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lightsaber
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:32 am

OMG, I missed quotes, STC is playing hardball!

“if there is one cent missing from the final payment” yet airlines are often willing to accept a machine they know has problems.

He said Emirates will do not do so any longer.

“Is that not unreasonable?” he asked. “We have 615 people on 15 or 20 of these [A380] aircraft that we own flying around, and if an engine doesn’t work or a part fails, they are stranded at Heathrow or Frankfurt or Auckland. The consequential damage to us is huge because I have to get rid of 615 passengers. I have to disperse them on other carriers, which I have to pay. I have to pay the punitive damages that the Europeans or New Zealand is imposing on us under their consumer protection legislation.”


https://finance.yahoo.com/amphtml/news/ ... 015708.htm

STC just declared he is a graduate with honors of the AAB school of negotiation! Wow! Basically singled out he won't accept A380s. Probably not anything until contracts are resolved.

Did he send EK inspectors to AAB's school of carpet inspection.

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foxtrotbravo21
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:16 am

its more so that Emirates have enough planes for now and is even putting some A380s to parked for sometime, hence there is no real rush to get ne planes at this time.
 
marcelh
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:40 am

lightsaber wrote:
The a330 portion of the order, could definitely be in danger because the t1000 is not performing as promised.

T1000? I thought the A330neo has the T7000? :s
 
DWC
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:10 am

Revelation wrote:
Airbus is criminally negligent if it lets EK walk away from 39 A380s based on RR's inability to perform to STC's satisfaction, I'm not buying it.

STC cannot walk away, EK need to serve all EU destinations to make money & balance their eastern banks.
With EK/EY downsizing & the EU3 appetite growing to serve Asia as they used to, the ME3 better walk nice & strait.
With or without Brexit, considering the importance of the UK to EK, they will buy RR, there are politics involved.
UK & EU can do without the ME3. Commecially, RR needs to solve their problems fast. They are about to repeat the L-1011 fiasco.
Oh wait, they have, A380 was ended sooner at a similar number of frames ( I am aware there are other reasons, but well... )
 
Checklist787
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:51 am

DWC wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Airbus is criminally negligent if it lets EK walk away from 39 A380s based on RR's inability to perform to STC's satisfaction, I'm not buying it.

STC cannot walk away, EK need to serve all EU destinations to make money & balance their eastern banks.
With EK/EY downsizing & the EU3 appetite growing to serve Asia as they used to, the ME3 better walk nice & strait.
With or without Brexit, considering the importance of the UK to EK, they will buy RR, there are politics involved.
UK & EU can do without the ME3. Commecially, RR needs to solve their problems fast. They are about to repeat the L-1011 fiasco.
Oh wait, they have, A380 was ended sooner at a similar number of frames ( I am aware there are other reasons, but well... )


The worst of all is that the A300's and DC-10's were engined by GE VS L-1011 /RR tandem... :spit:
 
tullamarine
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Thu Sep 05, 2019 4:35 am

Jefford717 wrote:

As far as the GE9x for the upcoming 777x, GE seems to know what the problem is and know hows to fix it. Fingers crossed.

This sentence makes no sense; it seems the writer lost confidence just as they were about to hit the full-stop.
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:00 am

DWC wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Airbus is criminally negligent if it lets EK walk away from 39 A380s based on RR's inability to perform to STC's satisfaction, I'm not buying it.

STC cannot walk away, EK need to serve all EU destinations to make money & balance their eastern banks.
With EK/EY downsizing & the EU3 appetite growing to serve Asia as they used to, the ME3 better walk nice & strait.
With or without Brexit, considering the importance of the UK to EK, they will buy RR, there are politics involved.
UK & EU can do without the ME3. Commecially, RR needs to solve their problems fast. They are about to repeat the L-1011 fiasco.
Oh wait, they have, A380 was ended sooner at a similar number of frames ( I am aware there are other reasons, but well... )


There are no politics involved between RR and EK.
 
RB211trent
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:19 am

Checklist787 wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
The concern of RR engines may give them the right to get rid of litigation if Airbus does not honor its contract either. This is speculation on my part but would be really a blow if it happens for RR and Airbus tandem...

A lot of A.netters wouldn’t mind....


