, might as well fly to Prague.

Also if I am going to fly around burning fuel, I am going to do it as high as I can. They will have a lot more options if they loose the final engine at FL240 then at 10000'.


This. No doubt the fuel burn/landing weight issue. Staying at 240 is also sensible.
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Scarebus34
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Re: Smartwings does Europe for almost 2'n'Half hours single engine..!??

Sat Aug 24, 2019 4:54 am

DL717 wrote:
mpdpilot wrote:
Looking at the flight on flightradar24 it does appear that they went direct Prague after descending to FL240. And there were many large airports along their flight path.

Burning fuel is the only thing that makes sense to me. If I have to burn 2hrs of fuel to get below MLW, might as well fly to Prague.

Also if I am going to fly around burning fuel, I am going to do it as high as I can. They will have a lot more options if they loose the final engine at FL240 then at 10000'.


This. No doubt the fuel burn/landing weight issue. Staying at 240 is also sensible.

When an emergency is declared (as one would be) Max Landing Weight is no longer an issue... you can land above it without a problem. This crew simply did not follow the QRH.
 
sdh9
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Re: Smartwings flies 737-800 for almost 2'n'Half hours single engine..!??

Sat Aug 24, 2019 4:56 am

Nobody with an engine failure is burning fuel needlessly. It's land at the nearest suitable airport. Straight out of the Boeing FCOM. You do not care about landing weight, other than doing a performance calculation to determine that you can stop on the pavement. There will be plenty of maintenance write-ups afterward; landing overweight will be just one.

Now the key word is suitable-- this is usually understood to be the closest airport (in point of time, meaning if you are at FL250 you have about a 75-80nm radius) with a long enough runway for landing, a suitable instrument approach if necessary, lack of terrain, and appropriate ARFF capabilities. In the US, we would go to any airport in our opspecs, because then somebody has done the work for us to figure all of that out. Also, you'd know that you'd have ground support capabilities (airstairs, ground handling, etc.) Every operator will have a definition for suitable airport.

Captain's authority does give the ability to NOT land at the closest suitable airport, but you better have a good reason. Because you will be asked. Existence of company maintenance is not a good answer. Massive line of thunderstorms over the closest suitable airport would be.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Smartwings flies 737-800 for almost 2'n'Half hours single engine..!??

Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:53 am

sdh9 wrote:
Captain's authority does give the ability to NOT land at the closest suitable airport, but you better have a good reason.


:checkmark:

Samos is a bit notorious for turbulence and crosswind, especially for runway 27. I could see a point in not returning if the conditions were judged a bit harsh, but even then, Athens and Thessaloniki should be obvious diversion points. For maintenance bases, Sofia, Istanbul, Bucharest and Belgrade all have big 737 MRO facilities. Pretty sure Athens has something as well.

sdh9 wrote:
Because you will be asked. Existence of company maintenance is not a good answer. Massive line of thunderstorms over the closest suitable airport would be.


Don't count on it. Not in this part of the world. I've seen way too many dodgy things in Eastern Europe, even had to refuse to fly on a few occasions because management started getting creative. Everything from forbidding deicing and insisting that ATRs take off with 30 cm of snow on the wings to corrosion on 737s repaired with cardboard and tar.
 
reltney
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Re: QS 737-800 Flies for Nearly 2 1/2 Hours with One Engine Out

Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:11 am

Did they shut down the engine or operate it at idle the rest of the flight..anyone know this?
This discussion will open up more issues.

My point of view is if I do not have full use of the engines thrust, I treat it like a failure. I might operate the engine at idle but still would treat the issue as a failure. For armchair aviators, a compressor stall might be an issue where you might not have to shut the engine down. The engine is fine at a reduced thrust setting or idle. If the plane was ETOPS, shutdown rates are part of ETOPS certification....

Cheers
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OUTLAW KNIVES.

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kalvado
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Re: QS 737-800 Flies for Nearly 2 1/2 Hours with One Engine Out

Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:23 am

reltney wrote:
Did they shut down the engine or operate it at idle the rest of the flight..anyone know this?
This discussion will open up more issues.

My point of view is if I do not have full use of the engines thrust, I treat it like a failure. I might operate the engine at idle but still would treat the issue as a failure. For armchair aviators, a compressor stall might be an issue where you might not have to shut the engine down. The engine is fine at a reduced thrust setting or idle. If the plane was ETOPS, shutdown rates are part of ETOPS certification....

Cheers

Whatever it worth, 2 relight attempts using windmill and bleed from other engine are mentioned. Implies full shutdown if that is the case.
 
airbuster
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Re: QS 737-800 Flies for Nearly 2 1/2 Hours with One Engine Out

Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:24 am

Knowing just 2 facts gives a impression of the decision making by the crew

- Smartwings maintenance base is in PRG.
- Land at nearest suitable airport is known by all pilots to be just that. At the nearest suitable. It doesn’t say at the most cost effective airport.

Dodgy at first glance. Maybe they tried to stretch it whilst attempting a relight but 2h20 is a loooong time.
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ltbewr
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Re: QS 737-800 Flies for Nearly 2 1/2 Hours with One Engine Out

Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:41 am

Was the airline 'tankering' fuel, perhaps buying it from the origin airport in this flight as cheaper than the destination airport ? Having a high fuel load could mean a high MLW and having to burn fuel anyway.

One has to wonder about the CRM in this case. Did the PIC overrule the procedure book, refuse to take advice from their FO, not comfortable or with enough experience with other airports in the region, just too worried about the inconvenience to themselves or pax or perhaps fear of hassles from his bosses if did a diversion. I would suspect the pilots are grounded until this investigation is over with, management and the national airline safety authority will have to review the judgements of the pilots and decide if they need to be disciplined up to being fired.
 
Ziyulu
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Re: QS 737-800 Flies for Nearly 2 1/2 Hours with One Engine Out

Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:05 pm

How long can the plane glide if both engines are out?
 
kalvado
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Re: QS 737-800 Flies for Nearly 2 1/2 Hours with One Engine Out

Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:46 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
How long can the plane glide if both engines are out?

about 1:15-1:20. 15-20 feet laterally per 1 foot of altitude. that is about 60 nautical miles /100 km from FL240
 
FriscoHeavy
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Re: QS 737-800 Flies for Nearly 2 1/2 Hours with One Engine Out

Sat Aug 24, 2019 1:02 pm

ltbewr wrote:
Was the airline 'tankering' fuel, perhaps buying it from the origin airport in this flight as cheaper than the destination airport ? Having a high fuel load could mean a high MLW and having to burn fuel anyway.

One has to wonder about the CRM in this case. Did the PIC overrule the procedure book, refuse to take advice from their FO, not comfortable or with enough experience with other airports in the region, just too worried about the inconvenience to themselves or pax or perhaps fear of hassles from his bosses if did a diversion. I would suspect the pilots are grounded until this investigation is over with, management and the national airline safety authority will have to review the judgements of the pilots and decide if they need to be disciplined up to being fired.



Please read prior posts. Landing weight means nothing when you declare an emergency and land.

The runway just has to be long enough and an inspection for an overweight landing will take place. That is NOT an acceptable reason to keep flying.
Whatever
 
mmo
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Re: Smartwings does Europe for almost 2'n'Half hours single engine..!??

Sat Aug 24, 2019 1:03 pm

DL717 wrote:
This. No doubt the fuel burn/landing weight issue. Staying at 240 is also sensible.


I just have to ask why? You do realize all commercial aircraft are certified to land at their MTOW (Structural) in cans of an engine failure or other serious emergencies right after takeoff. So if that is the case why would not land?

The EASA rules and company Procedures and the QRH would be pretty straight forward on this. If the engine fails you land at the nearest SUITABLE airport (in terms of time). One can argue weather and runway length but 2:20 engine out is just plain bad airmanship. I don't care where the maintenance base is, you land, End of story. OPS and MX don't make the decision. I realize there will be passengers inconvenienced but that's life.
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
Stickpusher
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Re: Smartwings flies 737-800 for almost 2'n'Half hours single engine..!??

Sat Aug 24, 2019 1:43 pm

sdh9 wrote:
...key word is suitable-- this is usually understood to be the closest airport (in point of time, meaning if you are at FL250 you have about a 75-80nm radius) with a long enough runway for landing, a suitable instrument approach if necessary...


I know you're discussing single-engine ops, but it occurred to me (GA pilot for over 40 years) that surely yet another factor - apart from those annoying regulations (!) - against continuing is weather too, not just more of it at 24k, but if that second engine decides to quit. Are these suitable diversion airfields IMC, and if so the instrument approach surely is unavailable too, because to maintain the glideslope presupposes you have power. The alternative would be a localiser approach and a probably unstable IMC approach from above the g/s using some glide angle computation. I assume the weather was good all the way along.

I'm sure that even if I knew the crew were really keen on getting me home and were continually reassessing gliding diversion options I wouldn't be any more comfortable. I'd seldom say I'd refuse to fly a carrier that had something like a runway excursion, because even the best of us can get caught out and put in a corner, but this is pretty wilful negligence that says a lot more about company culture. I don't want my captain saying "ah well, it'll be okay"!

I assume that 75-80nm (someone also said 60nm) is to ground level. In which case the track miles for positioning etc potentially eat quite far into that, especially if the airport runway is orientated such that you have to make base and final. Running that 50nm radius circle along the track might have been sobering to watch.

The usual mantra about twins is that you're always "one engine failure away from an emergency", apparently not at Smartwings.
 
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747classic
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Re: Smartwings does Europe for almost 2'n'Half hours single engine..!??

Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:14 pm

mmo wrote:


The EASA rules and company Procedures and the QRH would be pretty straight forward on this. If the engine fails you land at the nearest SUITABLE airport (in terms of time). One can argue weather and runway length but 2:20 engine out is just plain bad airmanship. I don't care where the maintenance base is, you land, End of story. OPS and MX don't make the decision. I realize there will be passengers inconvenienced but that's life.


:checkmark:

Captain : very bad decision making : economy first - safety second.
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
reltney
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Re: QS 737-800 Flies for Nearly 2 1/2 Hours with One Engine Out

Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:16 pm

kalvado wrote:
reltney wrote:
Did they shut down the engine or operate it at idle the rest of the flight..anyone know this?
This discussion will open up more issues.

My point of view is if I do not have full use of the engines thrust, I treat it like a failure. I might operate the engine at idle but still would treat the issue as a failure. For armchair aviators, a compressor stall might be an issue where you might not have to shut the engine down. The engine is fine at a reduced thrust setting or idle. If the plane was ETOPS, shutdown rates are part of ETOPS certification....

Cheers

Whatever it worth, 2 relight attempts using windmill and bleed from other engine are mentioned. Implies full shutdown if that is the case.



Got it. Did not read the article. Thanks . Full shut down is it then. Another fun discussion is if the engine was restarted, do you still land at the nearest suitable or continue to destination.....mmmmm..
Knives don't kill people. People with knives kill people.
OUTLAW KNIVES.

I am a pilot, therefore I envy no one...
 
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OA940
Posts: 1887
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Re: QS 737-800 Flies for Nearly 2 1/2 Hours with One Engine Out

Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:31 pm

reltney wrote:
kalvado wrote:
reltney wrote:
Did they shut down the engine or operate it at idle the rest of the flight..anyone know this?
This discussion will open up more issues.

My point of view is if I do not have full use of the engines thrust, I treat it like a failure. I might operate the engine at idle but still would treat the issue as a failure. For armchair aviators, a compressor stall might be an issue where you might not have to shut the engine down. The engine is fine at a reduced thrust setting or idle. If the plane was ETOPS, shutdown rates are part of ETOPS certification....

Cheers

Whatever it worth, 2 relight attempts using windmill and bleed from other engine are mentioned. Implies full shutdown if that is the case.



Got it. Did not read the article. Thanks . Full shut down is it then. Another fun discussion is if the engine was restarted, do you still land at the nearest suitable or continue to destination.....mmmmm..


I'm pretty sure if you can restart the engine then you can continue but pay close attention to how the affected engine operates. Obviously though I think nobody would blame a crew in that case if they decided to divert, but I believe it's not as pressing of an issue as having an engine out.
A350/CSeries = bae
 
SWADawg
Posts: 523
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Re: QS 737-800 Flies for Nearly 2 1/2 Hours with One Engine Out

Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:51 pm

OA940 wrote:
reltney wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Whatever it worth, 2 relight attempts using windmill and bleed from other engine are mentioned. Implies full shutdown if that is the case.



Got it. Did not read the article. Thanks . Full shut down is it then. Another fun discussion is if the engine was restarted, do you still land at the nearest suitable or continue to destination.....mmmmm..


I'm pretty sure if you can restart the engine then you can continue but pay close attention to how the affected engine operates. Obviously though I think nobody would blame a crew in that case if they decided to divert, but I believe it's not as pressing of an issue as having an engine out.

At my carrier, even if the engine restarts, you still are required to land at the nearest suitable Airport. No exceptions.
My posts are my opinion only and do not reflect the views of Southwest Airlines
 
ikramerica
Posts: 14887
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Re: QS 737-800 Flies for Nearly 2 1/2 Hours with One Engine Out

Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:54 pm

OA940 wrote:
reltney wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Whatever it worth, 2 relight attempts using windmill and bleed from other engine are mentioned. Implies full shutdown if that is the case.



