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Zoedyn
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CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:37 am

https://m.weibo.cn/5120831098/4411067281646750

Per its SinaWeibo feed just now this evening Aug 30, COMAC has announced that each of CN3 has today signed agreement to buy 35 ARJ21s from the Chinese jet maker, representing a big order of 105 for the regional jet.

This is absolutely and definitely a huge “deal” for COMAC!
 
Armodeen
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Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:47 am

Does it still fly only a couple of sectors a day or they getting some use out of it these days?

Can't imagine the CN3 being particularly thrilled about this tbh.
 
juliuswong
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Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:57 am

Now hitting international news portal: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-air- ... SKCN1VK139

Now it has a total of 185 gross order.
China Eastern Airlines- 35
China Southern Airlines- 35
Air China- 35
Chengdu Airlines- 30
Urumqi Airlines- 20
Genghis Khan Airlines- 25
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
vin2basketball
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Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:07 pm

Zoedyn wrote:
https://m.weibo.cn/5120831098/4411067281646750

Per its SinaWeibo feed just now this evening Aug 30, COMAC has announced that each of CN3 has today signed agreement to buy 35 ARJ21s from the Chinese jet maker, representing a big order of 105 for the regional jet.

This is absolutely and definitely a huge “deal” for COMAC!


These orders were virtually pre-ordained in a country with such tight government integration into the economy - so good for COMAC I guess but this wasn't exactly a shock
 
MalevTU134
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Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:21 pm

Zoedyn wrote:
https://m.weibo.cn/5120831098/4411067281646750

Per its SinaWeibo feed just now this evening Aug 30, COMAC has announced that each of CN3 has today signed agreement to buy 35 ARJ21s from the Chinese jet maker, representing a big order of 105 for the regional jet.

This is absolutely and definitely a huge “deal” for COMAC!

This would be a good time to put the word "agreement" in brackets, if there ever was any. Maybe "obligation" would be a better choice of word?

35 aircraft each...so, they will be delivered by, what...2040? And with the current statistics, each one of the CN3 will be able to operate, what...10 return flights daily with these aircraft? Or am I being too optimistic here?

Wouldn't it be quicker and cheaper to make it 10 aircraft and a sh*tload of spare parts?
 
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zeke
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Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:23 pm

Zoedyn wrote:
https://m.weibo.cn/5120831098/4411067281646750

Per its SinaWeibo feed just now this evening Aug 30, COMAC has announced that each of CN3 has today signed agreement to buy 35 ARJ21s from the Chinese jet maker, representing a big order of 105 for the regional jet.

This is absolutely and definitely a huge “deal” for COMAC!


Isn’t that misleading. COMAC makes the “order” and then assigns where they go. Exactly the same with any mainland order from foreign OEMS.
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RobK
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Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:37 pm

Zoedyn wrote:
https://m.weibo.cn/5120831098/4411067281646750

Per its SinaWeibo feed just now this evening Aug 30, COMAC has announced that each of CN3 has today signed agreement to buy 35 ARJ21s from the Chinese jet maker, representing a big order of 105 for the regional jet.

This is absolutely and definitely a huge “deal” for COMAC!


Not really. Just yet an another example of China's dictatorship where the airlines have been forced to order inferior home grown products unless they want shutting down. I'm quite sure if the airlines had had any say in the matter the order would be showing on Airbus or Boeing's order books, not COMAC's.
 
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RobK
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Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:38 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
Zoedyn wrote:
https://m.weibo.cn/5120831098/4411067281646750

Per its SinaWeibo feed just now this evening Aug 30, COMAC has announced that each of CN3 has today signed agreement to buy 35 ARJ21s from the Chinese jet maker, representing a big order of 105 for the regional jet.

This is absolutely and definitely a huge “deal” for COMAC!

This would be a good time to put the word "agreement" in brackets, if there ever was any. Maybe "obligation" would be a better choice of word?

35 aircraft each...so, they will be delivered by, what...2040? And with the current statistics, each one of the CN3 will be able to operate, what...10 return flights daily with these aircraft? Or am I being too optimistic here?

Wouldn't it be quicker and cheaper to make it 10 aircraft and a sh*tload of spare parts?


Genuinely laughing at that! So true. :rotfl:
 
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Faro
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Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:42 pm

Reliability, maintenance and in-service support...that is supposedly where the West really has the big edge over the East...will the ARJ21 be sufficiently reliable, easily maintainable and will it have prompt and competent in-service support from the manufacturer?...

