Dominion301
Posts: 2258
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: Air Canada fined for not using French language

Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:14 pm

workhorse wrote:
Why do we never hear about such incidents in Switzerland and on LX? They have FOUR official languages and yet somehow get around it.


It’s not hard when your only domestic destinations are ZHR, GVA and LUG, and only two routes in your entire domestic network need official language bilingual services. Obviously in Europe, English is also needed.

Compare that with AC where all routes out of YUL, YOW, YQM, YTS, YSB plus three routes out of YQB involve needing bilingual services. So two routes affected vs dozens.
 
User avatar
N717TW
Posts: 540
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2016 9:24 pm

Re: Air Canada fined for not using French language

Mon Sep 02, 2019 4:01 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
IAHWorldflyer wrote:
I honestly don't remember the seatbelt buckles on Air France having the word for lift in French.


France French has a lot of English loan words like parking and stop that aren’t used in Canadian French...which itself does have English loan words that largely differ from France. Anglophones, whether they know it or not, have pillaged at least 7,000 French words into the highly parasitic English language. Just think about that the next time you hop into a chic automobile or make a reservation. :spin:


The Economist (newsmagazine from UK) did a story a few years back on the English/French thing and at the time estimated at nearly 1/3 of all words in the English language are French or French derivatives. So more than "a la mode" or "Soup du jour" to how boeuf became beef. Porc/Pork, etc. Cinema, Auto, and so on.

As to Quebec: I don't get their French. I can't for the life of me understand how "mon blonde" is a girlfriend. What happens when "mon blonde es une brune?"
 
ExMilitaryEng
Posts: 557
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 7:12 pm

Re: Air Canada fined for not using French language

Mon Sep 02, 2019 4:29 pm

BTW, it's not "mon blonde", but rather "ma blonde" ;-)

It definitely means girlfriend, nothing else. The "blonde" meaning (as hair color) must has been evacuated for several decades.

In France, they are even better; they often replace the word "femme" with "mef" (pronounced "meuf").
Last edited by ExMilitaryEng on Mon Sep 02, 2019 4:35 pm, edited 4 times in total.
 
bluefrog
Posts: 43
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:22 am

Re: Air Canada fined for not using French languag0q

Mon Sep 02, 2019 4:33 pm

747WanSui wrote:
Remember that when AC acquired CP in 1999-2000, they had to teach many CP employees how to speak French. Thus, it is definitely not surprising that AC got in trouble for not using French when requested.

In terms of the linguistic situation in Canada, I heard that in Quebec, less than half of the population there know how to speak English, while in other parts of Canada, less than 10% of the population know how to speak French. Thus, it would definitely not be surprising to find people who can speak French but not English, especially in rural Quebec.

i was born in england with a french dad moved to france 30 years ago i know some quebecois from deep in the back country who only speak "french" i don't understand a word they say !! LOL
 
queb
Posts: 1014
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 3:10 am

Re: Air Canada fined for not using French language

Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:42 pm

N717TW wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
IAHWorldflyer wrote:
As to Quebec: I don't get their French. I can't for the life of me understand how "mon blonde" is a girlfriend. What happens when "mon blonde es une brune?"


not "mon" but "ma" for female :D

and "ma blonde" expression come from a 17th century song "Au près de ma blonde"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aupr%C3%A8s_de_ma_blonde
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 8511
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Air Canada fined for not using French language

Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:04 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
workhorse wrote:
Why do we never hear about such incidents in Switzerland and on LX? They have FOUR official languages and yet somehow get around it.


It’s not hard when your only domestic destinations are ZHR, GVA and LUG, and only two routes in your entire domestic network need official language bilingual services. Obviously in Europe, English is also needed.


The main point in Swiss are not the few destinations, but that most people are speaking a second, many a third or fourth language. And why the claim that an F/A has to speak English anyway? I understand it for the pilot, but an F/A has to communicate with the passengers and the Swiss speak German, Italian, French and a few Romansh, all of them official languages.

Dominion301 wrote:
Compare that with AC where all routes out of YUL, YOW, YQM, YTS, YSB plus three routes out of YQB involve needing bilingual services. So two routes affected vs dozens.


It should be no trouble to have one French speaker on any airplane at AC. If you find not enough bilingual persons, just pay more to the persons speaking both English and French and people will learn the second language.

Their are many smaller countries, where it is a basic part of the education to learn several languages in school. Here in Iceland the minimum is two foreign languages for basic 10 year education, when you do high school it is three.
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 6323
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

Re: Air Canada fined for not using French language

Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:19 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
It should be no trouble to have one French speaker on any airplane at AC. If you find not enough bilingual persons, just pay more to the persons speaking both English and French and people will learn the second language.


EVERY Air Canada flight has at least one bilingual flight attendant. Offering services in both official languages is not the problem here.

The problem cited by this couple was font size of the EXIT signs on some older aircraft (newer aircraft use symbols) and the LIFT notation on some seat belt buckles. (most have nothing noted).

The “7 Up incident” was mentioned above as it was relevant that it was the same couple. But that incident was on a Jazz flight which does not fall under the Air Canada Public Participation Act. They were using a Quebec transportation law. The same law incidentally they use to harass VIA Rail and Greyhound Bus Lines.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
tofur
Posts: 78
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2016 11:51 pm

Re: Air Canada fined for not using French language

Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:32 pm

[quote="mjoelnir"]

It should be no trouble to have one French speaker on any airplane at AC. If you find not enough bilingual persons, just pay more to the persons speaking both English and French and people will learn the second language.

Actually, every mainline Air Canada is blocked or staffed with a French speaker. Narrowbody flights have at least one, widebody flights have at least two.
 
runway23
Posts: 2284
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:12 am

Re: Air Canada fined for not using French language

Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:31 am

mjoelnir wrote:
The main point in Swiss are not the few destinations, but that most people are speaking a second, many a third or fourth language. And why the claim that an F/A has to speak English anyway? I understand it for the pilot, but an F/A has to communicate with the passengers and the Swiss speak German, Italian, French and a few Romansh, all of them official languages.


I think you need to first of all do your search and learn how both Switzerland and Canada work.

In Canada it's a federal requirement that federal services be provided in both languages and indeed someone who is traveling say in Vancouver has a federal right to be served in French. Federal services are a lot more predominant in Canada than Switzerland.

In Switzerland federal tasks are pretty much mostly delegated to local cantons (states) that have no requirement to offer these services in any other language than the one which is official in that specific canton. A foreign person who applies to become Swiss in Geneva cannot do so unless they speak French. They can speak fluent German that won't make a difference. In Canada you need to speak one of the two languages.

Overall there's a much stronger language divide (or lack of integration) in Switzerland than Canada. One actively promotes both official languages the other doesn't. I also guarantee you that there some but far from the majority of people who speak 2+ official languages. The new generation will speak German or French + English. The main exception seems to now be Ticino where Italian, German, French and English are still all taught at school.

Besides, if you fly LX for example from GVA there's a much higher probability you end up on someone who speaks Portuguese or Spanish than German. And at least in Switzerland, you cannot be a flight attendant if you don't speak English.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 8511
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Air Canada fined for not using French language

Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:17 pm

runway23 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
The main point in Swiss are not the few destinations, but that most people are speaking a second, many a third or fourth language. And why the claim that an F/A has to speak English anyway? I understand it for the pilot, but an F/A has to communicate with the passengers and the Swiss speak German, Italian, French and a few Romansh, all of them official languages.


I think you need to first of all do your search and learn how both Switzerland and Canada work.

In Canada it's a federal requirement that federal services be provided in both languages and indeed someone who is traveling say in Vancouver has a federal right to be served in French. Federal services are a lot more predominant in Canada than Switzerland.

In Switzerland federal tasks are pretty much mostly delegated to local cantons (states) that have no requirement to offer these services in any other language than the one which is official in that specific canton. A foreign person who applies to become Swiss in Geneva cannot do so unless they speak French. They can speak fluent German that won't make a difference. In Canada you need to speak one of the two languages.

Overall there's a much stronger language divide (or lack of integration) in Switzerland than Canada. One actively promotes both official languages the other doesn't. I also guarantee you that there some but far from the majority of people who speak 2+ official languages. The new generation will speak German or French + English. The main exception seems to now be Ticino where Italian, German, French and English are still all taught at school.

Besides, if you fly LX for example from GVA there's a much higher probability you end up on someone who speaks Portuguese or Spanish than German. And at least in Switzerland, you cannot be a flight attendant if you don't speak English.


I think you should read your post and think about it. My claim was that most Swiss citizen speak at least two, often three or four languages. My claim was not that most Swiss speak 2+ of the official languages.

First, every Swiss compulsory/primary school teaches a second language. There is a difference between cantons what that second language is, English or a second of the official languages of Swiss. In all French cantons the second language is German.
Second, most Swiss compulsory/primary schools teach a third language, the exception being Thurgau and I think Nidwalden. That makes most Swiss citizen speakers of 3 languages.

Yes I have not exclude that the second or third language in a Swiss primary school could be English.

