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planemanofnz
Posts: 4296
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:46 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - September 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 1:36 am

777ER wrote:
... making it harder to reach Gold/Gold Elite.

Isn't it already comparatively quite difficult to reach Gold/Gold Elite on NZ (as opposed to in other airlines/schemes)?

Cheers,

C.
 
planemanofnz
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Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:46 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - September 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 1:37 am

NZ516 wrote:
... could we expect to see WLG and CHC 320 flights out of WPE initially?

Keeping it to props may make the whole idea more feasible/less costly?

Cheers,

C.
 
planemanofnz
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - September 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 1:48 am

zkncj wrote:
It must of been an long tine since New Zealand has had an International service operated by an prop?

Separately, at present, I don't think it would be possible to do any other international flight ex-New Zealand as a prop one.

Air Tahiti (VT) flies the ATR 72 on GMR - PPT (1,654 kms), but I can't think of any international flights for us that would be shorter than that - for example:
- ZQN - HBA (1,717 kms)
- AKL - NOU (1,856 kms)
- AKL - TBU (2,001 kms)

However, if LDH became able to accommodate bigger planes than they currently do, and international flights at that, AKL - LDH would only be 1,567 kms.

:stirthepot:

Cheers,

C.
 
NZ516
Posts: 92
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - September 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 1:53 am

planemanofnz wrote:
NZ516 wrote:
So where next for Air Chathams?

What about WKA, from AKL or CHC?

Cheers,

C.


There would certainly be a market for those routes. But the Wanaka airport needs the upgrade to make it happen runway & tarmac strengthening etc. An expansion to the terminal will likely be needed. But unfortunately the locals don't want it to go ahead so there is the main stumbling block for it to be a goer.
 
planemanofnz
Posts: 4296
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:46 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - September 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:08 am

NZ516 wrote:
planemanofnz wrote:
NZ516 wrote:
So where next for Air Chathams?

What about WKA, from AKL or CHC?

Cheers,

C.


There would certainly be a market for those routes. But the Wanaka airport needs the upgrade to make it happen runway & tarmac strengthening etc. An expansion to the terminal will likely be needed. But unfortunately the locals don't want it to go ahead so there is the main stumbling block for it to be a goer.

I haven't followed WKA closely - had just thought the infrastructure that supported the NZ B1900D flights in the past would still be there and able to support 3C CV580 ones now - but appreciate this might not be the case.

Cheers,

C.
 
NZ516
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - September 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:38 am

Runway not strong enough can take one off flights but not regular daily services
 
Megatop747-412
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - September 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:29 am

It appears that NZJ is back in service, having been in SIN since Aug 10 to have WIFI fitted. And it looks like NZK is now in SIN having WiFi installed?
 
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VirginFlyer
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - September 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:54 am

zkncj wrote:
NZ516 wrote:
New Zealand's Newest International Airline

Air Chathams commences its first international service today as it begins flights between Auckland and Norfolk Island. The new route will be serviced by Air Chathams' Convair 580 aircraft. The weekly service is being operated on Fridays with the flights scheduled to take 2 hours 20 minutes. The flight to Norfolk Island, 3C 401, will depart Auckland at 9am and arriving at 10.20am Norfolk Island time. The return flight, 3C 402, will leave Norfolk Island at 11.20am and arrive back into Auckland at 2.40pm.

The first flight was flown under the command of founder and owner Craig Emeny and his son, Duane Emeny, Air Chathams' General Manager in Convair ZK-CIB.

Auckland Airport congratulates Air Chathams on first international flight
Auckland Airport has welcomed Air Chatham’s first international flight to Norfolk Island today. With the service to operate once a week, the first flight was piloted by founder and owner Craig Emeny and his son, Duane Emeny, General Manager of Air Chathams. “We are really excited to re-establish the direct link between Auckland and Norfolk Island and we are really encouraged by the early interest we’ve had from passengers, with forward bookings indicating it’s going to be another successful route for our family airline,” says Duane Emeny, General Manager, Air Chathams. Scott Tasker, Auckland Airport’s General Manager Aeronautical Commercial, says the new service is great news for travellers, adding more choice and capacity. “With a flight time of just over two hours, the direct flight will enable travellers to experience a pristine tourism destination and provide freight opportunities for locals, with the new year-round service offering over 5,000 seats on the route per year. “Since Air Chathams began regular mainland New Zealand services in 2015, it has seen rapid growth, now flying to eight destinations and carrying over 100,000 people per year. We look forward to seeing Air Chathams continue to grow and provide the much-valued service of linking New Zealand communities, and now Norfolk Island, together,” adds Mr Tasker.


Source : Press Release: Auckland Airport

Great to have another second NZ international airline, sounds like this route will be a success for them. So where next for Air Chathams? Might be another former Air NZ route that could be a goer.


It must of been an long tine since New Zealand has had an International service operated by an prop? It also must be one of the only International passenger route operated by an aircraft that is over 50 years old.

If Air Chat's do get 737s as they have talked about is the past, I think we could see them take over NZ's IUE service.

I believe the last scheduled international turboprop service from New Zealand* would have been NAC’s and then Air New Zealand’s Fokker F27 service to Norfolk Island, which was replaced by 737s 35 years ago this month: http://3rdlevelnz.blogspot.com/2017/09/ ... y.html?m=1

Interestingly, I also believe Norfolk Island would also have been the last scheduled piston-engined international service from New Zealand, operated by a Qantas DC-4 up until 1975.

This flight is an interesting opportunity for enthusiasts I would say, given the Convair 580 is a rather rare type in service today. I’m not actually sure if there are any other operators using them on scheduled passenger routes.

*If you expand the definition of New Zealand to include the other parts of the realm of New Zealand (Cook Islands, Niue, Tokelau), then there is also the ATR service by Air Tahiti between Papeete and Rarotonga.

V/F
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh
 
NZ6
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Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - September 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:53 pm

NZ516 wrote:
planemanofnz wrote:
NZ516 wrote:
So where next for Air Chathams?

What about WKA, from AKL or CHC?

Cheers,

C.


There would certainly be a market for those routes. But the Wanaka airport needs the upgrade to make it happen runway & tarmac strengthening etc. An expansion to the terminal will likely be needed. But unfortunately the locals don't want it to go ahead so there is the main stumbling block for it to be a goer.


There seems to be a common understanding WKA needs to be strengthened for any A320 services, it probably originated from the very likely assumption that given the runway is far to narrow and short for A320 flights it'll likely also be too weak

But is there any factual information on the runway strength itself or what aircraft can and cannot land there?

I'm hoping there is which will give clarity on the topic but get the feeling it's morphed into something bigger than it is.

