globalflyer
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A321 Range HNL-DEN

Sun Aug 25, 2019 8:20 pm

Just curious, could HA add DEN-HNL with the A321 (does it have the range) with DEN being hot and high? Would be a beautiful addition to DIA!
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voxkel
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Re: A321 Range HNL-DEN

Sun Aug 25, 2019 8:52 pm

DIA-HNL is a similar distance to JFK-LHR. I don't see a standard A321 (non T/neo/LR) making the route. Otherwise B6 would be running Transatlantic already.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: A321 Range HNL-DEN

Sun Aug 25, 2019 8:57 pm

voxkel wrote:
DIA-HNL is a similar distance to JFK-LHR. I don't see a standard A321 (non T/neo/LR) making the route. Otherwise B6 would be running Transatlantic already.


HA only has A321neo.
 
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RWA380
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Re: A321 Range HNL-DEN

Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:26 pm

globalflyer wrote:
Just curious, could HA add DEN-HNL with the A321 (does it have the range) with DEN being hot and high? Would be a beautiful addition to DIA!


In the thread speaking on HA's new OGG-LAS service, it was said more than once that their A-321neo's schedule was ideal (4:30 am arrival & 6:30 am departure) to take advantage of the coolest part of the day, so they could fly with no restrictions. It was mentioned by more than one member that LAS was about as far as that aircraft could go without taking a penalty.

Once you consider the extra fuel for ETOPS 180, plus the extra fuel that is added for westbounds in the winter season & there is already a hit with passengers and/or bags/cargo. With Hot & High conditions in Denver, I'd bet it's a non-starter for the A-321neo especially westbound.

I also will bet that Denver based flyers are already loyal to UA which operates to all 4 major destinations in Hawaii non-stop from Denver & a fifth through LAX, or possibly they are WN loyalists, who are alright with the single rather painless connection at San Jose, Oakland or Sacramento. I think HA would battle for marketshare in Denver & there are better opportunities for the A-321's in their fleet. IMHO.
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airbazar
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Re: A321 Range HNL-DEN

Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:04 am

With 189 pax it would be borderline but I suspect it can be done.
DEN-HNL is about the same distance and flying time as CDG-BOS and shorter than CDG-EWR which Primera used to fly with the A21neo. The hot and high characteristics of DEN shouldn't be a problem for the NEO because of the long runways.
 
JohanTally
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Re: A321 Range HNL-DEN

Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:30 am

DEN-CLT has heavy restrictions and blocks seats for midday flights in the summer. Obviously that's on the A321CEO and it's midday but Denver is a tricky airport even with 3 mile long runways.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: A321 Range HNL-DEN

Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:36 am

airbazar wrote:
With 189 pax it would be borderline but I suspect it can be done.
DEN-HNL is about the same distance and flying time as CDG-BOS and shorter than CDG-EWR which Primera used to fly with the A21neo. The hot and high characteristics of DEN shouldn't be a problem for the NEO because of the long runways.

Tire rotation is the bigger factor these days for hot and high. But a fringe route like DEN-HNL, hot and high alone would kill it.
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TTailedTiger
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Re: A321 Range HNL-DEN

Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:46 am

They can suck it up and use their A330 or 787 when they get it. Regressing to even more long-haul narrowbody flights isn't something we should be arriving for. Hawaiian is supposed to be a full service carrier. Let the LCC's run the 321XLR slave ships.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: A321 Range HNL-DEN

Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:57 am

airbazar wrote:
With 189 pax it would be borderline but I suspect it can be done.
DEN-HNL is about the same distance and flying time as CDG-BOS and shorter than CDG-EWR which Primera used to fly with the A21neo. The hot and high characteristics of DEN shouldn't be a problem for the NEO because of the long runways.


Are you confident they wouldn't be tire-speed-limited or brake inertia limited on a 90-degree day?
 
Aceskywalker
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Re: A321 Range HNL-DEN

Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:12 am

DEN-HNL is likely out of the range of HAL's A321N's and they're unlikely to tie up an A330 on that route - too much competition from UA and WN.

