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ERAU1
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Are basler BT67 Still being produced?

Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:53 am

Does anyone know if there are still conversions being done in Oshkosh? Looks as if in 20 years less than 100 have rolled out.

Who is still taking delivery of the DC3 Conversion?
 
FlyHossD
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Re: Are basler BT67 Still being produced?

Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:06 am

Stopped by OSH recently; yes, they're still producing converions:

https://www.baslerturbo.com/
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
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GCT64
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Re: Are basler BT67 Still being produced?

Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:00 am

N141PR completed conversion and delivery to a customer in the second half of 2018.
I believe N844TH is still undergoing conversion.
N84KB was made airworthy and flown to OSH in late 2018, so possibly it was entering the conversion process too.
Flown in: A20N,A21N,A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,A359,A388,BA11,BU31,(..56 more types..),VC10,WESX
 
Canuck600
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Re: Are basler BT67 Still being produced?

Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:14 am

Apparently they only do a couple a year each conversion takes about 6 months & anywhere from 35000 to 45000 man hours to complete. Some poking around the net shows that Basler has bought 9 of Buffalo Airways DC-3's as feed stock for conversions.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Are basler BT67 Still being produced?

Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:26 am

Wow, around 40.000 man hours plus materials! One conversion should cost around 7,5million US, excluding the donor aircraft, or am I wrong about this guestemate.

I think it is a brilliant testimony to the people who designed it almost 100 years ago. In all this time, there isn't a better design (economics) to redo than the old workhorse C-47/DC-3. Pouring a substantial amount of money into such an old airframe is still amazing to me.

Image
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Are basler BT67 Still being produced?

Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:32 am

The Basler BT-67 is a utility aircraft produced by Basler Turbo Conversions of Oshkosh, Wisconsin. It is a remanufactured and modified Douglas DC-3; the modifications designed to significantly extend the DC-3's serviceable lifetime. The conversion includes fitting the airframe with new Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6A-67R turboprop engines, lengthening the fuselage, strengthening the airframe, upgrading the avionics, and making modifications to the wings' leading edges and wing tips.

Due to the slightly higher fuel consumption of the turbine engines of the BT-67, compared to the original piston designs fitted to the standard DC-3, range on the standard fuel tank, with 45 minute reserve, is reduced from 1,160 to 950 nautical miles (2,150 to 1,760 km). Basler provides a long-range fuel tank which increases the aircraft range to 2,140 nmi (3,960 km).


Just looked at the wikipedia page and indeed the reworking is quite extensive, including the lengthening of the airframe. I was quite surprised that the new engines - they are much of course - were less fuel-efficient than the original ones from 80plus years ago.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
finnishway
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Re: Are basler BT67 Still being produced?

Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:04 am

Yes there are still making them. If I remember right they finish 2 aircraft/year. They are optimistic that work will continue for years to come. Check youtube there is great video about them and how they build their planes.
 
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TripleDelta
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Re: Are basler BT67 Still being produced?

Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:12 am

Dutchy wrote:
Just looked at the wikipedia page and indeed the reworking is quite extensive, including the lengthening of the airframe. I was quite surprised that the new engines - they are much of course - were less fuel-efficient than the original ones from 80plus years ago.


Here's Basler's own infographic, listing all of the base changes from the stock DC-3:

Image

And the list of optional extras:

Image

Recently saw my first ever BT-67 up close... even though it is somewhat ungainly due to the new engine nacelles, it looks properly impressive from all angles!
Hawkeye: "It doesn't make any sense."
Radar: "Well, none of it makes any sense. You just have to send in the right number of forms." - MASH 4077
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Are basler BT67 Still being produced?

Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:29 am

In addition to all the changes, each frame starts fresh with 0 hours when completed by Basler.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Are basler BT67 Still being produced?

Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:10 pm

Dutchy wrote:
I think it is a brilliant testimony to the people who designed it almost 100 years ago. In all this time, there isn't a better design (economics) to redo than the old workhorse C-47/DC-3. Pouring a substantial amount of money into such an old airframe is still amazing to me.