Yeeess!! with pleasure ! :bigthumbsup:


"Airlines Could Be Told To Inspect Airbus A350-900 Engine Mounts"

https://simpleflying.com/airbus-a350-engine-mounts/amp/

French source
https://finance.orange.fr/bourse/articl ... 6sKCc.html

I don’t think your living in the real world. Aircraft and Engines of all manufacturers need to do inspections of various parts all the time, just look at the EASA AD list....it’s massive. To start stating the XWB has problems because it needs an NDT inspection around the mount is clutching at straws to say the least.
 
HaulSudson
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:30 am

lightsaber wrote:
The a330 portion of the order, could definitely be in danger because the t1000 is not performing as promised.



Lightsaber


Excuse me, but the T1000 is not powering any a330.

The T7000 is.

What are the performance issues with the T7000?

Which promise has not been kept?
 
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:41 am

HaulSudson wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
The a330 portion of the order, could definitely be in danger because the t1000 is not performing as promised.



Lightsaber


Excuse me, but the T1000 is not powering any a330.

The T7000 is.

What are the performance issues with the T7000?

Which promise has not been kept?


So far there is no report of problems with the T7000 but the engine is based on the T1000-TEN and that's why the reference keeps being mentioned.
 
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Faro
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:51 am

xwb777 wrote:
Tim has again stated that the airline might replace part of the B777Xs with the smaller B787. Speaking on the B787 commitment, the airline boss won't commit to the type until RR has resolved all the engine issues.

In regards to the A330NEO and A350 contract, Sir Tim is not happy with RR as they arenot delivering engines within the rules of the game he established and thus the contract might not be completed until RR delvers what he wants.



The GE9X and Trent 1000 issues are known...what on earth are the technical problems with the Trent XWB and Trent 7000?...


Faro
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mjoelnir
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:56 am

AECM wrote:
HaulSudson wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
The a330 portion of the order, could definitely be in danger because the t1000 is not performing as promised.



Lightsaber


Excuse me, but the T1000 is not powering any a330.

The T7000 is.

What are the performance issues with the T7000?

Which promise has not been kept?


So far there is no report of problems with the T7000 but the engine is based on the T1000-TEN and that's why the reference keeps being mentioned.


The T7000 is based on the T1000ten, but it is not the T1000ten. So far there has not been any problems reported with the T7000, apart from RR has been a bit slow to produce them.

I assume that the T7000 has all the fixes RR is busy upgrading the various T1000 up to.

AFAIK the problems on the T1000 are getting fixed, but there are still quite a few engines out there, that have to see a workshop to get those fixes and there is a limited MRO capacity to do this work.

There have not been any reported performance issues with the T7000. Performance should be an par with the newest engines on the 787.

If we get to the GEnx, that engine has not been without trouble. I just mention the icing problem, that had more than one iteration.

Meanwhile the GE9x engines are delayed, having I assume an impact on the EIS of the 777-9.

So I think, that Tim Clark is talking about being underwhelmed in regards to both engine manufacturers in regards to availability and reliability. And even the GP7270 on the A380 is causing trouble now.
 
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:24 am

lightsaber wrote:
I agree with the fleet. As to 787 slots, Boeing will have the option to delay some customers for 2021 slots. That helps fill up 2022 (with pushed slots) in addition to a multi year order.

This is very AAB pushing for that better deal... Not how I think about STC. In particular the negotiating in the press.

This makes me wonder if the Dubai Airshow will be a dud for orders. This has the feel of "I am not ready to sign."

This is the same STC who gave an almighty snub to Airbus at last year's Dubai Airshow when he couldn't get his copper bottomed guarantees on RR's engines.

It seems he's quite willing to use the stage he's been given these days.

So far we have three sources reporting the news (Reuters, Bloomberg and FG) so he certainly said these things to a large enough audience.

I think you are right, the message is don't expect anything at this year's Dubai Airshow.

Heck, the EK A380 retirement thread tells us they aren't even going to upgrade the F cabin on A380s so they can't even fall back on a glitzy interior upgrade announcement for the show.

enzo011 wrote:
You are very much aware of the problems GE is having with the 777X engine right now, I would be much more concerned about their 777X order than worrying about the A380 with RR engines. Its not like any of the engine OEMs are having a great time right now with all of their new engines.

We have rightly praised A350 program for their 'stop and fix' approach during development, rather than building tons of frames needing months if not years to rework.

We should give GE the same praise with regard to GE9X.

Of course everyone wants to get it right the first time, but it's better to take a slip up front rather than leave customers stranded all around the world as we've seen with PW GTF and T1000.
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:51 am

Revelation wrote:
We have rightly praised A350 program for their 'stop and fix' approach during development, rather than building tons of frames needing months if not years to rework.

We should give GE the same praise with regard to GE9X.

Of course everyone wants to get it right the first time, but it's better to take a slip up front rather than leave customers stranded all around the world as we've seen with PW GTF and T1000.



Yes we should, but then again we have only recently read about the problems so we don't really know how big the problem is and if they had any choice in the decision to top and fix. But that is neither here nor there with regards to this discussion, what I see is that Tim Clark is using the problems engines OEMs are having as a negotiation tactic with Airbus and Boeing on their current and future orders. We don't know how much the A380s they still have on order will mean the A330neo and A350 order will be cemented, nor do we know how the 777X delays will play into the 787 order we keep reading about either. Seems like Clark will use all the leverage he has right now and all programs are up for either losing orders or winning big (other than the A380 that is).
 
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:57 am

While I perfectly understand Sir Tim’s frustration about recent engine teething troubles could EK be legally preparing major fleet/order changes or even cancellations?

Performance below contract would be a legal reason to walk out of any contract without fines or similar.
 
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:31 pm

enzo011 wrote:
But that is neither here nor there with regards to this discussion, what I see is that Tim Clark is using the problems engines OEMs are having as a negotiation tactic with Airbus and Boeing on their current and future orders.

Sure, but he's not wrong when it comes to the impact that some of the recent introductions have had on the operators.

He's doing whatever he can do to make sure EK avoids such issues.

I'm not sure he's being overly cautious, given how we've seen DY almost taken out of the game due to unpredictable T1000 and 737 issues.

He's also got the track record of being vocal about RR not making performance and durability targets on T900.

I don't think this is unwarranted or even much of a change in STC's behavior.

Sure, some of it is due to the fact that EK is going through tough times, but it's natural to be more tolerant in good times and less tolerant in bad times.
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:35 pm

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... vi-460678/ has some more focused comments from STC:

“We are not in a business to deal with aircraft that don’t function properly. The reason we buy new aircraft is to get five to six years of hassle-free operations on a technical basis.”

“The levels of legislation underpinning consumer protection …means that if we get a passenger to the other side of the planet three hours late, we are subjected to ferocious financial penalties, if they are due to a technical issue with our aircraft,” he says.

“This forces us to say to the manufacturers: ‘You must give us aeroplanes and engines that work from day one without any restrictions.’”

He's not wrong.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:51 pm

Revelation wrote:
enzo011 wrote:
But that is neither here nor there with regards to this discussion, what I see is that Tim Clark is using the problems engines OEMs are having as a negotiation tactic with Airbus and Boeing on their current and future orders.

Sure, but he's not wrong when it comes to the impact that some of the recent introductions have had on the operators.

He's doing whatever he can do to make sure EK avoids such issues.

I'm not sure he's being overly cautious, given how we've seen DY almost taken out of the game due to unpredictable T1000 and 737 issues.

He's also got the track record of being vocal about RR not making performance and durability targets on T900.

I don't think this is unwarranted or even much of a change in STC's behavior.

Sure, some of it is due to the fact that EK is going through tough times, but it's natural to be more tolerant in good times and less tolerant in bad times.


He's also got a track record for buying RR knowning full well that the engine was not good on the 380 desert sand issues.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:12 pm

FrenchPotatoEye wrote:
He's also got a track record for buying RR knowning full well that the engine was not good on the 380 desert sand issues.

IMO his aim was to give RR enough business to launch an A380neo.

He came pretty close to getting that done, but fell short.

He is also buying 777X without the luxury of someone else working out the teething pains of the new engines, new wings, system upgrades, etc.

It may be an interesting next few years for EK.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:16 pm

FrenchPotatoEye wrote:
Revelation wrote:
enzo011 wrote:
But that is neither here nor there with regards to this discussion, what I see is that Tim Clark is using the problems engines OEMs are having as a negotiation tactic with Airbus and Boeing on their current and future orders.

Sure, but he's not wrong when it comes to the impact that some of the recent introductions have had on the operators.

He's doing whatever he can do to make sure EK avoids such issues.

I'm not sure he's being overly cautious, given how we've seen DY almost taken out of the game due to unpredictable T1000 and 737 issues.

He's also got the track record of being vocal about RR not making performance and durability targets on T900.

I don't think this is unwarranted or even much of a change in STC's behavior.

Sure, some of it is due to the fact that EK is going through tough times, but it's natural to be more tolerant in good times and less tolerant in bad times.