Time will tell...


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MalevTU134
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Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:52 pm

Faro wrote:
Reliability, maintenance and in-service support...that is supposedly where the West really has the big edge over the East...will the ARJ21 be sufficiently reliable, easily maintainable and will it have prompt and competent in-service support from the manufacturer?...

Time will tell...


Faro

I believe time is telling. Or has already told... This model has been in service for something like 3 years now. Abysmal reliability, apparently. And not even on the horizon of being FAA or EASA approved. What else does time need to tell?
 
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Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Fri Aug 30, 2019 1:27 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
What else does time need to tell?

Nothing, it's just how things are done in the worker's paradise.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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jupiter2
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Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Fri Aug 30, 2019 1:34 pm

I would've thought that this "order" is more a "placement" of aircraft with the individual airlines involved, whether they like it or not. I'd question whether there will be actually a transfer of funds for the aircraft as well.

I wonder if CA and CZ follow the MU lead and set up subsidiaries to operate these aircraft and restrict sale for these flights to Chinese nationals ?
 
chrisp390
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Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Fri Aug 30, 2019 1:36 pm

It’s China’s way of making big headlines in China that say, “look, our airlines don’t need foreign airplanes anymore, China number one.” In this trade war environment it is more a PR a stunt than anything as the general public in China are probably not aware of the substantial problems with the ARJ. The airlines may just indefinitely defer these orders or later convert them to the C919.
 
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Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Fri Aug 30, 2019 1:40 pm

Revelation wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
What else does time need to tell?

Nothing, it's just how things are done in the worker's paradise.

The ARJ-21 is entering service inferior to the E-275-190. I did some back of the envelope numbers and:
1. Higher cost per hour, including purchase cost, than the E2-190/A220-100. Much higher when maintenance and spare aircraft are included.
2. Poor fuel burn even versus an E175 from what little has been released.
3. Lower payload than E2/A220.
4. Poor range.
5. Not scope clause compliant. :duck:

Other than a "You shall buy" market, who would buy?

I cannot think of a single mission where used E-170/175 or cr9 doesn't have far better economics.

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chonetsao
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Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Fri Aug 30, 2019 1:48 pm

Soon C919 will enter the CNX books too. A combination of ARJ21 and C919... China has a huge market for air transportation delay and cancellation insurance, people can buy such insurance for any flight they bought to get compensated for delays and cancellations. I wonder if there would be a ARJ21 and C919 specialty insurance in case you get to fly one of them. I can see good business opportunities there.
 
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Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Fri Aug 30, 2019 1:53 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Revelation wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
What else does time need to tell?

Nothing, it's just how things are done in the worker's paradise.

The ARJ-21 is entering service inferior to the E-275-190. I did some back of the envelope numbers and:
1. Higher cost per hour, including purchase cost, than the E2-190/A220-100. Much higher when maintenance and spare aircraft are included.
2. Poor fuel burn even versus an E175 from what little has been released.
3. Lower payload than E2/A220.
4. Poor range.
5. Not scope clause compliant. :duck:

Other than a "You shall buy" market, who would buy?

I cannot think of a single mission where used E-170/175 or cr9 doesn't have far better economics.

Lightsaber


Given that it looks like a DC-9-10 with winglets and CRJ CF-34 engines, that's not surprising. Having said that, it shows how the basic DC-9 design just won't die!
 
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Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Fri Aug 30, 2019 2:07 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Revelation wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
What else does time need to tell?

Nothing, it's just how things are done in the worker's paradise.

The ARJ-21 is entering service inferior to the E-275-190. I did some back of the envelope numbers and:
1. Higher cost per hour, including purchase cost, than the E2-190/A220-100. Much higher when maintenance and spare aircraft are included.
2. Poor fuel burn even versus an E175 from what little has been released.
3. Lower payload than E2/A220.
4. Poor range.
5. Not scope clause compliant. :duck:

Other than a "You shall buy" market, who would buy?

I cannot think of a single mission where used E-170/175 or cr9 doesn't have far better economics.

Lightsaber


Its a plane thats had numerous delays and is indeed already outdated but Comac is still a developing company and improvements can be made, we need more aircraft manufacturers to break up the Boeing and Airbus Duopoly. The ARJ-21 is a regional Jet so its range may not be as big a issue for carriers that operate in say Indonesia and central China.
 
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Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Fri Aug 30, 2019 2:17 pm

TheKennady2 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Nothing, it's just how things are done in the worker's paradise.

The ARJ-21 is entering service inferior to the E-275-190. I did some back of the envelope numbers and:
1. Higher cost per hour, including purchase cost, than the E2-190/A220-100. Much higher when maintenance and spare aircraft are included.
2. Poor fuel burn even versus an E175 from what little has been released.
3. Lower payload than E2/A220.
4. Poor range.
5. Not scope clause compliant. :duck:

Other than a "You shall buy" market, who would buy?

I cannot think of a single mission where used E-170/175 or cr9 doesn't have far better economics.

Lightsaber


Its a plane thats had numerous delays and is indeed already outdated but Comac is still a developing company and improvements can be made, we need more aircraft manufacturers to break up the Boeing and Airbus Duopoly. The ARJ-21 is a regional Jet so its range may not be as big a issue for carriers that operate in say Indonesia and central China.

But why on earth would those carriers choose this second-grade aircraft, given the other options thay have? If it's not price, not reliability, not maintenance efficiency...unless they are forced to, obviously.
 
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Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Fri Aug 30, 2019 2:38 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
But why on earth would those carriers choose this second-grade aircraft, given the other options thay have? If it's not price, not reliability, not maintenance efficiency...unless they are forced to, obviously.

This is political theater.

Grab some popcorn, take a seat, enjoy the show.

Clearly no serious money has changed hands.

Clearly there are many exit paths.

Clearly the CN3 know how the game is played.

They all have plenty of reliable and efficient imported aircraft on order, and this does not change that fact.

We've already seen one of the CN3 create a subsidiary to hive off all their operations with the home grown aircraft.

Easy to pitch it all over the side if it should go badly.

And hey, there's an outside chance that many years from now a useful aircraft may emerge.

In the mean time the CN3 need to keep the aviation ministry and the rest of the central government on their side.

Think of this as a very affordable cost of doing business in the worker's paradise.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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raylee67
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Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:11 pm

They can order 105 or 1050, or whatever number they want. At the current rate of delivery, they won't get them until 2050.
319/20/21 332/33 342/43/45 359/51 388 707 717 732/36/3G/38/39 74R/42/43/44/4E/48 757 762/63 772/7L/73/7W 788/89 D10 M80 135/40/45 175/90 DH1/4 CRJ/R7 L10
AY LH OU SR BA FI LX
AA DL UA NW AC CP WS FL NK PD
CI NH SQ KA CX JL BR OZ TG KE CA CZ NZ JQ RS
 
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Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:59 pm

RobK wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
Zoedyn wrote:
https://m.weibo.cn/5120831098/4411067281646750

Per its SinaWeibo feed just now this evening Aug 30, COMAC has announced that each of CN3 has today signed agreement to buy 35 ARJ21s from the Chinese jet maker, representing a big order of 105 for the regional jet.

This is absolutely and definitely a huge “deal” for COMAC!

This would be a good time to put the word "agreement" in brackets, if there ever was any. Maybe "obligation" would be a better choice of word?

35 aircraft each...so, they will be delivered by, what...2040? And with the current statistics, each one of the CN3 will be able to operate, what...10 return flights daily with these aircraft? Or am I being too optimistic here?

Wouldn't it be quicker and cheaper to make it 10 aircraft and a sh*tload of spare parts?


Genuinely laughing at that! So true. :rotfl:


Well, but China's high-speed trains and their railway manufacture and infrastructure companies seem to be performing well in the world now, albeit with copycat technology and designs. I know that aviation is another step up the ramp, but they will probably get there one of these days. Before Russia?
 
DWC
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Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Fri Aug 30, 2019 4:13 pm

spinotter wrote:
Well, but China's high-speed trains and their railway manufacture and infrastructure companies seem to be performing well in the world now, albeit with copycat technology and designs. I know that aviation is another step up the ramp, but they will probably get there one of these days. Before Russia?

