Judge1310
Posts: 345
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:55 pm

Re: SFO Runway 28L closure - How Bad?

Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:06 pm

jumbojet wrote:
and this is why I, and many others, prefer to connect in say, ICN, then SFO when going TPAC. After reading this thread, even on a normal day, your likely to miss your connection due to delayed/cancelled flights. Throw in a bit of bad weather and/or construction and your doomed. This by the way isnt necessarily aimed at UA, although they are the dominant carrier at SFO.



Ummm, okay, by all means, go ahead and *waste* your time making a triple (if not, quadruple connection) just to fly through ICN...
I also think that many folks feel that SFO is more delay-prone that it actually is. Yeah, in the winter time we can have some low cigs and reduced vis but that's typical up and down the West Coast (save for LAX and SAN). Throw in intersecting runways (a necessity due to prevailing winds in the area) and tight taxiways and concourse placement, it's actually a beautiful wonder to observe SFO ops when winds are light, vis is unlimited, and all runways are useable.
 
timz
Posts: 6568
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 1999 7:43 am

Re: SFO Runway 28L closure - How Bad?

Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:34 pm

Judge1310 wrote:
Throw in intersecting runways (a necessity due to prevailing winds in the area)

Doubt SFO's winds are anything special. Airliners at OAK and SJC manage with one-direction runways.
 
Judge1310
Posts: 345
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:55 pm

Re: SFO Runway 28L closure - How Bad?

Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:44 pm

timz wrote:
Judge1310 wrote:
Throw in intersecting runways (a necessity due to prevailing winds in the area)

Doubt SFO's winds are anything special. Airliners at OAK and SJC manage with one-direction runways.


So we're just going to ignore the large foothills literally within 2 miles to the west and southwest of SFO airport, those same foothills of the Santa Cruz Mountains that create microclimates along the SF Peninsula? Let me guess, you're probably not from around here (SFO) are ya? :roll:
 
SFOtoORD
Posts: 1109
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:26 am

Re: SFO Runway 28L closure - How Bad?

Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:52 pm

Judge1310 wrote:
timz wrote:
Judge1310 wrote:
Throw in intersecting runways (a necessity due to prevailing winds in the area)

Doubt SFO's winds are anything special. Airliners at OAK and SJC manage with one-direction runways.


So we're just going to ignore the large foothills literally within 2 miles to the west and southwest of SFO airport, those same foothills of the Santa Cruz Mountains that create microclimates along the SF Peninsula? Let me guess, you're probably not from around here (SFO) are ya? :roll:


OAK is not so far from hills either and I’m sure SJC deals w the Santa Cruz mtns on approach as well.
 
Brucekn
Posts: 19
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2017 1:20 am

Re: SFO Runway 28L closure - How Bad?

Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:03 pm

I flew into SFO from DEN on Thursday 9/10. We were delayed by about 45 minutes at the DEN gate, and parked on a taxiway close to the 25 threshold for 10 minutes so we could get an accurate wheels up time. Both 28L and 01R were closed as the work is taking place at the intersection of the 01’s and the 28’s. They are alternating which 01 is closed, along with 28L. Exiting 28R and looking back at the aircraft approaching, saw 4 aircraft in trail, must have been 2-3 mile spacing on approach, great work by NorCal Approach. Our flight made many speed changes on descent, I wold think to synchronize for approach. Weather was fair at SFO, foggy in the City.
 
IADCA
Posts: 1864
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:24 am

Re: SFO Runway 28L closure - How Bad?

Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:24 pm

SFOtoORD wrote:
Judge1310 wrote:
timz wrote:
Doubt SFO's winds are anything special. Airliners at OAK and SJC manage with one-direction runways.


So we're just going to ignore the large foothills literally within 2 miles to the west and southwest of SFO airport, those same foothills of the Santa Cruz Mountains that create microclimates along the SF Peninsula? Let me guess, you're probably not from around here (SFO) are ya? :roll:


OAK is not so far from hills either and I’m sure SJC deals w the Santa Cruz mtns on approach as well.


