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CarbonFibre
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Smoky A350!

Sun Sep 01, 2019 8:58 am

BA's A350 is spending the weekend in Shannon for some final crew training before DXB starts tomorrow.

Some of the go-arounds have been pretty smoky! https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] ... /contacts/
 
WIederling
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Re: Smoky A350!

Sun Sep 01, 2019 9:43 am

go arounds? ( i.e. drastic thrust increase without having yet reached a stable thrust state )
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Faro
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Re: Smoky A350!

Sun Sep 01, 2019 9:57 am

WIederling wrote:
go arounds? ( i.e. drastic thrust increase without having yet reached a stable thrust state )



Understood...but even then, that is a turbojet-707-ish level of smoke...I find it quite surprising...


Faro
The chalice not my son
 
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DL747400
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Re: Smoky A350!

Sun Sep 01, 2019 10:03 am

That’s just terrible. The EU should outlaw this immediately and BA should be fined. (Sarcasm)
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zeke
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Re: Smoky A350!

Sun Sep 01, 2019 10:41 am

Must be a problem with the air data system on that particular aircraft, the ACTDS (automatic chem trail delivery system) is not supposed to activate until they are in cruise.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
KFTG
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Re: Smoky A350!

Sun Sep 01, 2019 10:41 am

The edit of the photo could be "revealing" more exhaust than would otherwise be noticeable by the naked eye.
 
RvA
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Re: Smoky A350!

Sun Sep 01, 2019 10:46 am

KFTG wrote:
The edit of the photo could be "revealing" more exhaust than would otherwise be noticeable by the naked eye.


I think that could be the key to the answer. All jet engines emit plenty of “crap” but it isn’t as bad nor pronounced as it was on say a 707 back in the day but it’s still considerable but usually not as clearly visible. You can find pictures out there of for example a Ferrari at full throttle that also looks like it’s running a 707 engine. Very interesting picture nonetheless!
 
KFTG
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Re: Smoky A350!

Sun Sep 01, 2019 10:51 am

Specifically, substantial adjustments to contrast are the "norm" for aviation photography - especially here, but the practice is widespread.
The idea being to make the "blacks black" and the "whites white", despite that likely not being the "true" conditions witnessed in person.
 
PaxPicti
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Re: Smoky A350!

Sun Sep 01, 2019 10:53 am

Not a normal go-around since the #1 engine appears to have been shut down. They must be doing engine-out simulation.
 
VV
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Re: Smoky A350!

Sun Sep 01, 2019 11:00 am

zeke wrote:
Must be a problem with the air data system on that particular aircraft, the ACTDS (automatic chem trail delivery system) is not supposed to activate until they are in cruise.


I think you are mistaken.
 
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kwidenka
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Re: Smoky A350!

Sun Sep 01, 2019 11:08 am

[quote="KFTG" despite that likely not being the "true" conditions witnessed in person.[/quote]
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TurboJet707
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Re: Smoky A350!

Sun Sep 01, 2019 11:20 am

And suddenly this sophisticated and efficient big twin is starting to look really charismatic :D

Love it.
 
JesseCasserly
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Re: Smoky A350!

Sun Sep 01, 2019 11:32 am

It's surprisingly normal enough. You only really see this when a turbofan is increasing thrust, not when it's at a stable thrust level (unless it's a PW4000!). Basically, when the throttle is firewalled and the engine is accelerating, which takes a couple of seconds, there's is more jet fuel being pumped into the engine than the current engine speed is capable of cleanly burning in order to speed up! Once the engine has reached it's selected thrust, it can perfectly manage the flow of fuel and the combustion is far cleaner!
 
sandbender
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Re: Smoky A350!

Sun Sep 01, 2019 11:52 am

VV wrote:
zeke wrote:
Must be a problem with the air data system on that particular aircraft, the ACTDS (automatic chem trail delivery system) is not supposed to activate until they are in cruise.


I think you are mistaken.


He most certainly is. Everyone knows that the ACTDS chem-trail delivery system has be phased out in favor of the SARCASM system. :D
 
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zeke
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Re: Smoky A350!

Sun Sep 01, 2019 11:55 am

:bigthumbsup:
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
VV
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Re: Smoky A350!

Sun Sep 01, 2019 12:15 pm

sandbender wrote:
VV wrote:
zeke wrote:
Must be a problem with the air data system on that particular aircraft, the ACTDS (automatic chem trail delivery system) is not supposed to activate until they are in cruise.


I think you are mistaken.


He most certainly is. Everyone knows that the ACTDS chem-trail delivery system has be phased out in favor of the SARCASM system. :D


Does it mean there's a real issue or what?
 
BrianWilkes
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Re: Smoky A350!

Sun Sep 01, 2019 12:36 pm

Almost every aircraft will do this one a go around some are worse then others!
 
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DL717
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Re: Smoky A350!

Sun Sep 01, 2019 12:57 pm

Looks like someone had a little water in the go juice.
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reltney
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Re: Smoky A350!

Sun Sep 01, 2019 1:00 pm

VV wrote:
sandbender wrote:
VV wrote:

I think you are mistaken.


He most certainly is. Everyone knows that the ACTDS chem-trail delivery system has be phased out in favor of the SARCASM system. :D


Does it mean there's a real issue or what?



Everyone knows the ACTDS system was phased out but they are still have problems with the SARCASM system due to the additives in fuels in some countries. There is an AD for the SARCASM system on later model planes not able to swallow the fuels from all countries. Attached inline with the SARCASM system fuel must pass thru the YGBSM filter to further take the impurities out of the system. Compliance is not required until 2021. The handwriting in the sky indicates the SARCASM system is not the end all be all system to correct the ACTDS shortfalls which is why the YGBSM was developed by Boeing. Production delays no doubt have occurred due to the BS department being backed up by other issues. More to come...
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OUTLAW KNIVES.

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Luftymatt
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Re: Smoky A350!

Sun Sep 01, 2019 1:36 pm

PaxPicti wrote:
Not a normal go-around since the #1 engine appears to have been shut down. They must be doing engine-out simulation.


No they're not. Engine failure practice is reserved for the simulator, not for base training.
chase the sun
 
Some1Somewhere
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Re: Smoky A350!

Sun Sep 01, 2019 1:40 pm

 
CriticalPoint
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Re: Smoky A350!

Sun Sep 01, 2019 2:33 pm

VV wrote:
sandbender wrote:
VV wrote:

I think you are mistaken.


He most certainly is. Everyone knows that the ACTDS chem-trail delivery system has be phased out in favor of the SARCASM system. :D


Does it mean there's a real issue or what?


Sometimes when you go TOGA thrust the Bleeds will over pressure and the chemtrail outflow valve will open to relive the pressure. It’s temporary, typically the chemtrails are not released until above FL300.....like Zeke said
 
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CarbonFibre
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Re: Smoky A350!

Sun Sep 01, 2019 2:50 pm

It's certainly done a lot of circuits these last two days. https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/g-xwba
 
PaxPicti
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Re: Smoky A350!

Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:10 pm

Luftymatt wrote:
PaxPicti wrote:
Not a normal go-around since the #1 engine appears to have been shut down. They must be doing engine-out simulation.


No they're not. Engine failure practice is reserved for the simulator, not for base training.

So why is the #1 engine fan stationary? You can see the blades clearly.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: Smoky A350!

Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:15 pm

PaxPicti wrote:
Luftymatt wrote:
PaxPicti wrote:
Not a normal go-around since the #1 engine appears to have been shut down. They must be doing engine-out simulation.


No they're not. Engine failure practice is reserved for the simulator, not for base training.

So why is the #1 engine fan stationary? You can see the blades clearly.


If the engine was shut down it wouldn’t have an exhaust trail.
 
OldAeroGuy
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Re: Smoky A350!

Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:23 pm

zeke wrote:
Must be a problem with the air data system on that particular aircraft, the ACTDS (automatic chem trail delivery system) is not supposed to activate until they are in cruise.


With a hard BREXIT emerging, maybe the English are taking more direct action against the Irish. :D
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
diverted
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Re: Smoky A350!

Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:24 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
PaxPicti wrote:
Luftymatt wrote:

No they're not. Engine failure practice is reserved for the simulator, not for base training.

So why is the #1 engine fan stationary? You can see the blades clearly.


If the engine was shut down it wouldn’t have an exhaust trail.


It's not stationary. Expand the photo and look at the other engine, same thing
Image
That's what you're seeing
 
VV
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Re: Smoky A350!

Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:50 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
VV wrote:
sandbender wrote:

He most certainly is. Everyone knows that the ACTDS chem-trail delivery system has be phased out in favor of the SARCASM system. :D


Does it mean there's a real issue or what?


Sometimes when you go TOGA thrust the Bleeds will over pressure and the chemtrail outflow valve will open to relive the pressure. It’s temporary, typically the chemtrails are not released until above FL300.....like Zeke said



When is SARCASM system relaxed?
 
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PolarRoute
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Re: Smoky A350!

Sun Sep 01, 2019 11:05 pm

VV wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
VV wrote:

Does it mean there's a real issue or what?


Sometimes when you go TOGA thrust the Bleeds will over pressure and the chemtrail outflow valve will open to relive the pressure. It’s temporary, typically the chemtrails are not released until above FL300.....like Zeke said



When is SARCASM system relaxed?


Holy smokes these posts! :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
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zeke
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Re: Smoky A350!

Sun Sep 01, 2019 11:06 pm

VV wrote:
When is SARCASM system relaxed?


Depends on who makes the engines and aircraft, as there are more and more aircraft flying these days, we don’t need to add as much by each aircraft like we did with the older generations. Friday afternoons see it ramping up slightly more of it as the traffic reduces over the weekend. It is sometimes referred to as the British Atmospheric Normalisation of Tropopause Environmental Readings system or The B.A.N.T.E.R. System, or B.S. in the industry vernacular.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
strfyr51
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Re: Smoky A350!

Sun Sep 01, 2019 11:31 pm

CarbonFibre wrote:
BA's A350 is spending the weekend in Shannon for some final crew training before DXB starts tomorrow.

Some of the go-arounds have been pretty smoky! https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] ... /contacts/

that could be "Jam acceleration" smoke with rthe sudden spool up of RPM and fuel flow. It doesn't appear to be excessive.
 
VV
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Re: Smoky A350!

Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:07 am

I have the feeling people try to avoid discussing this picture seriously.

Is there anything that motivates this attitude?
 
BlatantEcho
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Re: Smoky A350!

Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:48 am

VV wrote:
I have the feeling people try to avoid discussing this picture seriously.


You were close on the SARCASM system. You should dig deeper into that.
It works really well here, mostly.
 
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JannEejit
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Re: Smoky A350!

Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:44 am

I witnessed the same scene at GLA a couple of weeks ago when Virgin Atlantic's G-VLUX was based for a week's crew training. I also thought the 'smokiness' trailing behind both engines was reminiscent of 50 years prior turbojet on approach.
 
gloom
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Re: Smoky A350!

Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:25 am

Well, to relax S.A.R.C.A.S.M. a bit...

It's a bit like any diesel engine in your car. They're using heavy fuel (large particles, sticky). When you need to go from low-power mode (less fuel, less air) and accelerate, you just get more fuel into engine. But - you don't get more air until it spools up. So basically, for a few seconds you're going to have this fuel leaving the exhaust as it is. It will not be burnt at all. That's what you see.

Of course, one can argue whether (and to what degree) it can be controlled by electronic units adjusting etc. The sad thing is - when you need power, you need it. Not delayed by half a second, or two seconds. That's why they still tend to be visible. After all, the JetA1 has not changed that much, and what you see is exactly JetA1. Not a smoke, not any product of burning. Actually, quite opposite.

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RWA380
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Re: Smoky A350!

Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:31 am

Faro wrote:
WIederling wrote:
go arounds? ( i.e. drastic thrust increase without having yet reached a stable thrust state )



Understood...but even then, that is a turbojet-707-ish level of smoke...I find it quite surprising...


Faro


Not even close to the same amount of smoke, I can remember watching DC-8's & 707's disappearing in the thick black smoke of burning kerosene in the late 60's & early 70's on take-off. I agree to see any smoke coming from such a modern aircraft is unusual & I've never seen it before on an A-350, but if one is pushing large amounts of fuel through the system (aka goosing or flooring) it, no matter the environmental features of the technology can only mitigate so much.

707, 717, 720, 727-1/2, 737-1/2/3/4/5/7/8/9, 747-1/2/3, 757, 767-2/3/4, 777-2/3, DC8, DC9, MD80/2/7/8, D10-1/3/4, M11, L10-2/5, A300/310/319/320
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Re: Smoky A350!

Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:43 am

VV wrote:
I have the feeling people try to avoid discussing this picture seriously.

Is there anything that motivates this attitude?


It’s clearly a major issue that Airbus is trying to hide. Thankfully, someone is trying to shine a torch on this. Keep up the good work!
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lazyme
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Re: Smoky A350!

Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:02 am

They just prepare for the 2022 festivities of The Great Smog 70 years ago.
 
tropical
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Re: Smoky A350!

Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:19 am

scbriml wrote:
VV wrote:
I have the feeling people try to avoid discussing this picture seriously.

Is there anything that motivates this attitude?


It’s clearly a major issue that Airbus is trying to hide. Thankfully, someone is trying to shine a torch on this. Keep up the good work!


A worldwide grounding of the A350 is surely just a question of time now :wink2:
 
uta999
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Re: Smoky A350!

Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:29 am

Maybe Rolls-Royce are trying out that nifty fan coating that worked so well for them on the 787
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keesje
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Re: Smoky A350!

Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:47 pm

scbriml wrote:
VV wrote:
I have the feeling people try to avoid discussing this picture seriously.

Is there anything that motivates this attitude?


It’s clearly a major issue that Airbus is trying to hide. Thankfully, someone is trying to shine a torch on this. Keep up the good work!


I feel more attention should be paid to engine fuel efficiency and exhaust during go arounds and engine failure continued take-off's.. :angel:

https://youtu.be/IS91IQN_qYI
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VV
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Re: Smoky A350!

Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:36 pm

scbriml wrote:
VV wrote:
I have the feeling people try to avoid discussing this picture seriously.

Is there anything that motivates this attitude?


It’s clearly a major issue that Airbus is trying to hide. Thankfully, someone is trying to shine a torch on this. Keep up the good work!


There's no indication whatsoever about any concern. So why do we have all this dramatisation?

People were so motivated and firm about the fuel volume of the A350-1000 compared to A350-900 when we know it's not a big deal and yet people are elusive and evasive on the subject in this thread.

What's going on?
 
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PW100
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Re: Smoky A350!

Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:57 pm

VV wrote:
There's no indication whatsoever about any concern. So why do we have all this dramatisation?

People were so motivated and firm about the fuel volume of the A350-1000 compared to A350-900 when we know it's not a big deal and yet people are elusive and evasive on the subject in this thread.

What's going on?



I think it all started to get out of hand right here, when you missed the sarcasm . . .

VV wrote:
zeke wrote:
Must be a problem with the air data system on that particular aircraft, the ACTDS (automatic chem trail delivery system) is not supposed to activate until they are in cruise.


I think you are mistaken.
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SRQKEF
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Re: Smoky A350!

Mon Sep 02, 2019 4:02 pm

VV wrote:
scbriml wrote:
VV wrote:
I have the feeling people try to avoid discussing this picture seriously.

Is there anything that motivates this attitude?


It’s clearly a major issue that Airbus is trying to hide. Thankfully, someone is trying to shine a torch on this. Keep up the good work!


There's no indication whatsoever about any concern. So why do we have all this dramatisation?

People were so motivated and firm about the fuel volume of the A350-1000 compared to A350-900 when we know it's not a big deal and yet people are elusive and evasive on the subject in this thread.

What's going on?


Whoooosh.
Nothing compares to taking off in an empty 757 with full thrust!
 
DylanHarvey
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Re: Smoky A350!

Mon Sep 02, 2019 4:06 pm

Simply more proof the A350 is inferior to the 787. Relax, relax, relax it’s just a joke.
 
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SQ22
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Re: Smoky A350!

Mon Sep 02, 2019 4:20 pm

I hope you all enjoyed having some fun, thread will be locked.

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