When we get to secondary schools, even Thurgau and Nidwalden include the second (or third) official languages and English.
 
User avatar
lesfalls
Posts: 3268
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Air Canada fined for not using French language

Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:48 pm

cirrusdragoon wrote:
workhorse wrote:
Why do we never hear about such incidents in Switzerland and on LX? They have FOUR official languages and yet somehow get around it.


exactly!

You are mistaken. They only care about the french and german parts. On their LUG-ZRH flight for example there is no italian speaking crew as it was always operated by OS. In addition Switzerlands official language is only spoken in a handful of towns. Even swiss german/german is barely spoken at the GVA base while ZRH has staff who do speak french.
Lufthansa: Einfach ein bisschen mehr.
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 6075
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

Re: Air Canada fined for not using French language

Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:51 pm

steveinbc wrote:
I know it's easy to mock these guys. But there's an official language act that essentially states that if you're a natural French speaker then you should have equal access to services in your language.

How far do you get (as a tourist) with English in Francophone Canada? Not very far.
 
silentbob
Posts: 1578
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:26 pm

Re: Air Canada fined for not using French language

Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:32 am

ExMilitaryEng wrote:
silentbob wrote:
ExMilitaryEng wrote:
Before someone brings that one up, the couple are from Ontario, not from Québec...

They're Francophones that live in the Ottawa area, Quebec is right across the river. Interesting note that the judge in the case was also a Francophone.


While we do have our own fair share of morons in Quebec, franco Ontarians are very different from Québécois - even when living just a few km from Quebec.

They vote differently, they identify themself as Canadians (which is ok, dont get me wrong here :biggrin: ), they are massively opposed to Quebec's Bill 101 etc. They are the one that push for bilangualism in Canada - while Québécois not so much. Quebecois only wants the ability to live, work, prosper and have fun at home (QC) - in french.

So don't associate those franco Ontarians with Quebecois; we are two very different groups with different thinking paterns.

(I work in Ottawa with those francos...)

I certainly didn't intend to slur all of those folks in your beautiful city. I spent the better part of a decade working with a lot of French Canadians (in and out of Quebec) in a sporting goods industry and I'm sure that isn't reflective of the population as a whole. I'm sure we would agree on a lot more than not about it overall. My condolences on the Senators this season, I don't think this is the year they turn it around.
 
hz747300
Posts: 2373
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:38 pm

Re: Air Canada fined for not using French language

Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:29 am

CarlosSi wrote:
I mean surely most people who speak French in Canada are bilingual, no?


Depends. In Montreal, I would say yes. In Quebec City, I'd say no. My wife's family is partly French Canadian. At the funeral of her grandmother, we met a handful of cousins who did not speak much more English than hello and thank you. About the same amount of French I can speak, haha. Oh well, chacon a son gout...

This "couple" seems more like undercover shoppers checking the Francophone-ness of businesses subject to the language equality law.
Keep on truckin'...
 
RDUDDJI
Posts: 2103
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 4:42 am

Re: Air Canada fined for not using French language

Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:21 pm

DWC wrote:
English speakers should learn another language, the world is way richer elsewhere ;)
I know this is anathema to monotongues, but this site, born in Europe be it said, fines members likewise should they use another language : posts just are not tolerated. Problem is that narrowing all discussions to one language does keep away many members from other countries ( see all the forums/blogs in German, Russian, French, Spanish ), and the sheer number of threads & the kind of discussion are heavily anglosaxon oriented - yaawn.
On a sidenote to hammer my point, I am always shocked at how US, Canadian, Oz citizens are not the least concerned about having done away with literally hundreds of "languages" by cultures they exterminated.


Are the Europeans concerned with having done away with the languages of cultures they've exterminated? That would be far more than all of those countries you mention combined. Europe/Asia/Africa have been "exterminating cultures" for thousands of years.

For what it's worth the U.S. has no official language. Some States have adopted English as their official language and some States have many official languages. Por ejemplo: Alaska has 20 official languages.
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
AEROFAN
Posts: 1759
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:47 am

Re: Air Canada fined for not using French language

Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:43 pm

Good for the couple. AC should have been fined more. Tired of corporations who think they can make decisions to skirt laws without being held accountable. Kudos Canada good for you!
 
User avatar
spinotter
Posts: 602
Joined: Wed May 27, 2015 1:37 am

Re: Air Canada fined for not using French languag0q

Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:44 pm

bluefrog wrote:
747WanSui wrote:
Remember that when AC acquired CP in 1999-2000, they had to teach many CP employees how to speak French. Thus, it is definitely not surprising that AC got in trouble for not using French when requested.

In terms of the linguistic situation in Canada, I heard that in Quebec, less than half of the population there know how to speak English, while in other parts of Canada, less than 10% of the population know how to speak French. Thus, it would definitely not be surprising to find people who can speak French but not English, especially in rural Quebec.

i was born in england with a french dad moved to france 30 years ago i know some quebecois from deep in the back country who only speak "french" i don't understand a word they say !! LOL


I agree, and here in Maine there are still some older people who speak a quebecois variant with a Maine accent!
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 6323
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

Re: Air Canada fined for not using French language

Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:59 pm

I keep waiting for the heading of this thread to be changed. Something more accurate would be “Air Canada sued due to exit sign font size. “

AEROFAN wrote:
Good for the couple. AC should have been fined more. Tired of corporations who think they can make decisions to skirt laws without being held accountable. Kudos Canada good for you!

So. ..... what law was broken? And “Canada” had little to do with it, as it was an award from a judge citing the “stress” of having to look at English being larger than French. It must have been awful for that couple.

The exit signs on the aircraft complied with all Canadian Air Regulations.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
TObound
Posts: 311
Joined: Mon May 27, 2019 12:54 am

Re: Air Canada fined for not using French language

Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:00 pm

I maybe the rare dissenter on this thread. But I agree with the strict imposition of these rules and would like to see them applied to Westjet. And I say this as an anglophone Ontarian.

Too often French is treated as the "second language" in Canada, with francophones treated somewhat second class customers by the service sector. When 1 in 5 Canucks has French as their first language, this isn't at all great for our national unity.

That said, it's an unfair burden to make AC carry this. Either impose the same rules on Westjet and any other carrier flying inter-provincially (like Porter) or give AC grants to provide this level of service, or drop the rules.
 
bhill
Posts: 1657
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 8:28 am

Re: Air Canada fined for not using French language

Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:42 pm

Dumb....while it may be the law, one wonders what percentage of all AC passengers are French expats...or whatever they are called. BTW, why is not the French franc treated the same way there? "I will only do business transactions in French specie.".....
Carpe Pices
 
KlimaBXsst
Posts: 370
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:14 pm

Re: Air Canada fined for not using French language

Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:53 pm

Just a quick reminder regarding aviation and aviation safety and language

https://www.icao.int/safety/lpr/Pages/L ... ments.aspx
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
Dominion301
Posts: 2258
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: Air Canada fined for not using French language

Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:45 pm

bhill wrote:
Dumb....while it may be the law, one wonders what percentage of all AC passengers are French expats...or whatever they are called. BTW, why is not the French franc treated the same way there? "I will only do business transactions in French specie.".....


Expats or “whatever they are called”? French Franc? On the former, a basic internet search would yield that about 22% of all Canadians have French as their mother tongue. For the “whatever”, does the word “citizens” ring a bell or two at all? On the latter, are you that clueless as to which currency is used in Canada and what’s been used in France for about the past 15 years?

Ignorance much?
 
User avatar
ztarizona
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:59 am

Re: Air Canada fined for not using French language

Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:01 pm

longhauler wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
That poor poor airline. They broke the law and get fined. :sarcastic:

A lot of you posters, that bash every passenger for not following all the arcane fine print rules of the airlines, get overly exited when an airline is fined for breaking the law.

When the Canadian law says that Air Canada has to have a French speaking F/A on every flight, than A/F just simply has to do it. Pay F/A's, that speak several languages, considerable more and you will find enough multilingual employees and the problem will solve itself.


I don't think anyone is bemoaning the "fine", more the mechanics of it.

Namely ... was it a "fine"? The proceeds of the "fine" did not go to a governing body, but to an opportunistic couple who were so stressed with having to look at an English word during their flight, that they require money in exchange. If it were a "fine", it would make more sense in that yes, laws were broken. And ... the proceeds of the "fine" could go toward alleviating the problem in the future. But as noted ... that is not what happened.

In fact, every time this couple finds other "tidbits" in which to complain one has to roll their eyes. (The "lift" on the seat belt buckle and ordering a drink by its marketing name and not "Sept Haut", is just the mere tip of the iceberg.)

The terms of the ACPPA arise every now and then, but to best capabilities, are followed.

Flights are cancelled as the Bilingue F/A was called away and passengers are placed on the (English speaking only) flight of Westjet. Employees are hired by region not capability. A pilot base exists where flying does not exist. etc. etc. etc. The main intent of the ACPPA was to keep Air Canada's corporate headquarters in Quebec during a time when Bill 101 and the threat of separatism had large corporations fleeing the province like rats off a sinking ship.

Air Canada has gladly kept its headquarters in Quebec and had grown its operation there.

What may have made sense in the 1980s now appears a little dated. When the issue of the ACPPA is raised and relief sought, the request is denied. But ... let's face it, in a business of razor sharp margins, it gives other airlines in Canada an edge.


The rules may be ludicrous or dated, but they are the rules as of today nonetheless. Good on this couple...airlines love to pull terms and conditions fine print BS when its in their favor, as was the case when David Dao was dragged off the plane when United violated their own contract of carriage. Since lay folk are not expected to be lawyers, they follow the direction of management, often blindly or to keep their job. Of course that trial and case never played out because in America they just buy their way out of it with a settlement, depriving everyone of justice and clarity when it comes to contracts of adhesion and fine print in which nowhere did it state someone could be deboarded who had already been boarded, or the "I can't believe the boarding process was complete when I sat my a$$ in the seat" and stowed my bags situation. Adhesion contracts do not allow for 'reading into' the contract. The black and white written word is what it is. They could've accounted for such a situation in the contract of 20+ pages but didn't.

Now the tables have been turned and the airline fanboys here bemoan that the airline, Air Canada in this case, lost. Sorry the rules aint there to be ignored. :rotfl: :sarcastic:
“The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.” ― Issac Asimov
 
caribny
Posts: 151
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:47 am

Re: Air Canada fined for not using French language

Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:38 pm

max999 wrote:
longhauler wrote:
Understand that only Air Canada operates under these restrictions. No other airline in Canada!

So ....... Westjet (for example) does not have to change the “lift” notation on seat belt buckles to bilingual.

Only in Canada.

Also understand this is the same couple that complained about not being able to order “7 Up” in French. (And won).


The couple seem culturally American for their ability to leverage inane lawsuits for personal gain.



I suspect that this is "political" rather than personal. Its about guaranteeing equitable treatment of French. I bet they are from Quebec.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 9407
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Air Canada fined for not using French language

Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:04 pm

And I believe the French do not agree that French Canadians actually speak French too. I have friends on both sides and the discussion is quite.... emphatic on both. :spin:

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
jimbo737
Posts: 437
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:18 am

Re: Air Canada fined for not using French language

Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:42 pm

AC enjoys various “legacy” advantages for having previously been government owned.

The quid pro quo is having to abide by the Act that still governs them, and that means a heightened level of bilingual service compared to other Cdn domiciled airlines.

If AC were prepared to give up some of the legacy goodies they received gratis as a gov’t owned airline, (LHR slots come to mind), I’m sure the other carriers in Canada would not object to the playing field being “equaled”.
 
User avatar
northstardc4m
Posts: 3242
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2000 11:23 am

Re: Air Canada fined for not using French language

Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:56 pm

jimbo737 wrote:
AC enjoys various “legacy” advantages for having previously been government owned.

The quid pro quo is having to abide by the Act that still governs them, and that means a heightened level of bilingual service compared to other Cdn domiciled airlines.

If AC were prepared to give up some of the legacy goodies they received gratis as a gov’t owned airline, (LHR slots come to mind), I’m sure the other carriers in Canada would not object to the playing field being “equaled”.
Give me a break... Air Canada was privatized 33 years ago. The LHR slots are not restricted by any form of protection anymore, WS or anyone else are welcome to buy slots and operate to LHR. TS did operate to LHR for awhile. AC gave back (to the BAA) several pairs during the post CP merger and bankruptcy. AC pays the fees for those slots and every other one it uses. No route authorization has been a closed bid since 1986, no authority on a restricted route predates that anymore I dont think...

AC has had to give up far more than it has received bin protection ( forced to merge with CP, forced to buy mods on 744 it didn't want, only airline required to abide by language policy, not allowed to move hq or mx bases for years etc etc) than anything even close to what people claim protections gave it.

Really bugs me when people use this 20 year out of date argument over nothing.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 6323
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

Re: Air Canada fined for not using French language

Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:03 am

jimbo737 wrote:
If AC were prepared to give up some of the legacy goodies they received gratis as a gov’t owned airline, (LHR slots come to mind), I’m sure the other carriers in Canada would not object to the playing field being “equaled”.

While a cute argument, it is sadly inaccurate. Westjet has only ever competed with a private Air Canada. But it is foretelling westjet’s future excuses for failures. Besides, the “other carriers” in Canada have absolutely no say whether the playing field is equaled or not.