I don't see much in the way for HA expanding in the next several years. Oldest A330s are likely going to be replaced by the new 787s so no crazy fleet expansion.
Flying to London and mainland Europe seems to be a thing that HA is looking at, but is there even a demand for Europe - Hawaii or will this be more of a prestige flight?
 
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RWA380
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Re: A321 Range HNL-DEN

Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:17 am

globalflyer wrote:
Just curious, could HA add DEN-HNL with the A321 (does it have the range) with DEN being hot and high? Would be a beautiful addition to DIA!


As HA has ordered their newer aircraft (anything after the 763ER's) they have given insight into what each model represents for their growth & then this little CEO speaks about what HA's vision is for the aircraft. The insight I have heard is, HA wants to start ULH flying with their 787's, they want to return to a couple of Pacific destinations * & convert PPT to the A-321 as well. They will fly the 717's for at least ten years still.

* = An old HA route map - http://www.departedflights.com/HA040289.html
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digitalcloud
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Re: A321 Range HNL-DEN

Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:34 am

Even if it had the range, DEN presents a major performance challenge with it's 'hot and high' environment.
 
airbazar
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Re: A321 Range HNL-DEN

Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:20 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
airbazar wrote:
With 189 pax it would be borderline but I suspect it can be done.
DEN-HNL is about the same distance and flying time as CDG-BOS and shorter than CDG-EWR which Primera used to fly with the A21neo. The hot and high characteristics of DEN shouldn't be a problem for the NEO because of the long runways.


Are you confident they wouldn't be tire-speed-limited or brake inertia limited on a 90-degree day?


That's a good question which I'll leave to the experts. Even the larger twins which used to have that problem (A330), don't seem to have it anymore. I know (as advertised), that one of the main reasons for the thrust bump was specifically for better hot and high performance.
http://www.noticiaslatamsales.com/notic ... t-whitney/
Whether that's enough to get off the ground at DEN with a full pax load and their bags, I'm very curious to know.
Someone claimed the LR could do it however the only difference between the LR and a plain NEO is more fuel. It does nothing for more thrust and therefore it should have the same tire/brake issues.
 
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Polot
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Re: A321 Range HNL-DEN

Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:53 pm

Do the Rocky Mountains present any possible challenges or are basically all aircraft fine by the time they get there no matter the climb performance and what not? Most planes going west from DEN are going on short hops (relative to aircraft’s potential performance) to the west coast or are wide bodies.
 
catiii
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Re: A321 Range HNL-DEN

Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:57 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
Regressing to even more long-haul narrowbody flights isn't something we should be arriving for.


No but profitability is something you should be striving for.
 
bgm
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Re: A321 Range HNL-DEN

Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:10 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
They can suck it up and use their A330 or 787 when they get it. Regressing to even more long-haul narrowbody flights isn't something we should be arriving for. Hawaiian is supposed to be a full service carrier. Let the LCC's run the 321XLR slave ships.


I assume you mean striving for?

The 787 has narrower seat width than the A321. Oh, and also, UA runs 757s from DEN-Hawaii.
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Re: A321 Range HNL-DEN

Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:25 pm

bgm wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
They can suck it up and use their A330 or 787 when they get it. Regressing to even more long-haul narrowbody flights isn't something we should be arriving for. Hawaiian is supposed to be a full service carrier. Let the LCC's run the 321XLR slave ships.


I assume you mean striving for?

The 787 has narrower seat width than the A321. Oh, and also, UA runs 757s from DEN-Hawaii.[/quote


Man Boeing has hit the snooze button a few to many times. The gap from the 737-787 is too large. I don’t understand their thought process. Ok lets just let Airbus have the middle of market for 15-20 years
 
ilovepabst
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Re: A321 Range HNL-DEN

Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:46 pm

RWA380 wrote:
globalflyer wrote:
Just curious, could HA add DEN-HNL with the A321 (does it have the range) with DEN being hot and high? Would be a beautiful addition to DIA!


