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STT757
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Re: United p.s. Question

Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:45 pm

SFO-EWR on United is the most profitable route in the US:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/dominicdud ... 50b5696963



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tphuang
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Re: United p.s. Question

Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:57 pm

highest revenue and most profitable are not necessarily the same thing.
 
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STT757
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Re: United p.s. Question

Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:20 pm

tphuang wrote:
highest revenue and most profitable are not necessarily the same thing.


Unless your competition is a ULCC having the highest revenues most likely goes with the most profits.


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RvA
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Re: United p.s. Question

Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:28 pm

What is the definition of most profitable in this case? Highest absolute profit or highest margin?
 
dmstorm22
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Re: United p.s. Question

Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:16 pm

RvA wrote:
What is the definition of most profitable in this case? Highest absolute profit or highest margin?


Absolute profit almost assuredly.

Highest margin is probably a series of 'Podunk Town' -> 'Major Hub' on the US3.
 
codc10
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Re: United p.s. Question

Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:32 pm

STT757 wrote:
SFO-EWR on United is the most profitable route in the US:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/dominicdud ... 50b5696963



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


Even still, I would expect United to be generating even more revenue on EWR-SFO, as it's not that far apart from AA JFK-LAX, but UA has a lot more capacity and larger gauge.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: United p.s. Question

Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:56 pm

jayunited wrote:
tphuang wrote:
keep in mind on EWR-LAX, UA gets lower yield than DL does on JFK-LAX. And they use similarly configured premium sections. For all the talk about cutting back to EWR being worth it, they certainly aren't capturing the highest yielding clients on NYC-LAX market anymore.


UA had been loosing those high yielding NYC clients for years at JFK. UA's slow demise at JFK happened well before the final decision came to close JFK. One of the reasons UA launched p.s. was retirement of the 762s but also to try and stop the bleeding. They had hoped p.s. would keep those high yielding clients, but many of them had left or were leaving for AA whose service back then at JFK was better than UA. You can't isolate out one route you have to look at the entire operation to see the whole picture. Like I stated earlier UA couldn't even make money on JFK-LHR. That route no matter what airline has always been a high yield route because of corporate accounts. Most of that corporate travel took place either in first or business class and yet UA couldn't make money on the route because we had lost so many NYC corporate accounts. When I started working for UA JFK-LAX was around 10-12 nonstop a day when JFK closed the route was down to only 6 nonstop a day with little to no corporate accounts and an abysmal load factor and SFO wasn't any better only 7 nonstop a day. AA had been kicking our as* on these routes for years.

We all focus on Kirby saying leaving JFK was a mistake but there was something else Kirby said when he first made that announcement at a town hall and it was AA benefited greatly from UA's slide at JFK. AA at JFK is now repeating the same mistakes UA made and UA's slide at JFK began just prior to filing bankruptcy. While AA was the initial beneficiary of UA's slide, they didn't capitalize on UA's ultimate demise at JFK, DL and B6 gained the most from UA's departure. And now we see AA making some of the same mistakes UA made at JFK and who is capitalizing DL.

Looking at UA's history at JFK our operation began tanking in mid 2001. Its started out slow but continued to gain speed as UA accelerated towards bankruptcy. UA absolutely gutted JFK in bankruptcy and never had a plan on how to make JFK profitable again. The slide to UA's ultimate demise at JFK continued all the way until Smisek pulled the plug. I'm not giving Smisek a free pass but there is a lot of blame to go around, a lot of people are responsible for UA leaving JFK after 65 years of continuous service. It was death by 1,000 cuts spread out over many years, looking at UA slow death it could almost qualify as torture, hypothetically speaking of course.

A token presence at JFK will not help UA which is why I suspect Kirby hasn't made a push to get back into JFK even though slots are available in the morning and evening. If UA were to go back to JFK it would have to be with force meaning a nothing less than a major line station or a focus hub.


There is also no real optimal space for UA at JFK, even with a token presence. T1 is bursting at the seams and ripping apart so much, it will be torn down in a few years. T2 is obviously out of the question, and T4 also not suited for UA. T5 is out. The old T7 space UA used is now Alaska's and other carriers and T7 is also slated for closure in 2021. That leaves Terminal 8. AA is in a lousy situation at the moment and they keep cutting JFK, but I do not see AA having UA co-locate at JFK with a competing product in a terminal that AA owns. If UA wants back in, I could see AS moving to T8 (it has some interline with AA) and UA would take back what it left until the T7 replacement is complete. Buena Suerte!
 
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Re: United p.s. Question

Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:04 pm

EWR - SFO/LAX is often flown by 757-200s (PMUA and PMCO), 777-200/ERs (PMCO, PMUA, UA Domestic, and Polaris), 777-300ERs, 787-10s, and the occasional 767-300/400. BOS - SFO/LAX is most often flown by 757-200s (PMUA and PMCO) and 777-200s in the UA Domestic configuration. I don’t believe that they fly PMCO and Polaris 777s to Boston, but I may very well be wrong, if so someone please correct me :)

Last flown aircraft: DH8D OE-LGO < A320 HA-LWC < A320 HA-LWV < A320 SX-DVT < A320 SX-DVK < B733 LZ-BVU < E190 LZ-SOF < A320 D-AIUQ < DH8D OE-LGJ < A321 D-AIRN < A319 LZ-FBB < DH8D OE-LGO < B772 OE-LPC < A346 D-AIHX
 
tphuang
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Re: United p.s. Question

Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:13 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
jayunited wrote:
tphuang wrote:
keep in mind on EWR-LAX, UA gets lower yield than DL does on JFK-LAX. And they use similarly configured premium sections. For all the talk about cutting back to EWR being worth it, they certainly aren't capturing the highest yielding clients on NYC-LAX market anymore.


UA had been loosing those high yielding NYC clients for years at JFK. UA's slow demise at JFK happened well before the final decision came to close JFK. One of the reasons UA launched p.s. was retirement of the 762s but also to try and stop the bleeding. They had hoped p.s. would keep those high yielding clients, but many of them had left or were leaving for AA whose service back then at JFK was better than UA. You can't isolate out one route you have to look at the entire operation to see the whole picture. Like I stated earlier UA couldn't even make money on JFK-LHR. That route no matter what airline has always been a high yield route because of corporate accounts. Most of that corporate travel took place either in first or business class and yet UA couldn't make money on the route because we had lost so many NYC corporate accounts. When I started working for UA JFK-LAX was around 10-12 nonstop a day when JFK closed the route was down to only 6 nonstop a day with little to no corporate accounts and an abysmal load factor and SFO wasn't any better only 7 nonstop a day. AA had been kicking our as* on these routes for years.

We all focus on Kirby saying leaving JFK was a mistake but there was something else Kirby said when he first made that announcement at a town hall and it was AA benefited greatly from UA's slide at JFK. AA at JFK is now repeating the same mistakes UA made and UA's slide at JFK began just prior to filing bankruptcy. While AA was the initial beneficiary of UA's slide, they didn't capitalize on UA's ultimate demise at JFK, DL and B6 gained the most from UA's departure. And now we see AA making some of the same mistakes UA made at JFK and who is capitalizing DL.

Looking at UA's history at JFK our operation began tanking in mid 2001. Its started out slow but continued to gain speed as UA accelerated towards bankruptcy. UA absolutely gutted JFK in bankruptcy and never had a plan on how to make JFK profitable again. The slide to UA's ultimate demise at JFK continued all the way until Smisek pulled the plug. I'm not giving Smisek a free pass but there is a lot of blame to go around, a lot of people are responsible for UA leaving JFK after 65 years of continuous service. It was death by 1,000 cuts spread out over many years, looking at UA slow death it could almost qualify as torture, hypothetically speaking of course.

A token presence at JFK will not help UA which is why I suspect Kirby hasn't made a push to get back into JFK even though slots are available in the morning and evening. If UA were to go back to JFK it would have to be with force meaning a nothing less than a major line station or a focus hub.


There is also no real optimal space for UA at JFK, even with a token presence. T1 is bursting at the seams and ripping apart so much, it will be torn down in a few years. T2 is obviously out of the question, and T4 also not suited for UA. T5 is out. The old T7 space UA used is now Alaska's and other carriers and T7 is also slated for closure in 2021. That leaves Terminal 8. AA is in a lousy situation at the moment and they keep cutting JFK, but I do not see AA having UA co-locate at JFK with a competing product in a terminal that AA owns. If UA wants back in, I could see AS moving to T8 (it has some interline with AA) and UA would take back what it left until the T7 replacement is complete. Buena Suerte!


I actually wasn't saying they need to go back to JFK, but simply having EWR all to themselves with a premium product like polaris on some flights haven't allowed them to catch up to DL in yield out of JFK-LAX. SFO is a little different given UA's dominance there. But at a more neutral airport like LAX, UA has certainly lost out on this important market.