Those statements are both true but are also meaningless. The mountains have a much less dramatic effect on the weather immediately around SJC than the same range does at SFO because the Peninsula is so much narrower up by SFO. It's both much closer to the mountains and much closer to the ocean on the other side than is SJC, where the combination temperature gradient from the ocean water to land is what drives the weather near SFO (and notably not down near SJC - as anyone who's lived in the Bay Area will tell you and thus I presume you know, the weather up near SF tells you little about even what it'll be like in Menlo Park or Palo Alto, let alone Santa Clara or San Jose).
 
Judge1310
Posts: 345
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:55 pm

Re: SFO Runway 28L closure - How Bad?

Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:35 pm

IADCA wrote:
SFOtoORD wrote:
Judge1310 wrote:

So we're just going to ignore the large foothills literally within 2 miles to the west and southwest of SFO airport, those same foothills of the Santa Cruz Mountains that create microclimates along the SF Peninsula? Let me guess, you're probably not from around here (SFO) are ya? :roll:


OAK is not so far from hills either and I’m sure SJC deals w the Santa Cruz mtns on approach as well.


Those statements are both true but are also meaningless. The mountains have a much less dramatic effect on the weather immediately around SJC than the same range does at SFO because the Peninsula is so much narrower up by SFO. It's both much closer to the mountains and much closer to the ocean on the other side than is SJC, where the combination temperature gradient from the ocean water to land is what drives the weather near SFO (and notably not down near SJC - as anyone who's lived in the Bay Area will tell you and thus I presume you know, the weather up near SF tells you little about even what it'll be like in Menlo Park or Palo Alto, let alone Santa Clara or San Jose).


I'm a little confused, how is my statement 'meaningless'? Maybe I'm misinterpreting your reply (?), because it seems that you've correctly expounded on what I posted. As someone who lives in the SF area I can be going southbound on 280 @ Westborough and be in deep fog/mist and vis <0.25mi and, in less than a mile (nearing the Sneath Ln exit), I can already be below the aforementioned conditions and have glaring sunshine right in my eyes with dry conditions at that level. That type of weather is absolutely specific to the presence of the hills around SFO.
 
babastud
Posts: 240
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 1:38 am

Re: SFO Runway 28L closure - How Bad?

Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:32 am

Judge1310 wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
and this is why I, and many others, prefer to connect in say, ICN, then SFO when going TPAC. After reading this thread, even on a normal day, your likely to miss your connection due to delayed/cancelled flights. Throw in a bit of bad weather and/or construction and your doomed. This by the way isnt necessarily aimed at UA, although they are the dominant carrier at SFO.



Ummm, okay, by all means, go ahead and *waste* your time making a triple (if not, quadruple connection) just to fly through ICN...
I also think that many folks feel that SFO is more delay-prone that it actually is. Yeah, in the winter time we can have some low cigs and reduced vis but that's typical up and down the West Coast (save for LAX and SAN). Throw in intersecting runways (a necessity due to prevailing winds in the area) and tight taxiways and concourse placement, it's actually a beautiful wonder to observe SFO ops when winds are light, vis is unlimited, and all runways are useable.



I think Jumbo Jet is being a little over dramatic! For starters International flights have priority into SFO and tend to be delayed in and outgoing less then domestic. I have rarely had too many issues outside of the usual things that could occur at any airport, and I've flown a lot out of SFO. UA connections can sometimes be an issue onto international, although that may not be due to SFO just backlog from other hubs, flights etc. Granted SFO has many challenges, and I'm not excusing the area for not building new runways 20 years ago, which would have solved most of this. But Jumbo Jet is being absurd in his statements, as many prefer to transit SFO more then many other airports especially west coast one's, such as LAX. SEA has much smaller international ops, so if something goes wrong which is happening a lot their lately your much more up the ships creek when it comes to getting another flight, or seat, etc. SFO has a lot of options and it's a great place for food and drink if you have to kill a few extra hours.
 