In the thread speaking on HA's new OGG-LAS service, it was said more than once that their A-321neo's schedule was ideal (4:30 am arrival & 6:30 am departure) to take advantage of the coolest part of the day, so they could fly with no restrictions. It was mentioned by more than one member that LAS was about as far as that aircraft could go without taking a penalty.

Once you consider the extra fuel for ETOPS 180, plus the extra fuel that is added for westbounds in the winter season & there is already a hit with passengers and/or bags/cargo. With Hot & High conditions in Denver, I'd bet it's a non-starter for the A-321neo especially westbound.

I also will bet that Denver based flyers are already loyal to UA which operates to all 4 major destinations in Hawaii non-stop from Denver & a fifth through LAX, or possibly they are WN loyalists, who are alright with the single rather painless connection at San Jose, Oakland or Sacramento. I think HA would battle for marketshare in Denver & there are better opportunities for the A-321's in their fleet. IMHO.

That made me laugh. Your enroute alts would never be any further than origin or destination alts so you would not need extra fuel for ETOPS.
 
airbazar
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Re: A321 Range HNL-DEN

Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:04 pm

Here's an airline that believes they can fly DEN to Hawaii with the A321NEO
https://onemileatatime.com/frontier-a321xlr/
Note that the XLR merely has more fuel capacity which does nothing to improve takeoff performance from DEN compared to the plain NEO. In fact it should be worse because fully loaded it should be heavier.
 
SQ317
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Re: A321 Range HNL-DEN

Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:17 pm

airbazar wrote:
Here's an airline that believes they can fly DEN to Hawaii with the A321NEO
https://onemileatatime.com/frontier-a321xlr/
Note that the XLR merely has more fuel capacity which does nothing to improve takeoff performance from DEN compared to the plain NEO. In fact it should be worse because fully loaded it should be heavier.


Well compared to a regular NEO, MTOW on the XLR is 101t vs 93.5t, accompanied with a revised flap configuration to preserve take-off performance compared to the LR. But yes, the LR (97t) is just heavier with more fuel capacity and has worse take off performance than the vanilla A321neo.
 
Transpac787
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Re: A321 Range HNL-DEN

Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:48 pm

ilovepabst wrote:
That made me laugh. Your enroute alts would never be any further than origin or destination alts so you would not need extra fuel for ETOPS.


Ahh, if only flying were so simple.

If you lose an engine at the equal-time-point, you will drift down to lower altitude, have substantially more drag in the form of control surfaces counteracting the adverse trust and a windmilling engine, and the plane going slower on a single operating engine. All over the course of 3+ hours.

So, no, ETOPS fuel planning is not so simple so as to account for just origin & destination, and that’s it.
 
azjubilee
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Re: A321 Range HNL-DEN

Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:38 pm

globalflyer wrote:
Just curious, could HA add DEN-HNL with the A321 (does it have the range) with DEN being hot and high? Would be a beautiful addition to DIA!


Considering the 321neo on LAS-OGG will on on occasion experience weight penalties, DEN-HNL will be even more restrictive. Not to mention, DEN-HNL doesn't really fit into HAL's conservative growth strategy.
 
ilovepabst
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Re: A321 Range HNL-DEN

Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:32 pm

Transpac787 wrote:
ilovepabst wrote:
That made me laugh. Your enroute alts would never be any further than origin or destination alts so you would not need extra fuel for ETOPS.


Ahh, if only flying were so simple.

If you lose an engine at the equal-time-point, you will drift down to lower altitude, have substantially more drag in the form of control surfaces counteracting the adverse trust and a windmilling engine, and the plane going slower on a single operating engine. All over the course of 3+ hours.

So, no, ETOPS fuel planning is not so simple so as to account for just origin & destination, and that’s it.