He's also got a track record for buying RR knowning full well that the engine was not good on the 380 desert sand issues.


The desert sand issue impacts longevity only, caught by RR through the hours on wing flying contracts. The GP seems to have more serious issues getting older, like dropping the fan for example.
 
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:41 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
FrenchPotatoEye wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Sure, but he's not wrong when it comes to the impact that some of the recent introductions have had on the operators.

He's doing whatever he can do to make sure EK avoids such issues.

I'm not sure he's being overly cautious, given how we've seen DY almost taken out of the game due to unpredictable T1000 and 737 issues.

He's also got the track record of being vocal about RR not making performance and durability targets on T900.

I don't think this is unwarranted or even much of a change in STC's behavior.

Sure, some of it is due to the fact that EK is going through tough times, but it's natural to be more tolerant in good times and less tolerant in bad times.


He's also got a track record for buying RR knowning full well that the engine was not good on the 380 desert sand issues.


The desert sand issue impacts longevity only, caught by RR through the hours on wing flying contracts. The GP seems to have more serious issues getting older, like dropping the fan for example.


Only 1 gp engine fan drop off. Trent 900 has had far more incidents, like that qwantas engine blowing up.

EK hasn't had a gp engine do that, but it is suffring with the 900 engines Trent.
 
bob75013
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:24 pm

FrenchPotatoEye wrote:
Revelation wrote:
enzo011 wrote:
But that is neither here nor there with regards to this discussion, what I see is that Tim Clark is using the problems engines OEMs are having as a negotiation tactic with Airbus and Boeing on their current and future orders.

Sure, but he's not wrong when it comes to the impact that some of the recent introductions have had on the operators.

He's doing whatever he can do to make sure EK avoids such issues.

I'm not sure he's being overly cautious, given how we've seen DY almost taken out of the game due to unpredictable T1000 and 737 issues.

He's also got the track record of being vocal about RR not making performance and durability targets on T900.

I don't think this is unwarranted or even much of a change in STC's behavior.

Sure, some of it is due to the fact that EK is going through tough times, but it's natural to be more tolerant in good times and less tolerant in bad times.


He's also got a track record for buying RR knowning full well that the engine was not good on the 380 desert sand issues.


Sounds a little like the movie "Network" ( at least that's what I think it was called)

The famous line in the movie went something like "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going totake it anymore."
 
Armodeen
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:44 pm

Emirates once again showing that their commitments mean nothing.
 
ewt340
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:51 pm

I feel like they would be changing their strategy soon enough. The A380/B777-300ER era might be ending sooner than we are expecting.

I won't be surprised if B787-9 and A350-900 became the face of Emirates in upcoming future.
 
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Thu Sep 05, 2019 4:14 pm

marcelh wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
The a330 portion of the order, could definitely be in danger because the t1000 is not performing as promised.

T1000? I thought the A330neo has the T7000? :s

Mechanically, they are the same. It is typical to have a new airframe using an existing engine have contractual provisions on the prior engine to demonstrate reliability.

The T7000 is the T1000 with bleed and missing the massive generator. For items related to turbine durability, they are similar.

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MIflyer12
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Thu Sep 05, 2019 4:38 pm

Armodeen wrote:
Emirates once again showing that their commitments mean nothing.


His negotiating tactics won't necessarily win: uncertainty will just get priced in by Boeing, Airbus, GE, RR, etc.
 
cpd
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:03 pm

FrenchPotatoEye wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
FrenchPotatoEye wrote:

He's also got a track record for buying RR knowning full well that the engine was not good on the 380 desert sand issues.


The desert sand issue impacts longevity only, caught by RR through the hours on wing flying contracts. The GP seems to have more serious issues getting older, like dropping the fan for example.


Only 1 gp engine fan drop off. Trent 900 has had far more incidents, like that qwantas engine blowing up.

EK hasn't had a gp engine do that, but it is suffring with the 900 engines Trent.


That qwantas engine failure was a manufacturing fault, since that I think they’ve been fairly dependable at qwantas.

I don’t think the qwantas issue is necessarily applicable to this discussion.

Qantas also doesn’t operate its planes in dusty/sandy environments much either.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:16 pm

lightsaber wrote:
The T7000 is the T1000 with bleed and missing the massive generator. For items related to turbine durability, they are similar.

