xwb777
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Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Wed Sep 04, 2019 1:00 pm

Emirates CEO, Sir Tim Clark has stated that the airline won't take delivery of new aircraft unless Rolls Royce and GE deliver the engines that they have promised.
Quote: "“When they don’t give me those aeroplanes and engines that work - it’s over"

Tim has again stated that the airline might replace part of the B777Xs with the smaller B787. Speaking on the B787 commitment, the airline boss won't commit to the type until RR has resolved all the engine issues.

Quote: "“We would be foolish to start adjusting or coming up with new contracts until we are absolutely sure these aircraft are going to do what they said they were going to do.”".

In regards to the A330NEO and A350 contract, Sir Tim is not happy with RR as they arenot delivering engines within the rules of the game he established and thus the contract might not be completed until RR delvers what he wants.

:In a context of slowing global growth, Clark said that Emirates would have to re-evaluate jet orders made 2-3 years ago, but denied engine issues provided a convenient excuse to reassess a backlog of aircraft orders.

“Clouds and silver linings are one thing. Was this an orchestrated slow or stop? No it wasn’t”, he said. “This is not an attempt to slow things with a regard to our obligations under contract. It is just a re-establishment of the rules of the game, which I do not think are unreasonable.”

Source: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-emir ... j0FwNpOYYs
 
Flying-Tiger
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Wed Sep 04, 2019 1:05 pm

Reuters is more on the engine side, Bloomberg on the fleet side:

The Gulf carrier is mulling the fleet profile as part of a wider study begun in February after it decided that the A380 could no longer remain the lynch-pin of operations with Airbus reluctant to invest in the slow-selling model. The work is expected to be concluded in time for November’s Dubai Air Show, the primary venue for the company’s order announcements.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-09-04/emirates-evaluates-fleet-requirement-as-global-economy-sputters?srnd=economics-vp

Sounds like a pretty big shake-up coming along at Emirates.
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A343/346, A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8/9,B742/4,B762/763,B772/77W,CR2/7/9/K,ER3/4,E70/75/90/95, F50/70/100,M11,L15,SF3,S20, AR8/1, 142/143,...
 
xwb777
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Wed Sep 04, 2019 1:09 pm

Flying-Tiger wrote:
Reuters is more on the engine side, Bloomberg on the fleet side:

The Gulf carrier is mulling the fleet profile as part of a wider study begun in February after it decided that the A380 could no longer remain the lynch-pin of operations with Airbus reluctant to invest in the slow-selling model. The work is expected to be concluded in time for November’s Dubai Air Show, the primary venue for the company’s order announcements.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-09-04/emirates-evaluates-fleet-requirement-as-global-economy-sputters?srnd=economics-vp

Sounds like a pretty big shake-up coming along at Emirates.


Earlier today, the airline has announced a minor shake up in the leadership team:
Adel Al Redha - COO
Adnan Kazim - CCO
Sheikh Majid Al Mualla - Divisional Senior Vice President, International Affairs.
 
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FrenchPotatoEye
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Wed Sep 04, 2019 1:18 pm

xwb777 wrote:
Flying-Tiger wrote:
Reuters is more on the engine side, Bloomberg on the fleet side:

The Gulf carrier is mulling the fleet profile as part of a wider study begun in February after it decided that the A380 could no longer remain the lynch-pin of operations with Airbus reluctant to invest in the slow-selling model. The work is expected to be concluded in time for November’s Dubai Air Show, the primary venue for the company’s order announcements.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-09-04/emirates-evaluates-fleet-requirement-as-global-economy-sputters?srnd=economics-vp

Sounds like a pretty big shake-up coming along at Emirates.


Earlier today, the airline has announced a minor shake up in the leadership team:
Adel Al Redha - COO
Adnan Kazim - CCO
Sheikh Majid Al Mualla - Divisional Senior Vice President, International Affairs.


More promotions than shake up.

As for sir Tim, he should perhaps start to let go of his obsesion with Rolls engines. Plenty of happy genX operators of all 3 787 models.

it also explainz why EK has not firmeded up the A33neo and A350900 orders too. The Letters to interest expire on those soon too.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Wed Sep 04, 2019 1:28 pm

The cynic in me sees a convenient excuse to defer deliveries amid a needed restructuration...
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Jefford717
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Wed Sep 04, 2019 1:29 pm

It seems like EK wants the 787 over the A330neo or A350 but hesitant to commit due to RR Trent 1000 issue that plagued the program for many years now, at least the 787 has GE as another engine. IDK why can’t they just commit to 787 with GE engines instead. It’s getting the job done for QR and EY in a similar operating environment similar to DXB

As far as the GE9x for the upcoming 777x, GE seems to know what the problem is and know hows to fix it. Fingers crossed.
 
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Wed Sep 04, 2019 1:35 pm

Spares aside, do airlines purchase engines directly from manufacturers?
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Wed Sep 04, 2019 1:41 pm

Francoflier wrote:
The cynic in me sees a convenient excuse to defer deliveries amid a needed restructuration...


That could be true, but it could also be that he doesn’t want to face the challenges that airlines operating the PW1100G or Trent 1000 are facing

Image

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ce-460568/

Image

https://theaircurrent.com/engine-develo ... -bad-year/
 
majano
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Wed Sep 04, 2019 1:43 pm

Jefford717 wrote:
It seems like EK wants the 787 over the A330neo or A350 but hesitant to commit due to RR Trent 1000 issue that plagued the program for many years now, at least the 787 has GE as another engine. IDK why can’t they just commit to 787 with GE engines instead. It’s getting the job done for QR and EY in a similar operating environment similar to DXB

As far as the GE9x for the upcoming 777x, GE seems to know what the problem is and know hows to fix it. Fingers crossed.

This post is absolute rubbish. QR is also operating Trent-XWB powered A350s very successfully in the same environment and singing its praises too. The GE9X is not flying and there is a fleet of 777X gliders lying around in Washington State (in case you did not notice). How you reach a conclusion such as you have is completely baseless.
Francoffier offers a much more plausible explanation of Clark's confusing remarks. The Bloomberg article seems to indicate a decision around the fleet towards November, which could align with the Dubai Airshow. Negotiations could be another explanation.
 
Jefford717
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:10 pm

majano wrote:
Jefford717 wrote:
It seems like EK wants the 787 over the A330neo or A350 but hesitant to commit due to RR Trent 1000 issue that plagued the program for many years now, at least the 787 has GE as another engine. IDK why can’t they just commit to 787 with GE engines instead. It’s getting the job done for QR and EY in a similar operating environment similar to DXB

As far as the GE9x for the upcoming 777x, GE seems to know what the problem is and know hows to fix it. Fingers crossed.

This post is absolute rubbish. QR is also operating Trent-XWB powered A350s very successfully in the same environment and singing its praises too. The GE9X is not flying and there is a fleet of 777X gliders lying around in Washington State (in case you did not notice). How you reach a conclusion such as you have is completely baseless.
Francoffier offers a much more plausible explanation of Clark's confusing remarks. The Bloomberg article seems to indicate a decision around the fleet towards November, which could align with the Dubai Airshow. Negotiations could be another explanation.


I’m aware that the Trent XWB has been operating successfully...I’m mainly talking about the 787 engines in my earlier comment. The order for the A330neo and A350 (both not firm) is a placeholder for the A380 that they canceled earlier this year and won’t be surprised if it gets reduced or canceled.

As far as the 777x, first flight is delayed due to GE9X issue, but those evidence alone are not a good predictor on how it would perform once it’s put into service. Seeing what’s happening with the Trent 1000 on 787 and the 737 Max debacles, GE in my opinion is taking a more precautious route.
 
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:28 pm

Jefford717 wrote:
The order for the A330neo and A350 (both not firm) is a placeholder for the A380 that they canceled earlier this year and won’t be surprised if it gets reduced or canceled.


As things stand today, EK’s entire A380 order is still on the books. The cancellation has not been finalised.
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majano
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:36 pm

Jefford717 wrote:
majano wrote:
Jefford717 wrote:
It seems like EK wants the 787 over the A330neo or A350 but hesitant to commit due to RR Trent 1000 issue that plagued the program for many years now, at least the 787 has GE as another engine. IDK why can’t they just commit to 787 with GE engines instead. It’s getting the job done for QR and EY in a similar operating environment similar to DX

I’m aware that the Trent XWB has been operating successfully...I’m mainly talking about the 787 engines in my earlier comment. The order for the A330neo and A350 (both not firm) is a placeholder for the A380 that they canceled earlier this year and won’t be surprised if it gets reduced or canceled.

As far as the 777x, first flight is delayed due to GE9X issue, but those evidence alone are not a good predictor on how it would perform once it’s put into service. Seeing what’s happening with the Trent 1000 on 787 and the 737 Max debacles, GE in my opinion is taking a more precautious route.

Ok, you claimed that EK does not want the A330neo or the A350 but would rather have the 787. You claimed that it was due to the Trent 1000 persistent problems. I argued that your position was baseless since the A350 is powered by the Trent XWB and appears to be performing adequately for now. You are now making another claim, that the A330neo and A350 unconfirmed orders will be cancelled. You offer no basis for this claim. You then conclude by claiming that GE, whose engines have delayed the 777X programme for months, is taking a more precautious route. Again, on what basis? I do not wish to drag this thread off-topic (Clark's dissatisfaction with engine OEMs) so I will leave you to it.
 
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FrenchPotatoEye
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:37 pm

scbriml wrote:
Jefford717 wrote:
The order for the A330neo and A350 (both not firm) is a placeholder for the A380 that they canceled earlier this year and won’t be surprised if it gets reduced or canceled.


As things stand today, EK’s entire A380 order is still on the books. The cancellation has not been finalised.


Good catch, hadn't seen that.

Tied to the A330neo+A350 deals no doubt.

Maybe at the Dbudai air show in 2 months time?
 
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flee
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:47 pm

FrenchPotatoEye wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Jefford717 wrote:
The order for the A330neo and A350 (both not firm) is a placeholder for the A380 that they canceled earlier this year and won’t be surprised if it gets reduced or canceled.

As things stand today, EK’s entire A380 order is still on the books. The cancellation has not been finalised.

Good catch, hadn't seen that.

Tied to the A330neo+A350 deals no doubt.

Maybe at the Dbudai air show in 2 months time?

Well the A380 orders are firm - both for the airframe and the RR Trent 900 engines. That was why EK had to order A330 Neos and A350s - those aircraft will have RR engines and will replace the cancelled A380 orders.

And if EK decides to go with B787s, they will have to order them with RR Trent 1000 engines. After ordering B787s they will still have to order some Airbus products to make up for the A380 cancellations.

TC is merely emphasising that EK will not take these RR engines unless they work as per contracted terms.
 
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:58 pm

flee wrote:
FrenchPotatoEye wrote:
scbriml wrote:
As things stand today, EK’s entire A380 order is still on the books. The cancellation has not been finalised.

Good catch, hadn't seen that.

Tied to the A330neo+A350 deals no doubt.

Maybe at the Dbudai air show in 2 months time?

Well the A380 orders are firm - both for the airframe and the RR Trent 900 engines. That was why EK had to order A330 Neos and A350s - those aircraft will have RR engines and will replace the cancelled A380 orders.

And if EK decides to go with B787s, they will have to order them with RR Trent 1000 engines. After ordering B787s they will still have to order some Airbus products to make up for the A380 cancellations.

TC is merely emphasising that EK will not take these RR engines unless they work as per contracted terms.

I am not sure if you read the entire article, but the first part of Clark's comments are directed squarely at GE with the 777X. So, it is not just RR that he vented against.
 
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:00 pm

Francoflier wrote:
The cynic in me sees a convenient excuse to defer deliveries amid a needed restructuration...


Well, there's that. One can assume he isn't willing to be the launch customer for a new type or new engine variants. There's plenty of older tech available (probably at good prices) at the cost of higher operating costs for the 25-30 year asset life (think of DL's big 739 and 321 not-Neo buys).
 
Checklist787
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:24 pm

majano wrote:
Jefford717 wrote:
majano wrote:

Ok, you claimed that EK does not want the A330neo or the A350 but would rather have the 787. You claimed that it was due to the Trent 1000 persistent problems. I argued that your position was baseless since the A350 is powered by the Trent XWB and appears to be performing adequately for now. You are now making another claim, that the A330neo and A350 unconfirmed orders will be cancelled. You offer no basis for this claim. You then conclude by claiming that GE, whose engines have delayed the 777X programme for months, is taking a more precautious route. Again, on what basis? I do not wish to drag this thread off-topic (Clark's dissatisfaction with engine OEMs) so I will leave you to it.


Engine problems have been identified even for the A350 Trent XWB.

For this purpose we can actually consider an attraction for the 787-10 and the GEnx could be a relevant solution
 
Checklist787
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:31 pm

scbriml wrote:
Jefford717 wrote:
The order for the A330neo and A350 (both not firm) is a placeholder for the A380 that they canceled earlier this year and won’t be surprised if it gets reduced or canceled.


As things stand today, EK’s entire A380 order is still on the books. The cancellation has not been finalised.


This is exactly what I suspected for a long time. EK was obliged to change A380 orders to the A330-900neo and A350-900 to honor their contracts with Airbus.

The concern of RR engines may give them the right to get rid of litigation if Airbus does not honor its contract either. This is speculation on my part but would be really a blow if it happens for RR and Airbus tandem...
 
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:34 pm

Checklist787 wrote:
Engine problems have been identified even for the A350 Trent XWB.

Do you have a source? I’m very interested what the issues are
 
marcelh
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:36 pm

Checklist787 wrote:
The concern of RR engines may give them the right to get rid of litigation if Airbus does not honor its contract either. This is speculation on my part but would be really a blow if it happens for RR and Airbus tandem...

A lot of A.netters wouldn’t mind....
 
2175301
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:38 pm

It appears that in wide-body space I guess that leaves Tim Clark with the 767 and previous generations of 777 (production winding down). Potentially the 747-8P; however, my understanding is that it uses the same engine as the 787, although perhaps at its power levels it has sufficient history to show adequate compliance with his expectations.

Edited to add: I believe that A330 as well (I'm not sure on its current engine and history).

I'm not sure that any of the newer engines on the other aircraft has enough time in service for the engine manufactures to actually demonstrate that the engines meet contract expectations (which includes reliability expectations).

I wish him well....

Have a great day,
 
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:41 pm

xwb777 wrote:
Quote: "“We would be foolish to start adjusting or coming up with new contracts until we are absolutely sure these aircraft are going to do what they said they were going to do.”".

In regards to the A330NEO and A350 contract, Sir Tim is not happy with RR as they arenot delivering engines within the rules of the game he established and thus the contract might not be completed until RR delvers what he wants.

:In a context of slowing global growth, Clark said that Emirates would have to re-evaluate jet orders made 2-3 years ago, but denied engine issues provided a convenient excuse to reassess a backlog of aircraft orders.

“Clouds and silver linings are one thing. Was this an orchestrated slow or stop? No it wasn’t”, he said. “This is not an attempt to slow things with a regard to our obligations under contract. It is just a re-establishment of the rules of the game, which I do not think are unreasonable.”

Source: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-emir ... j0FwNpOYYs

STC just broadcast everything is up for renegotiation.

Grab the popcorn. With GE and RR in the cross hairs, no one wins. I make no bets.

It anything, STC just found his carpet to delay accepting delivery.

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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:54 pm

Checklist787 wrote:
majano wrote:
Jefford717 wrote:

Ok, you claimed that EK does not want the A330neo or the A350 but would rather have the 787. You claimed that it was due to the Trent 1000 persistent problems. I argued that your position was baseless since the A350 is powered by the Trent XWB and appears to be performing adequately for now. You are now making another claim, that the A330neo and A350 unconfirmed orders will be cancelled. You offer no basis for this claim. You then conclude by claiming that GE, whose engines have delayed the 777X programme for months, is taking a more precautious route. Again, on what basis? I do not wish to drag this thread off-topic (Clark's dissatisfaction with engine OEMs) so I will leave you to it.


Engine problems have been identified even for the A350 Trent XWB.

For this purpose we can actually consider an attraction for the 787-10 and the GEnx could be a relevant solution

I'm aware of only one IB diversion. What do you know I don't?
http://m.aviationweek.com/commercial-av ... 000-issues

What we do know is ANZ switched to GE and RR claims it is only because GE was very agressively in pricing.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ts-460202/

RR is not meeting T1000 promise. It is possible GE had hooks into RR data they find in violation of contract.

We have another thread, on DWC, where we are discussing a potential EK downsizing:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1430367

Deals are better today. I speculate EK desires a different size mix and that Boeing and GE have offered great terms. If STC doesn't take the better offer, he is doing EK a disservice.

This isn't A vs. B, this is cold hard business. I would say the same for the reverse

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Checklist787
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:57 pm

marcelh wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
The concern of RR engines may give them the right to get rid of litigation if Airbus does not honor its contract either. This is speculation on my part but would be really a blow if it happens for RR and Airbus tandem...

A lot of A.netters wouldn’t mind....


Yeeess!! with pleasure ! :bigthumbsup:


"Airlines Could Be Told To Inspect Airbus A350-900 Engine Mounts"

https://simpleflying.com/airbus-a350-engine-mounts/amp/

French source
https://finance.orange.fr/bourse/articl ... 6sKCc.html
 
marcelh
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:18 pm

Checklist787 wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
The concern of RR engines may give them the right to get rid of litigation if Airbus does not honor its contract either. This is speculation on my part but would be really a blow if it happens for RR and Airbus tandem...

A lot of A.netters wouldn’t mind....


Yeeess!! with pleasure ! :bigthumbsup:


"Airlines Could Be Told To Inspect Airbus A350-900 Engine Mounts"

https://simpleflying.com/airbus-a350-engine-mounts/amp/

French source
https://finance.orange.fr/bourse/articl ... 6sKCc.html

Is that all? Hardly an issue compared to the Rollers at the 787 or the PW nightmare with the A32xneo...
 
Checklist787
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:22 pm

marcelh wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
marcelh wrote:
A lot of A.netters wouldn’t mind....


Yeeess!! with pleasure ! :bigthumbsup:


"Airlines Could Be Told To Inspect Airbus A350-900 Engine Mounts"

https://simpleflying.com/airbus-a350-engine-mounts/amp/

French source
https://finance.orange.fr/bourse/articl ... 6sKCc.html

Is that all? Hardly an issue compared to the Rollers at the 787 or the PW nightmare with the A32xneo...


My sources as well as those of "Lightsaber", should be enough ... :thumbsup:
 
ITSTours
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:29 pm

Checklist787 wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:

Yeeess!! with pleasure ! :bigthumbsup:


"Airlines Could Be Told To Inspect Airbus A350-900 Engine Mounts"

https://simpleflying.com/airbus-a350-engine-mounts/amp/

French source
https://finance.orange.fr/bourse/articl ... 6sKCc.html

Is that all? Hardly an issue compared to the Rollers at the 787 or the PW nightmare with the A32xneo...


My sources as well as those of "Lightsaber", should be enough ... :thumbsup:


A few isolated cases versus fleet grounding in dozen airlines are very different. I think everyone understands this .....
 
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:42 pm

Airbus is criminally negligent if it lets EK walk away from 39 A380s based on RR's inability to perform to STC's satisfaction, I'm not buying it.
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:46 pm

Just as a reminder, please do not turn this into another useless B vs. A resp. GE vs. RR discussion as both manufacturers resp. engine manufacturers are affected. Thanks.
 
Eyad89
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:04 pm

Revelation wrote:
Airbus is criminally negligent if it lets EK walk away from 39 A380s based on RR's inability to perform to STC's satisfaction, I'm not buying it.


I always thought about that, if Airbus is the one ending the A380 production line, is EK the one walking away from the contract? EK could simply stick to the contract and ask Airbus to deliver.

Or was the Airbus decision to stop A380 production AFTER EK had converted its A380 order to A350+A330neo?
 
kimimm19
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:19 pm

This is a non-story really.

Since all next generation aircraft have been having problems (to varying degrees), there is no aircraft currently flying or in development where engines haven't had issues, and that means there is no alternative.
 
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:51 pm

but denied engine issues provided a convenient excuse to reassess a backlog of aircraft orders.

“Clouds and silver linings are one thing. Was this an orchestrated slow or stop? No it wasn’t”, he said. “This is not an attempt to slow things with a regard to our obligations under contract. It is just a re-establishment of the rules of the game, which I do not think are unreasonable.


Sounds like a convenient excuse to reassess a backlog of aircraft orders.
@DadCelo
 
oceanvikram
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:16 pm

gatibosgru wrote:
but denied engine issues provided a convenient excuse to reassess a backlog of aircraft orders.

“Clouds and silver linings are one thing. Was this an orchestrated slow or stop? No it wasn’t”, he said. “This is not an attempt to slow things with a regard to our obligations under contract. It is just a re-establishment of the rules of the game, which I do not think are unreasonable.


Sounds like a convenient excuse to reassess a backlog of aircraft orders.


Completely agree with you. I think the good old days of massive year on year growth is now to the equilibrium point. Sure they will maintain their route structure as well as the service levels but their market share appears to be cracking.

I am speculating Emirates’s mojo has now been curtailed by Qatar Airways, Turkish Airlines, Etihad, Air India flying to a lot more destinations and that too direct, the Chinese airlines and to some extent Ethiopian.

Tim Clark is blaming manufacturers for not delivering on their promise. Whether he likes it or not this is going to be the case for all new blank sheet designs as they are getting ever more sophisticated. The reality is that airlines have started biting into Emirates market share.
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:18 pm

kimimm19 wrote:
This is a non-story really.

Since all next generation aircraft have been having problems (to varying degrees), there is no aircraft currently flying or in development where engines haven't had issues, and that means there is no alternative.


Sure there is, just as I outlined above - older tech.
 
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:37 pm

Revelation wrote:
Airbus is criminally negligent if it lets EK walk away from 39 A380s based on RR's inability to perform to STC's satisfaction, I'm not buying it.


Me neither. :smile:
 
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:40 pm

scbriml wrote:
Jefford717 wrote:
The order for the A330neo and A350 (both not firm) is a placeholder for the A380 that they canceled earlier this year and won’t be surprised if it gets reduced or canceled.


As things stand today, EK’s entire A380 order is still on the books. The cancellation has not been finalised.



That’s a bit of a technicality seeing as Airbus announced the cancellation of the program.
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:42 pm

Eyad89 wrote:

I always thought about that, if Airbus is the one ending the A380 production line, is EK the one walking away from the contract? EK could simply stick to the contract and ask Airbus to deliver.

Or was the Airbus decision to stop A380 production AFTER EK had converted its A380 order to A350+A330neo?

I think it was a Troika, RR initially got in on the A380 with promises which were never met, the next order which provided the life line to the A380 was being done by all 3 parties, EK could not get RR to agree to additional Pips, Airbus it does not seem were able to bridge the gap, so EK ultimately said no more, now the issue is the funds already deposited, what to do with them.....
 
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:57 pm

Eyad89 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Airbus is criminally negligent if it lets EK walk away from 39 A380s based on RR's inability to perform to STC's satisfaction, I'm not buying it.


I always thought about that, if Airbus is the one ending the A380 production line, is EK the one walking away from the contract? EK could simply stick to the contract and ask Airbus to deliver.

Or was the Airbus decision to stop A380 production AFTER EK had converted its A380 order to A350+A330neo?


Announced on the same day. https://airwaysmag.com/airlines/emirate ... -a350-900/

Of course we don't know when the decisions were made behind the scene.

Considering EK order - cancel habit i doubt that Emirates has any leash for this or otherwise Airbus was in a desperate need to shut down A380 line.
 
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:58 pm

Revelation wrote:
Airbus is criminally negligent if it lets EK walk away from 39 A380s based on RR's inability to perform to STC's satisfaction, I'm not buying it.

Although I'm not so sure on the criminally negligent thing, I'd agree that Airbus would have put more than sufficient controls in place to disconnect any potential engine issues from airframe contract obligations.
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:21 pm

Checklist787 wrote:
majano wrote:
Jefford717 wrote:

Ok, you claimed that EK does not want the A330neo or the A350 but would rather have the 787. You claimed that it was due to the Trent 1000 persistent problems. I argued that your position was baseless since the A350 is powered by the Trent XWB and appears to be performing adequately for now. You are now making another claim, that the A330neo and A350 unconfirmed orders will be cancelled. You offer no basis for this claim. You then conclude by claiming that GE, whose engines have delayed the 777X programme for months, is taking a more precautious route. Again, on what basis? I do not wish to drag this thread off-topic (Clark's dissatisfaction with engine OEMs) so I will leave you to it.


Engine problems have been identified even for the A350 Trent XWB.

For this purpose we can actually consider an attraction for the 787-10 and the GEnx could be a relevant solution

I have no idea why you would direct this towards me when I have made no such claim that there were no engine problems on the Trent XWB. You, however seem to be saying that the GEnx has no issues, which is untrue. Clark's comments, which have to be taken with a pinch of salt, were directed at both GE and RR.
 
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:32 pm

Eyad89 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Airbus is criminally negligent if it lets EK walk away from 39 A380s based on RR's inability to perform to STC's satisfaction, I'm not buying it.


I always thought about that, if Airbus is the one ending the A380 production line, is EK the one walking away from the contract? EK could simply stick to the contract and ask Airbus to deliver.

Or was the Airbus decision to stop A380 production AFTER EK had converted its A380 order to A350+A330neo?

Both EK and Airbus's press statements said EK was cancelling its orders thus A380 production would cease.

PW100 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Airbus is criminally negligent if it lets EK walk away from 39 A380s based on RR's inability to perform to STC's satisfaction, I'm not buying it.

Although I'm not so sure on the criminally negligent thing, I'd agree that Airbus would have put more than sufficient controls in place to disconnect any potential engine issues from airframe contract obligations.

Fair enough, in retrospect perhaps my language was a bit too rich, your statement is on target.
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:52 pm

FG: Widebody doubts stall Emirates' Airbus and Boeing negotiations has some strong statements from STC about both GE and RR and the products they fly on.

I was going to try to summarize it, but he really has nothing positive to say about any of the major new programs EK has various commitments to, i.e. GE, RR, 787, 777, A330 and A350.

Note he treats 787 as a live LOI and in play due to the 777X renegotiation, and he complains that he is not being kept in the loop about 777-8X delay/shelving/whatever, and says it makes little sense to continue re-negotiations in the current climate.
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:55 pm

Eyad89 wrote:

I always thought about that, if Airbus is the one ending the A380 production line, is EK the one walking away from the contract? EK could simply stick to the contract and ask Airbus to deliver.

Or was the Airbus decision to stop A380 production AFTER EK had converted its A380 order to A350+A330neo?


These decisions certainly went hand-in-hand, and undoubtedly were the result of lengthy negotiations.

While both parties wanted out of the deal, neither one wanted to be the one to be stuck with all of the penalties associated with breaking the contract, while each was probably hoping the other would flinch first.

Neither party woke up one day, called the other out of the blue and said “hey, the deal’s off,” leaving the other side to figure out what to do.
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:05 pm

hOMSaR wrote:
These decisions certainly went hand-in-hand, and undoubtedly were the result of lengthy negotiations.

While both parties wanted out of the deal, neither one wanted to be the one to be stuck with all of the penalties associated with breaking the contract, while each was probably hoping the other would flinch first.

Neither party woke up one day, called the other out of the blue and said “hey, the deal’s off,” leaving the other side to figure out what to do.

It was a long process.

We had the whole 20+18 order that was being used as bait for a new RR engine, STC's call for "copper bottomed guarantees" from RR on the engines, EK snubbing Airbus at the Dubai Air Show while ordering 40 787-10s, etc.

It was pretty unthinkable for many that Airbus would wind up the A380 as soon as it is, but in the end there was no way forward without a new engine, and there was not enough orders to justify a new engine.
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JayinKitsap
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:55 pm

Revelation wrote:
FG: Widebody doubts stall Emirates' Airbus and Boeing negotiations has some strong statements from STC about both GE and RR and the products they fly on.

I was going to try to summarize it, but he really has nothing positive to say about any of the major new programs EK has various commitments to, i.e. GE, RR, 787, 777, A330 and A350.

Note he treats 787 as a live LOI and in play due to the 777X renegotiation, and he complains that he is not being kept in the loop about 777-8X delay/shelving/whatever, and says it makes little sense to continue re-negotiations in the current climate.


U turn Al has issued many similar sound bites. Loosely translated it means: "I ordered too many planes, decided what to buy based on glossy brochures. The fine print indicates the engines, etc, and what other things I can complain about needs to be presented so I can reduce / change this order without penalty." STC is still probably miffed that he is still getting 11 more A380's with the RR engines that are not meeting contract targets.

If all those added A380's have to be purchased or have quite high lease rates due to the short asset life, it would ruin almost anyone's day. STC needs to grumble about the 779 so he can be sure of compensation for Boeing's delay, even though he now prefers this delay.

Interesting times.
 
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:21 pm

Checklist787 wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:

Yeeess!! with pleasure ! :bigthumbsup:


"Airlines Could Be Told To Inspect Airbus A350-900 Engine Mounts"

https://simpleflying.com/airbus-a350-engine-mounts/amp/

French source
https://finance.orange.fr/bourse/articl ... 6sKCc.html

Is that all? Hardly an issue compared to the Rollers at the 787 or the PW nightmare with the A32xneo...


My sources as well as those of "Lightsaber", should be enough ... :thumbsup:

I don't want a misinterpretation of what I posted. I know of one diversion due to an IFSD, that could have possibly trigger contract provision. Engine mounts couldn't possibly trigger the contract provisions, yet. So I consider the a350 portion of the order safe. The a330 portion of the order, could definitely be in danger because the t1000 is not performing as promised.

Emirates will have performance guarantees and that includes the engine is part of any order. To me it sounds like Emirates is looking for the carpet provision to get out of jail free. if the contract was written so sloppy there is a carpet provision to not accept delivery, that is the fault of Airbus and Rolls-Royce not delving into the contract deep enough.

Emirates use the engine provision, which Rolls-Royce was obviously in violation of, to cancel the A380 and get deposits back. are bison Rolls-Royce made lemonade by turning the deposits into a 350 and a 330 orders.

I posted before a link on how Boeing is being very aggressive with the 787 and how GE is being very aggressive with their engine. Emirates has in my opinion found a better deal and is trying to take it.

Obviously I'm speculating off things I've read. I have no horse in this race, I don't know the facts. I'm just reading tea leaves and speculating as an enthusiast.

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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:35 pm

Now Bloomberg gives its rendtition at https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... y-sputters

Emirates President Tim Clark delivered a broadside against Airbus SE and Boeing Co. as well as their biggest engine suppliers, saying he’s no longer prepared to take delivery of aircraft that don’t meet specifications.

The veteran airline executive, who oversees the world’s largest international carrier, said he’s run out of patience with glitches that have held up new models or forced costly groundings for emergency repairs. He likened the nuisance to purchasing a new luxury car, only to have the dealer warn that the engine will need changing after three months.

“That’s not going to happen any more,” Clark said at a briefing Wednesday in London. “When they’re ready to give us what they’re contracted to do then we will have an assessment of the number and type of aircraft that are going to be used.”

It'd be odd if the only actual contract still enforceable is the old A380 order, and Airbus + RR end up having to deliver on that, whilst they've clearly started winding down that operation.

Outside of that, it seems STC does have a lot of leverage to apply.
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:44 pm

Revelation wrote:
FG: Widebody doubts stall Emirates' Airbus and Boeing negotiations has some strong statements from STC about both GE and RR and the products they fly on.

I was going to try to summarize it, but he really has nothing positive to say about any of the major new programs EK has various commitments to, i.e. GE, RR, 787, 777, A330 and A350.

Note he treats 787 as a live LOI and in play due to the 777X renegotiation, and he complains that he is not being kept in the loop about 777-8X delay/shelving/whatever, and says it makes little sense to continue re-negotiations in the current climate.

Wow... In that FG article professor STC took everyone, except the 787 powered by GE, to detention by the ear.

Did STC just attend the AAB school of contract negotiations?

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seabosdca
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:31 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Did STC just attend the AAB school of contract negotiations?


This is exactly what I was thinking as I read the posts before yours. Seems very AAB-esque to complain about all the airframe and engine OEMs, cast all orders into doubt, and do it all very publicly through whatever media outlets will print a story.

In fairness, it has been a rough few years for widebody engine OEMs. But Tim needs his smaller planes and he needs to be rid of his albatross of an A380 order (which also has engine performance issues associated with it). This is a play for concessions, with the ball totally in the air.

I think in the end the result that would work best would be Trent-powered 787 + A350 + 77X. The A330neo doesn't seem like an ideal product i the long term. The key to that result would be Boeing finding near-term 787 slots to give to Tim at a price he will accept, as availability reportedly was part of the driver for the A330neo order. Honestly Boeing, reaping the fat part of the 787 pricing curve right now, may not have enough incentive to provide discounted slots (especially on 787-10s) so soon.
 
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:15 am

seabosdca wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Did STC just attend the AAB school of contract negotiations?


This is exactly what I was thinking as I read the posts before yours. Seems very AAB-esque to complain about all the airframe and engine OEMs, cast all orders into doubt, and do it all very publicly through whatever media outlets will print a story.

In fairness, it has been a rough few years for widebody engine OEMs. But Tim needs his smaller planes and he needs to be rid of his albatross of an A380 order (which also has engine performance issues associated with it). This is a play for concessions, with the ball totally in the air.

I think in the end the result that would work best would be Trent-powered 787 + A350 + 77X. The A330neo doesn't seem like an ideal product i the long term. The key to that result would be Boeing finding near-term 787 slots to give to Tim at a price he will accept, as availability reportedly was part of the driver for the A330neo order. Honestly Boeing, reaping the fat part of the 787 pricing curve right now, may not have enough incentive to provide discounted slots (especially on 787-10s) so soon.

I agree with the fleet. As to 787 slots, Boeing will have the option to delay some customers for 2021 slots. That helps fill up 2022 (with pushed slots) in addition to a multi year order.

This is very AAB pushing for that better deal... Not how I think about STC. In particular the negotiating in the press.

This makes me wonder if the Dubai Airshow will be a dud for orders. This has the feel of "I am not ready to sign."

Lightsaber
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