When the 757 was doing the bulk of the work to Hawaii you would sometimes see additional fuel for buffer on ETP spread due to winds but other than that scenario I don't recall an instance that required more fuel that wasn't covered by enroute reserves. I'm not understanding your 3+ hours comment, even at critical ETP I don't see where you'd be over 3 back to west coast or Hawaii
 
barney captain
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Re: A321 Range HNL-DEN

Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:38 pm

ilovepabst wrote:
Transpac787 wrote:
ilovepabst wrote:
That made me laugh. Your enroute alts would never be any further than origin or destination alts so you would not need extra fuel for ETOPS.


Ahh, if only flying were so simple.

If you lose an engine at the equal-time-point, you will drift down to lower altitude, have substantially more drag in the form of control surfaces counteracting the adverse trust and a windmilling engine, and the plane going slower on a single operating engine. All over the course of 3+ hours.

So, no, ETOPS fuel planning is not so simple so as to account for just origin & destination, and that’s it.

When the 757 was doing the bulk of the work to Hawaii you would sometimes see additional fuel for buffer on ETP spread due to winds but other than that scenario I don't recall an instance that required more fuel that wasn't covered by enroute reserves. I'm not understanding your 3+ hours comment, even at critical ETP I don't see where you'd be over 3 back to west coast or Hawaii


ETOPS 180 requires an additional 10% of the total fuel required, as well as other things. So yes, etops definitely requires more fuel.
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RWA380
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Re: A321 Range HNL-DEN

Mon Aug 26, 2019 7:45 pm

barney captain wrote:
ilovepabst wrote:
Transpac787 wrote:

Ahh, if only flying were so simple.

If you lose an engine at the equal-time-point, you will drift down to lower altitude, have substantially more drag in the form of control surfaces counteracting the adverse trust and a windmilling engine, and the plane going slower on a single operating engine. All over the course of 3+ hours.

So, no, ETOPS fuel planning is not so simple so as to account for just origin & destination, and that’s it.

When the 757 was doing the bulk of the work to Hawaii you would sometimes see additional fuel for buffer on ETP spread due to winds but other than that scenario I don't recall an instance that required more fuel that wasn't covered by enroute reserves. I'm not understanding your 3+ hours comment, even at critical ETP I don't see where you'd be over 3 back to west coast or Hawaii


ETOPS 180 requires an additional 10% of the total fuel required, as well as other things. So yes, etops definitely requires more fuel.


Thanks Barney Captain, I knew you'd know this info very well. Still laughing ilovepabst?
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HP69
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Re: A321 Range HNL-DEN

Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:16 pm

This is a pointless discussion as HA will not be launching DEN anytime soon.
 
barney captain
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Re: A321 Range HNL-DEN

Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:25 pm

RWA380 wrote:
barney captain wrote:
ilovepabst wrote:
When the 757 was doing the bulk of the work to Hawaii you would sometimes see additional fuel for buffer on ETP spread due to winds but other than that scenario I don't recall an instance that required more fuel that wasn't covered by enroute reserves. I'm not understanding your 3+ hours comment, even at critical ETP I don't see where you'd be over 3 back to west coast or Hawaii


ETOPS 180 requires an additional 10% of the total fuel required, as well as other things. So yes, etops definitely requires more fuel.


Thanks Barney Captain, I knew you'd know this info very well. Still laughing ilovepabst?


My pleasure. Some other etops specific fuel requirements are "FAR30", or the need for 30 mins of holding fuel at 1500agl (this is in addition to any other required holding fuel) and in the case of WN 737's, the fuel needed to run the APU continuously. This provides an immediate electrical back-up in the event of engine or generator failure. This requirement will likely go away after our "probation" period is over, and we can demonstrate reliable APU starts at CRZ.
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chrisair
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Re: A321 Range HNL-DEN

Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:49 pm

barney captain wrote:
This requirement will likely go away after our "probation" period is over, and we can demonstrate reliable APU starts at CRZ.


How do you guys demonstrate the APU start up at cruise? Are they actually firing it up over the ocean?
 
barney captain
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Re: A321 Range HNL-DEN

Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:09 pm

chrisair wrote:
barney captain wrote:
This requirement will likely go away after our "probation" period is over, and we can demonstrate reliable APU starts at CRZ.