Lightsaber


And the T7000 has the new version of the parts that RR is exchanging in the older engines.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:25 pm

FrenchPotatoEye wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
FrenchPotatoEye wrote:

He's also got a track record for buying RR knowning full well that the engine was not good on the 380 desert sand issues.


The desert sand issue impacts longevity only, caught by RR through the hours on wing flying contracts. The GP seems to have more serious issues getting older, like dropping the fan for example.


Only 1 gp engine fan drop off. Trent 900 has had far more incidents, like that qwantas engine blowing up.

EK hasn't had a gp engine do that, but it is suffring with the 900 engines Trent.


The Qantas engine failure was a defined manufacturing fault. No uncontained failures since than.

The GP fan failure seems to have a wider implication.

https://www.americanmachinist.com/news/ ... nspections

Perhaps you will remember that the fan was found on or in the Greenland ice cap, allowing the parts to be inspected.
 
patrickjp93
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:29 pm

STC could swap the 787-10 engines out for the GEnx. NZ did that for their latest order because of the improved efficiency of the latest GEnx engines coming off the lines.
 
patrickjp93
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:45 pm

majano wrote:
Ok, you claimed that EK does not want the A330neo or the A350 but would rather have the 787. You claimed that it was due to the Trent 1000 persistent problems. I argued that your position was baseless since the A350 is powered by the Trent XWB and appears to be performing adequately for now. You are now making another claim, that the A330neo and A350 unconfirmed orders will be cancelled. You offer no basis for this claim. You then conclude by claiming that GE, whose engines have delayed the 777X programme for months, is taking a more precautious route. Again, on what basis? I do not wish to drag this thread off-topic (Clark's dissatisfaction with engine OEMs) so I will leave you to it.


I can offer up "A" technical reason why Tim Clark would potentially axe the A350 and A330 NEO and vie for the Boeing 777X and 787.

Fleet Consolidation.

The A380s going bye-bye removes Rolls Royce AND PW from the engine maintenance equation. It also removes Airbus from the craft maintenance equation. EK can get better bulk pricing from Boeing and GE on maintenance by getting rid of all other crafts.

Now, the flip side to this is the 777-9 does not have the range needed to cover some of EK's longer routes such as DXB-AKL and DXB-LAX, and the 787-10 does not have the range to cover some of their longer 777-300ER routes either, so there will be some pinholes put into their network that can't be filled immediately/optimally. The 777-8 has the range needed for all routes, but not the capacity, and that craft may very well die on the drawing board if Boeing doesn't win Project Sunrise. Just look at the order book.

Going with the A350 instead of the 787-10 lets Clark do two things: cover all needed route distances with 1 frame type, and up/down-gauge 777-300ER flights as needed, though not able to down-gauge to the degree of the 787-10.

So the key to that strategic decision is how fast EK sees mid-distance market passenger loads falling. If it's fast enough, the 787-10 is the correct choice, and some can be converted to -9s if the long-range markets start to soften as well.

The only thing Airbus could do at this point to win the bid is promise STC The a350-1100 NEO with the Trent Ultrafan. That gives room for the A350-800 to come back as well since the economics will have shifted. THAT would let Clark nuke 2/3 of his 777X orders since he could then swing the other direction around a single frae with just vastly better operational economics for the same if not better passenger economics at all needed ranges.
 
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:27 pm

Or perhaps Sir Tim just wants to keep British folk employed......or he has a shitload of stock...
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:52 pm

I have a feeling that EK is finding that there are ALWAYS limits to growth, and they may have bumped into theirs sooner than expected. I think a lot of the histrionics and drama we are seeing is STC trying, without admitting it, to get out of some contracts for airliners that he realizes he will not have enough passengers to fill or pilots to fly.
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:36 pm

patrickjp93 wrote:
majano wrote:
Ok, you claimed that EK does not want the A330neo or the A350 but would rather have the 787. You claimed that it was due to the Trent 1000 persistent problems. I argued that your position was baseless since the A350 is powered by the Trent XWB and appears to be performing adequately for now. You are now making another claim, that the A330neo and A350 unconfirmed orders will be cancelled. You offer no basis for this claim. You then conclude by claiming that GE, whose engines have delayed the 777X programme for months, is taking a more precautious route. Again, on what basis? I do not wish to drag this thread off-topic (Clark's dissatisfaction with engine OEMs) so I will leave you to it.


I can offer up "A" technical reason why Tim Clark would potentially axe the A350 and A330 NEO and vie for the Boeing 777X and 787.

Fleet Consolidation.