As planemanofnz said, NZ ran regular B1900 flights in there so we know it's capable of at least that... but after that, it's a bit of a mystery unless you have an engineering degree or if it's listed somewhere
 
NZ6
Posts: 1158
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - September 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:55 pm

planemanofnz wrote:
777ER wrote:
... making it harder to reach Gold/Gold Elite.

Isn't it already comparatively quite difficult to reach Gold/Gold Elite on NZ (as opposed to in other airlines/schemes)?

Cheers,

C.


As I've said before, it's in perspective of how many and how often top flyers are flying... GE/G/S member number have grown even though limits have changed.

But this has nothing to do with the change coming up.
 
NZ6
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Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - September 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 11:12 pm

zkncj wrote:
NZ516 wrote:
New Zealand's Newest International Airline

Air Chathams commences its first international service today as it begins flights between Auckland and Norfolk Island. The new route will be serviced by Air Chathams' Convair 580 aircraft. The weekly service is being operated on Fridays with the flights scheduled to take 2 hours 20 minutes. The flight to Norfolk Island, 3C 401, will depart Auckland at 9am and arriving at 10.20am Norfolk Island time. The return flight, 3C 402, will leave Norfolk Island at 11.20am and arrive back into Auckland at 2.40pm.

The first flight was flown under the command of founder and owner Craig Emeny and his son, Duane Emeny, Air Chathams' General Manager in Convair ZK-CIB.

Auckland Airport congratulates Air Chathams on first international flight
Auckland Airport has welcomed Air Chatham’s first international flight to Norfolk Island today. With the service to operate once a week, the first flight was piloted by founder and owner Craig Emeny and his son, Duane Emeny, General Manager of Air Chathams. “We are really excited to re-establish the direct link between Auckland and Norfolk Island and we are really encouraged by the early interest we’ve had from passengers, with forward bookings indicating it’s going to be another successful route for our family airline,” says Duane Emeny, General Manager, Air Chathams. Scott Tasker, Auckland Airport’s General Manager Aeronautical Commercial, says the new service is great news for travellers, adding more choice and capacity. “With a flight time of just over two hours, the direct flight will enable travellers to experience a pristine tourism destination and provide freight opportunities for locals, with the new year-round service offering over 5,000 seats on the route per year. “Since Air Chathams began regular mainland New Zealand services in 2015, it has seen rapid growth, now flying to eight destinations and carrying over 100,000 people per year. We look forward to seeing Air Chathams continue to grow and provide the much-valued service of linking New Zealand communities, and now Norfolk Island, together,” adds Mr Tasker.


Source : Press Release: Auckland Airport

Great to have another second NZ international airline, sounds like this route will be a success for them. So where next for Air Chathams? Might be another former Air NZ route that could be a goer.


It must of been an long tine since New Zealand has had an International service operated by an prop? It also must be one of the only International passenger route operated by an aircraft that is over 50 years old.

If Air Chat's do get 737s as they have talked about is the past, I think we could see them take over NZ's IUE service.


Just had look on the 3C website, all be it for this month, just under $1K to go on a 50-year-old turboprop, you'd have to really want to visit NLK wouldn't you. I mean, I can't see too many agents selling it or people lining up for it? Having been there once, it's a nice place but there are so many Pacific Island options all for a very similar price. Even if you hated NZ, there's always OL, VA, FJ, TN, NF and SB

Begs the question too, if it does well for 3C do they risk NZ entering and tearing them apart with their modern jets and agent distribution etc

Regarding IUE... I'm not too sure if NZ would be bothered if 3C picked it up and I'm sure 3C would be able to operate it cheaper than NZ can.

I'm still doubtful if 3C will even get a 737 though.. unless they find some secondary use for it, such as contracted freighter flights via a combi model then I can't see how they'd get enough use out of it. Also, the noise will be an issue on the older models likely facing restrictions down the track much like the DHL 727 faced.
 
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VirginFlyer
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - September 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 11:40 pm

NZ6 wrote:
Just had look on the 3C website, all be it for this month, just under $1K to go on a 50-year-old turboprop, you'd have to really want to visit NLK wouldn't you. I mean, I can't see too many agents selling it or people lining up for it? Having been there once, it's a nice place but there are so many Pacific Island options all for a very similar price. Even if you hated NZ, there's always OL, VA, FJ, TN, NF and SB

Begs the question too, if it does well for 3C do they risk NZ entering and tearing them apart with their modern jets and agent distribution etc

Regarding IUE... I'm not too sure if NZ would be bothered if 3C picked it up and I'm sure 3C would be able to operate it cheaper than NZ can.

I'm still doubtful if 3C will even get a 737 though.. unless they find some secondary use for it, such as contracted freighter flights via a combi model then I can't see how they'd get enough use out of it. Also, the noise will be an issue on the older models likely facing restrictions down the track much like the DHL 727 faced.

Given that the other option to get to Norfolk Island from New Zealand is to go via Australia, at somewhat greater time and cost, the value proposition Air Chathams offer to someone wanting to travel between Auckland and Norfolk Island is pretty good. The Convair may be older, but the seating is more spacious than on an A320, so it does have that going for it too. Will it be everyone’s cup of tea? No probably not, but I would suspect there will be sufficient takers to make a once-weekly service on a 50 seat turboprop work where other operators have struggled to operate a 130-180 seat jet. I can’t see Air New Zealand jumping back in on the action for simply that reason. Air Chathams is also now bookable through GDS, so it is more visible to agents than it used to be a few months ago.

V/F
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh
 
NZ6
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - September 2019

Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:17 am

VirginFlyer wrote:
NZ6 wrote:
Just had look on the 3C website, all be it for this month, just under $1K to go on a 50-year-old turboprop, you'd have to really want to visit NLK wouldn't you. I mean, I can't see too many agents selling it or people lining up for it? Having been there once, it's a nice place but there are so many Pacific Island options all for a very similar price. Even if you hated NZ, there's always OL, VA, FJ, TN, NF and SB

Begs the question too, if it does well for 3C do they risk NZ entering and tearing them apart with their modern jets and agent distribution etc

Regarding IUE... I'm not too sure if NZ would be bothered if 3C picked it up and I'm sure 3C would be able to operate it cheaper than NZ can.

I'm still doubtful if 3C will even get a 737 though.. unless they find some secondary use for it, such as contracted freighter flights via a combi model then I can't see how they'd get enough use out of it. Also, the noise will be an issue on the older models likely facing restrictions down the track much like the DHL 727 faced.

Given that the other option to get to Norfolk Island from New Zealand is to go via Australia, at somewhat greater time and cost, the value proposition Air Chathams offer to someone wanting to travel between Auckland and Norfolk Island is pretty good. The Convair may be older, but the seating is more spacious than on an A320, so it does have that going for it too. Will it be everyone’s cup of tea? No probably not, but I would suspect there will be sufficient takers to make a once-weekly service on a 50 seat turboprop work where other operators have struggled to operate a 130-180 seat jet. I can’t see Air New Zealand jumping back in on the action for simply that reason. Air Chathams is also now bookable through GDS, so it is more visible to agents than it used to be a few months ago.

V/F


Given there are no other direct options to get there is the exact reason I said you'd have to really want to go there. A Convair may offer more personal cabin space but what is the average punters view on flying long distance over water on what's probably seen as a historic aircraft which is also slow and noisy yet still pretty expensive to buy a ticket on.

If you really want to go there, well, 3C does it, I guess the aging equipment is something consumers need to accept as the sacrifice.

As for being in a GDS, that doesn't in itself convert to sales.

The major agents (helloworld, flight centre, House of Travel etc) are all incentivised by the airlines to reach specific sales targets... unless you ask for NLK specifically, you'll be sold onto one the main carriers to one of the more common destinations.

I've just done 18Oct - 25Oct AKL-NLK-AKL online.

Air Chathams website: returns flights and a price, purely to confirm there were seats available at the time.

- Expedia: Only offered NZ via Australia.
- Mix and Match (House of travel): No flights at all.
- Flight Centre: return flights and price on 3C
- Webjet: Only offered NZ via Australia.
- Helloworld: Only offered NZ via Australia.

It goes to show being in a GDS isn't always a guarantee you'll show up for agents and online. I mean showing up online on only 1 out of 5 major online travel websites in New Zealand is pretty shocking.
Last edited by NZ6 on Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
PA515
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - September 2019

Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:23 am

NZ6 wrote:
There seems to be a common understanding WKA needs to be strengthened for any A320 services, it probably originated from the very likely assumption that given the runway is far to narrow and short for A320 flights it'll likely also be too weak

But is there any factual information on the runway strength itself or what aircraft can and cannot land there?

I'm hoping there is which will give clarity on the topic but get the feeling it's morphed into something bigger than it is.

As planemanofnz said, NZ ran regular B1900 flights in there so we know it's capable of at least that... but after that, it's a bit of a mystery unless you have an engineering degree or if it's listed somewhere


ATR 72-500 ZK-MCJ did a charter to the 2010 Warbirds Over Wanaka, and Q300 ZK-NFI in 2014. 3C's 580 has also been there. Don't know if these were weight restricted flights.

PA515
 
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SelandiaBaru
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - September 2019

Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:16 am

NZ6 wrote:
NZ516 wrote:
planemanofnz wrote:
What about WKA, from AKL or CHC?

Cheers,

C.


There would certainly be a market for those routes. But the Wanaka airport needs the upgrade to make it happen runway & tarmac strengthening etc. An expansion to the terminal will likely be needed. But unfortunately the locals don't want it to go ahead so there is the main stumbling block for it to be a goer.


There seems to be a common understanding WKA needs to be strengthened for any A320 services, it probably originated from the very likely assumption that given the runway is far to narrow and short for A320 flights it'll likely also be too weak

But is there any factual information on the runway strength itself or what aircraft can and cannot land there?

I'm hoping there is which will give clarity on the topic but get the feeling it's morphed into something bigger than it is.

As planemanofnz said, NZ ran regular B1900 flights in there so we know it's capable of at least that... but after that, it's a bit of a mystery unless you have an engineering degree or if it's listed somewhere


Readily available info on the AIP gives the pavement classification number (PCN) as 12 with a flexible medium strength, max tyre pressure of 1500kPA.

Aircraft classification numbers (ACN) must be at or below the PCN for unrestricted operations. A Q300 on that surface is a 9, an ATR at 12 with an A320 depending on weight 19-39. I know that QAC is well aware of this.
 
zkncj
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - September 2019

Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:05 am

NZ6 wrote:
zkncj wrote:
NZ516 wrote:
New Zealand's Newest International Airline



Source : Press Release: Auckland Airport

Great to have another second NZ international airline, sounds like this route will be a success for them. So where next for Air Chathams? Might be another former Air NZ route that could be a goer.


It must of been an long tine since New Zealand has had an International service operated by an prop? It also must be one of the only International passenger route operated by an aircraft that is over 50 years old.

If Air Chat's do get 737s as they have talked about is the past, I think we could see them take over NZ's IUE service.


Just had look on the 3C website, all be it for this month, just under $1K to go on a 50-year-old turboprop, you'd have to really want to visit NLK wouldn't you. I mean, I can't see too many agents selling it or people lining up for it? Having been there once, it's a nice place but there are so many Pacific Island options all for a very similar price. Even if you hated NZ, there's always OL, VA, FJ, TN, NF and SB

Begs the question too, if it does well for 3C do they risk NZ entering and tearing them apart with their modern jets and agent distribution etc

Regarding IUE... I'm not too sure if NZ would be bothered if 3C picked it up and I'm sure 3C would be able to operate it cheaper than NZ can.

I'm still doubtful if 3C will even get a 737 though.. unless they find some secondary use for it, such as contracted freighter flights via a combi model then I can't see how they'd get enough use out of it. Also, the noise will be an issue on the older models likely facing restrictions down the track much like the DHL 727 faced.


Some of the ex-AS 734 combi’s would probably be the best option for 3C (would require the CHT runway to be upgraded).

Would probably work for routes like IUE too, were there is demand for fresh cargo as an life line to the island.
 
NZ6
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - September 2019

Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:55 am

SelandiaBaru wrote:
NZ6 wrote:
NZ516 wrote:

There would certainly be a market for those routes. But the Wanaka airport needs the upgrade to make it happen runway & tarmac strengthening etc. An expansion to the terminal will likely be needed. But unfortunately the locals don't want it to go ahead so there is the main stumbling block for it to be a goer.


There seems to be a common understanding WKA needs to be strengthened for any A320 services, it probably originated from the very likely assumption that given the runway is far to narrow and short for A320 flights it'll likely also be too weak

But is there any factual information on the runway strength itself or what aircraft can and cannot land there?

I'm hoping there is which will give clarity on the topic but get the feeling it's morphed into something bigger than it is.

As planemanofnz said, NZ ran regular B1900 flights in there so we know it's capable of at least that... but after that, it's a bit of a mystery unless you have an engineering degree or if it's listed somewhere


Readily available info on the AIP gives the pavement classification number (PCN) as 12 with a flexible medium strength, max tyre pressure of 1500kPA.

Aircraft classification numbers (ACN) must be at or below the PCN for unrestricted operations. A Q300 on that surface is a 9, an ATR at 12 with an A320 depending on weight 19-39. I know that QAC is well aware of this.


Awesome, thanks for explaining this. I'm no expert on the technical side of things.

http://www.aip.net.nz/pdf/NZWF_52.1.pdf

Out of interest, is there a simple way of finding various aircraft ACN's?
 
NZ6
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - September 2019

Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:12 am

zkncj wrote:
Some of the ex-AS 734 combi’s would probably be the best option for 3C (would require the CHT runway to be upgraded).

Would probably work for routes like IUE too, were there is demand for fresh cargo as an life line to the island.


A combi would be the way to go for sure.

- I'd have concerns about the noise and possible future restrictions that may be imposed with older aircraft.
- IUE doesn't have that much 'fresh' cargo demand. Seafood, meat and fruit veggie are all locally sourced. Don't get me wrong there is some but all dry goods come in by sea which is obviously significantly cheaper and you're able to import on bulk.
 
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SelandiaBaru
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - September 2019

Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:20 am

NZ6 wrote:
SelandiaBaru wrote:
NZ6 wrote:

There seems to be a common understanding WKA needs to be strengthened for any A320 services, it probably originated from the very likely assumption that given the runway is far to narrow and short for A320 flights it'll likely also be too weak

But is there any factual information on the runway strength itself or what aircraft can and cannot land there?

I'm hoping there is which will give clarity on the topic but get the feeling it's morphed into something bigger than it is.

As planemanofnz said, NZ ran regular B1900 flights in there so we know it's capable of at least that... but after that, it's a bit of a mystery unless you have an engineering degree or if it's listed somewhere


Readily available info on the AIP gives the pavement classification number (PCN) as 12 with a flexible medium strength, max tyre pressure of 1500kPA.

Aircraft classification numbers (ACN) must be at or below the PCN for unrestricted operations. A Q300 on that surface is a 9, an ATR at 12 with an A320 depending on weight 19-39. I know that QAC is well aware of this.


Awesome, thanks for explaining this. I'm no expert on the technical side of things.

http://www.aip.net.nz/pdf/NZWF_52.1.pdf

Out of interest, is there a simple way of finding various aircraft ACN's?


Not particularly but there is lots of stuff on the internet but for aircraft like the A320 various configurations will have an influence e.g. the weight difference between the A320R and A320D at Air NZ.
 
Gangurru
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - September 2019

Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:22 am

NZ6 wrote:
Out of interest, is there a simple way of finding various aircraft ACN's?


These are listed in the airport planning documents on the aircraft manufactures’ websites.
https://www.boeing.com/commercial/airpo ... nuals.page
https://www.airbus.com/aircraft/support ... stics.html

The ACN is fixed, but the PCN is variable. Factors like the subsoil strength, tarmac surface, aircraft tire pressure and tarmac infrastructure all come into play. Generally speaking the PCN will represent the lowest strength parts of the tarmac and runway infrastructure.

For example, flights where the ACN exceeds the PCN could be restricted to higher strength parts of the tarmac.

Airports may chose to permit unrestricted flights from an aircraft with a PCN above ACN, but at a higher cost of more frequent maintenance and inspections.
 
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Zkpilot
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - September 2019

Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:55 am

NZ6 wrote:
NZ516 wrote:
planemanofnz wrote:
What about WKA, from AKL or CHC?

Cheers,

C.


There would certainly be a market for those routes. But the Wanaka airport needs the upgrade to make it happen runway & tarmac strengthening etc. An expansion to the terminal will likely be needed. But unfortunately the locals don't want it to go ahead so there is the main stumbling block for it to be a goer.


There seems to be a common understanding WKA needs to be strengthened for any A320 services, it probably originated from the very likely assumption that given the runway is far to narrow and short for A320 flights it'll likely also be too weak

But is there any factual information on the runway strength itself or what aircraft can and cannot land there?

I'm hoping there is which will give clarity on the topic but get the feeling it's morphed into something bigger than it is.

As planemanofnz said, NZ ran regular B1900 flights in there so we know it's capable of at least that... but after that, it's a bit of a mystery unless you have an engineering degree or if it's listed somewhere


It has a PCN of 12 F/B/X/T, GP 8, 1200m X 30m with 90m clear width.

So Flexible surface, Medium Strength, High Tyre Pressure allowed, by Technical evaluation.

Going by that it should actually be ok for A320 with a runway extension. Will need a minimum of 500m extension if not 700m+ to comply with modern stopping zone requirements and to operate with max payload. ZQN is 1777m for comparison and is similar in terms of altitude, temps etc. ZQN doesn’t comply with those new stopping requirements but gets by under grandfather rules.

*edit - hadn’t seen those other replies above but hope this still helps.
59 types. 41 countries. 24 airlines.
 
NZ6
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - September 2019

Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:12 am

Zkpilot wrote:
NZ6 wrote:
NZ516 wrote:

There would certainly be a market for those routes. But the Wanaka airport needs the upgrade to make it happen runway & tarmac strengthening etc. An expansion to the terminal will likely be needed. But unfortunately the locals don't want it to go ahead so there is the main stumbling block for it to be a goer.


There seems to be a common understanding WKA needs to be strengthened for any A320 services, it probably originated from the very likely assumption that given the runway is far to narrow and short for A320 flights it'll likely also be too weak

But is there any factual information on the runway strength itself or what aircraft can and cannot land there?

I'm hoping there is which will give clarity on the topic but get the feeling it's morphed into something bigger than it is.

As planemanofnz said, NZ ran regular B1900 flights in there so we know it's capable of at least that... but after that, it's a bit of a mystery unless you have an engineering degree or if it's listed somewhere


It has a PCN of 12 F/B/X/T, GP 8, 1200m X 30m with 90m clear width.

So Flexible surface, Medium Strength, High Tyre Pressure allowed, by Technical evaluation.

Going by that it should actually be ok for A320 with a runway extension. Will need a minimum of 500m extension if not 700m+ to comply with modern stopping zone requirements and to operate with max payload. ZQN is 1777m for comparison and is similar in terms of altitude, temps etc. ZQN doesn’t comply with those new stopping requirements but gets by under grandfather rules.

*edit - hadn’t seen those other replies above but hope this still helps.


it does, good to know. cheers
 
aerokiwi
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - September 2019

Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:39 am

planemanofnz wrote:
NZ516 wrote:
planemanofnz wrote:
What about WKA, from AKL or CHC?

Cheers,

C.


