Weatherwatcher1
Topic Author
Posts: 265
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:14 pm

Grounding Indian A320neos with PW engines in India will have consequences: DGCA

Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:23 pm

How likely is a grounding of PW A320neos in India? So far it has been on a plane by plane basis resulting in many engine changes.

https://www.livemint.com/companies/news ... 00977.html

Earlier in the day, the Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) had called an urgent meeting with officials of no-frills carriers IndiGo and GoAir to take stock of the glitches faced by P&W engines.

...“It is true that there have been cases of air turn back, in-flight shutdown or engine vibrations beyond the prescribed limits, but with strong mitigation measures in place and strict adherence to SOPs (standard operating procedures) by the airlines, the problem is being contained,"


It sounds like the mitigation actions are working, but there are a number of issues.

The DGCA further said major issues ever since the induction of P&W engine-powered A320neo aircraft included “combustion chamber distress (Block B and Block C)", “N2 transient vibration", “low-pressure turbine (LPT) failure", “gear box failure" and “#3 Bearing Pre Mod and Post Mod failures".


Grounding 40% of India’s domestic capacity after the collapse of Jet Airways would have serious ramifications. IndiGo has almost 100 A320neos in service. It is good to see the airlines and regulatory agencies working together to prevent the need for grounding airplanes.

Has there been any word on how many engines have been changed? More than 30 events in India is significant.
Last edited by SQ22 on Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:13 am, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Title was misleading
 
User avatar
DL747400
Posts: 722
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:04 pm

Re: Grounding A320neos will have consequences: DGCA

Sun Sep 01, 2019 8:05 pm

Why does it seem as though India has been struggling much more than other countries to handle the latest in aviation airframe and engine technology?
From First to Worst: The history of Airliners.net.

All posts reflect my opinions, not those of my employer or any other company.
 
A388
Posts: 7891
Joined: Mon May 21, 2001 3:48 am

Re: Grounding A320neos will have consequences: DGCA

Sun Sep 01, 2019 8:08 pm

The title of this thread is very misleading. It should read Indian A320NEO grounding.

A388
 
Weatherwatcher1
Topic Author
Posts: 265
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:14 pm

Re: Grounding A320neos will have consequences: DGCA

Sun Sep 01, 2019 8:09 pm

A388 wrote:
The title of this thread is very misleading. It should read Indian A320NEO grounding.

A388


I copied the title from the article.
 
Jamie514
Posts: 149
Joined: Thu May 18, 2017 4:36 pm

Re: Grounding A320neos will have consequences: DGCA

Sun Sep 01, 2019 8:39 pm

No dispute that they are having high rate of IFSD and reliability concerns, but it surely can't all be up to Airbus and Pratt when the incident rate is dramatically lower for everyone else using the same equipment.
 
User avatar
N14AZ
Posts: 3798
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:19 pm

Re: Grounding A320neos will have consequences: DGCA

Sun Sep 01, 2019 8:55 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
IndiGo has almost 100 A320neos in service.

Is this correct? So many have been already delivered to a single customer?
 
BOSAero
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:32 am

Re: Grounding A320neos will have consequences: DGCA

Sun Sep 01, 2019 9:10 pm

The DGCA will probably follow the FAAs lead on this. Meaning no grounding. I personally think the fleet should be grounded. This way Pratt & Whitney will come up with a solution a bit quicker. Some operators have way more at stake than others.
 
User avatar
Goodbye
Posts: 928
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2001 1:41 pm

Re: Grounding A320neos will have consequences: DGCA

Sun Sep 01, 2019 9:22 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:

I copied the title from the article.


Context is everything. The website is Indian, therefore the title does not need to clarify where they are talking about. This is an international website, you DO need to clarify where you are talking about.
✈︎
 
User avatar
Goodbye
Posts: 928
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2001 1:41 pm

Re: Grounding A320neos will have consequences: DGCA

Sun Sep 01, 2019 9:24 pm

N14AZ wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
IndiGo has almost 100 A320neos in service.

Is this correct? So many have been already delivered to a single customer?


They already have 92! I was shocked too!
✈︎
 
User avatar
PW100
Posts: 3817
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 9:17 pm

Re: Grounding A320neos will have consequences: DGCA

Sun Sep 01, 2019 9:39 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
A388 wrote:
The title of this thread is very misleading. It should read Indian A320NEO grounding.

A388


I copied the title from the article.


The article wasn't aimed at worldwide distribution, unlike this thread. Some clarification in title would be appropriate (for those not understanding what DGCA stands for).
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
Draken21fx
Posts: 205
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:38 am

Re: Grounding A320neos will have consequences: DGCA

Sun Sep 01, 2019 10:02 pm

DL747400 wrote:
Why does it seem as though India has been struggling much more than other countries to handle the latest in aviation airframe and engine technology?


In regards to engines I believe it is due to atmospheric pollution.
 
User avatar
DL747400
Posts: 722
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:04 pm

Re: Grounding A320neos in India will have consequences: DGCA

Sun Sep 01, 2019 10:28 pm

If new generation jet engines cannot handle the level of pollution present in the air in the skies over India, how in the world to human beings breathe that same air and retain any acceptable level of health?
From First to Worst: The history of Airliners.net.

All posts reflect my opinions, not those of my employer or any other company.
 
strfyr51
Posts: 3935
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: Grounding A320neos will have consequences: DGCA

Sun Sep 01, 2019 10:39 pm

Jamie514 wrote:
No dispute that they are having high rate of IFSD and reliability concerns, but it surely can't all be up to Airbus and Pratt when the incident rate is dramatically lower for everyone else using the same equipment.

But NOT using thev same equipment in India! Indian airplanes of nearly Every type seem to be a Mess. I've seen the Air India 787's at ORDup close and they seem to be more worn than any others of nearly the same age. I've never been to India so I wouldn't know if it's the weather or maintenance. Access panel edges seem to be worn with unpainted screw heads etc, just shop worn up close. Just a lack of attention to detail. I know and have worked with a number of Indian Mechanics and engineers though mostly from Fiji and they're sharp and well trained. How bad could the Indian's BE? Is it a lack of money or Management Skills?
 
User avatar
PacoMartin
Posts: 393
Joined: Sun May 27, 2018 8:18 pm

Delivery Table

Sun Sep 01, 2019 10:39 pm

N14AZ wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
IndiGo has almost 100 A320neos in service.

Is this correct? So many have been already delivered to a single customer?


Here is the deliveries from Airbus database as of 31 July 2019.

A320neos delivered
87 INDIGO INDIA A
41 FRONTIER AIRLINES UNITED STATES N
38 AIRASIA MALAYSIA MALAYSIA A
35 GO AIR INDIA A
29 EASYJET UNITED KINGDOM E
27 PEGASUS AIRLINES TURKEY E
26 SCANDINAVIAN AIRLINES SWEDEN E
24 CHINA EASTERN AIRLINES CHINA A
20 LUFTHANSA GERMANY E
19 VUELING SPAIN E
15 VIVA AEROBUS MEXICO L
10 AIR CHINA CHINA A
10 BRITISH AIRWAYS UNITED KINGDOM E
9 ANA HOLDINGS JAPAN A
9 LATAM AIRLINES GROUP CHILE L
7 AVIANCA COLOMBIA L
7 ROYAL BRUNEI AIRLINES BRUNEI DARUSSALAM A
6 GARUDA INDONESIA INDONESIA A
6 SHENZHEN AIRLINES CHINA A
6 VOLARIS MEXICO L
4 SPRING AIRLINES CHINA A
3 CHINA SOUTHERN AIRLINES CHINA A
3 FLYNAS SAUDI ARABIA M
3 GULF AIR BAHRAIN M
3 IBERIA SPAIN E
3 LOONG AIR CHINA A
2 AIR NEW ZEALAND NEW ZEALAND A
2 QINGDAO AIRLINES CHINA A
2 SCOOT SINGAPORE A
1 SALAM AIR OMAN M
....
74 AERCAP NETHERLANDS E
35 BOC AVIATION SINGAPORE A
35 GECAS UNITED STATES N
20 CIT LEASING UNITED STATES N
17 ALAFCO KUWAIT M
14 AVOLON IRELAND E
12 SMBC AVIATION CAPITAL IRELAND E
11 AIR LEASE CORPORATION UNITED STATES N
7 ARCTIC AVIATION ASSETS DAC IRELAND E
7 ICBC CHINA A
6 AVIATION CAPITAL GROUP UNITED STATES N
6 CALC CHINA A
5 CDB LEASING CHINA A
2 CMB FINANCIAL LEASING CHINA A
2 Governments; Executive and private Jets
710

A321neos delivered
11 ANA HOLDINGS JAPAN A
11 HAWAIIAN AIRLINES UNITED STATES N
11 VIETJET AIR VIET NAM A
9 CHINA SOUTHERN AIRLINES CHINA A
7 PHILIPPINE AIRLINES PHILIPPINES A
7 TURKISH AIRLINES TURKEY E
6 AMERICAN AIRLINES UNITED STATES N
6 EASYJET UNITED KINGDOM E
5 AIR CHINA CHINA A
5 BRITISH AIRWAYS UNITED KINGDOM E
5 INDIGO INDIA A
4 TAP AIR PORTUGAL PORTUGAL E
4 WIZZ AIR HUNGARY HUNGARY E
3 AIR NEW ZEALAND NEW ZEALAND A
2 ARKIA ISRAEL M
2 AVIANCA COLOMBIA L
2 CEBU PACIFIC AIR PHILIPPINES A
2 LUFTHANSA GERMANY E
2 SICHUAN AIRLINES CHINA A
1 ASIANA AIRLINES KOREA, REPUBLIC OF A
'
36 AERCAP NETHERLANDS E
28 AIR LEASE CORPORATION UNITED STATES N
13 GECAS UNITED STATES N
12 AVIATION CAPITAL GROUP UNITED STATES N
3 BOC AVIATION SINGAPORE A
2 CDB LEASING CHINA A
2 ICBC CHINA A
1 CALC CHINA A
1 CIT LEASING UNITED STATES N
1 JETBLUE AIRWAYS UNITED STATES N
204
 
lutfi
Posts: 883
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2000 6:33 pm

Re: Grounding A320neos in India will have consequences: DGCA

Sun Sep 01, 2019 11:01 pm

DL747400 wrote:
If new generation jet engines cannot handle the level of pollution present in the air in the skies over India, how in the world to human beings breathe that same air and retain any acceptable level of health?



They don’t. Estimated to kill 1.5 million a year

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_pollution_in_Delhi
 
User avatar
flee
Posts: 987
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:14 am

Re: Grounding A320neos will have consequences: DGCA

Mon Sep 02, 2019 4:08 am

DL747400 wrote:
Why does it seem as though India has been struggling much more than other countries to handle the latest in aviation airframe and engine technology?

Could it be due to the fact that more PW engines are on India's Neos? There are fewer aircraft that have the CFM LEAP engines.
 
User avatar
Spiderguy252
Posts: 1096
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:58 am

Re: Grounding A320neos in India will have consequences: DGCA

Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:26 am

Air India dodged a bullet by not going for PW on their NEOs.
Vahroone
 
User avatar
SQ22
Moderator
Posts: 1396
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:29 am

Re: Grounding Indian A320neos with PW engines in India will have consequences: DGCA

Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:14 am

Title has been updated.
 
RickNRoll
Posts: 1789
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:30 am

Re: Grounding A320neos in India will have consequences: DGCA

Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:26 am

DL747400 wrote:
If new generation jet engines cannot handle the level of pollution present in the air in the skies over India, how in the world to human beings breathe that same air and retain any acceptable level of health?


It is a significant health problem. That is why other countries have worked so hard to limit air pollution.
 
sibibom
Posts: 411
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2016 7:04 am

Re: Grounding Indian A320neos with PW engines in India will have consequences: DGCA

Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:10 am

It's not just pollution, it's also the heat and humidity. Qatar rejected PW engines cos heat in Doha would cause excessive wear and tear amongst other issues.

IndiGo replaced one faulty PW engine per week in the last 2.5 years. 126 engines and counting so far.

Read more at:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... aign=cppst
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 12494
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Grounding A320neos in India will have consequences: DGCA

Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:42 am

DL747400 wrote:
If new generation jet engines cannot handle the level of pollution present in the air in the skies over India, how in the world to human beings breathe that same air and retain any acceptable level of health?

.......they don't. :(


DEL has reached worse air quality readings than any measurement taken in any modern city; on some days overwhelmingly eclipsing PEK, with index ratings TWICE the maximum value of the AQI scale! :eek:

Local media referred to it as a "gas chamber." It's a true tragedy.
https://www.outlookindia.com/website/st ... far/304006

Image


On the worst days, visibility can be limited to as little as 1/8th of a kilometer, due to smog.

Image
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
edealinfo
Posts: 1719
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Grounding Indian A320neos with PW engines in India will have consequences: DGCA

Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:55 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:

Has there been any word on how many engines have been changed? More than 30 events in India is significant.


Indigo has like 50% of the domestic and intentional sector. So, do you really think the DGCA will strip India of 50% of its capacity? DGCA is a toothless tiger. It is the same agency that opined that the center of gravity of a 737 plane would shift, if a few flight attendants move their arms and legs in a simple dance move. It is that kind of thinking that leads them to make even more ridiculous claims and give warnings when in fact, it can do nothing. This is the same agency that couldn't follow existing rules to determine if Vistara could fly internationally and a special Group of Ministers had to make that decision for them.
 
Weatherwatcher1
Topic Author
Posts: 265
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:14 pm

Re: Grounding Indian A320neos with PW engines in India will have consequences: DGCA

Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:35 pm

edealinfo wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:

Has there been any word on how many engines have been changed? More than 30 events in India is significant.


Indigo has like 50% of the domestic and intentional sector. So, do you really think the DGCA will strip India of 50% of its capacity? DGCA is a toothless tiger. It is the same agency that opined that the center of gravity of a 737 plane would shift, if a few flight attendants move their arms and legs in a simple dance move. It is that kind of thinking that leads them to make even more ridiculous claims and give warnings when in fact, it can do nothing. This is the same agency that couldn't follow existing rules to determine if Vistara could fly internationally and a special Group of Ministers had to make that decision for them.


I think this is a sign that the DGCA is doing its diligence.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ce-460568/

The DGCA has also restricted airlines from accepting leased engines, or engines from MROs, without modified parts.

This is over and above its existing measures to mitigate the problem, which including barring IndiGo and GoAir from operating flights over the Bay of Bengal to Port Blair, and stepping up maintenance checks and component replacement of affected engines.

The DGCA expects that with these measures, engine failures in relation to the gear box will be contained after software updates, while low-pressure turbine issues will be address with new blade parts.


Image

From the quoted article, the DCGA is taking cautious steps to mitigate risk. Aviation is about mitigating and reducing risk, not eliminating it. It gives me confidence in the regulatory agency that they aren’t sitting back. 1/3rd of PW A320neos operate in India, so the DGCA will see issues first. They need to be proactive,
 
User avatar
CollegeAviator
Posts: 493
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 2:55 am

Re: Grounding A320neos in India will have consequences: DGCA

Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:59 pm

Spiderguy252 wrote:
Air India dodged a bullet by not going for PW on their NEOs.

Even Vistara for that matter, seeing as they are pinning their intl hopes on A321neos, SIN especially.
 
T4thH
Posts: 398
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:17 pm

Re: Grounding Indian A320neos with PW engines in India will have consequences: DGCA

Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:46 pm

I was not regular following the story, but I had believed, that PW had fixed all mayor issues and now the engines had to be upgraded step by step, till all are up to date...
Seems to be wrong? Is it still the vibration issue which is still ongoing?
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 18131
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Grounding Indian A320neos with PW engines in India will have consequences: DGCA

Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:17 pm

T4thH wrote:
I was not regular following the story, but I had believed, that PW had fixed all mayor issues and now the engines had to be upgraded step by step, till all are up to date...
Seems to be wrong? Is it still the vibration issue which is still ongoing?

Engine kits are still going into the fleet. Old pattern engines are still being delivered. We are mid-stream.

There are upgrades, but there is a long time delay to upgrades.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
User avatar
keesje
Posts: 13178
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Grounding Indian A320neos with PW engines in India will have consequences: DGCA

Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:37 am

Grounding Indian A320neos with PW engines in India will have consequences: DGCA

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
How likely is a grounding of PW A320neos in India? So far it has been on a plane by plane basis resulting in many engine changes.


DGCA is doing it's job. But those PW powered Indian NEO's aren't / won't be grounded? Confusing thread.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Weatherwatcher1
Topic Author
Posts: 265
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:14 pm

Re: Grounding Indian A320neos with PW engines in India will have consequences: DGCA

Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:40 pm

keesje wrote:
Grounding Indian A320neos with PW engines in India will have consequences: DGCA

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
How likely is a grounding of PW A320neos in India? So far it has been on a plane by plane basis resulting in many engine changes.


DGCA is doing it's job. But those PW powered Indian NEO's aren't / won't be grounded? Confusing thread.


With 5 different issues since the PW Engines started flying, it is a confusing situation, A new article came out today with a graphic that helps explain the situation for the two critical issues with the main gear box and low pressure turbine

https://www.livemint.com/companies/news ... 57760.html

Image

What is the aviation regulator doing?

Measures taken by the Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) to detect problems early include removal of engines to prevent glitches, and more frequent combustion chamber inspections and engine replacements. DGCA has asked airlines to log all cases of detection of odour or smoke in the cabin during operations, monitor and inspect engines in case of vibration. It is also restricting the operation of A320neo aircraft with P&W engines on the Port Blair sector as the plane has to fly over water bodies.


The quote also helps explain the steps that the DGCA has taken to reduce the risks of in flight shutdowns. These steps appear to be working sufficiently well at this time so that the regulators don’t feel the need to ground the fleet.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos