Gulfstream500
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Spirit Airlines looking at larger aircraft from Boeing

Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:48 am

Not much detail was given, other than this:

“The A321neo is certainly something we’re looking at, but we’re also in conversations with Boeing about their larger airplane too, so it’s all on the table,”
- Ted Christie, Spirit Airlines CEO


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-spir ... SKCN1VG1WN

Could this mean orders for the 797? The MAX-10?

Also, any updates on a future A220/Below-A320 sized aircraft order that Spirit was considering?
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gatibosgru
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Re: Spirit Airlines looking at larger aircraft from Boeing

Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:50 am

Color me skeptical. My guess is they want some nice deals on the A321NEO.
@DadCelo
 
tphuang
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Re: Spirit Airlines looking at larger aircraft from Boeing

Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:15 am

Negotiation tactic
 
jeffrey0032j
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Re: Spirit Airlines looking at larger aircraft from Boeing

Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:24 am

If the 797 is developed, and meets the rumored advantages of speeding up turnarounds and narrowbody costs, I could see how airlines like Spirit would prefer it over the 321.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Spirit Airlines looking at larger aircraft from Boeing

Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:21 am

Lol. Yeah, right. You have a better chance of seeing four additional runways at LHR before Spirit buys a Boeing. :lol:
 
santi319
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Re: Spirit Airlines looking at larger aircraft from Boeing

Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:38 am

Widebodies? Long haul low cost could work with NK
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Spirit Airlines looking at larger aircraft from Boeing

Tue Aug 27, 2019 4:25 am

tphuang wrote:
Negotiation tactic

Yes. Everyone does recall when EasyJet just negotiated with Airbus...

An Airbus order to loose, but if Boeing bids low enough...

Lightsaber
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wedgetail737
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Re: Spirit Airlines looking at larger aircraft from Boeing

Tue Aug 27, 2019 4:41 am

NK with Boeing aircraft? Yeah...right.
 
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PacoMartin
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Re: Spirit Airlines looking at larger aircraft from Boeing

Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:17 am

Gulfstream500 wrote:
Could this mean orders for the 797? The MAX-10?

I think we should dismiss the 797, as a small airline is unlikely to be thinking about a wide-body which doesn't exist.

Right now the seven narrow-body USA airlines do not fly routes longer than 2500 nm (Alaska Air from Anchorage to KOA on Big Island of Hawaii)
Alaska Airlines Inc.
JetBlue Airways
Southwest Airlines Co.
Spirit Air Lines
Sun Country Airlines d/b/a MN Airlines
Frontier Airlines Inc.
Allegiant Air

United flies from Houston to Sydney and Hawaiian flies from Honolulu to Boston (further than HNL to SYD). Delta flies from Atlanta to Johannesburg and American flies from DFW to Hong Kong. Hawaiian is obviously the only small airline to invest in long-range aircraft.

Spirit already goes to 7 destinations in South America in three countries: Columbia, Ecuador, and Peru.

At first glance, you would think that the B737 MAX with it's considerably longer range would open up huge possibilities. For instance, Gol Transportes Aéreos plans to open up a MAX-8 route on the 3300 nautical miles from Brasilia (17 MAP per year) to Orlando.

But Brasilia is only one airport and it is only accessible from Florida on a MAX. The other airports are São Paulo–Guarulhos (43 MAP), Rio de Janeiro–Galeão (15 MAP), Ministro Pistarini (11 MAP), Arturo Merino Benítez (23 MAP) cannot be reached on the MAX.

I just can't see Spirit investing in a new model to just open up a single major destination. What would make more sense is to invest in the longer-range A321neo aircraft and open up all of South America from FLL.
Last edited by PacoMartin on Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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seabosdca
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Re: Spirit Airlines looking at larger aircraft from Boeing

Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:30 am

"In conversations" means whatever Christie wants it to mean. It could cover anything from "we asked them for a brochure" to "we have an order 3/4 of the way negotiated."

I'm sure every airline of any size in the world that operates large narrowbodies has had "conversations" with Boeing about the 797. The question is whether any of them have the juice to get delivery slots coincident with the US3's. ANA or KLM might be in that category. Spirit… no.
 
WN732
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Re: Spirit Airlines looking at larger aircraft from Boeing

Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:42 am

Airways magazine back in 2006 said that Southwest was interested in the 787.......... Nothingburger.
 
KFLLCFII
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Re: Spirit Airlines looking at larger aircraft from Boeing

Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:51 am

PacoMartin wrote:
Gulfstream500 wrote:
Could this mean orders for the 797? The MAX-10?

I think we should dismiss the 797, as a small airline is unlikely to be thinking about a wide-body which doesn't exist.

Right now the narrow-body USA airlines do not fly routes longer than 2500 nm (Alaska Air from Anchorage to KOA on Big Island of Hawaii)
Alaska Airlines Inc.
JetBlue Airways
Southwest Airlines Co.
Spirit Air Lines
Sun Country Airlines d/b/a MN Airlines
Frontier Airlines Inc.
Allegiant Air

Spirit already goes to 7 destinations in South America in three countries: Columbia, Ecuador and Peru.

At first glance you would think that the B737 MAX with it's considerably longer range would open up huge possibilities. For instance, Gol Transportes Aéreos plans to open up a MAX-8 route on the 3300 nautical miles from Brasilia (17 MAP per year) to Orlando.

But Brasilia is only one airport and it is only accessible from Florida on a MAX. The other airports are São Paulo–Guarulhos (43 MAP) , Rio de Janeiro–Galeão (15 MAP) , Ministro Pistarini (11 MAP), Arturo Merino Benítez (23 MAP) cannot be reached on the MAX.

I just can't see Spirit investing in a new model to just open up a single major destination. What would make more sense is to invest in the longer range A321neo aircraft and open up all of South America from FLL.


On those shorter routes, the 797 sounds like it would be a payload monster. It's not always about range.

And considering how packed FLL's Spirit operation tends to be, it seems they could stand to begin to introduce a marginally larger aircraft family, especially that whose efficiency is not handicapped by a 30-year old design/wing and has not already reached a practical stretch limit (without getting into 753-like issues).