As for where they could move to in JFK. I think at this point, AA will be quite willing to trade a few slots. And I'm sure JetBlue will gladly provide space for UA at their new north terminal as long as UA is willing to shell out money.
 
jayunited
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Re: United p.s. Question

Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:53 pm

tphuang wrote:
I actually wasn't saying they need to go back to JFK, but simply having EWR all to themselves with a premium product like polaris on some flights haven't allowed them to catch up to DL in yield out of JFK-LAX. SFO is a little different given UA's dominance there. But at a more neutral airport like LAX, UA has certainly lost out on this important market.

As for where they could move to in JFK. I think at this point, AA will be quite willing to trade a few slots. And I'm sure JetBlue will gladly provide space for UA at their new north terminal as long as UA is willing to shell out money.


I think you are correct I think we need to accept the reality of the situation find ourselves in, and looking at the OAG report on most profitable routes I have to give credit to DL as well. They may have arrive late to the JFK-LAX-JFK party but they are making all the right moves and the data supports this. Although DL's JFK-LAX routes is not as profitable as AA's or UA's EWR-LAX. Out of the US3 DL's JFK-LAX was the only route that saw an increase in revenue year over year. I wouldn't be surprised come next year if DL overtakes UA in total revenue on the all important NYC-LAX route.
When combined with AA recent announcement of a slight reduction in the total number of round trips on their JFK-LAX route(I believe that A321 is going to MIA) DL is poise to take over. It may take them 2-4 years to top AA in total revenue on this route but DL on this route has come a long way in a very short period of time. I hope AA at JFK does not make the same mistakes UA did at JFK, if they do DL will make them pay dearly just like AA made UA pay for our mistakes.
 
N649DL
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Re: United p.s. Question

Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:42 am

VC10er wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
VC10er wrote:
At the time of launch of the special 752 subfleet ps, 3 class - it was a great innovative step up from old “762 ‘n Things” that preceded ps.
I flew those transcons fairly often and bounced around between AA, UA even TWA L-1011s. I don’t recall what Delta was doing, or if PanAm connected JFK to SFO/LAX with special service? However those transcontinental flights always had “something” a bit special as they were long domestic flights across the USA. (I recall the ENORMOUS difference between Biz and First back then on a UA 762. Business was indeed better than economy, yet far less glam than First. (Once I was returning from SFO to JFK, in Biz, which was fuller in the front of the business cabin - I was sitting towards the back left of the cabin which was much emptier for some unexplainable reason, yet passengers were still boarding and I was praying the empty aisle seat next to me would remain empty. Then someone a bit famous entered Biz left aisle on the right side. The somewhat famous person was Ann Coulter! I detest Ann Coulter and I was absolutely terrified she’d sit next to me! My heart started pounding because she started starring at me intensely. “Please God NO, please!” Those seats were just slightly bigger than coach seats, but with a bit more recline and a footrest. Fortunately she found her seat: my row but opposite window- however still she shamelessly kept starring at me? Maybe she thought I was cute? I was much younger. That story is 1 reason I love seats like Polaris!
But back then nobody ever even could foresee bed seats. Nothing even close to a bed seat had yet appeared even internationally.
So, back to ps, seeing international business lounge chairs in leather, Singapore Biz seats in First was a WOW moment! When completed, ps really was industry leading, w personal tape players, Westin duvets and beautiful new interiors. It did, for a little while, feel very special.

Today is a hodgepodge of aircraft from EWR. I will always find and book the 78X. I don’t think hodgepodges are good for a brand in anyway. While UA is rocking it elsewhere, one day, (IF) they want to truly OWN transcon, I’d recommend the following:
- Be as constant as possible (at least all EWR-SFO/LAX) with a great Polaris “inspired” design and atmosphere
- Become truly COSAST TO COAST, and add IAD, BOS, MIA perhaps with 737MAX-10 w new flatbed First
- Update and add new additional UC’s (EWR!!!)
- Behind First add 2/3 rows of Premium Economy (either the new purple or new domestic F seat
- SUB BRAND IT WITH A GREAT “EVOCATIVE” NAME (by “evocative” I mean a name that evokes premium coast to cost. Not a name that requires an explanation, Ex: NOT something like Avilon or something that says nothing, but something like, (example only) “UNITED C2C Services”

IMHO!!! R


United launched "ps" in 2004 when it was already in Bankruptcy. The 762 fleet at UA was being rapidly phased out (these were among the oldest 762s flying around at the time and part of UA's fleet rationalization post 9/11 and while in Chapter 11). At the time, AA was flying 762s in a 3 class cabin layout and was the market leader. DL was nowhere near as dominant at JFK then as it is now. The DL ramp up at JFK began in earnest after it exited Chapter 11 and the merger with NW was underway though the investments in JFK were already being made. In 2004 Delta was operating out of the combined Pan Am Worldport (Terminal 3) and the adjacent Terminal 2. "ps" was launched with a lot of publicity, advertising, and a focus on the supposed premium experience in United First and United Business. The economy class cabin was all Economy Plus until around 2011-2012, when Smisek increased the density on the UA ps fleet, had the original First and Business Class cabins replaced with the CO Business First seat and product. The original Business Class on the UA 757 assigned to ps featured seats from Lufthansa. They were wide, leather, heavily padded, and brown. The best row on that plane was Row 9. There was unlimited legroom due to the positioning of the Emergency Exit in front.

UA ps featured 7 daily nonstops from JFK to SFO and 6 daily nonstops to LAX. Before UA closed JFK, the operation was based out of Terminal 7 and featured a huge United Club which had been virtually unchanged since the days of UA's TPAC and LHR service at JFK. Today, that club is the Alaska Airlines lounge, I believe.


THANKS and interesting! I’M ACTUALLY SHOCKED! Because had you asked me what year those special 752s with 3 classes, I wouldn’t have remembered! I cannot remember dates or numbers!
But I do have photographic memory! And recall every detail of everything.

“IF” you were flying First on ps (or 1k) you could use the First Class section of the Red Carpet Club at JFK, glass doors to the left of reception (guarded by 2 very large porcelain Chinese dogs) The First Class lounge was slightly redecorated (or enhanced) to coincide with the launch of ps. United’s parter hotel was Westin* (don’t know the extent of that Westin partnership, might have been limited to ps) because the pillows and duvets aboard were supplied by Westin. UA had created a zen-like peace and quiet space ala Westin in the First Class lounge- did you ever see it? It was a bit schizophrenic in design terms: the UA First Class lounge was very traditional; wing back chairs with floral upholstery, silk flower arrangements in fanciful brass pots, a lot of dark wood, and faux Ming vases, etc. (I saw many celebrities in there over the years!)

What UA added was, if you walked behind the back side wall, a renovated section was revealed: the back of the separator wall were about 100 square nooks, each nook had 1 flickering electric candle in each. The middle of the wall had a large flatscreen TV that looped a video of calming images, (a stream in the woods, ocean waves, blowing palm trees and turquoise waters, etc etc) All modern and square lined furnishings, chairs and 1 chaise lounge/daybed w a bizarre sunlamp over the daybed and a large modern coffee table with a succulent arrangement in the middle with black river stones. (Real succulents look like plastic, these were plastic) - all taupe leather (pre-merger UA had a small love affair with taupe for many years): this new space was meant to soothe the nerves of stressed biz people, preflight and offered water infused with Asian spices. I believe a similar one existed at SFO’s large RCC with the rotunda, in the back were there were many (often unused) wooden business cubbies.
I can see it all in my head right now as if I were there last night!
My mind is BLOWN because if that it was 2004, that means I was flying UA virtually exclusively since October 1991, 13 years doing 175k to 250k “BIS” United miles a year! I only remember that time/date because that was a very BIG year for me. I had turned 30, and started working at Landor October 1991. It was a lot of flying, and since Landor HQ was in SF, I was very often in First Class on UA transcons. Either using paper regional upgrades, or comped-up.
So from 1991 to 2004 weren’t all UA transcon flights operated by 762’s? How old could they have been? Not that old, maybe 10 years old in 1991???
I do recall being surprised that the smaller, single aisle 752 had the range. (I knew far less about aviation at 30, no internet yet, no a.net- but always loved flying and airplanes.
One correction: the 2004 752 ps First Class seats were angled flats in dark blue, and were from Singapore Business. I don’t know if UA took them used from Singapore or just bought the same seat in same color. I knew it because I’d often fly a Singapore 747 in J from JFK to Frankfurt. They were NOT comfortable! They looked really nice upon boarding, but when fully flat (but angled) there was a rock hard bump that spanned the seat width and placed right at your lower back/hips which made side sleeping actually painful.
And you are spot on! Row 9 of business was the BEST, 10ft if open space in front of you, and those international recliners UA had were SO comfortable. Except for being leather, the recline on the ps 752 did not go back nearly as far as their international, grey cloth counterparts. On international Biz, those recliners went back “almost” flat! (Which also meant that on a long flight the guy in front of you, his comb-over-dandruffed head was only 2 ft in front of your eyes and hovering almost over your dinner table!

