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asuflyer
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Probe launched after oxygen bottles on CX planes found half-empty before flight from YYZ to HKG

Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:21 pm

Upon an inspection, two CX 77W's were found with partially depleted oxygen canister levels. Cathay has said they have began an internal investigation into whether this is a confirmed act of sabotage.

https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/tra ... 1566913724
Last edited by SQ22 on Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
AA737-823
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Re: Probe launched after oxygen bottles on CX planes found half-empty before flight from YVZ to HKG

Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:26 pm

Wow.. slow news day much?!?!
Some oxygen bottles were low.
What's next, a press release for tires that required servicing!?
I guess that would be potential sabotage, too!
 
eamondzhang
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Re: Probe launched after oxygen bottles on CX planes found half-empty before flight from YVZ to HKG

Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:41 am

AA737-823 wrote:
Wow.. slow news day much?!?!
Some oxygen bottles were low.
What's next, a press release for tires that required servicing!?
I guess that would be potential sabotage, too!

The reason this made the news is apparently this IS an act of sabotage by some of the pro-HK independence CX employees - whether it's the ground crew in YYZ or aircrew is another story.

I won't escalate this issue into a political one but the act itself if confirmed is selfish and dangerous to everyone.

There're also a number of CX & KA employees claiming on Facebook that they'll do whatever they can to disrupt the company's operation to support the recent turmoils in HK.

Michael
 
yonahleung
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Re: Probe launched after oxygen bottles on CX planes found half-empty before flight from YVZ to HKG

Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:50 am

I suspect this is sabotage by pro-Chinese ground crew at YYZ. We all know that the Chinese government is bullying CX and it is understandable that some pro-Chinese crew will take it into their own hands to "punish" CX. This is the Chinese modus operandi.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Probe launched after oxygen bottles on CX planes found half-empty before flight from YVZ to HKG

Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:37 am

eamondzhang wrote:
The reason this made the news is apparently this IS an act of sabotage by some of the pro-HK independence CX employees - whether it's the ground crew in YYZ or aircrew is another story.


A bold claim with absolutely no proofs.

Actually, does CX have a crew base in Toronto? It's almost too coincidental that it happened on back to back HKG->YYZ flights.
 
Airontario
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Re: Probe launched after oxygen bottles on CX planes found half-empty before flight from YVZ to HKG

Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:47 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
Actually, does CX have a crew base in Toronto?


They did, I believe it was closed earlier this year.
 
hiflyeras
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Re: Probe launched after oxygen bottles on CX planes found half-empty before flight from YYZ to HKG

Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:04 pm

Intentional sabatoge of safety equipment is outrageous...I hope they can identify the perpetrators but I have a feeling we'll never know.
 
JAAlbert
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Re: Probe launched after oxygen bottles on CX planes found half-empty before flight from YVZ to HKG

Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:47 pm

yonahleung wrote:
I suspect this is sabotage by pro-Chinese ground crew at YYZ. We all know that the Chinese government is bullying CX and it is understandable that some pro-Chinese crew will take it into their own hands to "punish" CX. This is the Chinese modus operandi.


My initial thought as soon as I saw the headline.
 
workhorse
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Re: Probe launched after oxygen bottles on CX planes found half-empty before flight from YVZ to HKG

Wed Aug 28, 2019 5:19 pm

eamondzhang wrote:
The reason this made the news is apparently this IS an act of sabotage by some of the pro-HK independence CX employees


yonahleung wrote:
I suspect this is sabotage by pro-Chinese ground crew at YYZ.


:scratchchin: I think we have a bit of a problem here.

:idea: Maybe the first plane was sabotaged by pro-independence employees (to support HK independence) and the second by anti-independence employees (to protest against independence). :duck:
 
moyangmm
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Re: Probe launched after oxygen bottles on CX planes found half-empty before flight from YVZ to HKG

Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:00 am

zakuivcustom wrote:
eamondzhang wrote:
The reason this made the news is apparently this IS an act of sabotage by some of the pro-HK independence CX employees - whether it's the ground crew in YYZ or aircrew is another story.


A bold claim with absolutely no proofs.