If the 797 is built to fit a Code C gate, the 321 is a dead bird flying.
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Luke1994
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Re: Spirit Airlines looking at larger aircraft from Boeing

Tue Aug 27, 2019 6:00 am

KFLLCFII wrote:
PacoMartin wrote:
Gulfstream500 wrote:
Could this mean orders for the 797? The MAX-10?

I think we should dismiss the 797, as a small airline is unlikely to be thinking about a wide-body which doesn't exist.

Right now the narrow-body USA airlines do not fly routes longer than 2500 nm (Alaska Air from Anchorage to KOA on Big Island of Hawaii)
Alaska Airlines Inc.
JetBlue Airways
Southwest Airlines Co.
Spirit Air Lines
Sun Country Airlines d/b/a MN Airlines
Frontier Airlines Inc.
Allegiant Air

Spirit already goes to 7 destinations in South America in three countries: Columbia, Ecuador and Peru.

At first glance you would think that the B737 MAX with it's considerably longer range would open up huge possibilities. For instance, Gol Transportes Aéreos plans to open up a MAX-8 route on the 3300 nautical miles from Brasilia (17 MAP per year) to Orlando.

But Brasilia is only one airport and it is only accessible from Florida on a MAX. The other airports are São Paulo–Guarulhos (43 MAP) , Rio de Janeiro–Galeão (15 MAP) , Ministro Pistarini (11 MAP), Arturo Merino Benítez (23 MAP) cannot be reached on the MAX.

I just can't see Spirit investing in a new model to just open up a single major destination. What would make more sense is to invest in the longer range A321neo aircraft and open up all of South America from FLL.


On those shorter routes, the 797 sounds like it would be a payload monster. It's not always about range.

And considering how packed FLL's Spirit operation tends to be, it seems they could stand to begin to introduce a marginally larger aircraft family, especially that whose efficiency is not handicapped by a 30-year old design/wing and has not already reached a practical stretch limit (without getting into 753-like issues).

If the 797 is built to fit a Code C gate, the 321 is a dead bird flying.

That sure sounds like a lot of hypotheticals. If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a merry Christmas.

The second Boeing flinches and announces the 797, Airbus will announce an A322 or A321 NEO XXXXXLR with an all new wing. A321 is the future, and Airbus will be making money hand over fist on it for years to come.
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TTailedTiger
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Re: Spirit Airlines looking at larger aircraft from Boeing

Tue Aug 27, 2019 6:07 am

Luke1994 wrote:
KFLLCFII wrote:
PacoMartin wrote:
I think we should dismiss the 797, as a small airline is unlikely to be thinking about a wide-body which doesn't exist.

Right now the narrow-body USA airlines do not fly routes longer than 2500 nm (Alaska Air from Anchorage to KOA on Big Island of Hawaii)
Alaska Airlines Inc.
JetBlue Airways
Southwest Airlines Co.
Spirit Air Lines
Sun Country Airlines d/b/a MN Airlines
Frontier Airlines Inc.
Allegiant Air

Spirit already goes to 7 destinations in South America in three countries: Columbia, Ecuador and Peru.

At first glance you would think that the B737 MAX with it's considerably longer range would open up huge possibilities. For instance, Gol Transportes Aéreos plans to open up a MAX-8 route on the 3300 nautical miles from Brasilia (17 MAP per year) to Orlando.

But Brasilia is only one airport and it is only accessible from Florida on a MAX. The other airports are São Paulo–Guarulhos (43 MAP) , Rio de Janeiro–Galeão (15 MAP) , Ministro Pistarini (11 MAP), Arturo Merino Benítez (23 MAP) cannot be reached on the MAX.

I just can't see Spirit investing in a new model to just open up a single major destination. What would make more sense is to invest in the longer range A321neo aircraft and open up all of South America from FLL.


On those shorter routes, the 797 sounds like it would be a payload monster. It's not always about range.

And considering how packed FLL's Spirit operation tends to be, it seems they could stand to begin to introduce a marginally larger aircraft family, especially that whose efficiency is not handicapped by a 30-year old design/wing and has not already reached a practical stretch limit (without getting into 753-like issues).

If the 797 is built to fit a Code C gate, the 321 is a dead bird flying.

That sure sounds like a lot of hypotheticals. If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a merry Christmas.

The second Boeing flinches and announces the 797, Airbus will announce an A322 or A321 NEO XXXXXLR with an all new wing. A321 is the future, and Airbus will be making money hand over fist on it for years to come.


A321 is "the future"? What does that even mean? Future of what?
 
Luke1994
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Re: Spirit Airlines looking at larger aircraft from Boeing

Tue Aug 27, 2019 6:22 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Luke1994 wrote:
KFLLCFII wrote:

On those shorter routes, the 797 sounds like it would be a payload monster. It's not always about range.

And considering how packed FLL's Spirit operation tends to be, it seems they could stand to begin to introduce a marginally larger aircraft family, especially that whose efficiency is not handicapped by a 30-year old design/wing and has not already reached a practical stretch limit (without getting into 753-like issues).

If the 797 is built to fit a Code C gate, the 321 is a dead bird flying.

That sure sounds like a lot of hypotheticals. If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a merry Christmas.

The second Boeing flinches and announces the 797, Airbus will announce an A322 or A321 NEO XXXXXLR with an all new wing. A321 is the future, and Airbus will be making money hand over fist on it for years to come.


A321 is "the future"? What does that even mean? Future of what?

It means fuel efficient and cost efficient stretched NB aircraft are what airlines are going to want in the near future. 797 will be a great aircraft no doubt, but don’t think it’s going to blindside Airbus or the A320 family.

Saying the 321 is a dead bird flying because of a hypothetical aircraft (that doesn’t technically even exist mind you) having hypothetical capabilities is mental masturbation. Meanwhile, Airbus has, what... 2,000 orders for just the NEO alone they have to fill within the next 10 years or so?
Last edited by Luke1994 on Tue Aug 27, 2019 6:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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KFLLCFII
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Re: Spirit Airlines looking at larger aircraft from Boeing

Tue Aug 27, 2019 6:27 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Luke1994 wrote:
KFLLCFII wrote:

On those shorter routes, the 797 sounds like it would be a payload monster. It's not always about range.

And considering how packed FLL's Spirit operation tends to be, it seems they could stand to begin to introduce a marginally larger aircraft family, especially that whose efficiency is not handicapped by a 30-year old design/wing and has not already reached a practical stretch limit (without getting into 753-like issues).

If the 797 is built to fit a Code C gate, the 321 is a dead bird flying.

That sure sounds like a lot of hypotheticals. If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a merry Christmas.

The second Boeing flinches and announces the 797, Airbus will announce an A322 or A321 NEO XXXXXLR with an all new wing. A321 is the future, and Airbus will be making money hand over fist on it for years to come.


A321 is "the future"? What does that even mean? Future of what?


Boneyards.

No doubt Airbus will continue to make money on it short-mid term, but the A321 is not the "future" of the middle-market share in any form, absent their own clean-sheet.
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Spirit Airlines looking at larger aircraft from Boeing

Tue Aug 27, 2019 6:30 am

Luke1994 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Luke1994 wrote:
That sure sounds like a lot of hypotheticals. If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a merry Christmas.

The second Boeing flinches and announces the 797, Airbus will announce an A322 or A321 NEO XXXXXLR with an all new wing. A321 is the future, and Airbus will be making money hand over fist on it for years to come.


A321 is "the future"? What does that even mean? Future of what?

It means fuel efficient and cost efficient stretched NB aircraft are what airlines are going to want in the near future. 797 will be a great aircraft no doubt, but don’t think it’s going to blindside Airbus or the A320 family.

Saying the 321 is a dead bird flying because of a hypothetical aircraft (that doesn’t technically even exist mind you) having hypothetical capabilities is mental masturbation. Meanwhile, Airbus has, what... 2,000 orders for just the NEO alone they have to fill within the next 10 years or so?


The A321 may work for domestic and ULCC TATL ops but it is not and never will be able to accommodate the type of premium cabin legacy airline passengers expect. Those customers want direct aisle access. 1X1 seating would take up too much cabin space for any meaningful number of seats. A 797 would be able to accommodate a 1-2-1 configuration. Some of you have even suggested that UA and F9 will operate the A321XLR from DEN to Europe. What a joke.
 
Luke1994
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Re: Spirit Airlines looking at larger aircraft from Boeing

Tue Aug 27, 2019 6:39 am

KFLLCFII wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Luke1994 wrote:
That sure sounds like a lot of hypotheticals. If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a merry Christmas.

The second Boeing flinches and announces the 797, Airbus will announce an A322 or A321 NEO XXXXXLR with an all new wing. A321 is the future, and Airbus will be making money hand over fist on it for years to come.


A321 is "the future"? What does that even mean? Future of what?


Boneyards.

No doubt Airbus will continue to make money on it short-mid term, but the A321 is not the "future" of the middle-market share in any form, absent their own clean-sheet.

Nonsense. Airlines won’t be ditching their shiny new Airbii for an aircraft that’s still a good 5 years away from even being unveiled, especially given Boeing’s recent track record with new aircraft.

But let’s say for fun Boeing does indeed launch a totally badass, gangbusters 797 that blows the current 321NEO away with 500nm more range, 25 more seats, and 10T higher MTOW. Sounds like a game changer and 321 killer, right?

...nah. Airbus will introduce their rewing’d A321 and all-new stretched A322, erasing the advantage Boeing thought it had with its clean sheet design. Boeing is currently stuck between a rock and a hard place, with the MAX being the rock, and Airbus being the hard place. Boeing can’t move a midsize plane right now to save their lives, and airlines are hemorrhaging money by not being able to fly their shiny new toys that have been cratered a bunch of times. At this point, I think the general public may actively avoid the MAX even if it’s ever fixed, which is a shame, as it’s a very nice aircraft outside of, well... you know..

Anyways, I can imagine there are many sleepless nights over in Chicago, and it won’t be getting any better...
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TTailedTiger
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Re: Spirit Airlines looking at larger aircraft from Boeing

Tue Aug 27, 2019 6:43 am

Luke1994 wrote:
KFLLCFII wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

A321 is "the future"? What does that even mean? Future of what?


Boneyards.

No doubt Airbus will continue to make money on it short-mid term, but the A321 is not the "future" of the middle-market share in any form, absent their own clean-sheet.

Nonsense. Airlines won’t be ditching their shiny new Airbii for an aircraft that’s still a good 5 years away from even being unveiled, especially given Boeing’s recent track record with new aircraft.

But let’s say for fun Boeing does indeed launch a totally badass, gangbusters 797 that blows the current 321NEO away with 500nm more range, 25 more seats, and 10T higher MTOW. Sounds like a game changer and 321 killer, right?

...nah. Airbus will introduce their rewing’d A321 and all-new stretched A322, erasing the advantage Boeing thought it had with its clean sheet design. Boeing is currently stuck between a rock and a hard place, with the MAX being the rock, and Airbus being the hard place. Boeing can’t move a midsize plane right now to save their lives, and airlines are hemorrhaging money by not being able to fly their shiny new toys that have been cratered a bunch of times. At this point, I think the general public may actively avoid the MAX even if it’s ever fixed, which is a shame, as it’s a very nice aircraft outside of, well... you know..

Anyways, I can imagine there are many sleepless nights over in Chicago, and it won’t be getting any better...


I still don't follow your logic. Even if a new wing 321 and 322 matched the economics of the 797, why would an airline order a narrowbody if they can get a widebody with the operating costs of a narrowbody? Especially if Boeing is competitive on price. Boeing made sure the A330neo would never gain critical mass with their ability to refine and scale 787 production and offer a lower price. They would do the same with the 797.
 
Luke1994
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Re: Spirit Airlines looking at larger aircraft from Boeing

Tue Aug 27, 2019 6:45 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Luke1994 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

A321 is "the future"? What does that even mean? Future of what?