How do you guys demonstrate the APU start up at cruise? Are they actually firing it up over the ocean?


No, the demonstration of reliability would be accomplished just prior to the top of descent, after maximum cold-soaking.
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RWA380
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Re: A321 Range HNL-DEN

Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:48 am

barney captain wrote:
RWA380 wrote:
barney captain wrote:

ETOPS 180 requires an additional 10% of the total fuel required, as well as other things. So yes, etops definitely requires more fuel.


Thanks Barney Captain, I knew you'd know this info very well. Still laughing ilovepabst?


My pleasure. Some other etops specific fuel requirements are "FAR30", or the need for 30 mins of holding fuel at 1500agl (this is in addition to any other required holding fuel) and in the case of WN 737's, the fuel needed to run the APU continuously. This provides an immediate electrical back-up in the event of engine or generator failure. This requirement will likely go away after our "probation" period is over, and we can demonstrate reliable APU starts at CRZ.


Once again, you do our site a service by bringing the facts most of us don't know. Do you know if AS had to do the same thing, with a continually running APU when they launched Hawaii services on their 800's? I would expect this is an exciting time for you, where you are.

I appreciate the specifics on the ETOPS, while I knew every airline flying twins (which is almost everything xNH to Hawaii) carried extra fuel just for ETOPS 180, I just didn't know it was an even ten percent. I do know on day where it takes us 6:30 minutes to fly PDX-HNL on an AS 739, We took on extra fuel to battle headwinds in addition to the normal ETOPS requirement. Then each of the ETOPS aircraft have extra equipment for overwater operation, including extra rafts, which are not light. When all is said & done, I expect many of the 737's plying the skies between Hawaii & the Mainland are near to full on fuel at a few times of the year.
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ilovepabst
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Re: A321 Range HNL-DEN

Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:24 am

barney captain wrote:
ilovepabst wrote:
Transpac787 wrote:

Ahh, if only flying were so simple.

If you lose an engine at the equal-time-point, you will drift down to lower altitude, have substantially more drag in the form of control surfaces counteracting the adverse trust and a windmilling engine, and the plane going slower on a single operating engine. All over the course of 3+ hours.

So, no, ETOPS fuel planning is not so simple so as to account for just origin & destination, and that’s it.

When the 757 was doing the bulk of the work to Hawaii you would sometimes see additional fuel for buffer on ETP spread due to winds but other than that scenario I don't recall an instance that required more fuel that wasn't covered by enroute reserves. I'm not understanding your 3+ hours comment, even at critical ETP I don't see where you'd be over 3 back to west coast or Hawaii


ETOPS 180 requires an additional 10% of the total fuel required, as well as other things. So yes, etops definitely requires more fuel.

Which is the same as any NON ETOPS reserve for flag operation. Your 10% reserve isn't entirely correct though. That may be the FAR basic requirement and what your carrier is required but our exemptions allow for redispatch with 10% to redispatch and then 5%. Additionally we have the option of 5% for Class 1 airspace and then 10% outside of that. We can also carry performance based reserves from historical data which could be less than 5%. A 10% straight reserve at my carrier is not the method of choice.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: A321 Range HNL-DEN

Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:40 am

ilovepabst wrote:
Which is the same as any NON ETOPS reserve for flag operation. Your 10% reserve isn't entirely correct though. That may be the FAR basic requirement and what your carrier is required but our exemptions allow for redispatch with 10% to redispatch and then 5%. Additionally we have the option of 5% for Class 1 airspace and then 10% outside of that. We can also carry performance based reserves from historical data which could be less than 5%. A 10% straight reserve at my carrier is not the method of choice.


What routine would your carrier use DEN-HNL? Does it fly anything near that distance to Hawaii or ETOPS 180 routes with narrowbody aircraft? (I don't care what Spirit does on FLL-SXM, for example. It isn't comparable.)

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