Page 2 of 3

Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:13 pm
by VSMUT
lightsaber wrote:
WorldFlier wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
The ARJ-21 is entering service inferior to the E-275-190. I did some back of the envelope numbers and:
1. Higher cost per hour, including purchase cost, than the E2-190/A220-100. Much higher when maintenance and spare aircraft are included.
2. Poor fuel burn even versus an E175 from what little has been released.
3. Lower payload than E2/A220.
4. Poor range.
5. Not scope clause compliant. :duck:

Other than a "You shall buy" market, who would buy?

I cannot think of a single mission where used E-170/175 or cr9 doesn't have far better economics.

Lightsaber


Even the Superjet is better than the ARJ21...

From what I can tell, you are right. Many vendors from the CRJ and ARJ refused to participate due to the mandated technology transfer.

This resulted in an incredibly unreliable airframe. China mandated a 50% reduction in engine external cooling and surprise, that impacted CF34-10 reliability, which GE is not responsible for as ICDs must be met...

But the the "you shall buy" markets will buy.

Lightsaber


Won't unreliability help boost the building of a support network? :duck: Building a support network is pretty much the final major value left in the project anyway...

Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 5:57 pm
by bhill
Zoedyn wrote:
https://m.weibo.cn/5120831098/4411067281646750

Per its SinaWeibo feed just now this evening Aug 30, COMAC has announced that each of CN3 has today signed agreement to buy 35 ARJ21s from the Chinese jet maker, representing a big order of 105 for the regional jet.

This is absolutely and definitely a huge “deal” for COMAC!



Yeahhhh......having a gun pointed at your head to buy shit with funny money is NOT a "Big Deal.." Pretty sure an RFP was not sent out....

Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2020 1:28 pm
by Wayfarer515
bhill wrote:
Zoedyn wrote:
https://m.weibo.cn/5120831098/4411067281646750

Per its SinaWeibo feed just now this evening Aug 30, COMAC has announced that each of CN3 has today signed agreement to buy 35 ARJ21s from the Chinese jet maker, representing a big order of 105 for the regional jet.

This is absolutely and definitely a huge “deal” for COMAC!



Yeahhhh......having a gun pointed at your head to buy shit with funny money is NOT a "Big Deal.." Pretty sure an RFP was not sent out....

At gunpoint or not, the birds are rolling out of Chinese factories, not USA, not Canadian, not European and not even Russian. The project is achieving its primary goal which is ending their dependancy on the West, and call me crazy but that is called a success most of the time. And yes, believe me China is in real need of a regional transport network, could have been CRJs but now they will be COMACs.

Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2020 2:01 pm
by AYVN
Remember this from Back to the Future?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1QcjsjjtRc
It does'n take for long until you can change Japan to China.
Trump might be out of Office soon, but trade war with Huawei and technology embargo twist seems something that China has desided to defend itself against in long term. Trade war might be real booster for China's aircraft industry,. It will take some years and some unnhappy CN3 carriers. But unhappy carriers is much cheaper than ordering same amount of planes to military and gather flight hours by flying them from airbase to airbase, I'd say gunpoint sales are quite cost effective if you have decided to make civilian aircraft industry to happen. And wait, soon all the best stuff is made in China

Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2020 2:29 pm
by c933103
Wayfarer515 wrote:
bhill wrote:
Zoedyn wrote:
https://m.weibo.cn/5120831098/4411067281646750

Per its SinaWeibo feed just now this evening Aug 30, COMAC has announced that each of CN3 has today signed agreement to buy 35 ARJ21s from the Chinese jet maker, representing a big order of 105 for the regional jet.

This is absolutely and definitely a huge “deal” for COMAC!



Yeahhhh......having a gun pointed at your head to buy shit with funny money is NOT a "Big Deal.." Pretty sure an RFP was not sent out....

At gunpoint or not, the birds are rolling out of Chinese factories, not USA, not Canadian, not European and not even Russian. The project is achieving its primary goal which is ending their dependancy on the West, and call me crazy but that is called a success most of the time. And yes, believe me China is in real need of a regional transport network, could have been CRJs but now they will be COMACs.