There would certainly be a market for those routes. But the Wanaka airport needs the upgrade to make it happen runway & tarmac strengthening etc. An expansion to the terminal will likely be needed. But unfortunately the locals don't want it to go ahead so there is the main stumbling block for it to be a goer.

I haven't followed WKA closely - had just thought the infrastructure that supported the NZ B1900D flights in the past would still be there and able to support 3C CV580 ones now - but appreciate this might not be the case.

Cheers,

C.


Was this the ZQN-WKA service? I think I remember seeing route maps of ZQN-WKA and ZQN-Te Anau. Were these B1900s or did they ATR those? And if the 1900s, how did they position them into ZQN in the first place? I could be wrong though and it's all a figment.
 
aerokiwi
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - September 2019

Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:45 am

NZ6 wrote:
zkncj wrote:
Some of the ex-AS 734 combi’s would probably be the best option for 3C (would require the CHT runway to be upgraded).

Would probably work for routes like IUE too, were there is demand for fresh cargo as an life line to the island.


A combi would be the way to go for sure.

- I'd have concerns about the noise and possible future restrictions that may be imposed with older aircraft.
- IUE doesn't have that much 'fresh' cargo demand. Seafood, meat and fruit veggie are all locally sourced. Don't get me wrong there is some but all dry goods come in by sea which is obviously significantly cheaper and you're able to import on bulk.


I noticed FedEx just took delivery of the first 738 P2F conversion. Presumably this will become increasingly common and comply noise wise. Not sure about combi versions though. Never been a fan of the 734 but the 738 could be a really interesting choice.

My wifi connection is a little bung at the mo so could anyone tell me which routes Air Chathams still has regular CV580 services on? Aside from NLK. I think it might be fun to give it a go next time I'm over.
 
NZ516
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - September 2019

Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:04 am

aerokiwi wrote:
planemanofnz wrote:
NZ516 wrote:

There would certainly be a market for those routes. But the Wanaka airport needs the upgrade to make it happen runway & tarmac strengthening etc. An expansion to the terminal will likely be needed. But unfortunately the locals don't want it to go ahead so there is the main stumbling block for it to be a goer.

I haven't followed WKA closely - had just thought the infrastructure that supported the NZ B1900D flights in the past would still be there and able to support 3C CV580 ones now - but appreciate this might not be the case.

Cheers,

C.


Was this the ZQN-WKA service? I think I remember seeing route maps of ZQN-WKA and ZQN-Te Anau. Were these B1900s or did they ATR those? And if the 1900s, how did they position them into ZQN in the first place? I could be wrong though and it's all a figment.


These Beech 1900 flights were from Christchurch to Wanaka not from Queenstown. Mainly the Beech was flying CHC to HKK and CHC to BHE routes then in the afternoon flew down. Now these aircraft are retired from service. But by the posts above it could be possible for the Q300 to fly into WKA regularly with the condition of the existing runway.
 
NZ516
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - September 2019

Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:09 am

aerokiwi wrote:
NZ6 wrote:
zkncj wrote:
Some of the ex-AS 734 combi’s would probably be the best option for 3C (would require the CHT runway to be upgraded).

Would probably work for routes like IUE too, were there is demand for fresh cargo as an life line to the island.


A combi would be the way to go for sure.

- I'd have concerns about the noise and possible future restrictions that may be imposed with older aircraft.
- IUE doesn't have that much 'fresh' cargo demand. Seafood, meat and fruit veggie are all locally sourced. Don't get me wrong there is some but all dry goods come in by sea which is obviously significantly cheaper and you're able to import on bulk.


I noticed FedEx just took delivery of the first 738 P2F conversion. Presumably this will become increasingly common and comply noise wise. Not sure about combi versions though. Never been a fan of the 734 but the 738 could be a really interesting choice.

My wifi connection is a little bung at the mo so could anyone tell me which routes Air Chathams still has regular CV580 services on? Aside from NLK. I think it might be fun to give it a go next time I'm over.


The only other CV 580 flights are AKL, WLG and CHC to The Chathams.
 
aerokiwi
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - September 2019

Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:18 am

NZ516 wrote:
aerokiwi wrote:
planemanofnz wrote:
I haven't followed WKA closely - had just thought the infrastructure that supported the NZ B1900D flights in the past would still be there and able to support 3C CV580 ones now - but appreciate this might not be the case.

Cheers,

C.


Was this the ZQN-WKA service? I think I remember seeing route maps of ZQN-WKA and ZQN-Te Anau. Were these B1900s or did they ATR those? And if the 1900s, how did they position them into ZQN in the first place? I could be wrong though and it's all a figment.


These Beech 1900 flights were from Christchurch to Wanaka not from Queenstown. Mainly the Beech was flying CHC to HKK and CHC to BHE routes then in the afternoon flew down. Now these aircraft are retired from service. But by the posts above it could be possible for the Q300 to fly into WKA regularly with the condition of the existing runway.


Ah thanks for that. And the Chathams flight info too. Yeh it would seem like a reasonable entry to use props from CHC or WLG. Saves the runway and terminal upgrade and keeps locals inside as limits the inflow of tourism. Can understand the concern that Wanaka becomes another Queenstown.
 
DavidByrne
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - September 2019

Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:09 pm

NZ516 wrote:
The only other CV 580 flights are AKL, WLG and CHC to The Chathams.

I believe that the CV580 did AKL-WAG Fri afternoon/Sat/Sun but has been (temporarily?) replaced by the Tauck ATR-72 during the winter months. Not sure what happens when Tauck tours ramp up for summer. Assume the SF-340s are serviced over the weekend. Anyone in the know on this?
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NZ6
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - September 2019

Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:07 pm

aerokiwi wrote:
I noticed FedEx just took delivery of the first 738 P2F conversion. Presumably this will become increasingly common and comply noise wise. Not sure about combi versions though. Never been a fan of the 734 but the 738 could be a really interesting choice.

My wifi connection is a little bung at the mo so could anyone tell me which routes Air Chathams still has regular CV580 services on? Aside from NLK. I think it might be fun to give it a go next time I'm over.


I'm making a small (or big) assumption they won't have significant cash flow to invest in a newer model, especially given a business case won't show any high usage.

Based on this I envisaged a well-loved classic being picked offshore. After all, 3C has a bit of history for picking up/using aging aircraft.
 
NZ6
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - September 2019

Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:30 pm

Just on 3C, I believe they won't want to compete with NZ in any markets If you look at their network, obviously CHT is their home route but outside of this they have WAG, WHK and PPQ which are routes NZ has closed down. With regard to NLK, I'm assuming conversations were held and assurances given by that NZ have shown no desire to fly there which gives some level of comfort to 3C.