It means fuel efficient and cost efficient stretched NB aircraft are what airlines are going to want in the near future. 797 will be a great aircraft no doubt, but don’t think it’s going to blindside Airbus or the A320 family.

Saying the 321 is a dead bird flying because of a hypothetical aircraft (that doesn’t technically even exist mind you) having hypothetical capabilities is mental masturbation. Meanwhile, Airbus has, what... 2,000 orders for just the NEO alone they have to fill within the next 10 years or so?


The A321 may work for domestic and ULCC TATL ops but it is not and never will be able to accommodate the type of premium cabin legacy airline passengers expect. Those customers want direct aisle access. 1X1 seating would take up too much cabin space for any meaningful number of seats. A 797 would be able to accommodate a 1-2-1 configuration. Some of you have even suggested that UA and F9 will operate the A321XLR from DEN to Europe. What a joke.

DEN-Europe is well beyond what it’s designed to do. But what about CLE-Europe? PIT-Europe? BWI-Europe? Those routes are what that plane has been made to open up.

The hard product on something like AA’s Flagship transcontinental first is pretty darn nice, and not really all that different than a crusty 767 the and many others send from, say, DEN/DFW/ORD-Europe. Even B6’s Mint would be quite pleasant on a 8 hour ride. I wouldn’t mind it, personally from say DTW-DUB or something like that,

Will the potential ‘97 take LD3s? That’s another Airbus “AAdvantage”.
CMEL student for now...
 
dampfnudel
Posts: 420
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Re: Spirit Airlines looking at larger aircraft from Boeing

Tue Aug 27, 2019 6:46 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Luke1994 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

A321 is "the future"? What does that even mean? Future of what?

It means fuel efficient and cost efficient stretched NB aircraft are what airlines are going to want in the near future. 797 will be a great aircraft no doubt, but don’t think it’s going to blindside Airbus or the A320 family.

Saying the 321 is a dead bird flying because of a hypothetical aircraft (that doesn’t technically even exist mind you) having hypothetical capabilities is mental masturbation. Meanwhile, Airbus has, what... 2,000 orders for just the NEO alone they have to fill within the next 10 years or so?


The A321 may work for domestic and ULCC TATL ops but it is not and never will be able to accommodate the type of premium cabin legacy airline passengers expect. Those customers want direct aisle access. 1X1 seating would take up too much cabin space for any meaningful number of seats. A 797 would be able to accommodate a 1-2-1 configuration. Some of you have even suggested that UA and F9 will operate the A321XLR from DEN to Europe. What a joke.

Yes, that’s highly unlikely. Now, the A321XLR would probably be a good fit for UA at EWR.
A313 332 343 B703 712 722 732 73G 738 739 741 742 744 752 762 76E 764 772 AT5 CR9 D10 DHH DHT F27 GRM L10 M83 TU5

AA AI CO CL DE DL EA HA KL LH N7 PA PQ SK RO TW UA YR
 
Luke1994
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Re: Spirit Airlines looking at larger aircraft from Boeing

Tue Aug 27, 2019 6:47 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Luke1994 wrote:
KFLLCFII wrote:

Boneyards.

No doubt Airbus will continue to make money on it short-mid term, but the A321 is not the "future" of the middle-market share in any form, absent their own clean-sheet.

Nonsense. Airlines won’t be ditching their shiny new Airbii for an aircraft that’s still a good 5 years away from even being unveiled, especially given Boeing’s recent track record with new aircraft.

But let’s say for fun Boeing does indeed launch a totally badass, gangbusters 797 that blows the current 321NEO away with 500nm more range, 25 more seats, and 10T higher MTOW. Sounds like a game changer and 321 killer, right?

...nah. Airbus will introduce their rewing’d A321 and all-new stretched A322, erasing the advantage Boeing thought it had with its clean sheet design. Boeing is currently stuck between a rock and a hard place, with the MAX being the rock, and Airbus being the hard place. Boeing can’t move a midsize plane right now to save their lives, and airlines are hemorrhaging money by not being able to fly their shiny new toys that have been cratered a bunch of times. At this point, I think the general public may actively avoid the MAX even if it’s ever fixed, which is a shame, as it’s a very nice aircraft outside of, well... you know..

Anyways, I can imagine there are many sleepless nights over in Chicago, and it won’t be getting any better...


I still don't follow your logic. Even if a new wing 321 and 322 matched the economics of the 797, why would an airline order a narrowbody if they can get a widebody with the operating costs of a narrowbody? Especially if Boeing is competitive on price. Boeing made sure the A330neo would never gain critical mass with their ability to refine and scale 787 production and offer a lower price. They would do the same with the 797.

Short and fat widebodies don’t work. See: A310 and 762. And what happened to the 783? Wasn’t it supposed to be a game changer for ANA and JAL?

I’ll eat my hat if Boeing can make a widebody that’s more efficient than the 321. Call me skeptical, but I’ll believe it when I see it. Lol.
Last edited by Luke1994 on Tue Aug 27, 2019 6:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
CMEL student for now...
 
FluidFlow
Posts: 290
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Re: Spirit Airlines looking at larger aircraft from Boeing

Tue Aug 27, 2019 6:48 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Luke1994 wrote:
KFLLCFII wrote:

Boneyards.

No doubt Airbus will continue to make money on it short-mid term, but the A321 is not the "future" of the middle-market share in any form, absent their own clean-sheet.

Nonsense. Airlines won’t be ditching their shiny new Airbii for an aircraft that’s still a good 5 years away from even being unveiled, especially given Boeing’s recent track record with new aircraft.

But let’s say for fun Boeing does indeed launch a totally badass, gangbusters 797 that blows the current 321NEO away with 500nm more range, 25 more seats, and 10T higher MTOW. Sounds like a game changer and 321 killer, right?

...nah. Airbus will introduce their rewing’d A321 and all-new stretched A322, erasing the advantage Boeing thought it had with its clean sheet design. Boeing is currently stuck between a rock and a hard place, with the MAX being the rock, and Airbus being the hard place. Boeing can’t move a midsize plane right now to save their lives, and airlines are hemorrhaging money by not being able to fly their shiny new toys that have been cratered a bunch of times. At this point, I think the general public may actively avoid the MAX even if it’s ever fixed, which is a shame, as it’s a very nice aircraft outside of, well... you know..