Regional transport network .... where's the demand? Regional Chinese area are far from affluent and most of them have very linited connection with anything other than the nearest main city. Those area also have very limited amount of businesses or anything happening

Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2020 8:02 pm
by dcajet
Wayfarer515 wrote:
Flight hours have been picking up on this bird, soon enough they will say byebye to Boeing and Airbus, times are a changing like Bob Dylan said.


Wishful thinking... At best, these planes will be flying with Chinese airlines only. Would that be the same bye bye the Russians said to Airbus & Boeing?

Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2020 5:16 am
by sincx
lightsaber wrote:
From what I can tell, you are right. Many vendors from the CRJ and ARJ refused to participate due to the mandated technology transfer.

This resulted in an incredibly unreliable airframe. China mandated a 50% reduction in engine external cooling and surprise, that impacted CF34-10 reliability, which GE is not responsible for as ICDs must be met...

But the the "you shall buy" markets will buy.

Lightsaber


The primary objective of the ARJ-21, the C919, and COMAC in general isn't cost-efficiency, reliability, or "how good the plane is." Their primary objective is to ensure that the United States government cannot unilaterally eliminate the PRC's commercial aviation industry through sanctions in the upcoming new cold war. It's far better to have non-internationally-competitive jets, than for the US government's "entity list" to prevent you from having any jets at all.

Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:15 am
by Blerg
I don't think it's fair to compare them to models or manufacturers that have been in business for many decades. China is entering the game which is dominated by basically a few players and there is definitely room for additional competition. I think in about ten years from now they will improve and perfect this model like they have done with the rest of the things they produce. I mean, the whole MAX debacle is much more embarrassing than all this because it came from a company that has been making planes for a century now.

Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:54 am
by Antaras
Those COMAC airframes are literally "regional jets" as they won't be acquired by any carrier out of China...

Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2020 11:40 am
by VSMUT
Antaras wrote:
Those COMAC airframes are literally "regional jets" as they won't be acquired by any carrier out of China...


That's probably not likely. It has already been reported that they sold a few to airlines in Laos, Congo and Indonesia. It isn't difficult to imagine that they will push airlines and governments in poor client states to accept them or hand them out as aid. Not exactly a roaring sign of success, but an export is export.

Regardless of how trashy the MA60 was, as of 2018 it was in use or on order by airlines in 14 different countries and 8 non-Chinese air forces.

Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 3:49 am
by Wayfarer515
Full steam ahead...three more aircraft delivered at once.

http://www.ato.ru/content/korporaciya-c ... =frs&pos=1

Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 4:14 am
by VirginFlyer
Wayfarer515 wrote:
First Air China's ARJ-21 rolled out: That livery is sooo 1970s on this plane:
https://m.facebook.com/InTheFlightMode/ ... 7818106186

After this, the first one for China Southern has now also made an appearance: https://www.planespotters.net/photo/108 ... -arj21-700

V/F

Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 9:38 am
by workhorse
dcajet wrote:
Wayfarer515 wrote:
Flight hours have been picking up on this bird, soon enough they will say byebye to Boeing and Airbus, times are a changing like Bob Dylan said.


Wishful thinking... At best, these planes will be flying with Chinese airlines only. Would that be the same bye bye the Russians said to Airbus & Boeing?


I am not sure what exactly do you mean. If by "the Russians" you mean "Russian Federation" then it's obviously not true. There are plenty of Airbus and even Boeing airplanes purchased by airlines from the Russian Federation.

If you mean "Soviet Union" then it's still not exactly correct because there was no Airbus during the biggest part of the Soviet period. It would rather be "bye bye to Douglas, Boeing, Aérospatiale, Hawker Siddeley, Lockheed etc".

And it made perfect sense. Take, for example, the Il-62. Was it less efficient, less performant and even, from an engineering standpoint, somewhat less "safe" (because of its side-by-side engines) than the B707 and the DC-8? Yes it was. However, in the context where the USA could cut support for these planes any time, it was indeed a question of vital importance to have an airplane capable to cross the country non-stop that wouldn't be subject to this kind of political risks.