The DC-3 is simply amazing. I’ve had the pleasure of seeing a number of the conversions in service.

On a slight off-topic detour, I’d respectfully suggest the An-2 is also right up there with the DC-3. While in Russia last week for MAKS, I saw no less than three different conversions, including a very significant update at the rework facility at Chernoye with new, larger windows, a totally revised cockpit section and no longer a bi-plane! :o

Meanwhile, back on topic, I love the DC-3 and I’m sadly confident it will outlive me by a large margin!
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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ERAU1
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Re: Are basler BT67 Still being produced?

Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:17 pm

Canuck600 wrote:
Apparently they only do a couple a year each conversion takes about 6 months & anywhere from 35000 to 45000 man hours to complete. Some poking around the net shows that Basler has bought 9 of Buffalo Airways DC-3's as feed stock for conversions.



Are they going to military operators?
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Are basler BT67 Still being produced?

Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:15 pm

scbriml wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
I think it is a brilliant testimony to the people who designed it almost 100 years ago. In all this time, there isn't a better design (economics) to redo than the old workhorse C-47/DC-3. Pouring a substantial amount of money into such an old airframe is still amazing to me.


The DC-3 is simply amazing. I’ve had the pleasure of seeing a number of the conversions in service.

On a slight off-topic detour, I’d respectfully suggest the An-2 is also right up there with the DC-3. While in Russia last week for MAKS, I saw no less than three different conversions, including a very significant update at the rework facility at Chernoye with new, larger windows, a totally revised cockpit section and no longer a bi-plane! :o

Meanwhile, back on topic, I love the DC-3 and I’m sadly confident it will outlive me by a large margin!

The AN-2 is impressive. Production numbers would have been similar if we exclude the Li-2 (Russian built), Nakajina L2D (Japanese), albeit less than the DC-3/ military versions. The DC-3 is the aircraft that introduced the Western world to air travel.

The BT-67 is certified for the coldest opperating temperatures of any aircraft. A history of flying everywhere. I would agree the AN-2 deserves an honorable 2nd place. How many are operating today vs. DC-3/BT-67 (all types).

The DC-3 was the first plane reliable enough to fly coast to coast (3 fuel stops, before a plane was switched to perform needed maintenance). It was the first passenger plane quiet enough to have a conversation. Most importantly, in 1936, it was the only commercial aircraft that could make a profit without subsidy.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/ ... l-5444300/

Neat aircraft, but when the impact on the world is summed up, the DC-3 is the top propeller aircraft.

Lightsaber
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Are basler BT67 Still being produced?

Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:29 am

Dutchy wrote:
The Basler BT-67 is a utility aircraft produced by Basler Turbo Conversions of Oshkosh, Wisconsin. It is a remanufactured and modified Douglas DC-3; the modifications designed to significantly extend the DC-3's serviceable lifetime. The conversion includes fitting the airframe with new Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6A-67R turboprop engines, lengthening the fuselage, strengthening the airframe, upgrading the avionics, and making modifications to the wings' leading edges and wing tips.

Due to the slightly higher fuel consumption of the turbine engines of the BT-67, compared to the original piston designs fitted to the standard DC-3, range on the standard fuel tank, with 45 minute reserve, is reduced from 1,160 to 950 nautical miles (2,150 to 1,760 km). Basler provides a long-range fuel tank which increases the aircraft range to 2,140 nmi (3,960 km).


Just looked at the wikipedia page and indeed the reworking is quite extensive, including the lengthening of the airframe. I was quite surprised that the new engines - they are much of course - were less fuel-efficient than the original ones from 80plus years ago.


Don’t confuse fuel consumption with efficiency. If true, we’d still be flying DC-6. The BT-67 flies 25% faster while carrying 43% more payload with more cargo volume.

GF
 
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TripleDelta
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Re: Are basler BT67 Still being produced?

Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:13 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Don’t confuse fuel consumption with efficiency. If true, we’d still be flying DC-6. The BT-67 flies 25% faster while carrying 43% more payload with more cargo volume.


With more easily obtainable fuel, higher Time Between Overhauls and vastly improved reliability.
Hawkeye: "It doesn't make any sense."
Radar: "Well, none of it makes any sense. You just have to send in the right number of forms." - MASH 4077
 
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Spacepope
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Re: Are basler BT67 Still being produced?

Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:58 am

TripleDelta wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Don’t confuse fuel consumption with efficiency. If true, we’d still be flying DC-6. The BT-67 flies 25% faster while carrying 43% more payload with more cargo volume.


With more easily obtainable fuel, higher Time Between Overhauls and vastly improved reliability.

And it consumes several gallons less engine oil per trip too.
The last of the famous international playboys
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Are basler BT67 Still being produced?

Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:13 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
The Basler BT-67 is a utility aircraft produced by Basler Turbo Conversions of Oshkosh, Wisconsin. It is a remanufactured and modified Douglas DC-3; the modifications designed to significantly extend the DC-3's serviceable lifetime. The conversion includes fitting the airframe with new Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6A-67R turboprop engines, lengthening the fuselage, strengthening the airframe, upgrading the avionics, and making modifications to the wings' leading edges and wing tips.

Due to the slightly higher fuel consumption of the turbine engines of the BT-67, compared to the original piston designs fitted to the standard DC-3, range on the standard fuel tank, with 45 minute reserve, is reduced from 1,160 to 950 nautical miles (2,150 to 1,760 km). Basler provides a long-range fuel tank which increases the aircraft range to 2,140 nmi (3,960 km).


Just looked at the wikipedia page and indeed the reworking is quite extensive, including the lengthening of the airframe. I was quite surprised that the new engines - they are much of course - were less fuel-efficient than the original ones from 80plus years ago.


Don’t confuse fuel consumption with efficiency. If true, we’d still be flying DC-6. The BT-67 flies 25% faster while carrying 43% more payload with more cargo volume.

GF


Sure, all true of course, but still there is a mass amount of time between those two engines and the engineering is way different. Consider this, the design of the original engine was closer to the first heavier than air flight than it was to the new engine powering the BT-67.
I am amazed even though your considerations are all true. ;)
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Canuck600
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Re: Are basler BT67 Still being produced?

Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:07 am

ERAU1 wrote:
Canuck600 wrote:
Apparently they only do a couple a year each conversion takes about 6 months & anywhere from 35000 to 45000 man hours to complete. Some poking around the net shows that Basler has bought 9 of Buffalo Airways DC-3's as feed stock for conversions.



Are they going to military operators?


Who knows, you can Google & find out more.
 
WIederling
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Re: Are basler BT67 Still being produced?

Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:37 am

lightsaber wrote:
I would agree the AN-2 deserves an honorable 2nd place. How many are operating today vs. DC-3/BT-67 (all types).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_A ... _operators

Quite a bit more than DC-3s I'd guess.

IMU:
for the American market the DC-3 was quite the step.
But for Europe air travel had long been established with rather extensive routing.
Just the "Junkers Luftverkehr" routes in 1925 and using modern robust full metal aircraft:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_M ... z_1925.jpg
Murphy is an optimist
 
mikejepp
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Re: Are basler BT67 Still being produced?

Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:36 pm

Which current new build aircraft is closest in specifications / mission capability to the BT67?

The best I can think of is the CN235, but I'm sure someone here knows of something closer.

Why would one buy a BT67 over a CN235? Purchase price?
 
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SQ22
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Re: Are basler BT67 Still being produced?

Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:31 pm

mikejepp wrote:
Which current new build aircraft is closest in specifications / mission capability to the BT67?

The best I can think of is the CN235, but I'm sure someone here knows of something closer.

Why would one buy a BT67 over a CN235? Purchase price?


What about ruggedness and being easy to maintain? There must be some reasons? Like there is also a reason why 3C is still operating CV-580's, I was wondering about this when reading this thread, but this is subject for another thread
 
finnishway
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Re: Are basler BT67 Still being produced?

Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:13 pm

mikejepp wrote:
Which current new build aircraft is closest in specifications / mission capability to the BT67?

The best I can think of is the CN235, but I'm sure someone here knows of something closer.

Why would one buy a BT67 over a CN235? Purchase price?


Well Airbus Military still produces C-295 and not too long time ago it was granted civil certification. Still the purchase price according to wikipedia is 28 million USD. Lockheed is producing LM-100J which is very cabable aircraft and can pretty much operate everywhere. List price is about 60 million USD. Basler is making product that is very cabable and proven in all sorts of enviroments and doesn't cost too much to purchase.
 
ERAU1
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Re: Are basler BT67 Still being produced?

Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:54 pm

mikejepp wrote:
Which current new build aircraft is closest in specifications / mission capability to the BT67?

The best I can think of is the CN235, but I'm sure someone here knows of something closer.

Why would one buy a BT67 over a CN235? Purchase price?



I'd imagine a shorts 360?
 
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Spacepope
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Re: Are basler BT67 Still being produced?

Wed Sep 04, 2019 1:33 am

ERAU1 wrote:
mikejepp wrote:
Which current new build aircraft is closest in specifications / mission capability to the BT67?

The best I can think of is the CN235, but I'm sure someone here knows of something closer.

Why would one buy a BT67 over a CN235? Purchase price?



I'd imagine a shorts 360?


The Shorts is not in current production.
The last of the famous international playboys
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Are basler BT67 Still being produced?

Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:22 am

SQ22 wrote:
mikejepp wrote:
Which current new build aircraft is closest in specifications / mission capability to the BT67?

The best I can think of is the CN235, but I'm sure someone here knows of something closer.

Why would one buy a BT67 over a CN235? Purchase price?


What about ruggedness and being easy to maintain? There must be some reasons? Like there is also a reason why 3C is still operating CV-580's, I was wondering about this when reading this thread, but this is subject for another thread

The BT-67 has a niche. But there is a demand for a new build in this capability. They Cessna 408 Skycourier is a cargo replacement on shorter missions with a better cargo door.

But as the Skycourier doesn't enter flight testing until late this year, I see no worries. For the cold weather missions, it will take decades for the new plane to build up a reputation.

Neither are pressurized. Neither are fast, but the BT-67 is slightly faster with more range (over double). So I see coexistence between the two aircraft.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessna_408_SkyCourier

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basler_BT-67

There is no comparison in passenger duty, the BT-67 can haul twice the people. Long live the Gooney bird.

Lightsaber
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ERAU1
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Re: Are basler BT67 Still being produced?

Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:02 pm

I wonder, how much is one to convert?
 
Canuck600
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Re: Are basler BT67 Still being produced?

Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:27 am

According to Wiki they were going for about $6.5 million dollars in 2012. What is there on the market that has the same performance specifications at the Basler that is priced similar, say in the 6 to 7 million dollar range?
 
ERAU1
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Re: Are basler BT67 Still being produced?

Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:16 pm

Canuck600 wrote:
According to Wiki they were going for about $6.5 million dollars in 2012. What is there on the market that has the same performance specifications at the Basler that is priced similar, say in the 6 to 7 million dollar range?



That's. Not bad. I think they're running out of airframes
 
Canuck600
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Re: Are basler BT67 Still being produced?

Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:41 pm

I read a article about a recent restoration they did on a wwII dc-3 & they said they had a yard full of frames + they just bought 9 more from Buffalo. Check the website & read there FAQ https://www.baslerturbo.com/ The link on the top right that says "That's All Brother" is the link for the restoration of the DC-3 that was involved in D-Day

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