SFOtoORD
Posts: 1109
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:26 am

Re: SFO Runway 28L closure - How Bad?

Sat Sep 14, 2019 4:37 pm

IADCA wrote:
SFOtoORD wrote:
Judge1310 wrote:

So we're just going to ignore the large foothills literally within 2 miles to the west and southwest of SFO airport, those same foothills of the Santa Cruz Mountains that create microclimates along the SF Peninsula? Let me guess, you're probably not from around here (SFO) are ya? :roll:


OAK is not so far from hills either and I’m sure SJC deals w the Santa Cruz mtns on approach as well.


Those statements are both true but are also meaningless. The mountains have a much less dramatic effect on the weather immediately around SJC than the same range does at SFO because the Peninsula is so much narrower up by SFO. It's both much closer to the mountains and much closer to the ocean on the other side than is SJC, where the combination temperature gradient from the ocean water to land is what drives the weather near SFO (and notably not down near SJC - as anyone who's lived in the Bay Area will tell you and thus I presume you know, the weather up near SF tells you little about even what it'll be like in Menlo Park or Palo Alto, let alone Santa Clara or San Jose).


OAK is a mirror of SFO from a landscape perspective, but it doesn’t have the nearly the volume or intersecting runways. Maybe tone down the unsubstantiated commentary.
 
Judge1310
Posts: 345
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:55 pm

Re: SFO Runway 28L closure - How Bad?

Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:53 pm

SFOtoORD wrote:
IADCA wrote:
SFOtoORD wrote:

OAK is not so far from hills either and I’m sure SJC deals w the Santa Cruz mtns on approach as well.


Those statements are both true but are also meaningless. The mountains have a much less dramatic effect on the weather immediately around SJC than the same range does at SFO because the Peninsula is so much narrower up by SFO. It's both much closer to the mountains and much closer to the ocean on the other side than is SJC, where the combination temperature gradient from the ocean water to land is what drives the weather near SFO (and notably not down near SJC - as anyone who's lived in the Bay Area will tell you and thus I presume you know, the weather up near SF tells you little about even what it'll be like in Menlo Park or Palo Alto, let alone Santa Clara or San Jose).


OAK is a mirror of SFO from a landscape perspective, but it doesn’t have the nearly the volume or intersecting runways. Maybe tone down the unsubstantiated commentary.


Hey SFOtoORD, are you referencing me? If not, please clarify to whom you're responding...
 
SFOtoORD
Posts: 1109
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:26 am

Re: SFO Runway 28L closure - How Bad?

Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:12 pm

Judge1310 wrote:
SFOtoORD wrote:
IADCA wrote:

Those statements are both true but are also meaningless. The mountains have a much less dramatic effect on the weather immediately around SJC than the same range does at SFO because the Peninsula is so much narrower up by SFO. It's both much closer to the mountains and much closer to the ocean on the other side than is SJC, where the combination temperature gradient from the ocean water to land is what drives the weather near SFO (and notably not down near SJC - as anyone who's lived in the Bay Area will tell you and thus I presume you know, the weather up near SF tells you little about even what it'll be like in Menlo Park or Palo Alto, let alone Santa Clara or San Jose).


OAK is a mirror of SFO from a landscape perspective, but it doesn’t have the nearly the volume or intersecting runways. Maybe tone down the unsubstantiated commentary.


Hey SFOtoORD, are you referencing me? If not, please clarify to whom you're responding...


The post immediately preceding mine that is a response to mine. They are threaded.
 
IADCA
Posts: 1864
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:24 am

Re: SFO Runway 28L closure - How Bad?

Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:47 am

SFOtoORD wrote:
IADCA wrote:
SFOtoORD wrote:

OAK is not so far from hills either and I’m sure SJC deals w the Santa Cruz mtns on approach as well.