There's then the carter business which is where they're using the ATR.

This is not a pro-NZ post. I'm just wondering how interested 3C are about entering any type of market where they'll have to compete with NZ. Such as WKA that'll potentially affect NZ's ZQN flights.

I think 3C can still grow in our home market. There's KAT, WSZ, OAM, MON, PCN, MRO, KKR and maybe even TEU

Image
 
a7ala
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - September 2019

Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:34 am

NZ6 wrote:
Just on 3C, I believe they won't want to compete with NZ in any markets If you look at their network, obviously CHT is their home route but outside of this they have WAG, WHK and PPQ which are routes NZ has closed down. With regard to NLK, I'm assuming conversations were held and assurances given by that NZ have shown no desire to fly there which gives some level of comfort to 3C.

There's then the carter business which is where they're using the ATR.

This is not a pro-NZ post. I'm just wondering how interested 3C are about entering any type of market where they'll have to compete with NZ. Such as WKA that'll potentially affect NZ's ZQN flights.

I think 3C can still grow in our home market. There's KAT, WSZ, OAM, MON, PCN, MRO, KKR and maybe even TEU

Image


Whakatane-Wellington and Whanganui-Wellington seem logical next steps given shorter sector lengths plus they already have a presence in all 3.
 
DavidByrne
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - September 2019

Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:46 am

a7ala wrote:
Whakatane-Wellington and Whanganui-Wellington seem logical next steps given shorter sector lengths plus they already have a presence in all 3.

3C have explicitly said that they are not considering WHK-WLG, so I rule that out.

As far as WAG-WLG is concerned, I think most of the traffic when NZ operated that route would have been connecting traffic, not point-to-point as required by 3C's business model. As a boy, I grew up in WAG but even when NZ served the WLG route we would never have dreamt of flying down when you could drive in 2h 45m.

I think there's more chance of WAG-CHC, but a Saab would probably be too large. A Metroliner might be "right-size" but would require some scheduling gymnastics to get it to WAG. Not saying it couldn't be done, but it might have implications for the rest of the network. However if 3C thought it could succeed where NZ failed on CHC-WSZ then basing a Metroliner in CHC and operating to WSZ morning and evening and to WAG in the middle of the day might be an option. This would be a very outside chance though.

A way left-field option would be to base a Metroliner in CHC and operate CHC-WAG, CHC-TUO (operated for one summer season by Mt Cook with HS748s a gazillion years ago) and CHC-GIS, effectively connecting most of the main towns not served from CHC by NZ.
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NZ6
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - September 2019

Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:44 am

DavidByrne wrote:
a7ala wrote:
Whakatane-Wellington and Whanganui-Wellington seem logical next steps given shorter sector lengths plus they already have a presence in all 3.

3C have explicitly said that they are not considering WHK-WLG, so I rule that out.

As far as WAG-WLG is concerned, I think most of the traffic when NZ operated that route would have been connecting traffic, not point-to-point as required by 3C's business model. As a boy, I grew up in WAG but even when NZ served the WLG route we would never have dreamt of flying down when you could drive in 2h 45m.

I think there's more chance of WAG-CHC, but a Saab would probably be too large. A Metroliner might be "right-size" but would require some scheduling gymnastics to get it to WAG. Not saying it couldn't be done, but it might have implications for the rest of the network. However if 3C thought it could succeed where NZ failed on CHC-WSZ then basing a Metroliner in CHC and operating to WSZ morning and evening and to WAG in the middle of the day might be an option. This would be a very outside chance though.

A way left-field option would be to base a Metroliner in CHC and operate CHC-WAG, CHC-TUO (operated for one summer season by Mt Cook with HS748s a gazillion years ago) and CHC-GIS, effectively connecting most of the main towns not served from CHC by NZ.


The logic here is connecting points on the map aka current ports between the next biggest city.

Works for major international ports without direct flights aka CDG-DXB and DXB-AKL creating an AKL-CDG connection but people won't fly AKL-WAG-WLG so unless there is independent demand WLG-WAG it's pointless.
 
DavidByrne
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - September 2019

Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:41 am

NZ6 wrote:
The logic here is connecting points on the map aka current ports between the next biggest city.

Works for major international ports without direct flights aka CDG-DXB and DXB-AKL creating an AKL-CDG connection but people won't fly AKL-WAG-WLG so unless there is independent demand WLG-WAG it's pointless.

I absolutely agree that WAG-WLG would be pointless, but I don't understand your logic at all! In the CDG-DXB-AKL example, DXB, the midpoint, is a major hub. In the AKL-WAG-WLG example, the hubs are at AKL and WLG. Have I missed something? Or have I just explained what you were trying to say?
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NZ6
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - September 2019

Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:15 pm

DavidByrne wrote:
NZ6 wrote:
The logic here is connecting points on the map aka current ports between the next biggest city.

Works for major international ports without direct flights aka CDG-DXB and DXB-AKL creating an AKL-CDG connection but people won't fly AKL-WAG-WLG so unless there is independent demand WLG-WAG it's pointless.

I absolutely agree that WAG-WLG would be pointless, but I don't understand your logic at all! In the CDG-DXB-AKL example, DXB, the midpoint, is a major hub. In the AKL-WAG-WLG example, the hubs are at AKL and WLG. Have I missed something? Or have I just explained what you were trying to say?


Sorry if it wasn't very clear, I was posting that quickly during the ads on TV.

You've basically got the gist of where I was coming from. Without WAG-WLG or WHK-WLG demand on its own you're left trying to achieve two possible things

- Building a hub and spoke network, In this case, WAG/WHK would need to be the hub and it's kind of where my example comes from. This design builds many different routes but here you only gain AKL-WLG via WHK or WAG.
- Connecting two cities which can't be connected directly. NZ's AKL-LAX-LHR or QF's MEL-PER-LHR are two examples. Obviously, with JQ and NZ having over 20 A320 flights between AKL-WLG daily this isn't the case.

So it comes back to, does the original poster or 3C believe WHK and or WAG would generate enough patronage ex WLG to those ports?

AKL works as it's the major international gateway for travellers heading onwards, more corporates are based in AKL or have large/main office there, there are more sea imports/exports from AKL than WLG, there's a lot of warehousing and manufacturing in parts of AKL. The list could go on, unfortunately, AKL drives more demand.
 
a7ala
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - September 2019

Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:39 pm

NZ6 wrote:
DavidByrne wrote:
NZ6 wrote:
The logic here is connecting points on the map aka current ports between the next biggest city.

Works for major international ports without direct flights aka CDG-DXB and DXB-AKL creating an AKL-CDG connection but people won't fly AKL-WAG-WLG so unless there is independent demand WLG-WAG it's pointless.