Notwithstanding, Air Canada was flying to London 40 years before westjet even came into existence. While I am sure westjet would love to jump to the head of the queue for LHR slots, it doesn’t work that way. It would be like an upstart restaurant demanding prime real estate for business because it’s current location is lacklustre.

If westjet had applied for LHR slots 20 years ago, they would have enough now to cover their London operations. But they didn’t, so they don’t. That would be very expensive, but, it’s all a part of the costs of being a real airline. Unit costs are a little different from flying an all Y 737 from YQR to YEG.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
ExMilitaryEng
Posts: 557
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 7:12 pm

Re: Air Canada fined for not using French language

Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:05 am

caribny wrote:
I suspect that this is "political" rather than personal. Its about guaranteeing equitable treatment of French. I bet they are from Quebec.

No, they are from Ontario.

FWIW, francos outside Québec are the one the most vocal / militant about having services in their language accross Canada. And they have good reasons...

And indeed, it's more symbolic than personnal gain. You have no idea how many hours/years they spent on that case. $21k is peanuts, really.
 
jimbo737
Posts: 437
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:18 am

Re: Air Canada fined for not using French language

Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:51 am

Free LHR slots / assets are just one of the legacy advantages.

If the “cost” of such a legacy advantage is having to abide by more stringent language rules, as laid out in the Act, then so be it.

Have you ever wondered why Aeroplan points are not considered a taxable benefit when the points are earned as part of one’s job?
 
User avatar
WildcatYXU
Posts: 3101
Joined: Sat May 06, 2006 2:05 pm

Re: Air Canada fined for not using French language

Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:47 pm

jimbo737 wrote:
Free LHR slots / assets are just one of the legacy advantages.

If the “cost” of such a legacy advantage is having to abide by more stringent language rules, as laid out in the Act, then so be it.

Have you ever wondered why Aeroplan points are not considered a taxable benefit when the points are earned as part of one’s job?


Most likely because the points have no defined monetary value. The real point value may differ wildly for different plan members. Also it would be so difficult to separate Aeroplan points earned on business travel from the points earned by personal travel and affiliated credit cards that its simply not worth it. Not to mention that there are many other employee perks that also aren't considered a taxable benefit.
No, I don't think the government is doing a special favour to AC in this case.
310, 319, 320, 321, 321N, 332, 333, 343, 345, 346, 732, 735, 73G, 738, 744, 752, 762, 763, 77L, 77W, 788, AT4, AT7, BEH, CR2, CRA, CR9, DH1, DH3, DH4, E45, E75, E90, E95, F28, F50, F100, MD82, Saab 340, YAK40
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4663
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

Re: Air Canada fined for not using French language

Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:51 pm

dcajet wrote:
ual763 wrote:
I did not realize that many in Quebec did not know English. I have been told before by Canadian colleagues that English was the primary language taught in schools throughout Canada and that French was a primary language at home in Quebec and also taught as a secondary language in Quebec in school. .


Since 1974, French is the sole official language of Quebec. Services, instruction (education), labor relations and business and legislation and justice are all areas where French takes precedence.


So, if I am anglophone and need to use the DMV or a courthouse in Quebec City I am out of luck, but these idiots get to sue Air Canada because of font sizes and belt buckle instructions nobody ever reads? Yeah, that makes total sense...
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
ExMilitaryEng
Posts: 557
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 7:12 pm

Re: Air Canada fined for not using French language

Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:15 pm

Pyrex wrote:
So, if I am anglophone and need to use the DMV or a courthouse in Quebec City I am out of luck, but these idiots get to sue Air Canada because of font sizes and belt buckle instructions nobody ever reads? Yeah, that makes total sense...

Bizarre comment to say the least. Where did you get that?

As an anglophone you'll have no problems whatsoever to obtain english spoken courthouse timings in Québec City.

And you have sufficient english speaking employees in every DMV (called SAAQ) accross Québec, including Québec City. I'm from Abitibi, which is even more french; english gouvernment services are also available there. Difficulties will be the exception.

Actually, the other way around is VASTLY more likely. --> A francophone will have way more problems finding a french courthouse or french DMV services in the rest of Canada. (Except maybe in NB)

That's why you have activists like those franco-Ontarians (that you're calling "idiots").
 
User avatar
yowza
Posts: 4493
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:01 am

Re: Air Canada fined for not using French language

Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:52 pm

ExMilitaryEng wrote:
That's why you have activists like those franco-Ontarians (that you're calling "idiots").

What are they doing with the money? If they're keeping it they're ambulance chasers not activists.

YOWza
 
fraT
Posts: 1100
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 4:32 am

Re: Air Canada fined for not using French language

Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:01 pm

Is there any carrier which has the word "LIFT" in another language than English on the seatbelts?
 