The A380s going bye-bye removes Rolls Royce AND PW from the engine maintenance equation. It also removes Airbus from the craft maintenance equation. EK can get better bulk pricing from Boeing and GE on maintenance by getting rid of all other crafts.

Now, the flip side to this is the 777-9 does not have the range needed to cover some of EK's longer routes such as DXB-AKL and DXB-LAX, and the 787-10 does not have the range to cover some of their longer 777-300ER routes either, so there will be some pinholes put into their network that can't be filled immediately/optimally. The 777-8 has the range needed for all routes, but not the capacity, and that craft may very well die on the drawing board if Boeing doesn't win Project Sunrise. Just look at the order book.

Going with the A350 instead of the 787-10 lets Clark do two things: cover all needed route distances with 1 frame type, and up/down-gauge 777-300ER flights as needed, though not able to down-gauge to the degree of the 787-10.

So the key to that strategic decision is how fast EK sees mid-distance market passenger loads falling. If it's fast enough, the 787-10 is the correct choice, and some can be converted to -9s if the long-range markets start to soften as well.

The only thing Airbus could do at this point to win the bid is promise STC The a350-1100 NEO with the Trent Ultrafan. That gives room for the A350-800 to come back as well since the economics will have shifted. THAT would let Clark nuke 2/3 of his 777X orders since he could then swing the other direction around a single frae with just vastly better operational economics for the same if not better passenger economics at all needed ranges.

EK is an MRO. We could be stalled on maintenance/compensation terms.

There will be no A380 NEO.

I see evidence aircraft deals are better today and EK is renegotiating. EK has leverage to over inspect aircraft and deny acceptance and eventually refuse advance payment.

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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:31 am

Checklist787 wrote:
Engine problems have been identified even for the A350 Trent XWB.


The problems you mentioned were a big nothingburger.


Checklist787 wrote:
For this purpose we can actually consider an attraction for the 787-10 and the GEnx could be a relevant solution

But the GEnx has icing problems.
First to fly the 787-9
 
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:39 am

Back to the headline: So Emirates has now only to order A330 Neo with the Trent 7000 and the A350 with the Trent XWB, as these seems to be flawless.

And they have to avoid the B787 with the Trent 1000, especially when not produced in Everett. Also these from Charleston will already be delivered with all the tools and equipment, like ladders, to repair these badly produced jets. And you will have much fun and can play nice games, who will find the forgotten ladders and tools in the jets first?

The B777X seems now to have a bad start with the new engines....
 
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:46 am

zkojq wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
Engine problems have been identified even for the A350 Trent XWB.


The problems you mentioned were a big nothingburger.


Checklist787 wrote:
For this purpose we can actually consider an attraction for the 787-10 and the GEnx could be a relevant solution

But the GEnx has icing problems.

The icing problems were solved by software years ago and some minor mods:
https://atwonline.com/engines/faa-manda ... dification

As noted, a nothingburger on the GEnX (I happen to agree the TXWB issues aren't worth discussing).

There is a reason the majority of 787 engine orders are GE now (845 GE vs. 475 RR per wikipedia). In fact, GE is starting to walk away with the orders (recently ANZ, QR, Royal Jordanian, Etihad, Vistara, ALC, to bring known orders to 63% GE. The 757 we debated engines until the end (RR was about 60%, going from memory), so I'm sure we'll debate this until the last 787 is delivered.

Considering EY and QR just firmed GEnX engines, they could sweep the ME3 for the 787 engine selection.

Personally, it seems as if EK needs to slow cash burn. Recent orders have better terms. EK maintains aircraft, so there could be MRO parts of the contract to negotiate.

But STC has good cause on the T1000. Since that is very related to the T7000 and the T7000 is far too new to show the 787 issues, Not the best link, but there is some evidence the A330NEO is having trouble too. Due to the A380 RR engine missing performance/dispatch reliability and the bad issues on the 787, I believe STC is indeed concerned.
https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... t-a330neos


But also seems like he was caught on a bad day with a headache. Seriously, those quotes are very out of character for him.

Lightsaber

Late edit: The #1 issue of T7000 engines is late delivery!
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... ort-target

Obviously due to trying to fix T1000 engines (compatible parts).
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Scotron12
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:53 am

It did not stop LH ordering the T1000 for their recent order for 20 787-9s, did it?

And can anyone point to any issue that any airline operating the A350 has with the XWB??
 
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:35 am

SEPilot wrote:
I have a feeling that EK is finding that there are ALWAYS limits to growth, and they may have bumped into theirs sooner than expected. I think a lot of the histrionics and drama we are seeing is STC trying, without admitting it, to get out of some contracts for airliners that he realizes he will not have enough passengers to fill or pilots to fly.


I am sure it is a big part of it. Their current orders for `150 777x, plus the A330 & A350's in exchange for the A380 orders is almost more than their current fleet.

It would take massive growth to absorb that even if all planes over 12 years are retired. If they hit a plateau the quarterly reports could be quite scary.
 
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:41 am

Revelation wrote:
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/emirates-clark-delivers-broadside-to-oems-on-servi-460678/ has some more focused comments from STC:

“We are not in a business to deal with aircraft that don’t function properly. The reason we buy new aircraft is to get five to six years of hassle-free operations on a technical basis.”

“The levels of legislation underpinning consumer protection …means that if we get a passenger to the other side of the planet three hours late, we are subjected to ferocious financial penalties, if they are due to a technical issue with our aircraft,” he says.

“This forces us to say to the manufacturers: ‘You must give us aeroplanes and engines that work from day one without any restrictions.’”

He's not wrong.


He's whining about laws to compensate pax due to delay but he conveniently forgets that airlines also get compensations from OEMs for issues that cause revenue loss. IMO, it is nothing but negotiation tactics along with the realisation that other airlines are competing hard and overflying the middle east a lot due to the new generation efficient aircraft so they need to cut back orders.
 
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:01 am

Revelation wrote:
“This forces us to say to the manufacturers: ‘You must give us aeroplanes and engines that work from day one without any restrictions.’”


A350XWB it is then, and its Trent XWB's ..... :)

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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:03 am

I think that people here are reading too much into it. Manufacturing and design defects are part of doing business in this industry. Airbus and Boeing have warranty clauses and well established protocols for dealing with these issues, that's why they are Airbus and Boeing and not Airbus, Boeing, Comac, Bombardier, Dornier, Sukhoi.

IMO EK just has an upcoming deadline to firm the A380 to A339/A350 conversion, Boeing is probably offering a sweet deal to keep the B787 going strong through 2026, so EK is threatening to let Airbus build A380's only to reject them at the delivery ceremony.

At the end of the day though, a superconnector in the desert only works when you are sending the Super's into megacities to feed the network.
How else will their network absorb the additional capacity coming from smaller widebodies operating additional secondary routes? People flying to and from smaller cities fly to megacities and rarely to other smaller cities.

EK really needs 3 widebody types.
For every 10 A339/B787 that they add, they will need to upgrade several B777 flights to A380 and add frequencies with B777's.

If they start downsizing, it's like trying to dismantle a house of playing cards.
 
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:43 am

Are there problems with the RR T1000-TENs or was it just the original packages?
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:00 am

lightsaber wrote:
OMG, I missed quotes, STC is playing hardball!

“if there is one cent missing from the final payment” yet airlines are often willing to accept a machine they know has problems.

He said Emirates will do not do so any longer.

“Is that not unreasonable?” he asked. “We have 615 people on 15 or 20 of these [A380] aircraft that we own flying around, and if an engine doesn’t work or a part fails, they are stranded at Heathrow or Frankfurt or Auckland. The consequential damage to us is huge because I have to get rid of 615 passengers. I have to disperse them on other carriers, which I have to pay. I have to pay the punitive damages that the Europeans or New Zealand is imposing on us under their consumer protection legislation.”


https://finance.yahoo.com/amphtml/news/ ... 015708.htm

STC just declared he is a graduate with honors of the AAB school of negotiation! Wow! Basically singled out he won't accept A380s. Probably not anything until contracts are resolved.

Did he send EK inspectors to AAB's school of carpet inspection.

Lightsaber


I could be wrong but he STC seems to be like a guy that’s DESPERATE and under extreme pressure and he pointing the finger at everyone else. He is acting out of character that I’ve seen since following him.
Surprising what he’s making public basic stuff almost weird. Reeks of desperation to me.
 
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:07 am

bhill wrote:
Or perhaps Sir Tim just wants to keep British folk employed......or he has a shitload of stock...


I doubt he has any stock....EK is not listed.
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:53 am

Pellegrine wrote:
Are there problems with the RR T1000-TENs or was it just the original packages?


Around April 2019 premature blade deterioration of the HPT was found on SIA B78X with RR1000 TEN.
 
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:36 am

Can someone tell me why people keep banging on about T900 issues at Emirates, there is an issue with turbine durability but it’s being managed with fleet management. The best performing engine on the 380 is the T900. 10 out of 15 operators selected the T900 and it was selected by Emirates because it was the best engine offered.
 
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:37 am

RB211trent wrote:
Can someone tell me why people keep banging on about T900 issues at Emirates, there is an issue with turbine durability but it’s being managed with fleet management.

In the context of this thread, that is a bit different than ‘You must give us aeroplanes and engines that work from day one without any restrictions', no?

STC certainly let the world know he did not like the way the T900 situation was being addressed as it unfolded.

'Fleet management' suggests more engine swaps than planned thus more down time than planned.

That's the kind of restriction STC is trying to avoid.

A quote from https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ne-460655/

Meanwhile Clark says that the firming up of its deal for A330neos and A350s, both of which are exclusively powered by Rolls-Royce, has been delayed due to concerns about the engines’ ability to meet its specific performance requirements.

“We were ready and willing to complete that contract months ago. But we have some concerns that [Rolls-Royce] is not in a position to give us engines under our rules of the game.”

Seems he prefers his rules of the game, without the need for unexpected 'fleet management'.
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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:39 am

grbauc wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
OMG, I missed quotes, STC is playing hardball!

“if there is one cent missing from the final payment” yet airlines are often willing to accept a machine they know has problems.

He said Emirates will do not do so any longer.

“Is that not unreasonable?” he asked. “We have 615 people on 15 or 20 of these [A380] aircraft that we own flying around, and if an engine doesn’t work or a part fails, they are stranded at Heathrow or Frankfurt or Auckland. The consequential damage to us is huge because I have to get rid of 615 passengers. I have to disperse them on other carriers, which I have to pay. I have to pay the punitive damages that the Europeans or New Zealand is imposing on us under their consumer protection legislation.”


https://finance.yahoo.com/amphtml/news/ ... 015708.htm

STC just declared he is a graduate with honors of the AAB school of negotiation! Wow! Basically singled out he won't accept A380s. Probably not anything until contracts are resolved.

Did he send EK inspectors to AAB's school of carpet inspection.

Lightsaber


I could be wrong but he STC seems to be like a guy that’s DESPERATE and under extreme pressure and he pointing the finger at everyone else. He is acting out of character that I’ve seen since following him.
Surprising what he’s making public basic stuff almost weird. Reeks of desperation to me.


I totally agree, Normally in business (that I know of) you don't run to the contract, you run to what is reasonable and acceptable at the time and normally good willed people on both sides get reasonable outcomes as this builds relationships for future prosperity. When you have to work to the contract something has gone wrong.

There have been many issues with regards to EK and DWC recently and it looks as if EK might be realising they are in too deep for the current market, it seems as if its behaviour mirroring, he's being given a hard time so he's giving people a hard time, unfortunately for EK they will (or already have) lost their influence over A&B with regards to aircraft design/performance.

If EK were a publicly traded company would you be buying stock? If you had EK stock would you be selling it?

Edit: just to add that yesterday, out of the blue, my daughter (3years old and the only other person in the house at the time) came to tell me that she "Hasn't dropped the peanut butter". Point being that STC is too vocal at the moment.

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Re: Reuters: Tim Clark: won't take new planes unless engines are truly ready

Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:08 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
There have been many issues with regards to EK and DWC recently and it looks as if EK might be realising they are in too deep for the current market, it seems as if its behaviour mirroring, he's being given a hard time so he's giving people a hard time, unfortunately for EK they will (or already have) lost their influence over A&B with regards to aircraft design/performance.

Everyone knew EK was a growth company.

Like most growth companies they grow till they hit their peak, then they need to transition to becoming a mature company, or risk losing the gains made during the growth period.

I think most of us knew EK would have a hard time recognizing when to make the switch.

Their very identity seems to be wrapped around being a growth company, transitioning to maturity is hard.

Personally, I think STC is not wrong about vendors not living up to their sides of the relationship at a time where the penalty for not performing is higher than ever.

Personally, I don't think he is trying to shed orders in the way some suggest, but I do feel he is pushing for better terms across the board.

All this shows he does have the kind of leverage some suggest he does not have.

Clearly he has great influence on how the 777x program progresses.

Clearly he is holding the draw down of the A380 program hostage till he signs an agreement transferring orders to A330/A350.

That's a lot of leverage, even before you consider what impact his orders could have on A330/A350/B787.
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