I absolutely agree that WAG-WLG would be pointless, but I don't understand your logic at all! In the CDG-DXB-AKL example, DXB, the midpoint, is a major hub. In the AKL-WAG-WLG example, the hubs are at AKL and WLG. Have I missed something? Or have I just explained what you were trying to say?


Sorry if it wasn't very clear, I was posting that quickly during the ads on TV.

You've basically got the gist of where I was coming from. Without WAG-WLG or WHK-WLG demand on its own you're left trying to achieve two possible things

- Building a hub and spoke network, In this case, WAG/WHK would need to be the hub and it's kind of where my example comes from. This design builds many different routes but here you only gain AKL-WLG via WHK or WAG.
- Connecting two cities which can't be connected directly. NZ's AKL-LAX-LHR or QF's MEL-PER-LHR are two examples. Obviously, with JQ and NZ having over 20 A320 flights between AKL-WLG daily this isn't the case.

So it comes back to, does the original poster or 3C believe WHK and or WAG would generate enough patronage ex WLG to those ports?

AKL works as it's the major international gateway for travellers heading onwards, more corporates are based in AKL or have large/main office there, there are more sea imports/exports from AKL than WLG, there's a lot of warehousing and manufacturing in parts of AKL. The list could go on, unfortunately, AKL drives more demand.


3C is never going to build a "hub" business thats meaningful. Passengers will have to rely on other airlines to either self-connect to, or maybe interline through closer ties with NZ. In that regard, WLG provides as good and in many cases a better option than AKL (particularly through to South Island) domestically.
 
NZ6
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - September 2019

Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:16 am

a7ala wrote:
NZ6 wrote:
DavidByrne wrote:
I absolutely agree that WAG-WLG would be pointless, but I don't understand your logic at all! In the CDG-DXB-AKL example, DXB, the midpoint, is a major hub. In the AKL-WAG-WLG example, the hubs are at AKL and WLG. Have I missed something? Or have I just explained what you were trying to say?


Sorry if it wasn't very clear, I was posting that quickly during the ads on TV.

You've basically got the gist of where I was coming from. Without WAG-WLG or WHK-WLG demand on its own you're left trying to achieve two possible things

- Building a hub and spoke network, In this case, WAG/WHK would need to be the hub and it's kind of where my example comes from. This design builds many different routes but here you only gain AKL-WLG via WHK or WAG.
- Connecting two cities which can't be connected directly. NZ's AKL-LAX-LHR or QF's MEL-PER-LHR are two examples. Obviously, with JQ and NZ having over 20 A320 flights between AKL-WLG daily this isn't the case.

So it comes back to, does the original poster or 3C believe WHK and or WAG would generate enough patronage ex WLG to those ports?

AKL works as it's the major international gateway for travellers heading onwards, more corporates are based in AKL or have large/main office there, there are more sea imports/exports from AKL than WLG, there's a lot of warehousing and manufacturing in parts of AKL. The list could go on, unfortunately, AKL drives more demand.


3C is never going to build a "hub" business thats meaningful. Passengers will have to rely on other airlines to either self-connect to, or maybe interline through closer ties with NZ. In that regard, WLG provides as good and in many cases a better option than AKL (particularly through to South Island) domestically.


So what exactly makes WHK-WLG and WAG-WLG the "logical next steps". I'm not trying to overthink the words used but given there're not building a hub and spoke network it essentially means all segments are now isolated individual routes. What makes WAG-WLG more logical that say, AKL-KAT or WLG-TUO or CHC-WKA/MON?

All this aside, when you look at the growth of 3C in recent times. Do we think it's wise for them to continue to grow at this rate or consolidate and get some cashflow flowing
 
NZ516
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - September 2019

Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:08 am

Travellers getting a 'raw deal' from Auckland Airport, airline lobby group says

Auckland International Airport has been criticised by an Australasian airline lobby group for offering a suboptimal experience at a high cost to travellers.

"Auckland Airport tells us that it is investing billions of dollars in infrastructure – this is completely disingenuous," Samuel said

Airlines for Australia and New Zealand (A4ANZ) chairman Graeme Samuel said airport users in New Zealand – particularly travellers using Auckland Airport – were getting a "raw deal in both cost and experience", but a proposed change to New Zealand civil aviation legislation could put an end to that.

A4ANZ, a member funded group advocating for Australasian airlines including Air New Zealand, Qantas and Virgin Australia, has a history of putting the boot into Auckland Airport.

Auckland Airport is undertaking a huge development programme in which it will spend about $2 billion over the next five years, as part of a 30-year "airport of the future" vision which includes a second runway and combined domestic and international terminal.

Samuel said Auckland Airport had proposed to significantly increase charges for all airlines, for example, landing fees at Auckland were likely to more than triple over the next five to 10 years.



more story and video:
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/indust ... group-says

.
 
NZ6
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - September 2019

Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:27 am

NZ516 wrote:
So looks like no service Whakatane to WLG just the bigger aircraft to AKL. However Air Chathams did mention a year ago if the AKL to Kapiti route performs well they may look at linking Kapiti to Christchurch.


CHC-PPQ is a route I'd agree with.

PPQ is the alternative to WLG like the one AKL so badly needs, although WLG is close enough for many there is a small niche market in the upper region. One NZ turned it's back on in lieu of capacity and lower cost ex WLG but one 3C could own.

Could 3C operate out of NZNE to WLG with a SAAB? The runway is actually longer than WHK but something NZ couldn't actually match them with. It may appeal with some living on the north or up north as an alternative way of getting to WLG without having to deal with AKL's traffic. If you lived on the North Shore you could probably leave home at 0640 for a 0730 flight, park for a few dollars and be home within 30mins of wheels down on your return.

Given the size of 30 seats, only a very small 'terminal' space would be needed and while last time I was there, there wasn't any terminal as such, could the Aeroclub be used in some way on a 6-month term? There are probably some issues like with fire rescue etc as I'm not sure if there is any or what the rules around that are. I know Barrier Air do scheduled passenger flights from there.

Also, JQ and NZ can do fares for $39 while 3C would be a couple of hundred plus. But, if it's a business trip, NZ fares can often be up in that range anyway.

The biggest issue would be the runway itself, NZNE has no PCN rating and I have no idea what ESWL2500 is and if the runway is even strong enough for the SAAB, probably not.
 
NZ516
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - September 2019

Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:27 am

The North Shore airport runway is too short for the Saab at only 791m. I would think Whenuapai would be the better option to look into for a second airport serving Auckland.
 