They will.
Like Japan, they want to master every single technology. Japan was barred from getting back into aviation solo due to WWII, but they managed to circumvent that by working for Boeing - the Mitsubishi is for the side show.
China now has the market, the finances & political connections to pull that off, way more than Russia. Anyone who doubts Chinese tech abilities should travel to China & also measure how fast they are doing this. Their speedtrain network now dwarfs Europe's by every metric.
China is not immune to industrial blunders, but the West has examples enough of market failures of their own.
While outdated, there is more to the ARJ21 than just efficiency : they are entering a highly "non-contestable" market, a macro-economic analysis shows that not entering it is actually the worse mid-term solution.
That said, I am not ready to board one of those ;)
 
texl1649
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Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Fri Aug 30, 2019 4:18 pm

Long live the T-tails/DC-9 legacy/almost-a-derivative!

They have lots of resources, no doubt, but I do question how much they spend on the welfare/healthcare of their citizens.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:13 pm

ARJ21 reliability aside, it's ridiculous to think that a plane as small as ARJ is actually good for Chinese domestic market anyway. Those planes are simply way too small and not economical.

Oh well, another "order" for the airlines. As other have already said, at the current production rate (What's it at now? 8/year?) you won't see all the deliveries until something like 2040 anyway.
 
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Zoedyn
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Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Sat Aug 31, 2019 4:12 am

No doubt the whole ARJ21 project of COMAC is meant by the Chinese government as a tactical warm-up and skill-building exercise that must be undertaken at whatever financial costs in order to gain wholesale experience of designing, making, operating their own commercial jets, paving way on more sure feet for something they truly aim at: the C919 and beyond.

At this stage, their single top concern that overrides everything else has understandably been and will always be safety, safety and safety, which is also the most concerned issue for the Chinese flying public when it comes to flying with home-made jets, judging by the countless online comments seen on Chinese social media.

Also given the huge Chinese market and the diverse terrains of China, I surely believe the policy-backed ARJ21 is highly likely to be well received by increasingly more Chinese fliers AS LONG AS it manages to keep proving its safety and reliability without suffering any design-induced fatal accidents :fluffy:
 
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NameOmitted
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Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:29 pm

Given the high mounted engines, is there a possible gravel kit in this bird's future? Could it ultimately be a replacement for the 737-200s? It's a little small, but there are few other options out there.
 
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Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Sun Sep 01, 2019 12:25 am

Zoedyn wrote:
No doubt the whole ARJ21 project of COMAC is meant by the Chinese government as a tactical warm-up and skill-building exercise that must be undertaken at whatever financial costs in order to gain wholesale experience of designing, making, operating their own commercial jets, paving way on more sure feet for something they truly aim at: the C919 and beyond.

What skills do you build when you take 17 years to develop an out-of-date aircraft, how to do it wrong?

This isn't like Tesla cutting its teeth on break through technology so when they finally get it right they will dominate.

They are setting the bar very low, and celebrating after hitting that low target.

The only ones they sell to are a captive audience, and as you say, they will be in deep trouble if any safety issues arise.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Sun Sep 01, 2019 12:44 am

Revelation wrote:
What skills do you build when you take 17 years to develop an out-of-date aircraft, how to do it wrong?


They are learning the logistics of putting aircraft together. They are building a second, more automated line. It may still only get them to 40 frames a year, but if they don't need to make money on this round, who cares? They'll get the logistics down.

Then, they build a line for 400 a year.
 
AC77X
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Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Sun Sep 01, 2019 1:00 am

I have confidence in Comac. Yes, the Xiangfeng has its issues, but I think that the C919 and CR929 will perform well.
 
DWC
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Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Sun Sep 01, 2019 1:04 am

NameOmitted wrote:
Revelation wrote:
What skills do you build when you take 17 years to develop an out-of-date aircraft, how to do it wrong?

They are learning the logistics of putting aircraft together. They are building a second, more automated line. It may still only get them to 40 frames a year, but if they don't need to make money on this round, who cares? They'll get the logistics down.
Then, they build a line for 400 a year.

Correct. That is what they have done with other technologies, only that aviation is more visible.
The Long March rockets came in first, but then Japan & India also are space powers, i.e. seems it is way easier than commercial aircrafts.

What people miss is that China is only taking 17 years to learn all from scratch.
People also fail to notice that Russia cannot afford to play solo, let alone let a powerhouse next door develop its own industry : so they are teaming up with China for both commercial AND tactical reasons. Let's see in 2029 how the MC-21 & the 929 are doing, we may be in for some surprises.
 
DWC
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Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Sun Sep 01, 2019 1:21 am

All is political, it's not because AA or CO had a "gentleman's agreement" with Boeing that it's not political.
The Airbus FALs in the US & China are also political, see how that helped the A220 to DL & to gain more orders from China.

The MC-21 is a fine aircraft, technologically superior to the successful 30-year old A320 design.
But they have to prove themselves worthy in Russia before they can even set up an international campaign, so we have to wait. The MC-21 is expected to evolve nevertheless, Russia needs it more than it does the SSJ. I am aware Russia is fighting a tough political & commercial war, but I live in Asia & see how China is driving it in ways Japan never did. I have no idea if China will buy the MC-21 since they have their 919 to support (over 1000 in orders and options), but I expect the 929 to market better.

Back on topic, the ARJ21 is not so much a commercial endeavour as it is POLITICAL & INDUSTRIAL.
 
ewt340
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Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Sun Sep 01, 2019 2:28 am

Actually, it would be more surprising if none of them ordered the aircraft. We know they hold these CEOs on gunpoint when they forced to sign the deal. ;)
 
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c933103
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Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Mon Sep 30, 2019 6:16 pm

http://archive.is/Ja9nu
Anyone know what happened to Urumqi Air's order? Saw a rumor from a Chinese forum from back in August that claim they have rejected those ARJ21 that was supposed to be delivered to them
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lightsaber
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Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:44 pm

Unknown. I know enough on the external system design on the ARJ-21 to never step foot on one.
Winter is coming.
 
strfyr51
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Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Tue Oct 01, 2019 4:12 am

So? It appears the Chinese carriers are going to FLY the bugs out of them. And Possibly? Identify and fix all the design Problems before seeking FAA and EASA certification. While they aslo figure out HOW to support them with engineering,
 
oldannyboy
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Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:58 am

lightsaber wrote:
Unknown. I know enough on the external system design on the ARJ-21 to never step foot on one.


Uh. This is very interesting. Care to elaborate? I'd love to learn something about this mysterious bird....
Thanks
 
Wayfarer515
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Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Sun Feb 02, 2020 12:45 am

I think this news went pretty much unnoticed, new operator for the ARJ-21 began ops. Jianngxi Air:
http://www.ato.ru/content/kitayskiy-per ... =frs&pos=1

As for the fleet exploitation, I've been looking it is operating about 4-6 hours per day @chengdu airlines, and not in a regular way, pretty much what I would call a dry run operation.
 
Wayfarer515
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Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:49 am

First Air China's ARJ-21 rolled out: That livery is sooo 1970s on this plane:
https://m.facebook.com/InTheFlightMode/ ... 7818106186
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:55 am

Wayfarer515 wrote:
First Air China's ARJ-21 rolled out: That livery is sooo 1970s on this plane:
https://m.facebook.com/InTheFlightMode/ ... 7818106186


Livery is dated period, they really need a change.
 
Newark727
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Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:56 am

They should lean into it and add a black anti-glare panel in front of the cockpit windows. I think that'd look pretty good.
 
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Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Thu Jun 04, 2020 5:19 am

NameOmitted wrote:
Revelation wrote:
What skills do you build when you take 17 years to develop an out-of-date aircraft, how to do it wrong?


They are learning the logistics of putting aircraft together. They are building a second, more automated line. It may still only get them to 40 frames a year, but if they don't need to make money on this round, who cares? They'll get the logistics down.

Then, they build a line for 400 a year.


Development, production, documentation, certification, selecting suppliers, quality control, setting up a service and support structure,...
 
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Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:05 am

ikolkyo wrote:
Wayfarer515 wrote:
First Air China's ARJ-21 rolled out: That livery is sooo 1970s on this plane:
https://m.facebook.com/InTheFlightMode/ ... 7818106186


Livery is dated period, they really need a change.


That‘s all up to ones individual taste. I really like it and it is the best looking so far. To me, all those modernish liveries are a disgrace. Dake Delta and remember those TriStars in the 90ies. No way to make it better... same goes for CAAC/Air China, it fits the need quite well.

And yes, the black anti glare is missing a lot.
TU3/5,T20,IL8/6/W/9,I14,YK4/2,AN2/4,A26,A28,A38,A40,A81,SU9,L4T,L11,D1C,M11,M80/2/7,
AB4/6,318-321,313,332/3,342/3/5/6,712,703,722,732/3/4/5/G/8,741/L/2/3/4,752/3,763,
77E/W,J31,F50,F70,100,ATP,142/3,AR8/1,SF3,S20,D38,MIH,EM4,E75/90/95,AT7,DHT/3/4,CRJ/7/9
 
opticalilyushin
Posts: 789
Joined: Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:35 pm

Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:16 am

Ty134A wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
Wayfarer515 wrote:
First Air China's ARJ-21 rolled out: That livery is sooo 1970s on this plane:
https://m.facebook.com/InTheFlightMode/ ... 7818106186


Livery is dated period, they really need a change.


That‘s all up to ones individual taste. I really like it and it is the best looking so far. To me, all those modernish liveries are a disgrace. Dake Delta and remember those TriStars in the 90ies. No way to make it better... same goes for CAAC/Air China, it fits the need quite well.

And yes, the black anti glare is missing a lot.


I completely agree :) I think it looks quite nice
 
ewt340
Posts: 1274
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:25 am

With due respect but, If I'm part of CN3. I would rather order Comac C919 rather than ARJ21.

Seems a bit redundant.
 
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Polot
Posts: 10735
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:11 am

ewt340 wrote:
With due respect but, If I'm part of CN3. I would rather order Comac C919 rather than ARJ21.

Seems a bit redundant.

They don’t really have a choice in the matter.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 4583
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:26 am

Polot wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
With due respect but, If I'm part of CN3. I would rather order Comac C919 rather than ARJ21.

Seems a bit redundant.

They don’t really have a choice in the matter.


They also serve different roles, large size regional jet vs A320 sized narrowbody. The CN3 all have the C919 on order alongside these.
 
Wayfarer515
Posts: 810
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:56 pm

Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:34 pm

Flight hours have been picking up on this bird, soon enough they will say byebye to Boeing and Airbus, times are a changing like Bob Dylan said.
 
WorldFlier
Posts: 393
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2015 2:10 pm

Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:52 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Revelation wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
What else does time need to tell?

Nothing, it's just how things are done in the worker's paradise.

The ARJ-21 is entering service inferior to the E-275-190. I did some back of the envelope numbers and:
1. Higher cost per hour, including purchase cost, than the E2-190/A220-100. Much higher when maintenance and spare aircraft are included.
2. Poor fuel burn even versus an E175 from what little has been released.
3. Lower payload than E2/A220.
4. Poor range.
5. Not scope clause compliant. :duck:

Other than a "You shall buy" market, who would buy?

I cannot think of a single mission where used E-170/175 or cr9 doesn't have far better economics.

Lightsaber


Even the Superjet is better than the ARJ21...
 
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lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 20325
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:09 pm

WorldFlier wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Nothing, it's just how things are done in the worker's paradise.

The ARJ-21 is entering service inferior to the E-275-190. I did some back of the envelope numbers and:
1. Higher cost per hour, including purchase cost, than the E2-190/A220-100. Much higher when maintenance and spare aircraft are included.
2. Poor fuel burn even versus an E175 from what little has been released.
3. Lower payload than E2/A220.
4. Poor range.
5. Not scope clause compliant. :duck:

Other than a "You shall buy" market, who would buy?

I cannot think of a single mission where used E-170/175 or cr9 doesn't have far better economics.

Lightsaber


Even the Superjet is better than the ARJ21...

From what I can tell, you are right. Many vendors from the CRJ and ARJ refused to participate due to the mandated technology transfer.

This resulted in an incredibly unreliable airframe. China mandated a 50% reduction in engine external cooling and surprise, that impacted CF34-10 reliability, which GE is not responsible for as ICDs must be met...

But the the "you shall buy" markets will buy.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 4583
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:10 pm

WorldFlier wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Nothing, it's just how things are done in the worker's paradise.

The ARJ-21 is entering service inferior to the E-275-190. I did some back of the envelope numbers and:
1. Higher cost per hour, including purchase cost, than the E2-190/A220-100. Much higher when maintenance and spare aircraft are included.
2. Poor fuel burn even versus an E175 from what little has been released.
3. Lower payload than E2/A220.
4. Poor range.
5. Not scope clause compliant. :duck:

Other than a "You shall buy" market, who would buy?

I cannot think of a single mission where used E-170/175 or cr9 doesn't have far better economics.

Lightsaber


Even the Superjet is better than the ARJ21...


The Superjet is an excellent aircraft that suffered from external organisational problems. Saying that even it is better than the ARJ is like saying that even a 787 is better than a DC-10.

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