Got it. Did not read the article. Thanks . Full shut down is it then. Another fun discussion is if the engine was restarted, do you still land at the nearest suitable or continue to destination.....mmmmm..


I'm pretty sure if you can restart the engine then you can continue but pay close attention to how the affected engine operates. Obviously though I think nobody would blame a crew in that case if they decided to divert, but I believe it's not as pressing of an issue as having an engine out.

Even if you idle an engine by choice due to inconsistent readings, you must divert.

Was on a DL757 where there was inconsistency jn the oil pressure reading on #2. After many attempts to restart it to correct the issue, pilots were unable to keep it at cruise without the warning. So we diverted to LAS even though we could have made it to LAX safely had the pilots spent more time pretending to restart it.

They apologized and said there is no emergency and not to worry, but the rules are clear and LAS had to be the landing airport as they had passed the midway between SLC and couldn’t legally land anywhere else. And the pilots timed out, so they got a Vegas overnight and DL had to ferry a 757 from SLC with fresh pilots to get us to LAX. But we did get into LAX eventually.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
FlyHossD
Posts: 1923
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Re: QS 737-800 Flies for Nearly 2 1/2 Hours with One Engine Out

Sat Aug 24, 2019 4:20 pm

FriscoHeavy wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
Was the airline 'tankering' fuel, perhaps buying it from the origin airport in this flight as cheaper than the destination airport ? Having a high fuel load could mean a high MLW and having to burn fuel anyway.

One has to wonder about the CRM in this case. Did the PIC overrule the procedure book, refuse to take advice from their FO, not comfortable or with enough experience with other airports in the region, just too worried about the inconvenience to themselves or pax or perhaps fear of hassles from his bosses if did a diversion. I would suspect the pilots are grounded until this investigation is over with, management and the national airline safety authority will have to review the judgements of the pilots and decide if they need to be disciplined up to being fired.



Please read prior posts. Landing weight means nothing when you declare an emergency and land.

The runway just has to be long enough and an inspection for an overweight landing will take place. That is NOT an acceptable reason to keep flying.


Thank you, FriscoHeavy. Just to state the point again, Maximum Landing Weight is NOT a valid reason to continue the flight. Rather, it's land at the nearest suitable airport in point of time, which is just another way of saying land at the quickest airport where a safe landing can be made.

I operated out of DEN for many years and used to pose the following scenario to new pilots and new captains. Let's say you're overhead KEGE and an engine fails - do you land at KEGE or maybe KGJT or KMTJ? The answer is it depends; if the crew is qualified and comfortable with KEGE and the weather is good, KEGE might be a valid choice, but for most pilots, weather permitting, KGJT would probably be a better choice as from any cruise altitude, it will take about 15 minuites (i.e., "in point of time) to land at either KEGE or KGJT.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
PaxPicti
Posts: 24
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2019 11:37 pm

Re: QS 737-800 Flies for Nearly 2 1/2 Hours with One Engine Out

Sat Aug 24, 2019 4:35 pm

As a pax, this is why this forum is so useful - I now know another airline to avoid.

"How long can the plane glide if both engines are out?" As far as to where you need to go around, and then about another half mile.
 
senatorflyer
Posts: 323
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:57 am

Re: QS 737-800 Flies for Nearly 2 1/2 Hours with One Engine Out

Sat Aug 24, 2019 5:09 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
Was the airline 'tankering' fuel, perhaps buying it from the origin airport in this flight as cheaper than the destination airport ? Having a high fuel load could mean a high MLW and having to burn fuel anyway.

One has to wonder about the CRM in this case. Did the PIC overrule the procedure book, refuse to take advice from their FO, not comfortable or with enough experience with other airports in the region, just too worried about the inconvenience to themselves or pax or perhaps fear of hassles from his bosses if did a diversion. I would suspect the pilots are grounded until this investigation is over with, management and the national airline safety authority will have to review the judgements of the pilots and decide if they need to be disciplined up to being fired.


I doubt they are suspended. The reality is most of the world just isn't as safety conscious as the US, Canada, Australia.


I think that list of safety conscious countries is a lot longer!
 
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BasilFawlty
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Re: QS 737-800 Flies for Nearly 2 1/2 Hours with One Engine Out

Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:08 pm

FriscoHeavy wrote:
Please read prior posts. Landing weight means nothing when you declare an emergency and land.

But they didn’t declare an emergency so technically it wasn’t one. And without being an emergency MLW might still have been relevant. :biggrin:
'Every year donkeys and mules kill more people than plane crashes'
 
T4thH
Posts: 312
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:17 pm

Re: QS 737-800 Flies for Nearly 2 1/2 Hours with One Engine Out

Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:25 pm

I really will like to know the excuse of the crew. Please note, they have overflown Sofia, where Lufthansa Technik Base Sofia is located, responsible for the maintenance of more or less all A320 family and all B737 (all members, all generations) for whole eastern Europe (and most airlines of whole eastern Europe). I even will not be surprised, if the parts, with which they have repaired the jet over night, were stored at Lufthansa Technik in Sofia and have been transferred to Prague for the repair.
They have flown next to Budapest airport, where Smartwings Hungary has there base (only one jet is located there, but it is the same, a B737-800). So even there the basic maintenance and repair shall have been possible.
 
Sokes
Posts: 239
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: QS 737-800 Flies for Nearly 2 1/2 Hours with One Engine Out

Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:58 pm

What can go wrong: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_a ... ed_gliding
fuel system/ filter clogged by ice, wrong fuel indicator installed, engine failure outside flight envelope, hail and water ingestion, vulcanic ash, blade fracture, fuel system contamination, low oil pressure.
Can a plane above MLW circle above the nearest airport till it reaches MLW? How much fuel/ min can a B737/ A320 drop?
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
LTC8K6
Posts: 1534
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:36 pm

Re: QS 737-800 Flies for Nearly 2 1/2 Hours with One Engine Out

Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:06 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
How long can the plane glide if both engines are out?


All the way to impact.
 
BlueberryWheats
Posts: 535
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:46 am

Re: QS 737-800 Flies for Nearly 2 1/2 Hours with One Engine Out

Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:17 pm

Sokes wrote:
What can go wrong: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_a ... ed_gliding
fuel system/ filter clogged by ice, wrong fuel indicator installed, engine failure outside flight envelope, hail and water ingestion, vulcanic ash, blade fracture, fuel system contamination, low oil pressure.
Can a plane above MLW circle above the nearest airport till it reaches MLW? How much fuel/ min can a B737/ A320 drop?


If an aircraft without fuel dump (such as the 737 or A320) becomes a glider with both engines out, how do you propose they reach MLW?
 
T4thH
Posts: 312
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:17 pm

Re: QS 737-800 Flies for Nearly 2 1/2 Hours with One Engine Out

Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:27 pm

BlueberryWheats wrote:
Sokes wrote:
What can go wrong: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_a ... ed_gliding
fuel system/ filter clogged by ice, wrong fuel indicator installed, engine failure outside flight envelope, hail and water ingestion, vulcanic ash, blade fracture, fuel system contamination, low oil pressure.
Can a plane above MLW circle above the nearest airport till it reaches MLW? How much fuel/ min can a B737/ A320 drop?


If an aircraft without fuel dump (such as the 737 or A320) becomes a glider with both engines out, how do you propose they reach MLW?

When it had crashed and rest of the fuels burns furiously away.

But in this case, to reach any more the MLW is unimportant .
 
Draken21fx
Posts: 202
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:38 am

Re: Smartwings flies 737-800 for almost 2'n'Half hours single engine..!??

Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:07 pm

holczakker wrote:
...
BTW a poster (a hungarian ATCO) on avherald states that they flew over Serbia and Hungary without even advising ATC that they had an engine failure.


Not to doubt the Hungarian poster but how can they not advise when they asked for a FL240 for the whole overflight? Wouldnt that raise questions from the Serbian and Hungarian ATC?
Last edited by Draken21fx on Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
smithbs
Posts: 295
Joined: Wed May 17, 2017 6:09 pm

Re: QS 737-800 Flies for Nearly 2 1/2 Hours with One Engine Out

Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:09 pm

ikramerica wrote:
Was on a DL757 where there was inconsistency jn the oil pressure reading on #2. After many attempts to restart it to correct the issue, pilots were unable to keep it at cruise without the warning. So we diverted to LAS even though we could have made it to LAX safely had the pilots spent more time pretending to restart it.

They apologized and said there is no emergency and not to worry, but the rules are clear and LAS had to be the landing airport as they had passed the midway between SLC and couldn’t legally land anywhere else. And the pilots timed out, so they got a Vegas overnight and DL had to ferry a 757 from SLC with fresh pilots to get us to LAX. But we did get into LAX eventually.


But hey, if Smartwings had been flying you would have reached LAX right away. ;)

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