Anyways, I can imagine there are many sleepless nights over in Chicago, and it won’t be getting any better...


I still don't follow your logic. Even if a new wing 321 and 322 matched the economics of the 797, why would an airline order a narrowbody if they can get a widebody with the operating costs of a narrowbody? Especially if Boeing is competitive on price. Boeing made sure the A330neo would never gain critical mass with their ability to refine and scale 787 production and offer a lower price. They would do the same with the 797.


We do not know if Boeing is able to give the 797 narrowbody operating costs, that is an assumption and the wet dream of the Boeing C-Level but if it would be true the 797 would already have been launched. Right now this does not seem to be possible, especially because Boeing said, that they do not want a leap in aircraft technology but a leap in production technology. Seems more like cheap selling price with higher operating costs. Problem is the A321 has right now both going for it. Thats why the 797 is still a myth.

And the 787 did offer a cheap WB and makes the life of the A330neo hell but it was a horrible birth that still needs 1400 aircraft sold to compensate for the bad start. If the 797 has the same start due to crazy pushes for cheap production then it will make life for the A321 hell... from 2030+ onwards.
 
ctrabs0114
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Re: Spirit Airlines looking at larger aircraft from Boeing

Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:08 am

Gulfstream500 wrote:
Not much detail was given, other than this:

“The A321neo is certainly something we’re looking at, but we’re also in conversations with Boeing about their larger airplane too, so it’s all on the table,”
- Ted Christie, Spirit Airlines CEO


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-spir ... SKCN1VG1WN

Could this mean orders for the 797? The MAX-10?

Also, any updates on a future A220/Below-A320 sized aircraft order that Spirit was considering?


I can't help but think that NK's interest in a hypothetical 797 or a potential 737-10 is similar to recent rumors about WN looking into the A220: a negotiating ploy. Not that I wouldn't mind seeing an A220 in WN colors or a 737-10 in NK colors, but I just don't see it happening. Or, in NK's case, I'd be shocked if that happened.
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rajincajun01
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Re: Spirit Airlines looking at larger aircraft from Boeing

Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:40 am

wedgetail737 wrote:
NK with Boeing aircraft? Yeah...right.

Remember when people said “AS with Airbus aircraft? Yeah...right.”?

Never say never in this industry.
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Polot
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Re: Spirit Airlines looking at larger aircraft from Boeing

Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:51 am

rajincajun01 wrote:
wedgetail737 wrote:
NK with Boeing aircraft? Yeah...right.

Remember when people said “AS with Airbus aircraft? Yeah...right.”?

Never say never in this industry.

Or Frontier with A320s? Or AirAsia with A320s? Or AA with A320s? or...

Hopefully Airbus takes Spirit more seriously than some members here. You can’t let the MAX grounding/“superiority” of the A321/whatever get to your head...it means Boeing will be on the offensive soon and offering great deals.
Last edited by Polot on Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
jghealey
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Re: Spirit Airlines looking at larger aircraft from Boeing

Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:52 am

Perhaps this will be another (heavily discounted) 737 MAX order à la IAG? I'm sure Spirit wouldn't care about the negative press this order would give them - and anyway this will have dissipated by the time the aircraft start to come in
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Spirit Airlines looking at larger aircraft from Boeing

Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:54 am

rajincajun01 wrote:
wedgetail737 wrote:
NK with Boeing aircraft? Yeah...right.

Remember when people said “AS with Airbus aircraft? Yeah...right.”?

Never say never in this industry.


The question to ask in how many Airbuses is Alaska going to have after all the ex-VX leases come due. The answer may well be zero.

As for Spirit, a MAX 10 doesn't offer too many advantages (small fuel burn improvement?) vs. a 321LR or 321XLR for a carrier that has a big all-32X fleet. 797s? I just don't see it. They don't have the route network for ~15 797s. They don't have a Northeast hub to make TATL work. They couldn't begin to need that many for deep South America. They're not going to use 797s in 48-state domestic service.
 
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Polot
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Re: Spirit Airlines looking at larger aircraft from Boeing

Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:59 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
rajincajun01 wrote:
wedgetail737 wrote:
NK with Boeing aircraft? Yeah...right.

Remember when people said “AS with Airbus aircraft? Yeah...right.”?

Never say never in this industry.


The question to ask in how many Airbuses is Alaska going to have after all the ex-VX leases come due. The answer may well be zero.

As for Spirit, a MAX 10 doesn't offer too many advantages (small fuel burn improvement?) vs. a 321LR or 321XLR for a carrier that has a big all-32X fleet. 797s? I just don't see it. They don't have the route network for ~15 797s. They don't have a Northeast hub to make TATL work. They couldn't begin to need that many for deep South America. They're not going to use 797s in 48-state domestic service.

I doubt the A321LR/XLR and 797 have much to do with this order.

Spirit currently has zero (0) A321neos or A321ceos on order- their entire Neo orderbook is for the A320 variant. I suspect they are looking at A321neo vs 737-10 primarily for domestic use. Depending on the size of the order they can make a split 737/A320 fleet work, they are not a tiny airline anymore.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Spirit Airlines looking at larger aircraft from Boeing

Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:02 am

rajincajun01 wrote:
wedgetail737 wrote:
NK with Boeing aircraft? Yeah...right.

Remember when people said “AS with Airbus aircraft? Yeah...right.”?

Never say never in this industry.

AS "inherited" Airbus aircraft after it purchased a competitor; that's very different than it AS had ordered directly from Airbus.
 
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OA940
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Re: Spirit Airlines looking at larger aircraft from Boeing

Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:41 am

The MAX doesn't offer any advantage for an airline with 50 or so neos on order and more in operation. The ULCC model works best with one fleet type, and the A321neo is better than the MAX 10,at least in Spirit's case. It can carry more seats over longer range.

Meanwhile the 797 is a completely hypothetical aircraft that's a decade away at the minimum. Also anyone who even suggests the 797 is meant to compete with the A321 is living in a bubble. The 797 is meant to cover the "upper 757-767" market. The XLR is meant to directly replace 752s and cover the same market in conjunction with the 338. Airbus have said so themselves.
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dcaproducer
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Re: Spirit Airlines looking at larger aircraft from Boeing

Tue Aug 27, 2019 12:33 pm

PacoMartin wrote:
Gulfstream500 wrote:
Could this mean orders for the 797? The MAX-10?

I think we should dismiss the 797, as a small airline is unlikely to be thinking about a wide-body which doesn't exist.

Right now the seven narrow-body USA airlines do not fly routes longer than 2500 nm (Alaska Air from Anchorage to KOA on Big Island of Hawaii)
Alaska Airlines Inc.
JetBlue Airways
Southwest Airlines Co.
Spirit Air Lines
Sun Country Airlines d/b/a MN Airlines
Frontier Airlines Inc.
Allegiant Air

United flies from Houston to Sydney and Hawaiian flies from Honolulu to Boston (further than HNL to SYD). Delta flies from Atlanta to Johannesburg and American flies from DFW to Hong Kong. Hawaiian is obviously the only small airline to invest in long-range aircraft.

Spirit already goes to 7 destinations in South America in three countries: Columbia, Ecuador, and Peru.

At first glance, you would think that the B737 MAX with it's considerably longer range would open up huge possibilities. For instance, Gol Transportes Aéreos plans to open up a MAX-8 route on the 3300 nautical miles from Brasilia (17 MAP per year) to Orlando.

But Brasilia is only one airport and it is only accessible from Florida on a MAX. The other airports are São Paulo–Guarulhos (43 MAP), Rio de Janeiro–Galeão (15 MAP), Ministro Pistarini (11 MAP), Arturo Merino Benítez (23 MAP) cannot be reached on the MAX.

I just can't see Spirit investing in a new model to just open up a single major destination. What would make more sense is to invest in the longer-range A321neo aircraft and open up all of South America from FLL.


First off B6 flies LAX-BOS, with is longer than 2500mi, so is AS SEA-FLL, but anyways.

AA, DL, UA all use widebody aircraft on domestic routes. Especially routes between hubs and with demand. NK could use a larger aircraft on routes where there is demand, ie: FLL to many east coast/mid-atlantic destinations. It all comes down to the economics of the aircraft. That is what NK will be looking at.
 
rajincajun01
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Re: Spirit Airlines looking at larger aircraft from Boeing

Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:06 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
rajincajun01 wrote:
wedgetail737 wrote:
NK with Boeing aircraft? Yeah...right.

Remember when people said “AS with Airbus aircraft? Yeah...right.”?

Never say never in this industry.

AS "inherited" Airbus aircraft after it purchased a competitor; that's very different than it AS had ordered directly from Airbus.

Yes but how many people said something like “they’ll never merge with an airline that is exclusively Airbus”?
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Redd
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Re: Spirit Airlines looking at larger aircraft from Boeing

Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:21 pm

KFLLCFII wrote:

If the 797 is built to fit a Code C gate, the 321 is a dead bird flying.



Yeah maybe, but in 6-8 years from now assuming Boeing gets their sh*t together.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Spirit Airlines looking at larger aircraft from Boeing

Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:34 pm

It is a critical a.net defect how many people think fleet compatibility drives mergers when carriers already have economical fleet sizes of a type. AS didn't care that VX had Airbuses. DL didn't care that NW had DC-9s, A320s, 744s and A330s. LH hasn't imposed conformity across its multiple subsidiaries.
 
DenverTed
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Re: Spirit Airlines looking at larger aircraft from Boeing

Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:53 pm

An aircraft with one quarter more seating capacity than the A321 and the same 3,000nm range would work for a lot of carriers. Who will build it, what engines will it have, what will it look like, but it is definitely a slot to be filled. 797-5, the fuselage of the 7 but with a folding wing for 36m gates and smaller engines for 3,000nm range?
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Spirit Airlines looking at larger aircraft from Boeing

Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:01 pm

rajincajun01 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
rajincajun01 wrote:
Remember when people said “AS with Airbus aircraft? Yeah...right.”?

Never say never in this industry.

AS "inherited" Airbus aircraft after it purchased a competitor; that's very different than it AS had ordered directly from Airbus.

Yes but how many people said something like “they’ll never merge with an airline that is exclusively Airbus”?

AS didn't buy VX for the planes; they bought them to kill the competition. And who knows how long AS will keep the Airbus planes?
 
musman9853
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Re: Spirit Airlines looking at larger aircraft from Boeing

Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:27 pm

PacoMartin wrote:
Gulfstream500 wrote:
Could this mean orders for the 797? The MAX-10?

I think we should dismiss the 797, as a small airline is unlikely to be thinking about a wide-body which doesn't exist.

Right now the seven narrow-body USA airlines do not fly routes longer than 2500 nm (Alaska Air from Anchorage to KOA on Big Island of Hawaii)
Alaska Airlines Inc.
JetBlue Airways
Southwest Airlines Co.
Spirit Air Lines
Sun Country Airlines d/b/a MN Airlines
Frontier Airlines Inc.
Allegiant Air

United flies from Houston to Sydney and Hawaiian flies from Honolulu to Boston (further than HNL to SYD). Delta flies from Atlanta to Johannesburg and American flies from DFW to Hong Kong. Hawaiian is obviously the only small airline to invest in long-range aircraft.

Spirit already goes to 7 destinations in South America in three countries: Columbia, Ecuador, and Peru.

At first glance, you would think that the B737 MAX with it's considerably longer range would open up huge possibilities. For instance, Gol Transportes Aéreos plans to open up a MAX-8 route on the 3300 nautical miles from Brasilia (17 MAP per year) to Orlando.

But Brasilia is only one airport and it is only accessible from Florida on a MAX. The other airports are São Paulo–Guarulhos (43 MAP), Rio de Janeiro–Galeão (15 MAP), Ministro Pistarini (11 MAP), Arturo Merino Benítez (23 MAP) cannot be reached on the MAX.

I just can't see Spirit investing in a new model to just open up a single major destination. What would make more sense is to invest in the longer-range A321neo aircraft and open up all of South America from FLL.



considering the Boeing board were about to give ATO before the max mess happened, nonexistent is a strong word. It's unofficial atm, but every airline knows the intended specs right now. It's why so many airlines are desperately trying to be launch customers for it.
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musman9853
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Re: Spirit Airlines looking at larger aircraft from Boeing

Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:29 pm

Luke1994 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Luke1994 wrote:
It means fuel efficient and cost efficient stretched NB aircraft are what airlines are going to want in the near future. 797 will be a great aircraft no doubt, but don’t think it’s going to blindside Airbus or the A320 family.

Saying the 321 is a dead bird flying because of a hypothetical aircraft (that doesn’t technically even exist mind you) having hypothetical capabilities is mental masturbation. Meanwhile, Airbus has, what... 2,000 orders for just the NEO alone they have to fill within the next 10 years or so?


The A321 may work for domestic and ULCC TATL ops but it is not and never will be able to accommodate the type of premium cabin legacy airline passengers expect. Those customers want direct aisle access. 1X1 seating would take up too much cabin space for any meaningful number of seats. A 797 would be able to accommodate a 1-2-1 configuration. Some of you have even suggested that UA and F9 will operate the A321XLR from DEN to Europe. What a joke.

DEN-Europe is well beyond what it’s designed to do. But what about CLE-Europe? PIT-Europe? BWI-Europe? Those routes are what that plane has been made to open up.

The hard product on something like AA’s Flagship transcontinental first is pretty darn nice, and not really all that different than a crusty 767 the and many others send from, say, DEN/DFW/ORD-Europe. Even B6’s Mint would be quite pleasant on a 8 hour ride. I wouldn’t mind it, personally from say DTW-DUB or something like that,

Will the potential ‘97 take LD3s? That’s another Airbus “AAdvantage”.


the container thing is way overblown. the world's largest a320 family operator doesnt use containers, so clearly it's not some amazing strength the a320 has.
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shamrock137
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Re: Spirit Airlines looking at larger aircraft from Boeing

Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:36 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:

The A321 may work for domestic and ULCC TATL ops but it is not and never will be able to accommodate the type of premium cabin legacy airline passengers expect. Those customers want direct aisle access. 1X1 seating would take up too much cabin space for any meaningful number of seats. A 797 would be able to accommodate a 1-2-1 configuration. Some of you have even suggested that UA and F9 will operate the A321XLR from DEN to Europe. What a joke.


Yet that's exactly what the spaceflex and cabin flex configurations and companies such as B6 and Thompson are working on.

https://www.thompsonaero.com/seating-range/vantagesolo/

These sorts of negotiations happen all the time, no way to know what the outcome will be until its announced, but saying "X airline would never order X aircraft!" is a bit naive. Look at the IAG MAX order, its not firm and who knows what will happen with it, but think about the uproar we would have seen if someone started a "Rumor: BA looking at major MAX order" thread before the announcement.
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lbfraga777
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Re: Spirit Airlines looking at larger aircraft from Boeing

Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:42 pm

It'll be weird seeing a Boeing in Spirit colors. :D
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Veigar
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Re: Spirit Airlines looking at larger aircraft from Boeing

Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:45 pm

Why do people act differently when an Airbus airline "looks" at Boeing aircraft vs the reverse? Remember the Southwest thread?
 
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seahawk
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Re: Spirit Airlines looking at larger aircraft from Boeing

Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:48 pm

The next launch customer for the 797 - nice!
 
heavymetal
Posts: 4571
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Re: Spirit Airlines looking at larger aircraft from Boeing

Tue Aug 27, 2019 4:32 pm

dcaproducer wrote:
PacoMartin wrote:
Gulfstream500 wrote:
Could this mean orders for the 797? The MAX-10?

I think we should dismiss the 797, as a small airline is unlikely to be thinking about a wide-body which doesn't exist.

Right now the seven narrow-body USA airlines do not fly routes longer than 2500 nm (Alaska Air from Anchorage to KOA on Big Island of Hawaii)
Alaska Airlines Inc.
JetBlue Airways
Southwest Airlines Co.
Spirit Air Lines
Sun Country Airlines d/b/a MN Airlines
Frontier Airlines Inc.
Allegiant Air

United flies from Houston to Sydney and Hawaiian flies from Honolulu to Boston (further than HNL to SYD). Delta flies from Atlanta to Johannesburg and American flies from DFW to Hong Kong. Hawaiian is obviously the only small airline to invest in long-range aircraft.

Spirit already goes to 7 destinations in South America in three countries: Columbia, Ecuador, and Peru.

At first glance, you would think that the B737 MAX with it's considerably longer range would open up huge possibilities. For instance, Gol Transportes Aéreos plans to open up a MAX-8 route on the 3300 nautical miles from Brasilia (17 MAP per year) to Orlando.

But Brasilia is only one airport and it is only accessible from Florida on a MAX. The other airports are São Paulo–Guarulhos (43 MAP), Rio de Janeiro–Galeão (15 MAP), Ministro Pistarini (11 MAP), Arturo Merino Benítez (23 MAP) cannot be reached on the MAX.

I just can't see Spirit investing in a new model to just open up a single major destination. What would make more sense is to invest in the longer-range A321neo aircraft and open up all of South America from FLL.


First off B6 flies LAX-BOS, with is longer than 2500mi, so is AS SEA-FLL, but anyways.

AA, DL, UA all use widebody aircraft on domestic routes. Especially routes between hubs and with demand. NK could use a larger aircraft on routes where there is demand, ie: FLL to many east coast/mid-atlantic destinations. It all comes down to the economics of the aircraft. That is what NK will be looking at.


He clearly said 2,500 nautical miles, not statute miles...BOS-LAX and FLL-SEA are both below 2,500 nautical miles.

It makes zero economic sense for Spirit to operate a split fleet. There is a lot of fixed cost that goes into an airline once a new fleet type is added. Given Spirit already requires ultra-high utilization to maintain their low cost structure, a new type would only throw further wrinkles into this.
 
rajincajun01
Posts: 701
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2010 2:16 am

Re: Spirit Airlines looking at larger aircraft from Boeing

Tue Aug 27, 2019 4:35 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
rajincajun01 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
AS "inherited" Airbus aircraft after it purchased a competitor; that's very different than it AS had ordered directly from Airbus.

Yes but how many people said something like “they’ll never merge with an airline that is exclusively Airbus”?

AS didn't buy VX for the planes; they bought them to kill the competition. And who knows how long AS will keep the Airbus planes?

You have missed the point completely. :sarcastic:
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dcaproducer
Posts: 195
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Re: Spirit Airlines looking at larger aircraft from Boeing

Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:07 pm

heavymetal wrote:
dcaproducer wrote:
PacoMartin wrote:
I think we should dismiss the 797, as a small airline is unlikely to be thinking about a wide-body which doesn't exist.

Right now the seven narrow-body USA airlines do not fly routes longer than 2500 nm (Alaska Air from Anchorage to KOA on Big Island of Hawaii)
Alaska Airlines Inc.
JetBlue Airways
Southwest Airlines Co.
Spirit Air Lines
Sun Country Airlines d/b/a MN Airlines
Frontier Airlines Inc.
Allegiant Air

United flies from Houston to Sydney and Hawaiian flies from Honolulu to Boston (further than HNL to SYD). Delta flies from Atlanta to Johannesburg and American flies from DFW to Hong Kong. Hawaiian is obviously the only small airline to invest in long-range aircraft.

Spirit already goes to 7 destinations in South America in three countries: Columbia, Ecuador, and Peru.

At first glance, you would think that the B737 MAX with it's considerably longer range would open up huge possibilities. For instance, Gol Transportes Aéreos plans to open up a MAX-8 route on the 3300 nautical miles from Brasilia (17 MAP per year) to Orlando.

But Brasilia is only one airport and it is only accessible from Florida on a MAX. The other airports are São Paulo–Guarulhos (43 MAP), Rio de Janeiro–Galeão (15 MAP), Ministro Pistarini (11 MAP), Arturo Merino Benítez (23 MAP) cannot be reached on the MAX.

I just can't see Spirit investing in a new model to just open up a single major destination. What would make more sense is to invest in the longer-range A321neo aircraft and open up all of South America from FLL.


First off B6 flies LAX-BOS, with is longer than 2500mi, so is AS SEA-FLL, but anyways.

AA, DL, UA all use widebody aircraft on domestic routes. Especially routes between hubs and with demand. NK could use a larger aircraft on routes where there is demand, ie: FLL to many east coast/mid-atlantic destinations. It all comes down to the economics of the aircraft. That is what NK will be looking at.


He clearly said 2,500 nautical miles, not statute miles...BOS-LAX and FLL-SEA are both below 2,500 nautical miles.

It makes zero economic sense for Spirit to operate a split fleet. There is a lot of fixed cost that goes into an airline once a new fleet type is added. Given Spirit already requires ultra-high utilization to maintain their low cost structure, a new type would only throw further wrinkles into this.


I misread his NM vs miles.

In terms of economics, I made no judgement one way or the other. All I said was NK will evaluate the economics of any aircraft. NK will determine if a split fleet works for them and all we can do here is speculate.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1221
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Spirit Airlines looking at larger aircraft from Boeing

Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:56 pm

rajincajun01 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
rajincajun01 wrote:
Yes but how many people said something like “they’ll never merge with an airline that is exclusively Airbus”?

AS didn't buy VX for the planes; they bought them to kill the competition. And who knows how long AS will keep the Airbus planes?

You have missed the point completely. :sarcastic:

Then explain your point. Cause it's clear as mud.
 
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PacoMartin
Posts: 383
Joined: Sun May 27, 2018 8:18 pm

Re: Spirit Airlines looking at larger aircraft from Boeing

Tue Aug 27, 2019 6:04 pm

dcaproducer wrote:
In terms of economics, I made no judgement one way or the other. All I said was NK will evaluate the economics of any aircraft. NK will determine if a split fleet works for them and all we can do here is speculate.


I think forums are about speculation. I drew circles around FLL at 3300nm and 4300nm (which is 400nm less than the A321XLR is being sold at.

The extra 1000 nm brings in dozens of significant airports within the range of FLL. The increase from FLL-LIM (Spirit's longest current flight ) to 3300 nm introduces basically two major airports, brasilia, and possibly VVI (2.4 MAP) the largest airport in Bolivia.



http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=eze%0d%0absb ... 0x540&PM=*
 
rajincajun01
Posts: 701
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2010 2:16 am

Re: Spirit Airlines looking at larger aircraft from Boeing

Tue Aug 27, 2019 6:34 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
rajincajun01 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
AS didn't buy VX for the planes; they bought them to kill the competition. And who knows how long AS will keep the Airbus planes?

You have missed the point completely. :sarcastic:

Then explain your point. Cause it's clear as mud.

Well that’s because you came in and muddied it up.

People are saying Spirit won’t buy Boeing/have anything to do with Boeing.

People said the same thing about Alaska having Airbus in their fleet whether through purchase or merger.

Anything is possible in the industry.

The end.
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Gulfstream500
Topic Author
Posts: 374
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Re: Spirit Airlines looking at larger aircraft from Boeing

Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:27 pm

rajincajun01 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
rajincajun01 wrote:
You have missed the point completely. :sarcastic:

Then explain your point. Cause it's clear as mud.

Well that’s because you came in and muddied it up.

People are saying Spirit won’t buy Boeing/have anything to do with Boeing.

People said the same thing about Alaska having Airbus in their fleet whether through purchase or merger.

Anything is possible in the industry.

The end.


Personally, I think that the MAX would be no good, but a 797 or large aircraft would be. It could operate on high density routes, like EWR-FLL, and ORD-LAS. Additionally, it could justify some additional coast to coast flying (like BOS-LAS) with a lowered crew/fuel cost per passenger.

My verdict, however, is that they will not buy the 797 (unless it’s a narrow body). If they do buy a wide body, it will be an A330.
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