I do remember when those 3 class ps 752’s were reconfigured to the 2 class Diamond seat. In one way they were much better as they were real BED seats. But the “stylishness” of the original ps was gone. AA I believe upped their game and took all the celebrities in LA away from UA with a much more Private First Class, and moving to EWR almost made transcon just another domestic flight, but with Diamond seats. Smisek made ZERO attempt to make those transcons special.

It would be really awesome to see UA do something innovative and take back the unique and premium brand perception!


I upgraded on the old 3-class configuration using cash on PS in 2010, 2011, and 2-class on miles in 2013 respectively. In 2010 (a few days before NYE) the flight was packed, 2011 it was lighter in J class. Amazing J-class seating with an insane amount of legroom in row 10-11 in the exit row. Digi-players were handed out in 2010 and 2011 but were updated a lot in the 2011 version and club access was comped. The 2013 new configuration was also good but the foot space in J (Legacy CO seating) was horrible and I'm 6'0". Economy got the best upgrade with AVOD and throughout and the option to purchase economy once again. Service in J-Class wasn't all that great with rather checked out LAX or JFK-based F/A's but I didn't really care as I was glad I wasn't stuck in the back.

Smisek-Run UAL was hellbent on making PS a legacy Continental "BusinessFirst" 2-Class route which then eroded Entertainment Contracts (like SAG) to AA which required 3-Class service. This was probably the nail in the coffin for the JFK ops when you really think about it.

I'm a diehard DL loyalist for the most part but other than a comped upgrade to J over Thanksgiving last year on a 764ER (ticket adjusted for free because I got a spider bite in L.A. and had to go to urgent care the night before) the service, seating and food on JFK-LAX-JFK hasn't been all that great compared to even some other domestic F-Class routes. This is one route that I really haven't been terribly impressed with Delta on at all and it seems like AA in F would be leaps and bounds above it these days.
Last edited by N649DL on Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Re: United p.s. Question

Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:44 am

The most logical path for UA back into JFK is to do a deal with AA for some slots and a couple of gates. That will almost certainly never happen, however, as AA would not do a deal that adds a strong competitor on JFK-LAX/SFO which, along with JFK-LHR, are really the routes that keep AA hanging on at JFK.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
Cointrin330
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Re: United p.s. Question

Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:56 am

N649DL wrote:
VC10er wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:

United launched "ps" in 2004 when it was already in Bankruptcy. The 762 fleet at UA was being rapidly phased out (these were among the oldest 762s flying around at the time and part of UA's fleet rationalization post 9/11 and while in Chapter 11). At the time, AA was flying 762s in a 3 class cabin layout and was the market leader. DL was nowhere near as dominant at JFK then as it is now. The DL ramp up at JFK began in earnest after it exited Chapter 11 and the merger with NW was underway though the investments in JFK were already being made. In 2004 Delta was operating out of the combined Pan Am Worldport (Terminal 3) and the adjacent Terminal 2. "ps" was launched with a lot of publicity, advertising, and a focus on the supposed premium experience in United First and United Business. The economy class cabin was all Economy Plus until around 2011-2012, when Smisek increased the density on the UA ps fleet, had the original First and Business Class cabins replaced with the CO Business First seat and product. The original Business Class on the UA 757 assigned to ps featured seats from Lufthansa. They were wide, leather, heavily padded, and brown. The best row on that plane was Row 9. There was unlimited legroom due to the positioning of the Emergency Exit in front.

UA ps featured 7 daily nonstops from JFK to SFO and 6 daily nonstops to LAX. Before UA closed JFK, the operation was based out of Terminal 7 and featured a huge United Club which had been virtually unchanged since the days of UA's TPAC and LHR service at JFK. Today, that club is the Alaska Airlines lounge, I believe.


THANKS and interesting! I’M ACTUALLY SHOCKED! Because had you asked me what year those special 752s with 3 classes, I wouldn’t have remembered! I cannot remember dates or numbers!
But I do have photographic memory! And recall every detail of everything.

“IF” you were flying First on ps (or 1k) you could use the First Class section of the Red Carpet Club at JFK, glass doors to the left of reception (guarded by 2 very large porcelain Chinese dogs) The First Class lounge was slightly redecorated (or enhanced) to coincide with the launch of ps. United’s parter hotel was Westin* (don’t know the extent of that Westin partnership, might have been limited to ps) because the pillows and duvets aboard were supplied by Westin. UA had created a zen-like peace and quiet space ala Westin in the First Class lounge- did you ever see it? It was a bit schizophrenic in design terms: the UA First Class lounge was very traditional; wing back chairs with floral upholstery, silk flower arrangements in fanciful brass pots, a lot of dark wood, and faux Ming vases, etc. (I saw many celebrities in there over the years!)

What UA added was, if you walked behind the back side wall, a renovated section was revealed: the back of the separator wall were about 100 square nooks, each nook had 1 flickering electric candle in each. The middle of the wall had a large flatscreen TV that looped a video of calming images, (a stream in the woods, ocean waves, blowing palm trees and turquoise waters, etc etc) All modern and square lined furnishings, chairs and 1 chaise lounge/daybed w a bizarre sunlamp over the daybed and a large modern coffee table with a succulent arrangement in the middle with black river stones. (Real succulents look like plastic, these were plastic) - all taupe leather (pre-merger UA had a small love affair with taupe for many years): this new space was meant to soothe the nerves of stressed biz people, preflight and offered water infused with Asian spices. I believe a similar one existed at SFO’s large RCC with the rotunda, in the back were there were many (often unused) wooden business cubbies.
I can see it all in my head right now as if I were there last night!
My mind is BLOWN because if that it was 2004, that means I was flying UA virtually exclusively since October 1991, 13 years doing 175k to 250k “BIS” United miles a year! I only remember that time/date because that was a very BIG year for me. I had turned 30, and started working at Landor October 1991. It was a lot of flying, and since Landor HQ was in SF, I was very often in First Class on UA transcons. Either using paper regional upgrades, or comped-up.
So from 1991 to 2004 weren’t all UA transcon flights operated by 762’s? How old could they have been? Not that old, maybe 10 years old in 1991???
I do recall being surprised that the smaller, single aisle 752 had the range. (I knew far less about aviation at 30, no internet yet, no a.net- but always loved flying and airplanes.
One correction: the 2004 752 ps First Class seats were angled flats in dark blue, and were from Singapore Business. I don’t know if UA took them used from Singapore or just bought the same seat in same color. I knew it because I’d often fly a Singapore 747 in J from JFK to Frankfurt. They were NOT comfortable! They looked really nice upon boarding, but when fully flat (but angled) there was a rock hard bump that spanned the seat width and placed right at your lower back/hips which made side sleeping actually painful.
And you are spot on! Row 9 of business was the BEST, 10ft if open space in front of you, and those international recliners UA had were SO comfortable. Except for being leather, the recline on the ps 752 did not go back nearly as far as their international, grey cloth counterparts. On international Biz, those recliners went back “almost” flat! (Which also meant that on a long flight the guy in front of you, his comb-over-dandruffed head was only 2 ft in front of your eyes and hovering almost over your dinner table!

I do remember when those 3 class ps 752’s were reconfigured to the 2 class Diamond seat. In one way they were much better as they were real BED seats. But the “stylishness” of the original ps was gone. AA I believe upped their game and took all the celebrities in LA away from UA with a much more Private First Class, and moving to EWR almost made transcon just another domestic flight, but with Diamond seats. Smisek made ZERO attempt to make those transcons special.

It would be really awesome to see UA do something innovative and take back the unique and premium brand perception!


I upgraded on the old 3-class configuration using cash on PS in 2010, 2011, and 2-class on miles in 2013 respectively. In 2010 (a few days before NYE) the flight was packed, 2011 it was lighter in J class. Amazing J-class seating with an insane amount of legroom in row 10-11 in the exit row. Digi-players were handed out in 2010 and 2011 but were updated a lot in the 2011 version and club access was comped. The 2013 new configuration was also good but the foot space in J (Legacy CO seating) was horrible and I'm 6'0". Economy got the best upgrade with AVOD and throughout and the option to purchase economy once again. Service in J-Class wasn't all that great with rather checked out LAX or JFK-based F/A's but I didn't really care as I was glad I wasn't stuck in the back.

Smisek-Run UAL was hellbent on making PS a legacy Continental "BusinessFirst" 2-Class route which then eroded Entertainment Contracts (like SAG) to AA which required 3-Class service. This was probably the nail in the coffin for the JFK ops when you really think about it.

I'm a diehard DL loyalist for the most part but other than a comped upgrade to J over Thanksgiving last year on a 764ER (ticket adjusted for free because I got a spider bite in L.A. and had to go to urgent care the night before) the service, seating and food on JFK-LAX-JFK hasn't been all that great compared to even some other domestic F-Class routes. This is one route that I really haven't been terribly impressed with Delta on at all and it seems like AA in F would be leaps and bounds above it these days.


Delta's transcon service is much ado about nothing. They have upped the frequencies, yes and are the only airline operating JFK to LAX/SFO/SEA with wide body jets thrown in, which has some benefits, particularly in Economy but also in the premium cabin as these are internationally equipped jets, but I've found the service, food, and steeplechase that is T4 less than memorable and would happily continue to use AA, the A321T, and the conveniences of a massive terminal (and a relatively quiet one) and a premium lounge (Flagship) that the JFK SkyClub cannot hold a candle to and feels a lot less like the lobby of a Marriott at even quiet times during the day.
 
N649DL
Posts: 582
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:21 pm

Re: United p.s. Question

Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:02 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
N649DL wrote:
VC10er wrote:

THANKS and interesting! I’M ACTUALLY SHOCKED! Because had you asked me what year those special 752s with 3 classes, I wouldn’t have remembered! I cannot remember dates or numbers!
But I do have photographic memory! And recall every detail of everything.

“IF” you were flying First on ps (or 1k) you could use the First Class section of the Red Carpet Club at JFK, glass doors to the left of reception (guarded by 2 very large porcelain Chinese dogs) The First Class lounge was slightly redecorated (or enhanced) to coincide with the launch of ps. United’s parter hotel was Westin* (don’t know the extent of that Westin partnership, might have been limited to ps) because the pillows and duvets aboard were supplied by Westin. UA had created a zen-like peace and quiet space ala Westin in the First Class lounge- did you ever see it? It was a bit schizophrenic in design terms: the UA First Class lounge was very traditional; wing back chairs with floral upholstery, silk flower arrangements in fanciful brass pots, a lot of dark wood, and faux Ming vases, etc. (I saw many celebrities in there over the years!)

What UA added was, if you walked behind the back side wall, a renovated section was revealed: the back of the separator wall were about 100 square nooks, each nook had 1 flickering electric candle in each. The middle of the wall had a large flatscreen TV that looped a video of calming images, (a stream in the woods, ocean waves, blowing palm trees and turquoise waters, etc etc) All modern and square lined furnishings, chairs and 1 chaise lounge/daybed w a bizarre sunlamp over the daybed and a large modern coffee table with a succulent arrangement in the middle with black river stones. (Real succulents look like plastic, these were plastic) - all taupe leather (pre-merger UA had a small love affair with taupe for many years): this new space was meant to soothe the nerves of stressed biz people, preflight and offered water infused with Asian spices. I believe a similar one existed at SFO’s large RCC with the rotunda, in the back were there were many (often unused) wooden business cubbies.
I can see it all in my head right now as if I were there last night!
My mind is BLOWN because if that it was 2004, that means I was flying UA virtually exclusively since October 1991, 13 years doing 175k to 250k “BIS” United miles a year! I only remember that time/date because that was a very BIG year for me. I had turned 30, and started working at Landor October 1991. It was a lot of flying, and since Landor HQ was in SF, I was very often in First Class on UA transcons. Either using paper regional upgrades, or comped-up.
So from 1991 to 2004 weren’t all UA transcon flights operated by 762’s? How old could they have been? Not that old, maybe 10 years old in 1991???
I do recall being surprised that the smaller, single aisle 752 had the range. (I knew far less about aviation at 30, no internet yet, no a.net- but always loved flying and airplanes.
One correction: the 2004 752 ps First Class seats were angled flats in dark blue, and were from Singapore Business. I don’t know if UA took them used from Singapore or just bought the same seat in same color. I knew it because I’d often fly a Singapore 747 in J from JFK to Frankfurt. They were NOT comfortable! They looked really nice upon boarding, but when fully flat (but angled) there was a rock hard bump that spanned the seat width and placed right at your lower back/hips which made side sleeping actually painful.
And you are spot on! Row 9 of business was the BEST, 10ft if open space in front of you, and those international recliners UA had were SO comfortable. Except for being leather, the recline on the ps 752 did not go back nearly as far as their international, grey cloth counterparts. On international Biz, those recliners went back “almost” flat! (Which also meant that on a long flight the guy in front of you, his comb-over-dandruffed head was only 2 ft in front of your eyes and hovering almost over your dinner table!

I do remember when those 3 class ps 752’s were reconfigured to the 2 class Diamond seat. In one way they were much better as they were real BED seats. But the “stylishness” of the original ps was gone. AA I believe upped their game and took all the celebrities in LA away from UA with a much more Private First Class, and moving to EWR almost made transcon just another domestic flight, but with Diamond seats. Smisek made ZERO attempt to make those transcons special.

It would be really awesome to see UA do something innovative and take back the unique and premium brand perception!


I upgraded on the old 3-class configuration using cash on PS in 2010, 2011, and 2-class on miles in 2013 respectively. In 2010 (a few days before NYE) the flight was packed, 2011 it was lighter in J class. Amazing J-class seating with an insane amount of legroom in row 10-11 in the exit row. Digi-players were handed out in 2010 and 2011 but were updated a lot in the 2011 version and club access was comped. The 2013 new configuration was also good but the foot space in J (Legacy CO seating) was horrible and I'm 6'0". Economy got the best upgrade with AVOD and throughout and the option to purchase economy once again. Service in J-Class wasn't all that great with rather checked out LAX or JFK-based F/A's but I didn't really care as I was glad I wasn't stuck in the back.

Smisek-Run UAL was hellbent on making PS a legacy Continental "BusinessFirst" 2-Class route which then eroded Entertainment Contracts (like SAG) to AA which required 3-Class service. This was probably the nail in the coffin for the JFK ops when you really think about it.

I'm a diehard DL loyalist for the most part but other than a comped upgrade to J over Thanksgiving last year on a 764ER (ticket adjusted for free because I got a spider bite in L.A. and had to go to urgent care the night before) the service, seating and food on JFK-LAX-JFK hasn't been all that great compared to even some other domestic F-Class routes. This is one route that I really haven't been terribly impressed with Delta on at all and it seems like AA in F would be leaps and bounds above it these days.


Delta's transcon service is much ado about nothing. They have upped the frequencies, yes and are the only airline operating JFK to LAX/SFO/SEA with wide body jets thrown in, which has some benefits, particularly in Economy but also in the premium cabin as these are internationally equipped jets, but I've found the service, food, and steeplechase that is T4 less than memorable and would happily continue to use AA, the A321T, and the conveniences of a massive terminal (and a relatively quiet one) and a premium lounge (Flagship) that the JFK SkyClub cannot hold a candle to and feels a lot less like the lobby of a Marriott at even quiet times during the day.


As a Starwood Elite member hijacked by Marriott, woof, that says a lot. Marriott blows in comparison to us ex-Sheraton folks and Hilton has been a savior in that respect.
 
VC10er
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Re: United p.s. Question

Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:07 pm

Placing all facts aside (mostly because I would not understand any unintended consequences, fleet, costs etc)
It “seems” to me that UA (and others) have a secondary business strategy to put a stake in the ground and become the undisputed leader such as; “owning” or “dominating” a destination or region. Tel Aviv for instance seems like one for UA, of the US3. UNITED unquestionably dominates. With 2 flights a day from EWR both on JIC (Jewel in the Crown) aircraft. The unique and successful SFO on a JIC 77W, and now 3x weekly from DC on a refurbished 772. “IF” ORD and LAX started it wouldn’t shock me, or a second SFO frequency.
Also “in my head anyway”, UNITED has become synonymous with Hawaii and China (though some experimental fights didn’t survive) And Micronesia of course.

My DREAM would be that UNITED becomes the “#1 Undisputed Premium Domestic Long Haul Airline” in such a way that premium fliers who actually buy First just know that on UA their 4/5+ hour flights across NA including Hawaii, perhaps Vancouver?

Starting First with EWR/IAD to SFO/LAX in a “3” class aircraft. First Class has a Polaris “inspired” private, all aisle access seat. A business cabin using the international purple seat (but not purple) and a large E+ section using that newly designed and patented middle seat solution where the middle seat is about 5 inches back from the window & aisle seat. (Have you seen them? Brilliant! UA ought to have them fleet wide in E+) Then a small competitively priced regular Economy.
Poor IAD to SFO on a 737-800! That should be unConstitutional “cruel and unusual punishment!” And a 737-900 is almost as bad) And IAD to HNL seems to have just 1 nonstop a week (at least a 763) At least get IAD to SFO/LAX the new 3 class bird I just invented!

Then Second: A 2 class lie flat First seat for other 4 to 5+ hour flights to places Denver, San Diego, Burbank, even Vegas. Equally SFO to Miami & FLL (yes, I’m aware of AA/LAX, so FIGHT!) - I would love to see UA “try” a seasonal 73MAX with lie flats in First from LAX/SFO to MacArthur Airport, Long Island and connect to a UNITED branded bus to the Hamptons & Fire Island ferries! (there is also a truly shocking amount large businesses, offices and manufacturers in west and central Long Island. Could this be the LGA transcontinental perimeter workaround?

I would recommend that these flights be sub-branded with an evocative, intuitive name, Example: UNITED PD (premier domestic) it would come to mean UNITED by far is the “Best in Class” for Premium Domestic flights on both primary domestic long haul routes, 3 Class, via 2 class boast the most lie flat First and best E+ to any 4 to 5+ hour flights across the USA.

Execution is everything:
Stunning new interiors, enhanced services, best food and amenities. It will also cost more than the competition in FIRST because if indeed executed beautifully there are more than enough high net worth people unfazed by an additional $990 each way!

So, as UNITED is expanding its regular domestic across the country, they are transversing the skies of North America with the most highly coveted flights: business or pleasure!
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
AaronPGH
Posts: 474
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2013 9:13 pm

Re: United p.s. Question

Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:29 pm

VC10er wrote:
Placing all facts aside (mostly because I would not understand any unintended consequences, fleet, costs etc)
It “seems” to me that UA (and others) have a secondary business strategy to put a stake in the ground and become the undisputed leader such as; “owning” or “dominating” a destination or region. Tel Aviv for instance seems like one for UA, of the US3. UNITED unquestionably dominates. With 2 flights a day from EWR both on JIC (Jewel in the Crown) aircraft. The unique and successful SFO on a JIC 77W, and now 3x weekly from DC on a refurbished 772. “IF” ORD and LAX started it wouldn’t shock me, or a second SFO frequency.
Also “in my head anyway”, UNITED has become synonymous with Hawaii and China (though some experimental fights didn’t survive) And Micronesia of course.

My DREAM would be that UNITED becomes the “#1 Undisputed Premium Domestic Long Haul Airline” in such a way that premium fliers who actually buy First just know that on UA their 4/5+ hour flights across NA including Hawaii, perhaps Vancouver?

Starting First with EWR/IAD to SFO/LAX in a “3” class aircraft. First Class has a Polaris “inspired” private, all aisle access seat. A business cabin using the international purple seat (but not purple) and a large E+ section using that newly designed and patented middle seat solution where the middle seat is about 5 inches back from the window & aisle seat. (Have you seen them? Brilliant! UA ought to have them fleet wide in E+) Then a small competitively priced regular Economy.
Poor IAD to SFO on a 737-800! That should be unConstitutional “cruel and unusual punishment!” And a 737-900 is almost as bad) And IAD to HNL seems to have just 1 nonstop a week (at least a 763) At least get IAD to SFO/LAX the new 3 class bird I just invented!

Then Second: A 2 class lie flat First seat for other 4 to 5+ hour flights to places Denver, San Diego, Burbank, even Vegas. Equally SFO to Miami & FLL (yes, I’m aware of AA/LAX, so FIGHT!) - I would love to see UA “try” a seasonal 73MAX with lie flats in First from LAX/SFO to MacArthur Airport, Long Island and connect to a UNITED branded bus to the Hamptons & Fire Island ferries! (there is also a truly shocking amount large businesses, offices and manufacturers in west and central Long Island. Could this be the LGA transcontinental perimeter workaround?

I would recommend that these flights be sub-branded with an evocative, intuitive name, Example: UNITED PD (premier domestic) it would come to mean UNITED by far is the “Best in Class” for Premium Domestic flights on both primary domestic long haul routes, 3 Class, via 2 class boast the most lie flat First and best E+ to any 4 to 5+ hour flights across the USA.

Execution is everything:
Stunning new interiors, enhanced services, best food and amenities. It will also cost more than the competition in FIRST because if indeed executed beautifully there are more than enough high net worth people unfazed by an additional $990 each way!

So, as UNITED is expanding its regular domestic across the country, they are transversing the skies of North America with the most highly coveted flights: business or pleasure!


Love all of this and agree – but I wouldn't avoid attaching it to the Polaris brand. It's a great product, so I think it makes sense to create a sub-brand like Polaris US or something if they're doing major upgrades to get things aligned. Or, a name related to Polaris, in the star family.
 
N649DL
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Re: United p.s. Question

Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:49 pm

jayunited wrote:
tphuang wrote:
keep in mind on EWR-LAX, UA gets lower yield than DL does on JFK-LAX. And they use similarly configured premium sections. For all the talk about cutting back to EWR being worth it, they certainly aren't capturing the highest yielding clients on NYC-LAX market anymore.


UA had been loosing those high yielding NYC clients for years at JFK. UA's slow demise at JFK happened well before the final decision came to close JFK. One of the reasons UA launched p.s. was retirement of the 762s but also to try and stop the bleeding. They had hoped p.s. would keep those high yielding clients, but many of them had left or were leaving for AA whose service back then at JFK was better than UA. You can't isolate out one route you have to look at the entire operation to see the whole picture. Like I stated earlier UA couldn't even make money on JFK-LHR. That route no matter what airline has always been a high yield route because of corporate accounts. Most of that corporate travel took place either in first or business class and yet UA couldn't make money on the route because we had lost so many NYC corporate accounts. When I started working for UA JFK-LAX was around 10-12 nonstop a day when JFK closed the route was down to only 6 nonstop a day with little to no corporate accounts and an abysmal load factor and SFO wasn't any better only 7 nonstop a day. AA had been kicking our as* on these routes for years.

We all focus on Kirby saying leaving JFK was a mistake but there was something else Kirby said when he first made that announcement at a town hall and it was AA benefited greatly from UA's slide at JFK. AA at JFK is now repeating the same mistakes UA made and UA's slide at JFK began just prior to filing bankruptcy. While AA was the initial beneficiary of UA's slide, they didn't capitalize on UA's ultimate demise at JFK, DL and B6 gained the most from UA's departure. And now we see AA making some of the same mistakes UA made at JFK and who is capitalizing DL.

Looking at UA's history at JFK our operation began tanking in mid 2001. Its started out slow but continued to gain speed as UA accelerated towards bankruptcy. UA absolutely gutted JFK in bankruptcy and never had a plan on how to make JFK profitable again. The slide to UA's ultimate demise at JFK continued all the way until Smisek pulled the plug. I'm not giving Smisek a free pass but there is a lot of blame to go around, a lot of people are responsible for UA leaving JFK after 65 years of continuous service. It was death by 1,000 cuts spread out over many years, looking at UA slow death it could almost qualify as torture, hypothetically speaking of course.

A token presence at JFK will not help UA which is why I suspect Kirby hasn't made a push to get back into JFK even though slots are available in the morning and evening. If UA were to go back to JFK it would have to be with force meaning a nothing less than a major line station or a focus hub.


For fun, I was looking at UA's 2000 and 2001 annual reports and JFK was barely mentioned in them. Not even as a Focus City or "Gateway" city but ironically Miami and Toronto were (in 2000)
 
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727stretch
Posts: 81
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Re: United p.s. Question

Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:40 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
seat1a wrote:
Slightly off, but what happened to United's 'The Coast' service?

are you referring to "Ocean to Ocean" service?


You must be an old timer. I used to work with a coworker in BOS who threw that marketing term in once in a while during boarding announcements. :)
 
UA857
Topic Author
Posts: 332
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Re: United p.s. Question

Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:24 am

InnsbruckFlyer wrote:
EWR - SFO/LAX is often flown by 757-200s (PMUA and PMCO), 777-200/ERs (PMCO, PMUA, UA Domestic, and Polaris), 777-300ERs, 787-10s, and the occasional 767-300/400. BOS - SFO/LAX is most often flown by 757-200s (PMUA and PMCO) and 777-200s in the UA Domestic configuration. I don’t believe that they fly PMCO and Polaris 777s to Boston, but I may very well be wrong, if so someone please correct me :)

Are you sure UA flies 767-300ER/-400ER and PMCO 777-200ERs on p.s. flights?
 
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InnsbruckFlyer
Posts: 209
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Re: United p.s. Question

Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:33 am

UA857 wrote:
InnsbruckFlyer wrote:
EWR - SFO/LAX is often flown by 757-200s (PMUA and PMCO), 777-200/ERs (PMCO, PMUA, UA Domestic, and Polaris), 777-300ERs, 787-10s, and the occasional 767-300/400. BOS - SFO/LAX is most often flown by 757-200s (PMUA and PMCO) and 777-200s in the UA Domestic configuration. I don’t believe that they fly PMCO and Polaris 777s to Boston, but I may very well be wrong, if so someone please correct me :)

Are you sure UA flies 767-300ER/-400ER and PMCO 777-200ERs on p.s. flights?


Once in a blue moon.

Last flown aircraft: DH8D OE-LGO < A320 HA-LWC < A320 HA-LWV < A320 SX-DVT < A320 SX-DVK < B733 LZ-BVU < E190 LZ-SOF < A320 D-AIUQ < DH8D OE-LGJ < A321 D-AIRN < A319 LZ-FBB < DH8D OE-LGO < B772 OE-LPC < A346 D-AIHX
 
VC10er
Posts: 4095
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:25 am

Re: United p.s. Question

Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:32 pm

AaronPGH wrote:
VC10er wrote:
Placing all facts aside (mostly because I would not understand any unintended consequences, fleet, costs etc)
It “seems” to me that UA (and others) have a secondary business strategy to put a stake in the ground and become the undisputed leader such as; “owning” or “dominating” a destination or region. Tel Aviv for instance seems like one for UA, of the US3. UNITED unquestionably dominates. With 2 flights a day from EWR both on JIC (Jewel in the Crown) aircraft. The unique and successful SFO on a JIC 77W, and now 3x weekly from DC on a refurbished 772. “IF” ORD and LAX started it wouldn’t shock me, or a second SFO frequency.
Also “in my head anyway”, UNITED has become synonymous with Hawaii and China (though some experimental fights didn’t survive) And Micronesia of course.

My DREAM would be that UNITED becomes the “#1 Undisputed Premium Domestic Long Haul Airline” in such a way that premium fliers who actually buy First just know that on UA their 4/5+ hour flights across NA including Hawaii, perhaps Vancouver?

Starting First with EWR/IAD to SFO/LAX in a “3” class aircraft. First Class has a Polaris “inspired” private, all aisle access seat. A business cabin using the international purple seat (but not purple) and a large E+ section using that newly designed and patented middle seat solution where the middle seat is about 5 inches back from the window & aisle seat. (Have you seen them? Brilliant! UA ought to have them fleet wide in E+) Then a small competitively priced regular Economy.
Poor IAD to SFO on a 737-800! That should be unConstitutional “cruel and unusual punishment!” And a 737-900 is almost as bad) And IAD to HNL seems to have just 1 nonstop a week (at least a 763) At least get IAD to SFO/LAX the new 3 class bird I just invented!

Then Second: A 2 class lie flat First seat for other 4 to 5+ hour flights to places Denver, San Diego, Burbank, even Vegas. Equally SFO to Miami & FLL (yes, I’m aware of AA/LAX, so FIGHT!) - I would love to see UA “try” a seasonal 73MAX with lie flats in First from LAX/SFO to MacArthur Airport, Long Island and connect to a UNITED branded bus to the Hamptons & Fire Island ferries! (there is also a truly shocking amount large businesses, offices and manufacturers in west and central Long Island. Could this be the LGA transcontinental perimeter workaround?

I would recommend that these flights be sub-branded with an evocative, intuitive name, Example: UNITED PD (premier domestic) it would come to mean UNITED by far is the “Best in Class” for Premium Domestic flights on both primary domestic long haul routes, 3 Class, via 2 class boast the most lie flat First and best E+ to any 4 to 5+ hour flights across the USA.

Execution is everything:
Stunning new interiors, enhanced services, best food and amenities. It will also cost more than the competition in FIRST because if indeed executed beautifully there are more than enough high net worth people unfazed by an additional $990 each way!

So, as UNITED is expanding its regular domestic across the country, they are transversing the skies of North America with the most highly coveted flights: business or pleasure!


Love all of this and agree – but I wouldn't avoid attaching it to the Polaris brand. It's a great product, so I think it makes sense to create a sub-brand like Polaris US or something if they're doing major upgrades to get things aligned. Or, a name related to Polaris, in the star family.


I’m THRILLED you love my CRAZY DREAM! I agree it should NOT be attached to “Polaris”- I said Polaris “inspired” Domestic First Class lie flat, all aisle access. What I mean by “inspired” for Trranscon-First is a hard product that retains some of Polaris design and aesthetics DNA: consistency matters- a lot.
I imagine a seat that has the basic “footprint” of AA’s A321 Transcon, for practical reasons on an NB. But better than AA. Start by adding a “Polaris-like” side wall on the aisle that are a bit bigger/longer than AA which will provide a bit more privacy (regular people love privacy, celebrities require it). It would have finishes in silver & blue ala Polaris. Around and over the top there would be the 3” blue transparent wall with the grid design. A white marble topped side table and ad the brushed aluminum HANDLE BAR (IMHO: it is of the best parts of an Intn’l Polaris seat- I’m not even old and wobbly “yet” but after many hours of sitting or sleeping, when I go to stand up that bar really helps hoist & steady you until both feet are firmly planted on the floor- it’s a small bit of genus) use the same actual Polaris seat or close. Basically while a different seat structure, it reinforces a consistent brand.

I CANNOT STATE THIS MORE STRONGLY: Anyone who flies UNITED especially in a premium cabin, should consciously & subconsciously know they are on UNITED or the BILLIONS spent don’t stick in a pax mind.
The interiors are branded not generic (TODAY, UA 737-8/9, 752 & 764 have generic interiors, so bland it could be any airline). A branded interior does NOT MEAN a UNITED logo everywhere you look. It does mean the interior design, colors, finishes, patterns and style are uniquely, unmistakably UNITED and become the visual manifestation of what the “new” UNITED stands for! (Lufthansa is among the best at understandings this)

UAL HQ is investing MANY BILLIONS on an entire UNITED brand make over, the ROI will come in the form of building brand affinity, and in turn loyalty. So, when someone in NYC (a very fractured, highly competitive market) a premium paying traveler should not even think look to see who’s cheaper. If their boss tells them “you must be in LA for Thursday’s meeting” they then go directly to united.com and select their flight.

I don’t know what type of aircraft mix is right, and perhaps there won’t be until the 797 is available. But I do think that one airline can truly own being the best most comprehensive North America Transcontinental airline- and believe it’s there for UNITED to take- if it’s a viable business strategy. But they certainly won’t if current 752’s and HD 772’s is their offer. It seems ok for now, but with more and better- they can capture the whole new West Side of NYC, Hudson Yards, the financial district and the new exploding NJ Hudson River business district.
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
NJHoboken
Posts: 2
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Re: United p.s. Question

Sat Sep 07, 2019 5:25 pm

I’m an NJ based United GS flyer and for obvious reasons, I’m happy they moved lie-flat transcon to EWR. That said, as someone that flies in paid J, I only care that they have a lie-flat seat and decent food (when I fly at mealtimes, which I avoid). I think the biggest issue with the service today is the fact that the ex-UAL 28 J birds go mechanical all of the time. The 737-10 can’t get here fast enough.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
VC10er
Posts: 4095
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:25 am

Re: United p.s. Question

Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:41 pm

[quote="NJHoboken"]I’m an NJ based United GS flyer and for obvious reasons, I’m happy they moved lie-flat transcon to EWR. That said, as someone that flies in paid J, I only care that they have a lie-flat seat and decent food (when I fly at mealtimes, which I avoid). I think the biggest issue with the service today is the fact that the ex-UAL 28 J birds go mechanical all of the time. The 737-10 can’t get here soon enough.

I am GS as well. I also live in Greenwich Village in Manhattan so EWR is a joy ride vs JFK. Although I was friends with many United JFK employees, especially the check-in and RCC people. They were devastated by the drawdown. Then UA finally stopped Tokyo’s 744, they were really wrecked. But I do see some of them at EWR today.

My primary issue is really the condition of the First cabin on the 752. Even if it’s one that is not so run down, the product is so lacking, the interiors are so bland. If you really want to notice how blah the Smiseck 752 is, take the 78J out bound and a 752 on the return. Even new wallpaper on the bulkheads and some throw pillows would be a huge improvement!
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
UA857
Topic Author
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Re: United p.s. Question

Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:30 am

Do PMUA 757 have Polaris Seats?
 
CONTACREW
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Re: United p.s. Question

Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:10 am

UA857 wrote:
Do PMUA 757 have Polaris Seats?


Nope
Flight Attendants prepare doors for departure, cross check verify straps standby for all call
 
UA857
Topic Author
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Re: United p.s. Question

Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:50 pm

Which planes in the United fleet have Polaris?
 
VC10er
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Re: United p.s. Question

Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:52 pm

UA857 wrote:
Which planes in the United fleet have Polaris?


It will remain a bit confusing for a while. First because the most premium cabin aboard an international widebody will be named Polaris even if a particular aircraft has the old hard product seat (the Diamond seat) which does not have all aisle access, less private as you will have a seat mate. It’s not a horrible seat, it will provide a comfortable sleep but it is a very ordinary seat. If you have flown a United 767-400, 787-8/9 or 757 that will be the seat. It is still called Polaris because it does come along with other Polaris fills such Polaris Lounge access and Polaris blankets etc.
The new all aisle access, more private and more spacious seat is now being installed at a faster pace now that the summer travel is over. Therefore more and more preexisting aircraft are being totally refurbished-both with the new Polaris seat, and purple Premium Economy seats.
Also as brand new wide-body aircraft that are being delivered (such as the 787-10 and about 4 more 777-300s, they will come delivered with the NEW Polaris seats and purple Premium Economy.

How can you know for sure if you will get the new Polaris seat is pretty easy if you have a need to know before purchasing a ticket?
Before you buy your ticket find out what aircraft type you will be flying. If your aircraft is a 777-300 or 787-10 you can rest assured you will be in the NEW POLARIS SEAT.
If your flight is being operated by a 777-200 or 767-300, you will need to check out the seat map. The seat maps look very different. The old style seat look like corn kernels on an angle, a new Polaris seat on a refurbished 777-200 or 767-300 will be a larger square shape. HOWEVER THAT IS NOT A GUARANTEE, as sometimes UA must swap aircraft, and your newly refurbished Polaris seat shown in the map “might” be swapped out, and when you board you might be very disappointed.
One last way you can be pretty sure you will get the new Polaris seat is a 767-300 from EWR to LHR.

You can go to United.com and watch the progress of refurbishments. It will show you that out of 92 (made up number) that 67 are completed, along with a pie chart and “% complete”- I applaud United’s pace but United is a very large airline (My personal bet is 24 months before every WB is 100% done refurbishing ALL 772s, 763s, 764s, 787-8 & 787-9s) Although they have promised that everything will be completed by end of 2020. WHAT ONE MUST BE VERY CERTAIN OF is getting a domestic High Density on an international route. But I don’t think that will happen again next summer.

As for the 757-200’s? That’s anyone’s guess! Same for lie flat seats on 737MAX’s once they are cleared for take off.

In my personal opinion, the 757-200s stick out as Unite’s worst looking Polaris or Transcontinental First . And nobody has said a peep about what will happen to them other than perhaps a bit more sprucing up. I really wish United took the 752 problem more seriously. It’s not as if United doesn’t have their new look locked down. Even if they kept the old seat, a lot more can be done so they don’t look as junky as a UA 737-800!
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
xxcr
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Re: United p.s. Question

Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:58 pm

UA857 wrote:
Which planes in the United fleet have Polaris?



Well Polaris is used as a name for the new J class, not seats. If you're referring to the new Polaris seats then:

these are the planes that have the True Polaris seats/service-International flights only. Sold as F on domestic flights
77W
78J
772(retrofitted birds)
763(retrofitted birds, and High J birds only)

Old seats but sold as Polaris-International flights only. Sold as F on domestic flights
763(non-retrofitted)
764(diamond seats)
789-(diamond seats) retrofits start this year
788-(Diamond Seats) retrofits start this year.
772(PMCO) (Diamond seats)
772(PMUA)(IPTE seats)
752---16J seats (PMCO) Sold as domestic business on SFO/LAX-EWR and SFO-BOS

752--28J seats, (sold as domestic business on SFO/LAX-EWR and SFO-BOS.


Hope this helps answer your question.
 
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Re: United p.s. Question

Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:25 am

It’s very clear to me what the future holds for international WB aircraft, flying international or domestic routes.

What is extremely unclear is United’s future narrow body fleet. There are 3 styles of First Class recliners. 1: the newest version with the special recline and storage spaces (currently on all Airbuses, 73G and 753s) 2: The 737-900 First seat which is “ok” but doesn’t match anything else, 3: the 737-800 with seats that must have come 2nd hand from Tower Air, that look and feel terrible.

The whole enchilada interiors on the new (but used Airbuses, the pmUA Airbus interior which at least look a bit like the true brand new interiors and the 737-800’s who’s interiors look like an old 752.

When the day comes that the 737MAXs fly again, I assume they will have the whole enchilada new interiors like the new (but used) Airbuses.
The 752’s look awful in First (or Polaris if flying EWR & IAD TAtL routes)

I get frying bigger fish first...but we never really discuss the fact that UA interior ((branded) design across the domestic narrow body fleet will vary significantly. That doesn’t even take into account what the new delivery E175 will look like.
I just know that an airline like Lufthansa or SWISS would create at least 2 designs, one for 788s, A350s, A330/440 and A380, and a different but very Lufthansa design for NB A320 series.
United management selected great work from PriestmanGoode, it would be a pity to see that vision diluted by waiting 7/8 years for the 797.

And while EWR/SFO is United’s most profitable route, yet doing nothing is just like ringing the dinner bell for the competition to come in and take it.
I do hope the rumors of a new domestic lie flat design comes true- they are sorely lacking any personality that fits the new United look.
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
UA857
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Re: United p.s. Question

Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:53 pm

Does UA still fly the 777-300/ER on SFO-EWR? I checked FlightAware and no UA flights between SFO-EWR show a 77W.
 
HP69
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Re: United p.s. Question

Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:14 pm

UA857 wrote:
Does UA still fly the 777-300/ER on SFO-EWR? I checked FlightAware and no UA flights between SFO-EWR show a 77W.


Not regularly anymore. Only 772/752 now.
 
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STT757
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United p.s. Question

Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:43 pm

HP69 wrote:
UA857 wrote:
Does UA still fly the 777-300/ER on SFO-EWR? I checked FlightAware and no UA flights between SFO-EWR show a 77W.


Not regularly anymore. Only 772/752 now.


And 787-10.

EWR-SFO

3 772, 1 787-10, 11 752

EWR-LAX

1 772, 2 787-10, 9 752
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
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Re: United p.s. Question

Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:23 pm

HP69 wrote:
UA857 wrote:
Does UA still fly the 777-300/ER on SFO-EWR? I checked FlightAware and no UA flights between SFO-EWR show a 77W.


Not regularly anymore. Only 772/752 now.


How come no more 77W on transcon?
 
tootallsd
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Re: United p.s. Question

Mon Sep 23, 2019 10:37 pm

Can we apply the name VEGA to the Polaris inspired concept?
 
xxcr
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Re: United p.s. Question

Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:17 pm

UA857 wrote:
HP69 wrote:
UA857 wrote:
Does UA still fly the 777-300/ER on SFO-EWR? I checked FlightAware and no UA flights between SFO-EWR show a 77W.


Not regularly anymore. Only 772/752 now.


How come no more 77W on transcon?


UA only flew the 77W on transcon as a training flight so the crew could get used to the new plane. No need to fly the 77W on transcon now unless they need to re-position the plane or last minute swap.

you'll only see the 78J, 772, and 752 on the SFO/LAX-EWR route. You'll see the 77W, or 772(Polaris) as a last minute plane swap or re-positioning flight.
 
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SCFlyer
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Re: United p.s. Question

Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:21 am

Speaking of p.s., I've noticed the infamous "Leon103102" has been "edit warring" over at the Wikipedia page again through his other accounts.
Noticed the 77W had disappeared from the page the moment someone here on this site had mentioned the 77Ws don't fly on the p.s routes at all (except for the occasional sub).
 
jsteeves3
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Re: United p.s. Question

Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:56 am

Idk if anyone finds this interesting but back in 2017 I was put on a SFO-HNL extra flight (they added this flight because so many people misconnected or got booted of Hawaii flights that day)and it was on a 752 in p.s. configuration... any clue why? Just a spare plane that they could use?
 
UA857
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Re: United p.s. Question

Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:05 am

SCFlyer wrote:
Speaking of p.s., I've noticed the infamous "Leon103102" has been "edit warring" over at the Wikipedia page again through his other accounts.
Noticed the 77W had disappeared from the page the moment someone here on this site had mentioned the 77Ws don't fly on the p.s routes at all (except for the occasional sub).


Wikipedia is not a reliable source.
 
UA857
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Re: United p.s. Question

Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:05 am

Is there an official p.s. fleet.
 
UA857
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Re: United p.s. Question

Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:09 am

xxcr wrote:
UA857 wrote:
HP69 wrote:

Not regularly anymore. Only 772/752 now.


How come no more 77W on transcon?


UA only flew the 77W on transcon as a training flight so the crew could get used to the new plane. No need to fly the 77W on transcon now unless they need to re-position the plane or last minute swap.

you'll only see the 78J, 772, and 752 on the SFO/LAX-EWR route. You'll see the 77W, or 772(Polaris) as a last minute plane swap or re-positioning flight.