The ARJ21 and the C919 are far from this. They both rely on suppliers from the US and their satellites for key functions. So as of today, the US is just as capable to ground the C919 as the B737. But they are necessary steps on the path to build an independent civil aviation industry. It's a long path. Either you sit down and say "it's too difficult, let's just surrender" or you try to do something.

Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 10:27 am
by VSMUT
VirginFlyer wrote:
Wayfarer515 wrote:
First Air China's ARJ-21 rolled out: That livery is sooo 1970s on this plane:
https://m.facebook.com/InTheFlightMode/ ... 7818106186

After this, the first one for China Southern has now also made an appearance: https://www.planespotters.net/photo/108 ... -arj21-700

V/F


It's great to see the latest offspring of the MD-80/MD-90 family back at China Southern :duck:

Image

Image

Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 4:30 pm
by JeremyXWB
slightly off topic here, but COMAC has recently received an order for 100 planes from China Express Airlines. The exact breakdown of the order is not known though

https://www.flightglobal.com/aerospace/ ... 91.article

Air China, China Eastern, China Southern Take Delivery Of ARJ21

Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:48 am
by Ishrion
Today, COMAC is delivering the ARJ21 to Air China, China Eastern Airlines, and China Southern Airlines.

China Eastern Airlines created a new subsidiary, One Two Three Airlines (OTT), just for the COMAC aircraft.

This will double the amount of ARJ21 operators from three to six.

Each of these three airlines have 35 of the aircraft on order.

Image

Image

Image

https://twitter.com/ChinaAvReview/statu ... 2690329600

Re: Air China, China Eastern, China Southern Take Delivery Of ARJ21

Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:20 am
by DDR
Love the T-tail, but not sure why they went with rear doors instead of over wing exits.

Re: Air China, China Eastern, China Southern Take Delivery Of ARJ21

Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:04 am
by AC77X
OTT Airlines' livery looks better than China Eastern's, unsurprisingly.

I think that they all look great.

Re: Air China, China Eastern, China Southern Take Delivery Of ARJ21

Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:10 am
by qf789
All 3 have now departed on their delivery flights

Image

Image

Image

https://twitter.com/FATIIIAviation/stat ... 92038?s=20

Re: Air China, China Eastern, China Southern Take Delivery Of ARJ21

Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:22 am
by bkmbr
I kind like the uniqueness of the old China Eastern, the China Southern and the Air China liveries to be honest.To me they feel very late 80's/early 90's and far from the "eurowhite pandemic" that Pan Am and Lufthansa created. The whole eurowhite livery makes sense on lufthansa, but in many companies appears to me they were just lazy. Aer Lingus new livery is one for example that looks more like a lazy redesign than anything else.

Re: Air China, China Eastern, China Southern Take Delivery Of ARJ21

Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:31 am
by Ziyulu
I think MU is smart to put it in a different brand so if there is an accident, their safety image is not affected.

Re: Air China, China Eastern, China Southern Take Delivery Of ARJ21

Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:40 am
by Revelation
Ziyulu wrote:
I think MU is smart to put it in a different brand so if there is an accident, their safety image is not affected.

As of now their safety record is better than the Boeing MAX, sigh.

Re: Air China, China Eastern, China Southern Take Delivery Of ARJ21

Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:40 am
by smi0006
Ziyulu wrote:
I think MU is smart to put it in a different brand so if there is an accident, their safety image is not affected.


I wouldn’t describe that as smart. If they are that concerned about the risk of an accident to create a separate brand - they really shouldn’t be flying the aircraft at all. In saying that, what is the logic behind a separate subsidiary? Chinese carriers seem to love to carve everything up between new brands, one for each city and region!

Good looking aircraft. Any cabin images at all?

Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:38 am
by TWA772LR
AYVN wrote:
Remember this from Back to the Future?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1QcjsjjtRc
It does'n take for long until you can change Japan to China.
Trump might be out of Office soon, but trade war with Huawei and technology embargo twist seems something that China has desided to defend itself against in long term. Trade war might be real booster for China's aircraft industry,. It will take some years and some unnhappy CN3 carriers. But unhappy carriers is much cheaper than ordering same amount of planes to military and gather flight hours by flying them from airbase to airbase, I'd say gunpoint sales are quite cost effective if you have decided to make civilian aircraft industry to happen. And wait, soon all the best stuff is made in China

Even Doc Brown would admit "Made in Japan" is better than "Made in China".

FWIW, at least the MRJ has non-forced order from US airlines.

Re: Air China, China Eastern, China Southern Take Delivery Of ARJ21

Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:49 am
by Phosphorus
smi0006 wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
I think MU is smart to put it in a different brand so if there is an accident, their safety image is not affected.


I wouldn’t describe that as smart. If they are that concerned about the risk of an accident to create a separate brand - they really shouldn’t be flying the aircraft at all. In saying that, what is the logic behind a separate subsidiary? Chinese carriers seem to love to carve everything up between new brands, one for each city and region!

Good looking aircraft. Any cabin images at all?


Are you familiar with a concept of "no choice in the matter"?

Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:01 am
by qf789
Cabin layout for China Southern - 90 seats in a 2-3 configuration

Image

https://twitter.com/FATIIIAviation/stat ... 19296?s=20

Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:02 am
by qf789
A couple of photos of the cockpit layout

Image

Image

https://twitter.com/FATIIIAviation/stat ... 81441?s=20

Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:37 am
by eamondzhang
Well it's not only China Eastern who created a subsidiary for the plane - Air China and China Southern did the same. If you look closely you'll realise China Southern's name (both in Mandarin and English) are actually on a sticker; I bet the title beneath the sticker will be Xiong'an Airlines (an airline created by CZ for ARJ21). Air China also had Beijing Airlines turned into a Part-121 operator for the birds.

My source told me that they took the planes for now because of the pressure from National Development and Reform Commission.

Michael

Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:09 am
by PepeTheFrog
eamondzhang wrote:
My source told me that they took the planes for now because of the pressure from National Development and Reform Commission.

Michael


So the big 3 are stuck with an aircraft they don't really want.

Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:15 am
by FluidFlow
Thanks qf789 for the pictures.

The parking break is perfectly located for a good drift on a wet runway.

Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:29 am
by JeremyXWB
eamondzhang wrote:
Well it's not only China Eastern who created a subsidiary for the plane - Air China and China Southern did the same. If you look closely you'll realise China Southern's name (both in Mandarin and English) are actually on a sticker; I bet the title beneath the sticker will be Xiong'an Airlines (an airline created by CZ for ARJ21). Air China also had Beijing Airlines turned into a Part-121 operator for the birds.


Just curious, I remember reading on old thread that since Xiong'an Airlines is essentially set up as a "paper airline" for CZ (similar to Shantou Airlines, Zhuhai Airlines & Guizhou Airlines), wouldn't the ARJs eventually have the same CZ livery anyway even if they've transferred to Xiong'an, like the 3 other aforementioned subsidiaries?

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1396195

I don't mind being corrected though

Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:09 pm
by eamondzhang
PepeTheFrog wrote:
eamondzhang wrote:
My source told me that they took the planes for now because of the pressure from National Development and Reform Commission.

Michael


So the big 3 are stuck with an aircraft they don't really want.

Well let's be very honest, this is politically driven from day 1 in any case.

Michael

Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:29 pm
by eamondzhang
JeremyXWB wrote:
eamondzhang wrote:
Well it's not only China Eastern who created a subsidiary for the plane - Air China and China Southern did the same. If you look closely you'll realise China Southern's name (both in Mandarin and English) are actually on a sticker; I bet the title beneath the sticker will be Xiong'an Airlines (an airline created by CZ for ARJ21). Air China also had Beijing Airlines turned into a Part-121 operator for the birds.


Just curious, I remember reading on old thread that since Xiong'an Airlines is essentially set up as a "paper airline" for CZ (similar to Shantou Airlines, Zhuhai Airlines & Guizhou Airlines), wouldn't the ARJs eventually have the same CZ livery anyway even if they've transferred to Xiong'an, like the 3 other aforementioned subsidiaries?

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1396195

I don't mind being corrected though

Well honestly no one knows - CZ also formed another subsidiary (0Q) with their own code, livery and such, although they mostly sell under CZ code.

However given this apparence that first CZ's bird has sticker over its name - can only assume in this case it's a subsidiary with their own title only (similar to Air China Inner Mongolia or Beijing Airlines)

Michael

Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:37 pm
by lightsaber
VSMUT wrote:
Antaras wrote:
Those COMAC airframes are literally "regional jets" as they won't be acquired by any carrier out of China...


That's probably not likely. It has already been reported that they sold a few to airlines in Laos, Congo and Indonesia. It isn't difficult to imagine that they will push airlines and governments in poor client states to accept them or hand them out as aid. Not exactly a roaring sign of success, but an export is export.

Regardless of how trashy the MA60 was, as of 2018 it was in use or on order by airlines in 14 different countries and 8 non-Chinese air forces.

Not one MA60 made it to the HMV. The MA-600 also has a very bad reputation.

There will be ARJ-21 exports. I hope GE sells each engine at a profit as I do not expect durable enough airframes to last long enough for overhauls.

This program is a prestige program. Setting up a parts distribution system only helps if the aircraft utilization meets norms.

Does anyone know the ARJ-21 utilization? At this point, it should be extreamly high.

Lightsaber

Re: Air China, China Eastern, China Southern Take Delivery Of ARJ21

Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:10 pm
by alberchico
smi0006 wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
I think MU is smart to put it in a different brand so if there is an accident, their safety image is not affected.


I wouldn’t describe that as smart. If they are that concerned about the risk of an accident to create a separate brand - they really shouldn’t be flying the aircraft at all. In saying that, what is the logic behind a separate subsidiary? Chinese carriers seem to love to carve everything up between new brands, one for each city and region!

Good looking aircraft. Any cabin images at all?


They would not allow Air China to take delivery if there were any nagging concerns about safety. Part of the reason entry into service took so long is because the national regulatory body was very conservative when it came to testing and wanted to be sure that any potential safety concerns were addressed. So even thought these aircraft are hopelessly uneconomical, I don't think they are flying deathtraps.

Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:37 pm
by Ziyulu
Just when we're about to say goodbye to T tails and rear mounted engines, China develops these planes. Maybe AA can order a few to replace its MD-80s.

Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:16 pm
by UA444
Boeing should get the tooling back so they can build a real 717 derivative

Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:28 pm
by VSMUT
UA444 wrote:
Boeing should get the tooling back so they can build a real 717 derivative


It would only be the fuselages. The wings are new.

Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:19 pm
by PepeTheFrog
lightsaber wrote:
There will be ARJ-21 exports. I hope GE sells each engine at a profit as I do not expect durable enough airframes to last long enough for overhauls.


Without FAA certification this aircraft won't go far.

Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:00 pm
by MEA-707
lightsaber wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Antaras wrote:
Those COMAC airframes are literally "regional jets" as they won't be acquired by any carrier out of China...


Regardless of how trashy the MA60 was, as of 2018 it was in use or on order by airlines in 14 different countries and 8 non-Chinese air forces.

Not one MA60 made it to the HMV. The MA-600 also has a very bad reputation.

Lightsaber


What does HMV mean. I googled it and His Masters voice or High Maintenance Va***a isn't really helpful. You mean the big 3 airlines in China, or any western airline?

Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:05 pm
by bkmbr
PepeTheFrog wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
There will be ARJ-21 exports. I hope GE sells each engine at a profit as I do not expect durable enough airframes to last long enough for overhauls.


Without FAA certification this aircraft won't go far.


I don't think the Chinese are worried about this, the internal Chinese market alone will be able to provide a good number of orders for the model, specially now that the Chinese government will push hard for the companies (since most of them are state owned to some extent) to replace western planes. I would even say that the government's intention with the ARJ-21 was never to make a profit or a huge amount of units produced, much of the learning in the ARJ-21 was useful in the design of the C-919, which will be the focus exports in a second moment, and as the largest market for the 737 max being China now, I imagine that pressure for the FAA to certify the C-919 in exchange for the 737max recertification will end up serving as a bargaining chip to the Chinese.

Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:54 pm
by VSMUT
MEA-707 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
VSMUT wrote:

Regardless of how trashy the MA60 was, as of 2018 it was in use or on order by airlines in 14 different countries and 8 non-Chinese air forces.

Not one MA60 made it to the HMV. The MA-600 also has a very bad reputation.

Lightsaber


What does HMV mean. I googled it and His Masters voice or High Maintenance Va***a isn't really helpful. You mean the big 3 airlines in China, or any western airline?


My first result on Google was Hentai Montage Video. I guess Lightsaber is mangasexual or something.

Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:17 pm
by Newark727
VSMUT wrote:
MEA-707 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Not one MA60 made it to the HMV. The MA-600 also has a very bad reputation.

Lightsaber


What does HMV mean. I googled it and His Masters voice or High Maintenance Va***a isn't really helpful. You mean the big 3 airlines in China, or any western airline?


My first result on Google was Hentai Montage Video. I guess Lightsaber is mangasexual or something.


You know, they say Google tailors its results to your preferences... :duck:

Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:32 am
by JeremyB
MEA-707 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
VSMUT wrote:

Regardless of how trashy the MA60 was, as of 2018 it was in use or on order by airlines in 14 different countries and 8 non-Chinese air forces.

Not one MA60 made it to the HMV. The MA-600 also has a very bad reputation.

Lightsaber


What does HMV mean. I googled it and His Masters voice or High Maintenance Va***a isn't really helpful. You mean the big 3 airlines in China, or any western airline?


Not sure if you already found it, but it stands for Heavy Maintenance Visit

Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:50 am
by jeffrey0032j
VSMUT wrote:
UA444 wrote:
Boeing should get the tooling back so they can build a real 717 derivative


It would only be the fuselages. The wings are new.

The wings were designed by Antonov.

Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:44 am
by VSMUT
JeremyB wrote:
MEA-707 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Not one MA60 made it to the HMV. The MA-600 also has a very bad reputation.

Lightsaber


What does HMV mean. I googled it and His Masters voice or High Maintenance Va***a isn't really helpful. You mean the big 3 airlines in China, or any western airline?


Not sure if you already found it, but it stands for Heavy Maintenance Visit


How does Lightsaber (who as far as I know is an American) know if any MA-60s never made it to a heavy maintenance check? Looking down through the list of operators, that' a lot of typically secretive third world countries.

Re: Air China, China Eastern, China Southern Take Delivery Of ARJ21

Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:27 am
by oldannyboy
smi0006 wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
I think MU is smart to put it in a different brand so if there is an accident, their safety image is not affected.


I wouldn’t describe that as smart. If they are that concerned about the risk of an accident to create a separate brand - they really shouldn’t be flying the aircraft at all. In saying that, what is the logic behind a separate subsidiary? Chinese carriers seem to love to carve everything up between new brands, one for each city and region!

Good looking aircraft. Any cabin images at all?


Don't quote me on this, but my take is that the jet is not "unsafe" per-se, it's probably just [a lot] less dependable and reliable than most other models, and suffers greatly from teething issues. I don't see why through time it could not attain a decent dispatch reliability and fewer maintenance man hours per flown hours.
Regardless, I love the unique DC-9esque sleek design, and I for one hope this aircraft gets around a bit. It offers some MUCH NEEDED diversity in our otherwise extremely boring skies...

Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:04 pm
by lightsaber
VSMUT wrote:
JeremyB wrote:
MEA-707 wrote:

What does HMV mean. I googled it and His Masters voice or High Maintenance Va***a isn't really helpful. You mean the big 3 airlines in China, or any western airline?


Not sure if you already found it, but it stands for Heavy Maintenance Visit


How does Lightsaber (who as far as I know is an American) know if any MA-60s never made it to a heavy maintenance check? Looking down through the list of operators, that' a lot of typically secretive third world countries.

Yes, I am an American. I work with stress engineers, many trained at Douglas. What has been found is they are all parked and the stress engineers were obsessing over why.

I personally worked on a bid for the ARJ-21 where cooling for engine parts had arbitrarily been cut in half to reduce fuel burn. I advised a no bid.

But who supplied the engines for the MA-60. Hmmm... Or the propellers? You really cannot produce an aircraft without Western content today.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xian_MA60

The engines go through overhaul prior to the aircraft heavy maintenance visit. If the engines and propellers cancel their service contracts...

Also, look at how all the early operators are storing ir scrapping the MA-60. The MA-600 was introduced to stop the cracking problem, at least that is what the stress engineers I personally know who were hired to fix the problem claim.

I work in an industry with thousands of contractors who I work with, they go off to another project, then I hire them back when needed. I have worked with over 1,400 contractors in my career. Since they want to be rehired, we occasionally meet up to chat where they ask for potential jobs and I chat aircraft design.

Since I am specialized in solving issues found in testing, I tend to interact with those people who are good at solving issues who are in demand (and command a pay bonus).

I also came out if flight test (I have kids, so I can no longer work those hours), so I know a lot of test pilots who like to drink and tell stories.

So unless the Western parts are ripped out, I or friends of mine have access to the maintenance data bases.

I also have friends at the component vendors including Moog and Meggitt (Aircraft valve vendors). Every aircraft ever built has at least one custom valve in it, usually built by the above two or Woodward (who isn't in Southern California, where I live), so when I go to a valve vendor, I always ask for a tour.

I also used to design aircraft regulators and bearings. So I have contacts in that small community.

When a heavy maintenance visit (HMV) is performed, it isn't just the maintenance provider (MRO) that is involved. All of the vendors are contacted for spare parts. By the HMV, everything that needs to be rebuilt must be rebuilt (excluding gear and engines, they work on their own cycles). So the vendors get parts in to rebuild.

As a turboprop part might cost $500 to rebuild or $1500 new, the vendors know how many spares are out there and if they have demand for rebuilds.

If the parts are not being rebuilt, aircraft are not undergoing HMVs.

So yes, I'm an American living where perhaps a quarter of the little vendors are located (SoCal) and Vendors always put up a poster for every aircraft they have parts on (to help sell future parts). So I ask.

So my vendors complain the MA-60 isn't getting parts rebuilt (EIS 2000, so 3 years past due), stress engineers tell me they were hired to fix a problem and performing examinations on those aircraft to try to make them fly again, and big vendors not being paid for overhauls...

I'm confident in my prior statements.
It is how I know the status of the MD-80/90 markets too.

Now trying to determine say a CFM-56 aircraft is doing is impossible for me as the shops are so overloaded when those parts are going through overhaul that I am politely asked to show up after they are done and the leads are so numb after overhauling so many parts, they cannot tell me DC-8, KC-135 vs. 737NG vs. A320 as it was just a flood of parts (and overtime). But all low production items, I get quite the earful when I go to a vendor, I particular the parts I designed.

So make no mistake, I can tell small batch aircraft utilization by frequency of overhauls. Now, the ARJ-21 is too new for a HMV, but eventually I'll find out if any are parked by the demand for component overhauls or if my contractors are hired (mind you, a very lagging indicator).

Lightsaber

Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:01 pm
by zakuivcustom
Regarding the Xian MA-60 - it's the epitome of "Chinese manufactured junk", period. Ask Lao Airlines, for example, who basically went to ATR as their Xian MA-60 are junk.

Back to ARJ - the planes definitely look like a 717 in CA and CZ livery :).

Re: CN3 order 105 ARJ21s from COMAC

Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:23 am
by Wayfarer515
zakuivcustom wrote:
Regarding the Xian MA-60 - it's the epitome of "Chinese manufactured junk", period. Ask Lao Airlines, for example, who basically went to ATR as their Xian MA-60 are junk.

Back to ARJ - the planes definitely look like a 717 in CA and CZ livery :).


Regarding the 737/8 MAX - it's the epitome of "American manufactured junk", period. Ask the 300 lives that flying coffin took away from this planet.

You see? Junk is not only manufactured in China. I don't remember the MA-60 manufacturer murdering anyone just like the Boeing greed machine did, too bad they are not based in China or Iran, or they would face the death penalty which is what they deserve, and not a multimillion dollar retirement.