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hic787
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - September 2019

Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:45 am

NZ516 wrote:
The North Shore airport runway is too short for the Saab at only 791m. I would think Whenuapai would be the better option to look into for a second airport serving Auckland.


The runway at NZNE is also only about 8 meters wide
 
NZ6
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - September 2019

Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:45 am

hic787 wrote:
The runway at NZNE is also only about 8 meters wide


NZ516 wrote:
The North Shore airport runway is too short for the Saab at only 791m. I would think Whenuapai would be the better option to look into for a second airport serving Auckland.


You are both very correct, I had in my head that it was longer and wider. I've just looked it up and realised how small it is.

Feeling a bit embarrassed by my comments now. :blush:
 
zkncj
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - September 2019

Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:43 am

NZ516 wrote:
The North Shore airport runway is too short for the Saab at only 791m. I would think Whenuapai would be the better option to look into for a second airport serving Auckland.


That or the likes of Ardmore (NZAR).

03R/21L at NZAR is 1,411m with room to extend to the EAST
 
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Zkpilot
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - September 2019

Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:08 am

zkncj wrote:
NZ516 wrote:
The North Shore airport runway is too short for the Saab at only 791m. I would think Whenuapai would be the better option to look into for a second airport serving Auckland.


That or the likes of Ardmore (NZAR).

03R/21L at NZAR is 1,411m with room to extend to the EAST

NZAR is too close to AKL, is already the busiest airport in NZ (lots of training), and is subject to noise issues.
North Shore is a banana strip that you can just forget about.
It’s NZWP, maybe Kaukapakapa, otherwise doing a full new Air Force + civil airport at Marsden to replace WRE (and NZWP) along with improved rail and road links.
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DavidByrne
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - September 2019

Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:12 am

C'mon guys - let's forget the "second airport for Auckland" stuff. The only reason it's even in the news is because Luxon is trying to put pressure on AIAL to build the new domestic terminal and on AC/NZTA/various super funds to pull finger and fund a rapid transit link to AKL for AT to operate. Can't believe so many have bought this possibility hook, line and sinker. It's politics, nothing more. Read Luxon's comments carefully - it's plain as daylight. And as for 3C operating from Whenuapai/Ardmore /Dairy Flat - there's no way they'd split their meagre operations between two airports with all the cost involved. Far too risky for a small carrier for sure.
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DavidByrne
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - September 2019

Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:24 am

NZ6 wrote:
CHC-PPQ is a route I'd agree with.

PPQ is the alternative to WLG like the one AKL so badly needs...

Agree with your first point - I should have mentioned CHC-PPQ in my earlier post about possible 3C routes from CHC. In fact, I'd say PPQ would be the front-runner.

But as for there needing to be an alternative to AKL - that's where we part company. There isn't a NEED at all. As per my previous post, it's just a Luxon ploy, and I'd bet dollars to doughnuts nothing happens at Whenuapai. Ever! The moment, if it ever existed, was in the 2000s and since then there are tens of thousands more residents ready for insurrection if a serious proposal comes through. And as for Infratil being prepared to sink $100m into the venture - I absolutely don't believe it. They'refar too canny with their money for that.
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NZ6
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - September 2019

Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:25 am

DavidByrne wrote:
C'mon guys - let's forget the "second airport for Auckland" stuff. The only reason it's even in the news is because Luxon is trying to put pressure on AIAL to build the new domestic terminal and on AC/NZTA/various super funds to pull finger and fund a rapid transit link to AKL for AT to operate. Can't believe so many have bought this possibility hook, line and sinker. It's politics, nothing more. Read Luxon's comments carefully - it's plain as daylight. And as for 3C operating from Whenuapai/Ardmore /Dairy Flat - there's no way they'd split their meagre operations between two airports with all the cost involved. Far too risky for a small carrier for sure.


While you're correct, I believe a second-tier airport could work... the North Shore itself is bigger than cities like Hamilton and Dunedin and traffic is only getting worse. I've just done a google map search, Browns Bay to the Airport to arrive by 0800 tomorrow, the quickest route via the Waterview Tunnel 1hr 25, if you're forced down to Manukau and Puhinui due to a breakdown or something 1hr 40mins. It's longer than the actual flight.

It won't happen though as there's no second airfield. Parakai isn't close enough now but is a long term option, north shore as I've worked out today is waaaaaay too small. Whenuapai, while the airport is there it's just a No!!!

So unless somehow somewhere someone builds a second airport it just won't happen.
 
NZ6
Posts: 1158
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - September 2019

Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:30 am

DavidByrne wrote:
Agree with your first point - I should have mentioned CHC-PPQ in my earlier post about possible 3C routes from CHC. In fact, I'd say PPQ would be the front-runner.

But as for there needing to be an alternative to AKL - that's where we part company. There isn't a NEED at all. As per my previous post, it's just a Luxon ploy, and I'd bet dollars to doughnuts nothing happens at Whenuapai. Ever! The moment, if it ever existed, was in the 2000s and since then there are tens of thousands more residents ready for insurrection if a serious proposal comes through. And as for Infratil being prepared to sink $100m into the venture - I absolutely don't believe it. They'refar too canny with their money for that.


I'll play with words here, there shouldn't be a need.

But with the population growing north, no high-speed mass transport options, car parking robbery and dismal facilities there becomes a need.

I can only see one improving, that's still a maybe and that's the dismal facilities in 10+ years
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 6971
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - September 2019

Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:46 am

I didn’t see it mentioned here, QF freight began operating 748s through AKL operated by Atlas in full Atlas colours last week, scheduled through AKL every Monday. There is an extra rotation this week from AVV bringing V8 Supercars over.

Good to see, and first visit of a 748F to AKL. KE will bring the PAX version through this entire NW period starting late October. KE didn’t visit last year.
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 6971
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - September 2019

Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:21 am

I notice NZ’s new ICN services will now depart at 5 different times ex AKL, 4 between 1035-1155 with the 5th at 1420, returning they depart ICN between 2155-2215 4 days with the 5th at 2355.

I wasn’t aware how full ICN was until NZ announced services which had a single departure time.

AKL 1200 ICN 1955
ICN 2145 AKL 1255

That’s seemed late so at least most of the flights have similar or slightly earlier departures ex AKL. I’d say over time they will be looking to get a 1730/1800 ICN arrival 1900/1930 departure to fit in with NZ’s other Asian services ex AKL between 1000/1100.

I wonder what the chances of PVG slots in the early evening are like? Probably not great? Although that is a route overtime they were looking to go 2 daily, is that still the see slots permitting? They ran additional CNY services for 2-3 years with a midnight arrival 0200 departure ex PVG, the plan was an early evening arrival initially midnight departure.
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