So are only domestic 777s used on this route.
 
strfyr51
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Re: United p.s. Question

Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:35 am

N649DL wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
N649DL wrote:

It's pretty vague to be honest with you but Menu cards just say Boston, New York, San Francisco, Los Angeles with no printed branding except "Welcome Aboard" at the top. UA is in a bit of an identity crisis since they pulled out of JFK, IMHO (and I think they regret it too.)


UA has an identity crisis because they pulled out of JFK? Huh?? They sure do regret it and Scott Kirby knows it was a mistake to pull out of JFK, and an idiotic one under Smisek. It will be tough for UA to get back in. They lost a lot of corporate contracts because of that decision. That said, UA has no identity crisis stemming from a decision 5 years ago to stop flying out of JFK. DL does not suffer from an identity crisis because it has shrunk its EWR service, now has it?


Kirby is a numbers guy and was likely reading into the corporate contracts that didn't follow UA to EWR as a result and/or went to the competition out of JFK as a result. IMHO, a huge deal when the competition AA/DL/B6 fly out of all 3 NYC airports and UA doesn't.

DL shrunk at EWR from a TATL perspective but has upped capacity by flying hourly 737s on EWR-ATL by the fall (ditching the M88/M90/717 for the most part) and starting EWR-BOS and retaining EWR-RDU. It's a different strategy altogether but refurbishing the SkyClub and gate areas show that DL is still present at EWR for the most part.

UAL ended JFK service under Smisek But we didn't have out Own terminal even then, So? Going Back will require our OWN Terminal and probably a damn Billion Dollar expenditure to get one as well. The Problem with JFK? Is Where? The situation there is like Building a Fort. Who would make Room for a New United Terminal??
 
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Re: United p.s. Question

Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:27 am

strfyr51 wrote:
N649DL wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:

UA has an identity crisis because they pulled out of JFK? Huh?? They sure do regret it and Scott Kirby knows it was a mistake to pull out of JFK, and an idiotic one under Smisek. It will be tough for UA to get back in. They lost a lot of corporate contracts because of that decision. That said, UA has no identity crisis stemming from a decision 5 years ago to stop flying out of JFK. DL does not suffer from an identity crisis because it has shrunk its EWR service, now has it?


Kirby is a numbers guy and was likely reading into the corporate contracts that didn't follow UA to EWR as a result and/or went to the competition out of JFK as a result. IMHO, a huge deal when the competition AA/DL/B6 fly out of all 3 NYC airports and UA doesn't.

DL shrunk at EWR from a TATL perspective but has upped capacity by flying hourly 737s on EWR-ATL by the fall (ditching the M88/M90/717 for the most part) and starting EWR-BOS and retaining EWR-RDU. It's a different strategy altogether but refurbishing the SkyClub and gate areas show that DL is still present at EWR for the most part.

UAL ended JFK service under Smisek But we didn't have out Own terminal even then, So? Going Back will require our OWN Terminal and probably a damn Billion Dollar expenditure to get one as well. The Problem with JFK? Is Where? The situation there is like Building a Fort. Who would make Room for a New United Terminal??


UA wouldn't necessarily need its own terminal at JFK. It would need slots. JFK is about to undergo a major overhaul of its terminals (T1 will be torn down, as will T7, both I think in 2021 or 2022). T8 is to be expanded to make room for BA and presumably IB, with 5 additional wide body capable gates to be added. A new terminal will sit on the space where T7 is and T1/T2 will be rebuilt into a combined larger one. There could be space for UA but its a long shot they'll re-enter the transcon market (LAX/SFO) from JFK.
 
UA857
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Re: United p.s. Question

Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:31 pm

When did UA put domestic 777 on SFO-EWR.
 
N649DL
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Re: United p.s. Question

Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:50 pm

UA857 wrote:
When did UA put domestic 777 on SFO-EWR.


2016-2017 when they realized the 15 ex-PS 757s weren't enough to cover the spread because of MX issues, IIRC. Under the hood, the whole plan just seemed like a gimmick to promote EWR and ditch JFK operations.

Those domestic 777s are awful for these so-called "premium" routes in Y. Such a drastic difference between first class and economy and not the way it was back in the day using the 752s out of JFK when there was a Buy-on-board brunch plan for E+ when they phased comped meals out in around 2006-2007.
 
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Re: United p.s. Question

Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:02 am

SCFlyer wrote:
Speaking of p.s., I've noticed the infamous "Leon103102" has been "edit warring" over at the Wikipedia page again through his other accounts.
Noticed the 77W had disappeared from the page the moment someone here on this site had mentioned the 77Ws don't fly on the p.s routes at all (except for the occasional sub).


Pretty sure "Leon" is UA857 on this site judging by the line of questioning...
I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
 
UA857
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Re: United p.s. Question

Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:53 am

airportugal310 wrote:
SCFlyer wrote:
Speaking of p.s., I've noticed the infamous "Leon103102" has been "edit warring" over at the Wikipedia page again through his other accounts.
Noticed the 77W had disappeared from the page the moment someone here on this site had mentioned the 77Ws don't fly on the p.s routes at all (except for the occasional sub).


Pretty sure "Leon" is UA857 on this site judging by the line of questioning...

I'm not this wikipedia user.
 
VC10er
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Re: United p.s. Question

Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:47 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
N649DL wrote:

Kirby is a numbers guy and was likely reading into the corporate contracts that didn't follow UA to EWR as a result and/or went to the competition out of JFK as a result. IMHO, a huge deal when the competition AA/DL/B6 fly out of all 3 NYC airports and UA doesn't.

DL shrunk at EWR from a TATL perspective but has upped capacity by flying hourly 737s on EWR-ATL by the fall (ditching the M88/M90/717 for the most part) and starting EWR-BOS and retaining EWR-RDU. It's a different strategy altogether but refurbishing the SkyClub and gate areas show that DL is still present at EWR for the most part.

UAL ended JFK service under Smisek But we didn't have out Own terminal even then, So? Going Back will require our OWN Terminal and probably a damn Billion Dollar expenditure to get one as well. The Problem with JFK? Is Where? The situation there is like Building a Fort. Who would make Room for a New United Terminal??


UA wouldn't necessarily need its own terminal at JFK. It would need slots. JFK is about to undergo a major overhaul of its terminals (T1 will be torn down, as will T7, both I think in 2021 or 2022). T8 is to be expanded to make room for BA and presumably IB, with 5 additional wide body capable gates to be added. A new terminal will sit on the space where T7 is and T1/T2 will be rebuilt into a combined larger one. There could be space for UA but its a long shot they'll re-enter the transcon market (LAX/SFO) from JFK.


What year was T1 built? I haven’t been through there in so many years! I remember giant columns covered in a metal mesh (an attempt at cool industrial look) but it’s not THAT old, right? 25 years???
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
N649DL
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Re: United p.s. Question

Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:00 am

VC10er wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
UAL ended JFK service under Smisek But we didn't have out Own terminal even then, So? Going Back will require our OWN Terminal and probably a damn Billion Dollar expenditure to get one as well. The Problem with JFK? Is Where? The situation there is like Building a Fort. Who would make Room for a New United Terminal??


UA wouldn't necessarily need its own terminal at JFK. It would need slots. JFK is about to undergo a major overhaul of its terminals (T1 will be torn down, as will T7, both I think in 2021 or 2022). T8 is to be expanded to make room for BA and presumably IB, with 5 additional wide body capable gates to be added. A new terminal will sit on the space where T7 is and T1/T2 will be rebuilt into a combined larger one. There could be space for UA but its a long shot they'll re-enter the transcon market (LAX/SFO) from JFK.


What year was T1 built? I haven’t been through there in so many years! I remember giant columns covered in a metal mesh (an attempt at cool industrial look) but it’s not THAT old, right? 25 years???


I think it's from 1998. The building before that, ugh, that seemed horrible. 1998 was too late haha.
 
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SCFlyer
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Re: United p.s. Question

Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:59 pm

airportugal310 wrote:
SCFlyer wrote:
Speaking of p.s., I've noticed the infamous "Leon103102" has been "edit warring" over at the Wikipedia page again through his other accounts.
Noticed the 77W had disappeared from the page the moment someone here on this site had mentioned the 77Ws don't fly on the p.s routes at all (except for the occasional sub).


Pretty sure "Leon" is UA857 on this site judging by the line of questioning...


Interestingly the article changed (and was quickly reverted back) around the same time UA857 replied here. Co-incidence? I think not.
 
UA857
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Re: United p.s. Question

Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:21 am

According to FlightAware https://flightaware.com/live/flight/UAL ... /KEWR/KSFO a 767 is operating a transcon today is this an equipment sub?

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