ExMilitaryEng
Posts: 557
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 7:12 pm

Re: Air Canada fined for not using French language

Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:21 pm

yowza wrote:
What are they doing with the money? If they're keeping it they're ambulance chasers not activists.
YOWza

Haha! Ambulance chasers, I like that! (As a kid, I used to follow firetrucks in my small town...)

After years of work and a pity $21k, they should change career. They would make more money in picking up empty returnable bottles... That's why I call them activists.
 
SoEWR
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:39 am

Re: Air Canada fined for not using French language

Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:58 pm

AMS18C36C wrote:

I’ve noticed that too at KLM. The ‘welcome on board’ announcement will be in both Dutch and English, and they subsequently inform passengers that further announcements will be in English and explicitly mention that you can call the cabin crew if you have any questions. Any announcements made by the pilots will usually be in both Dutch and English. It’s slightly strange, as KLM is the Dutch flag carrier, but I’m not really bothered about it.


More than 90% of Dutch people speak English, most speak very good English. This would be surprising if KLM was the only carrier that did this. Icelandair does the same thing. It makes all announcements in English, with the exception of announcements to crew.
 
Virtual737
Posts: 619
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:16 am

Re: Air Canada fined for not using French language

Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:54 pm

yzfElite wrote:
Is AC allowed to ban this couple from flying them? If it were me, I'd ban them and use them as a reason to force MPs to take a fresh look at the legislation to either make every carrier comply or change the law.


...and if they did ban them, would the correspondence need to be written in both languages?
 
dragonflyer
Posts: 44
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2007 12:30 am

Re: Air Canada fined for not using French language

Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:19 pm

Bonjour! ! I'm from the USA but I speak both French & English. I do agree with the couple that the law MUST be followed. Air Canada, based in Montréal, QC, should be able to comply . To me, the couple that filed the complaint are standing up for others who may not have the time or resources to fight for their rights. If Canada is officially bilingual, then adding French to everything should be a given. The law is the law and it must either be followed or changed.

I wonder how many English speakers would do the same thing if the tables were turned and everything was in French and they were the minority. (I'm guessing many would.) In California almost all signs are in English and Spanish almost everywhere and they seem to coexist reasonably well even though no signage in Spanish is required by law.

I also have to add that I've flown Air Canada and had excellent French speakers who served their customers perfectly in French. Very polite and professional and immediately switched to French when the customer did not speak English.

I was also on one Air Canada Express flight out of Vancouver that was delayed waiting for takeoff. The explanation in English was very thorough but the French one was very brief; this left the French only speakers not really aware of what was going on. Is that really fair and equal treatment, especially in a bilingual country? I think that is where this couple is coming from.

Lastly, I DO agree with other posters that domestic services in Canada should apply to ALL airlines, especially those serving Québec. It is patently unfair to penalize Air Canada but not expect other Canadian airlines to offer services in French. It seems like French only speakers are being locked into only doing business with Air Canada if other airlines are not offering services in French.
We earn our wings every day...Comments/opinions are my own and do not reflect my employer.
 
jimbo737
Posts: 437
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:18 am

Re: Air Canada fined for not using French language

Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:26 pm

WildcatYXU wrote:
jimbo737 wrote:
Free LHR slots / assets are just one of the legacy advantages.

If the “cost” of such a legacy advantage is having to abide by more stringent language rules, as laid out in the Act, then so be it.

Have you ever wondered why Aeroplan points are not considered a taxable benefit when the points are earned as part of one’s job?


Most likely because the points have no defined monetary value. The real point value may differ wildly for different plan members. Also it would be so difficult to separate Aeroplan points earned on business travel from the points earned by personal travel and affiliated credit cards that its simply not worth it. Not to mention that there are many other employee perks that also aren't considered a taxable benefit.
No, I don't think the government is doing a special favour to AC in this case.


The points are worth at least what, for example, CIBC, pays Aeroplan per point. That’s not hard for the taxman to quantify.

Going forward, it also wouldn’t be hard to separate personal Aeroplan accounts from accounts with points earned from trips paid for by the employer and tax those points as a taxable benefit, no different than other benefits such as parking etc.

Make no mistake about it. It’s an advantage that has worked for the benefit of AC over a number of decades to lock in loyalty. Sure, others could have copied it , but never with the same burn opportunity. Personally, I’m always reticent to be bribed with my own money, but if it’s someone else’s....(which goes back to the taxable benefit issue). Seduced by the mile.