Those statements are both true but are also meaningless. The mountains have a much less dramatic effect on the weather immediately around SJC than the same range does at SFO because the Peninsula is so much narrower up by SFO. It's both much closer to the mountains and much closer to the ocean on the other side than is SJC, where the combination temperature gradient from the ocean water to land is what drives the weather near SFO (and notably not down near SJC - as anyone who's lived in the Bay Area will tell you and thus I presume you know, the weather up near SF tells you little about even what it'll be like in Menlo Park or Palo Alto, let alone Santa Clara or San Jose).


OAK is a mirror of SFO from a landscape perspective, but it doesn’t have the nearly the volume or intersecting runways. Maybe tone down the unsubstantiated commentary.


It's not really a mirror. The terrain on the SF side is closer to the field than it is on the Oakland side, and the direction of prevailing winds means they (and the weather patterns they interact with and create) affect field operations less than the hills near SFO do. But you're right about the intersecting runways being an issue.
 
User avatar
UPlog
Posts: 409
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:45 am

Re: SFO Runway 28L closure - How Bad?

Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:20 am

Pretty bad for Saturday. Average delay of 2:28


CTL ELEMENT: SFO
ELEMENT TYPE: APT
ADL TIME: 0108Z
DELAY ASSIGNMENT MODE: UDP
ARRIVALS ESTIMATED FOR: 15/0200Z - 15/0659Z
CUMULATIVE PROGRAM PERIOD: 14/1500Z - 15/0659Z
PROGRAM RATE: 30
FLT INCL: ALL CONTIGUOUS US DEP
DEP SCOPE: (ALL+CZV_AP) ZLA ZAU ZLC ZTL ZDC ZNY ZHU ZJX ZFW ZOB ZDV
ZOA ZSE ZBW ZMA ZKC ZME ZID ZAB ZMP
CANADIAN DEP ARPTS INCLUDED: CYEG CYVR CYYC
DELAY ASSIGNMENT TABLE APPLIES TO: ZOA
MAXIMUM DELAY: 863
AVERAGE DELAY: 148
IMPACTING CONDITION: RWY-TAXI / CONSTRUCTION
COMMENTS: ARR 28R DEP 01R
 
SFOtoORD
Posts: 1109
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:26 am

Re: SFO Runway 28L closure - How Bad?

Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:02 am

IADCA wrote:
SFOtoORD wrote:
IADCA wrote:

Those statements are both true but are also meaningless. The mountains have a much less dramatic effect on the weather immediately around SJC than the same range does at SFO because the Peninsula is so much narrower up by SFO. It's both much closer to the mountains and much closer to the ocean on the other side than is SJC, where the combination temperature gradient from the ocean water to land is what drives the weather near SFO (and notably not down near SJC - as anyone who's lived in the Bay Area will tell you and thus I presume you know, the weather up near SF tells you little about even what it'll be like in Menlo Park or Palo Alto, let alone Santa Clara or San Jose).


OAK is a mirror of SFO from a landscape perspective, but it doesn’t have the nearly the volume or intersecting runways. Maybe tone down the unsubstantiated commentary.


It's not really a mirror. The terrain on the SF side is closer to the field than it is on the Oakland side, and the direction of prevailing winds means they (and the weather patterns they interact with and create) affect field operations less than the hills near SFO do. But you're right about the intersecting runways being an issue.


It’s pretty similar. Maybe instead of 3 miles to the hills it’s 5. OAK doesn’t get the same fog, but the way the fog rolls through the GG Bridge is funky and less predictable. But ultimately less traffic makes it simpler.
 
jetwet1
Posts: 2907
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:42 am

Re: SFO Runway 28L closure - How Bad?

Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:34 am

UPlog wrote:
Pretty bad for Saturday. Average delay of 2:28


CTL ELEMENT: SFO
ELEMENT TYPE: APT
ADL TIME: 0108Z
DELAY ASSIGNMENT MODE: UDP
ARRIVALS ESTIMATED FOR: 15/0200Z - 15/0659Z
CUMULATIVE PROGRAM PERIOD: 14/1500Z - 15/0659Z
PROGRAM RATE: 30
FLT INCL: ALL CONTIGUOUS US DEP
DEP SCOPE: (ALL+CZV_AP) ZLA ZAU ZLC ZTL ZDC ZNY ZHU ZJX ZFW ZOB ZDV
ZOA ZSE ZBW ZMA ZKC ZME ZID ZAB ZMP
CANADIAN DEP ARPTS INCLUDED: CYEG CYVR CYYC
DELAY ASSIGNMENT TABLE APPLIES TO: ZOA
MAXIMUM DELAY: 863
AVERAGE DELAY: 148
IMPACTING CONDITION: RWY-TAXI / CONSTRUCTION
COMMENTS: ARR 28R DEP 01R



I just flew SFO-LAS on AS leaving at 16:45, we were in the air by 16:50, guess I got lucky.
 
virage
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:59 am

Re: SFO Runway 28L closure - How Bad?

Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:21 pm

SFO is simply a badly placed and badly designed airport:

- Traffic over the bay is a bad idea, affecting SJC and OAK.
- The crossing runway layout is another bad idea.

San Francisco needs a new airport similar to LAX: ocean facing with a parallel runway pair layout.
 
26point2
Posts: 1066
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:01 am

Re: SFO Runway 28L closure - How Bad?

Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:34 pm

jetwet1 wrote:
UPlog wrote:
Pretty bad for Saturday. Average delay of 2:28


CTL ELEMENT: SFO
ELEMENT TYPE: APT
ADL TIME: 0108Z
DELAY ASSIGNMENT MODE: UDP
ARRIVALS ESTIMATED FOR: 15/0200Z - 15/0659Z
CUMULATIVE PROGRAM PERIOD: 14/1500Z - 15/0659Z
PROGRAM RATE: 30
FLT INCL: ALL CONTIGUOUS US DEP
DEP SCOPE: (ALL+CZV_AP) ZLA ZAU ZLC ZTL ZDC ZNY ZHU ZJX ZFW ZOB ZDV
ZOA ZSE ZBW ZMA ZKC ZME ZID ZAB ZMP
CANADIAN DEP ARPTS INCLUDED: CYEG CYVR CYYC
DELAY ASSIGNMENT TABLE APPLIES TO: ZOA
MAXIMUM DELAY: 863
AVERAGE DELAY: 148
IMPACTING CONDITION: RWY-TAXI / CONSTRUCTION
COMMENTS: ARR 28R DEP 01R



I just flew SFO-LAS on AS leaving at 16:45, we were in the air by 16:50, guess I got lucky.


It’s the arrivals that are delayed...not departures. Check back here after you return to SFO and let us know how it went.
 
User avatar
UPlog
Posts: 409
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Re: SFO Runway 28L closure - How Bad?

Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:44 pm

Nearly 3-hour average delay for Sunday


CTL ELEMENT: SFO
ELEMENT TYPE: APT
ADL TIME: 1249Z
DELAY ASSIGNMENT MODE: UDP
ARRIVALS ESTIMATED FOR: 15/1400Z - 16/0759Z
CUMULATIVE PROGRAM PERIOD: 15/1400Z - 16/0759Z
PROGRAM RATE: 27/27/27/27/27/30/30/30/30/30/30/30/30/30/30/30/30/30
FLT INCL: ALL CONTIGUOUS US DEP
DEP SCOPE: (MANUAL) ZLA ZAU ZLC ZTL ZDC ZNY ZHU ZJX ZFW ZOB ZDV ZOA
ZSE ZBW ZMA ZKC ZME ZID ZAB ZMP
CANADIAN DEP ARPTS INCLUDED: CYEG CYVR CYYC
DELAY ASSIGNMENT TABLE APPLIES TO: ZOA
MAXIMUM DELAY: 298
AVERAGE DELAY: 176
IMPACTING CONDITION: RWY-TAXI / CONSTRUCTION
 
User avatar
UPlog
Posts: 409
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:45 am

Re: SFO Runway 28L closure - How Bad?

Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:07 pm

3+ hour average delays on Monday


CTL ELEMENT: SFO
ELEMENT TYPE: APT
ADL TIME: 1243Z
DELAY ASSIGNMENT MODE: UDP
ARRIVALS ESTIMATED FOR: 16/1400Z - 17/0759Z
CUMULATIVE PROGRAM PERIOD: 16/1400Z - 17/0759Z
PROGRAM RATE: 27/27/27/27/27/27/27/30/30/30/30/30/30/30/30/30/30/30
FLT INCL: ALL CONTIGUOUS US DEP
DEP SCOPE: (ALL+CZV_AP) ZLA ZAU ZLC ZTL ZDC ZNY ZHU ZJX ZFW ZOB ZDV
ZOA ZSE ZBW ZMA ZKC ZME ZID ZAB ZMP
CANADIAN DEP ARPTS INCLUDED: CYEG CYVR CYYC
DELAY ASSIGNMENT TABLE APPLIES TO: ZOA
MAXIMUM DELAY: 308
AVERAGE DELAY: 190
IMPACTING CONDITION: RWY-TAXI / CONSTRUCTION
 
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LAXintl
Posts: 23823
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Re: SFO Runway 28L closure - How Bad?

Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:10 pm

From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
User avatar
UPlog
Posts: 409
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:45 am

Re: SFO Runway 28L closure - How Bad?

Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:02 pm

Near 3 hour average delays today

CTL ELEMENT: SFO
ELEMENT TYPE: APT
ADL TIME: 1251Z
DELAY ASSIGNMENT MODE: UDP
ARRIVALS ESTIMATED FOR: 18/1400Z - 19/0759Z
CUMULATIVE PROGRAM PERIOD: 18/1400Z - 19/0759Z
PROGRAM RATE: 27/27/27/27/27/27/27/27/30/30/30/30/30/30/30/30/30/30
FLT INCL: ALL CONTIGUOUS US DEP
DEP SCOPE: (MANUAL) ZLA ZAU ZLC ZTL ZDC ZNY ZHU ZJX ZFW ZOB ZDV ZOA
ZSE ZBW ZMA ZKC ZME ZID ZAB ZMP
CANADIAN DEP ARPTS INCLUDED: CYEG CYVR CYYC CYYJ CYLW
MAXIMUM DELAY: 299
AVERAGE DELAY: 177
IMPACTING CONDITION: RWY-TAXI / CONSTRUCTION
 
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janders
Moderator
Posts: 873
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:27 pm

Re: SFO Runway 28L closure - How Bad?

Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:08 pm

A story about United added a Burbank-LAX flight on A319 to move an aircraft and passengers due to extensive delays on original planned BUR-SFO route.

https://liveandletsfly.boardingarea.com ... ax-flight/
https://simpleflying.com/united-airline ... s-express/
"We make war that we may live in peace." -- Aristotle
 
User avatar
KLMatSJC
Posts: 506
Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2010 1:16 am

Re: SFO Runway 28L closure - How Bad?

Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:18 pm

All runways are set to open tomorrow at 21:00L, more than a week early.
A318/19/20/21/21N A332/3 A343/5 A388 B712 B722 B732/3/4/7/8/9/9ER B744/4M B752/3 B762ER/3/3ER/4ER B77E/L/W B788 CRJ2/7/9 Q400 EMB-120 ERJ-135/140/145/145XR/175 DC-10-10 MD-82/83/88/90

Long Live the Tulip, Cactus, and Redwood
 
UALifer
Posts: 60
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:35 am

Re: SFO Runway 28L closure - How Bad?

Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:25 pm

KLMatSJC wrote:
All runways are set to open tomorrow at 21:00L, more than a week early.


Airport press release: https://www.flysfo.com/media/press-rele ... d-schedule

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