Here is another one:

yonahleung wrote:
I suspect this is sabotage by pro-Chinese ground crew at YYZ. We all know that the Chinese government is bullying CX and it is understandable that some pro-Chinese crew will take it into their own hands to "punish" CX. This is the Chinese modus operandi.
 
eamondzhang
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Re: Probe launched after oxygen bottles on CX planes found half-empty before flight from YVZ to HKG

Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:48 am

moyangmm wrote:


zakuivcustom wrote:

Lol, that's all I can say.

Without turning this into political bashing, tell me if things are developed to a point that CX has to make an explanation, what does that imply to CX's senior management?

Not to mention CX and KA crew has been actively posting on CX/KA secrets calling to sabotage flight ops.

Enough of the story, but things are developed to a point that Hong Kong is becoming the Ukraine of the East, and we all know how things went in Ukraine.

No offence intended for all Ukraine users on A.net.

Michael
 
Antarius
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Re: Probe launched after oxygen bottles on CX planes found half-empty before flight from YVZ to HKG

Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:58 am

eamondzhang wrote:
moyangmm wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:

A bold claim with absolutely no proofs.



Here is another one:

yonahleung wrote:
I suspect this is sabotage by pro-Chinese ground crew at YYZ. We all know that the Chinese government is bullying CX and it is understandable that some pro-Chinese crew will take it into their own hands to "punish" CX. This is the Chinese modus operandi.


zakuivcustom wrote:
eamondzhang wrote:
The reason this made the news is apparently this IS an act of sabotage by some of the pro-HK independence CX employees - whether it's the ground crew in YYZ or aircrew is another story.


A bold claim with absolutely no proofs.

Actually, does CX have a crew base in Toronto? It's almost too coincidental that it happened on back to back HKG->YYZ flights.

Lol, that's all I can say.

Without turning this into political bashing, tell me if things are developed to a point that CX has to make an explanation, what does that imply to CX's senior management?

Not to mention CX and KA crew has been actively posting on CX/KA secrets calling to sabotage flight ops.

Enough of the story, but things are developed to a point that Hong Kong is becoming the Ukraine of the East, and we all know how things went in Ukraine.

No offence intended for all Ukraine users on A.net.

Michael


What is that even supposed to mean? What next, Hong Kong is becoming the Poland of 1939?
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foxtrotbravo21
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Re: Probe launched after oxygen bottles on CX planes found half-empty before flight from YYZ to HKG

Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:01 am

Whatever it is on whether CX crew was involved in such incidents or not, the main thing is that this incdents should Not have happened as it does compromise the safety of passengers and even crew themselves. Any such sabotages on any CX aircrafts should not be condone and any one caught doing so should be punished to the full extend of the law. Safety should never be compromised on an aircraft no matter what the excuses.
 
eamondzhang
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Re: Probe launched after oxygen bottles on CX planes found half-empty before flight from YVZ to HKG

Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:21 am

Antarius wrote:

What is that even supposed to mean? What next, Hong Kong is becoming the Poland of 1939?

Google will be your best friend to see what's going on in Ukraine. Believe or not, things that happened in Ukraine during the Orange Revolution is also happening in Hong Kong, and guess how Ukraine looks like nowadays.

I won't elaborate this in aviation forum further or the moderator will get all over me. But with the current external situation, CX is in hell with or without the incident.

Michael
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: Probe launched after oxygen bottles on CX planes found half-empty before flight from YYZ to HKG

Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:37 am

Sorry but I worked in maintenance and partially discharged bottles are very common.
Flight crews would check the flight crew bottles for serviceability as their pre-flight check and may not close the valves well, resulting in oxygen leaking out slowly.
It could also be a system leak, it is typical for the flight crew oxygen bottles to lose pressure over time.
Maintenance would also inspect them during daily, weekly or A checks, but oxygen is not refilled daily.
The bottles in the cabin are often used by cabin crew for passengers or crews who feel ill, some cabin crew even take frequent sips, at some airlines this is mentionned during cabn crew training. Remember that they are running around at cabin altitudes of 8000ft, so fatigue comes sooner and oxygen brings relief.

The problem is that when they are used by cabin crew for themselves or passengers, they are often just put back without reporting it in the cabin tech logs, and the bottles in the cabin often don't show if they're full or half full, as long as the needle is in the green arc for the residual pressure, it's good as far as maintenance is concerned.

So it could be just poor procedures at CX, it doesn't make sense to empty them by half for sabotage, and only a few per airplane too.
There are much easier and painful ways to sabotage, I'm not going to give examples but cabin crew and maintenance would know.
 
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BirdBrain
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Re: Probe launched after oxygen bottles on CX planes found half-empty before flight from YYZ to HKG

Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:55 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
Sorry but I worked in maintenance and partially discharged bottles are very common.


Thanks Waterbomber2. Your response helps provide perspective.
 
Ellofiend
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Re: Probe launched after oxygen bottles on CX planes found half-empty before flight from YYZ to HKG

Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:17 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
Sorry but I worked in maintenance and partially discharged bottles are very common.
Flight crews would check the flight crew bottles for serviceability as their pre-flight check and may not close the valves well, resulting in oxygen leaking out slowly.
It could also be a system leak, it is typical for the flight crew oxygen bottles to lose pressure over time.
Maintenance would also inspect them during daily, weekly or A checks, but oxygen is not refilled daily.
The bottles in the cabin are often used by cabin crew for passengers or crews who feel ill, some cabin crew even take frequent sips, at some airlines this is mentionned during cabn crew training. Remember that they are running around at cabin altitudes of 8000ft, so fatigue comes sooner and oxygen brings relief.

The problem is that when they are used by cabin crew for themselves or passengers, they are often just put back without reporting it in the cabin tech logs, and the bottles in the cabin often don't show if they're full or half full, as long as the needle is in the green arc for the residual pressure, it's good as far as maintenance is concerned.

So it could be just poor procedures at CX, it doesn't make sense to empty them by half for sabotage, and only a few per airplane too.
There are much easier and painful ways to sabotage, I'm not going to give examples but cabin crew and maintenance would know.


Thanks, providing valued insight - was wondering what visible harm half-emptying some o2 bags would do, not exactly the actions of a protestor! As you say, there are certainly some more visible methods of protest...
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Probe launched after oxygen bottles on CX planes found half-empty before flight from YYZ to HKG

Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:12 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
Sorry but I worked in maintenance and partially discharged bottles are very common.
Flight crews would check the flight crew bottles for serviceability as their pre-flight check and may not close the valves well, resulting in oxygen leaking out slowly.
It could also be a system leak, it is typical for the flight crew oxygen bottles to lose pressure over time.
Maintenance would also inspect them during daily, weekly or A checks, but oxygen is not refilled daily.
The bottles in the cabin are often used by cabin crew for passengers or crews who feel ill, some cabin crew even take frequent sips, at some airlines this is mentionned during cabn crew training. Remember that they are running around at cabin altitudes of 8000ft, so fatigue comes sooner and oxygen brings relief.

The problem is that when they are used by cabin crew for themselves or passengers, they are often just put back without reporting it in the cabin tech logs, and the bottles in the cabin often don't show if they're full or half full, as long as the needle is in the green arc for the residual pressure, it's good as far as maintenance is concerned.

So it could be just poor procedures at CX, it doesn't make sense to empty them by half for sabotage, and only a few per airplane too.
There are much easier and painful ways to sabotage, I'm not going to give examples but cabin crew and maintenance would know.


I definitely appreciate your insight. Perspective from people knowing what they're talking about is definitely sorely missing nowaday, and definitely missing on a.net.

For me, let CX probe the "incidents". If there's "sabotage", then go ahead and take labor action against the person responsible. Jumping to conclusion with zero evidences is NOT appreciated, especially in an aviation forum where people seriously should know better than your average joe.
 
BAeRJ100
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Re: Probe launched after oxygen bottles on CX planes found half-empty before flight from YYZ to HKG

Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:27 pm

Ellofiend wrote:
Thanks, providing valued insight - was wondering what visible harm half-emptying some o2 bags would do, not exactly the actions of a protestor! As you say, there are certainly some more visible methods of protest...


The harm comes when the crew need to access the oxygen for medical/therapeutic needs only to find there isn't an adequate amount.

There is also the fact that the portable oxygen bottles located in the cabin are required to be pre-flight checked, and must meet a minimum standard in regards to pressure/amount of O2 present. If this is a case of "crew using it during flight and re-stowing it without reporting", then it falls onto the next set of crew to check whether the bottles are filled above the minimum requirement.
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Blimpie
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Re: Probe launched after oxygen bottles on CX planes found half-empty before flight from YYZ to HKG

Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:59 pm

Well... if it's a little leakage as suggested, that's one ting; if it's half the tanks, that's a little different, and should be looked at appropriately.

I can also see both sides involved if this was a case of sabotage as well; however, if this is a case of HK separatists, I'm sure they will get grilled and hung out to dry. If this is the work of the Chinese government, I'm sure they will have a way to spin it back to being pro-HK activists, so it's win-win for PRC.

Regardless, I am very doubtful that the actual truth will ever be known.
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workhorse
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Re: Probe launched after oxygen bottles on CX planes found half-empty before flight from YYZ to HKG

Sat Aug 31, 2019 2:44 pm

Blimpie wrote:
I can also see both sides involved if this was a case of sabotage as well


You've got a problem when your act of terror / sabotage can be interpreted both in your favor and the adverse camp's.

Hey, after all, maybe they did it together?! I can imagine it:

"Hi guys, we want to sabotage CX's planes to fight against Chinese occupation of Hong Kong and you want to sabotage CX's planes to fight against Hong Kong separatism, so let's just team up, it will be more efficient that way!"

Because, as everyone knows, CX flights being late will be a tremendous help for Hong Kong's independence... no, wait, it will be a tremendous help for the affirmation of China's sovereignty over Hong Kong... no, wait... whatever...
 
dopplerd
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Re: Probe launched after oxygen bottles on CX planes found half-empty before flight from YYZ to HKG

Sat Aug 31, 2019 8:19 pm

Wow. These protesters have some reach. They are getting access to 20% of the airplane's crew O2 that I work on causing a low reading. And I work for a US domestics carrier! They are probably behind the bald tires, worn brakes and rouge suicidal birds that I have to deal with as well. This is a serious threat.
 
lutfi
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Re: Probe launched after oxygen bottles on CX planes found half-empty before flight from YVZ to HKG

Sat Aug 31, 2019 11:50 pm

eamondzhang wrote:
Antarius wrote:

What is that even supposed to mean? What next, Hong Kong is becoming the Poland of 1939?

Google will be your best friend to see what's going on in Ukraine. Believe or not, things that happened in Ukraine during the Orange Revolution is also happening in Hong Kong, and guess how Ukraine looks like nowadays.

I won't elaborate this in aviation forum further or the moderator will get all over me. But with the current external situation, CX is in hell with or without the incident.

Michael


I was in Kiev recently. Ukraine looks fine, and has democratic elections. Sure, Russia occupies part of the country.
 
eamondzhang
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Re: Probe launched after oxygen bottles on CX planes found half-empty before flight from YVZ to HKG

Sun Sep 01, 2019 12:38 am

lutfi wrote:

I was in Kiev recently. Ukraine looks fine, and has democratic elections. Sure, Russia occupies part of the country.

Nothing to do with politics. I'm talking about its currency, GDP (although picking up a bit but overall still is what, half of what it was 10 years ago?) and a decline in polulation.

On the topic, there's another incident reported where B-LBI (Cathay Dragon A333) also has a bottle of oxygen discharged.:

Looks like someone posted it before I do...

Michael
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Probe launched after oxygen bottles on CX planes found half-empty before flight from YYZ to HKG

Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:21 pm

https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/pol ... ghts-found

The two crews (for the YYZ flights) are suspended for now, although mainly just for investigation purpose.

They're looking at all angles, including ground crew, engineers, catering, etc.
 
celestar
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Re: Probe launched after oxygen bottles on CX planes found half-empty before flight from YYZ to HKG

Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:59 am

This is a serious incident.
My thoughts is, someone wants to deliver a message to CX
Unfortunately, such means is not a good one.
Depleting oxygen tank can be potentially a dangerous way of harming the crew during emergency and therefore, the motivation for such behavior by the crew is less likely unless it is the crew that is departing from their flight mission at destination.
One could say this is harmful to your fellow colleagues but the core logic is no one would do anything to harm his or her own way while doing an evil thing. The chances of ground crew and other airport personnel in my opinion, is highly unlikely.
 
APYu
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Re: Probe launched after oxygen bottles on CX planes found half-empty before flight from YYZ to HKG

Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:08 am

Crew probably had some to help with hangovers. Its a pretty frequent occurrence.
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