And make no mistake about it. It’s not going to change any time soon. There are gazillions of voters in places like Toronto and Montreal who use these benefits to underwrite their winter holidays in the sun.

Again, a quid pro quo of these little advantages AC has enjoyed over the years is that they are held to a different standard of bilingualism and other areas than the other airlines.

That being said, I can’t recall the last time I’ve flown on ANY airline domiciled in Canada where any and all required announcements were not in both official languages, and that includes WS since day one. Maybe not live, ie “Pierre in a can”, but always in English and French.

And back to the original topic, I’m pretty sure all airlines in Canada would be more than happy if the two “victims” would simply take the bus in the future.
 
DDR
Posts: 1632
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:09 pm

Re: Air Canada fined for not using French language

Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:31 pm

Oh merde.

This couple needs to get a life.
 
jfk777
Posts: 7045
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

Re: Air Canada fined for not using French language

Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:04 am

Air Canada shouldn't have to use French unless the flight is going to Montreal or some other French speaking destination. Quebec's special cultural considerations drive other parts of Canada crazy.
 
glideslope900
Posts: 128
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:27 am

Re: Air Canada fined for not using French language

Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:01 am

DWC wrote:
English speakers should learn another language, the world is way richer elsewhere ;)
I know this is anathema to monotongues, but this site, born in Europe be it said, fines members likewise should they use another language : posts just are not tolerated. Problem is that narrowing all discussions to one language does keep away many members from other countries ( see all the forums/blogs in German, Russian, French, Spanish ), and the sheer number of threads & the kind of discussion are heavily anglosaxon oriented - yaawn.
On a sidenote to hammer my point, I am always shocked at how US, Canadian, Oz citizens are not the least concerned about having done away with literally hundreds of "languages" by cultures they exterminated.
I am fluent in French by the way & would welcome some discussion in der Sprache Goethes.
I also think they are more Chinese, Japanese and other -nese avgeeks than all of us here combined.



Are you saying that US/Canadian culture is the only culture that has “exterminated” other cultures? If not, I don’t understand what that comment is about.

Whether you like it or not, English is the international aviation language and the most popular language in the world.
 
patrickjp93
Posts: 384
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:00 pm

Re: Air Canada fined for not using French language

Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:18 am

Dominion301 wrote:
IAHWorldflyer wrote:
I honestly don't remember the seatbelt buckles on Air France having the word for lift in French.


France French has a lot of English loan words like parking and stop that aren’t used in Canadian French...which itself does have English loan words that largely differ from France. Anglophones, whether they know it or not, have pillaged at least 7,000 French words into the highly parasitic English language. Just think about that the next time you hop into a chic automobile or make a reservation. :spin:

You mean climb into a hotrod or make a booking. Honestly, it's like these stuffy French knobs don't get that the freest countries on Earth speak English and that's why English rules the skies :spin: :spin: :spin:

'Murica!!!
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4663
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

Re: Air Canada fined for not using French language

Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:00 pm

ExMilitaryEng wrote:
Pyrex wrote:
So, if I am anglophone and need to use the DMV or a courthouse in Quebec City I am out of luck, but these idiots get to sue Air Canada because of font sizes and belt buckle instructions nobody ever reads? Yeah, that makes total sense...

Bizarre comment to say the least. Where did you get that?



That is kind of implied from "sole official language", which was in the text I quoted...
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
ExMilitaryEng
Posts: 557
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 7:12 pm

Re: Air Canada fined for not using French language

Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:12 pm

Pyrex wrote:
That is kind of implied from "sole official language", which was in the text I quoted...

I can understand that "sole official language" can lead to many interpretatations for someone outside Canada.

-->> The reality is that Québec offers its english minority WAY MORE services than what francophone minorities can dream of receiving in the rest of Canada - whatever the metric you use.

I guess we should ajust those services to the same "rest of Canada standard" in order to save some money - the same way Ontario is currently ajusting its services to its french minority.

No points of overdoing it if nobody recognises it, and still keep spreading fake news on the treatmemt of Québec's anglos.

Not directed to you Pyrex, as you can only rely on english speaking media.
 
User avatar
QB737
Posts: 318
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2003 2:28 am

Re: Air Canada fined for not using French language

Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:22 am

[/quote]

-->> The reality is that Québec offers its english minority WAY MORE services than what francophone minorities can dream of receiving in the rest of Canada - whatever the metric you use.

.[/quote]

As a Quebecois living in Western Canada, I can concur with that statement.
Ben YVR
 
Smoothy
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:03 pm

Re: Air Canada fined for not using French language

Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:12 pm

They don't seem keen to talk to the media:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAxXZuntwJA

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos