TheKennady2
Topic Author
Posts: 133
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:09 pm

Are Air Marshals needed in the US anymore?

Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:31 am

I understand the federal Air Marshal program has existed in some capacity for nearly 60 years, however it was dramatically expanded after 9/11( as were many Gov agencies). However, have Air Marshals ever actually foiled or prevented any terrorism? Seems like billions have been spent on a program that has likely done little more than inflate egos, create needless paranioa and cater to hero complexes. Most threats are indeed imaginary, and Air marshalls have a history of arrests, misconduct, and stress induced mental health issues. I think its more likely that passengers would be able subdue any would be attackers as more people are aware of the threat of Bombings or hijackings(even though the threat is minimal), and guys with Guns and complexes on planes can maybe make situations worse like we saw in Miami in 2005 with the Rigoberto Alpizar incident. Any comments would be appreciated.
 
cpd
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Re: Are Air Marshals needed in the US anymore?

Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:42 am

Given the disputes in the following topic maybe so:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1430865
 
Antarius
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Re: Are Air Marshals needed in the US anymore?

Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:46 am

The same question can be asked about the TSA, who basically manage to score a zero on any red team test.

Terrorism succeeds when it manages to make people feel terror. And gosh darn it, we continue to act terrified.
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BTV290
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Re: Are Air Marshals needed in the US anymore?

Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:31 am

In my experience, Air Marshals now mainly help in non-terrorism situations. I've had multiple flights come in where we get warned of a situation that occurred on board... Passenger had a psychotic break, altercation between passengers, etc., and the air marshals stepped in to help. Several of those situations, it was actually VERY handy they were on board. So I'd say maybe for their original purpose (terrorism) no, but for the realities of flying in 2019, I think yes.
 
aviatorcraig
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Re: Are Air Marshals needed in the US anymore?

Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:14 am

I'm no expert on the US Air Marshal program but I understand they are armed with guns. There has never been any suggestion that Air Marshals got involved in any of the four hijackings on 9/11 when the hijackers were armed with fists and box cutters.
Although it is obviously such a small sample, can we therefore conclude that Air Marshals travel on less than a quarter of commercial flights in the US? and how did the hijackers know there were no Air Marshals on those particular flights?
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TheKennady2
Topic Author
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Re: Are Air Marshals needed in the US anymore?

Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:18 am

BTV290 wrote:
In my experience, Air Marshals now mainly help in non-terrorism situations. I've had multiple flights come in where we get warned of a situation that occurred on board... Passenger had a psychotic break, altercation between passengers, etc., and the air marshals stepped in to help. Several of those situations, it was actually VERY handy they were on board. So I'd say maybe for their original purpose (terrorism) no, but for the realities of flying in 2019, I think yes.


I agree about the Terrorism part, but the sad part its not thier job to babysit silly members of the Public who dont know how to act, i guess its a sign of the times though. Still i see the program as being a waste, it likely in some situations can cause more conflict if people who are specially trained to take down terrorists instead have to deal with a few unruly passengers, and turn them over to the Police(which would happen anyway Air Marshalls or not).
 
Dalmd88
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Re: Are Air Marshals needed in the US anymore?

Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:19 pm

I was once questioned by a pair of Air Marshals. They were wondering why I did the same spoke to hub right bask to spoke flight as them. The airline ID was my answer. Had to go to hub headquarters for fingerprints for a new ID. They were real cool about it.

I think the fact I told them not to bother showing me their ID because I knew they were Marshals did bother them. They were surprised I figured it out on our flight from the spoke. I told them everything I noticed and they had a real eye opener how much they stood out to someone who was looking for them.

I still think the program has it usefulness. The fact they MAY be on a random flight is a deterrence. How many terror plots has that fact inter feared with?
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Are Air Marshals needed in the US anymore?

Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:24 pm

aviatorcraig wrote:
Although it is obviously such a small sample, can we therefore conclude that Air Marshals travel on less than a quarter of commercial flights in the US? and how did the hijackers know there were no Air Marshals on those particular flights?


I don't see how you derive can we therefore conclude that Air Marshals travel on less than a quarter of commercial flights ?

AFAIK, the Air Marshall program was greatly expanded following 9/11. I don't this national security officials or politicians really want us to know the fraction of flights on which they are found.
 
bravotango75
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Re: Are Air Marshals needed in the US anymore?

Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:42 pm

“They’re not needed, until they’re needed...”
 
musman9853
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Re: Are Air Marshals needed in the US anymore?

Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:47 pm

Dalmd88 wrote:
I was once questioned by a pair of Air Marshals. They were wondering why I did the same spoke to hub right bask to spoke flight as them. The airline ID was my answer. Had to go to hub headquarters for fingerprints for a new ID. They were real cool about it.

I think the fact I told them not to bother showing me their ID because I knew they were Marshals did bother them. They were surprised I figured it out on our flight from the spoke. I told them everything I noticed and they had a real eye opener how much they stood out to someone who was looking for them.

I still think the program has it usefulness. The fact they MAY be on a random flight is a deterrence. How many terror plots has that fact inter feared with?


I don't think they've ever stopped any plot. Same with the TSA.
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wjcandee
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Re: Are Air Marshals needed in the US anymore?

Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:46 pm

musman9853 wrote:
Dalmd88 wrote:
I was once questioned by a pair of Air Marshals. They were wondering why I did the same spoke to hub right bask to spoke flight as them. The airline ID was my answer. Had to go to hub headquarters for fingerprints for a new ID. They were real cool about it.

I think the fact I told them not to bother showing me their ID because I knew they were Marshals did bother them. They were surprised I figured it out on our flight from the spoke. I told them everything I noticed and they had a real eye opener how much they stood out to someone who was looking for them.

I still think the program has it usefulness. The fact they MAY be on a random flight is a deterrence. How many terror plots has that fact inter feared with?


I don't think they've ever stopped any plot. Same with the TSA.


The goal is deterrence. The goal is public safety. They haven't interfered with any on-the-plane hijack attempts because there haven't been any.

The naysayers might just as well say that because there have been no successful terrorist acts in Times Square that the NYPD and FBI and CIA shouldn't be working every day all over the world to prevent them.

The FAM program is now substantially-larger than it was on 9/11. That marshals often help flight crews deal with violent, deranged, drunk or other problematic non-hijackers is an indication that they are out there in numbers.

Air Marshals, by the way, have the highest marksmanship scores across the board of any law enforcement agency in the US. So they are no slouches.

And the reason the program continues is simple: Would politicians/the-media/the-public be asking "How did this happen? Where were the air marshals?" if there were another incident? Why yes they would.

The fact is that as imperfect as TSA and Homeland Security are, they do a hell of a job and they give the flying public a sense that it's not the Wild West out there; that there are layers of security at least attempting to keep them safe.
 
TheOldDude
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Re: Are Air Marshals needed in the US anymore?

Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:08 pm

musman9853 wrote:
Dalmd88 wrote:
I was once questioned by a pair of Air Marshals. They were wondering why I did the same spoke to hub right bask to spoke flight as them. The airline ID was my answer. Had to go to hub headquarters for fingerprints for a new ID. They were real cool about it.

I think the fact I told them not to bother showing me their ID because I knew they were Marshals did bother them. They were surprised I figured it out on our flight from the spoke. I told them everything I noticed and they had a real eye opener how much they stood out to someone who was looking for them.

I still think the program has it usefulness. The fact they MAY be on a random flight is a deterrence. How many terror plots has that fact inter feared with?


I don't think they've ever stopped any plot. Same with the TSA.


If by "stopped any plot" do you mean any plot that advanced to the stage of getting through TSA, and once through, executed on board an aircraft? If so, you may well be right. However, if you mean stopping a plot by increasing the risk to the point that the plotters did not seek to execute the plot, you should consider that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Personally, I'd much rather have plots not attempted than attempted and failed.
 
glideslope900
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Re: Are Air Marshals needed in the US anymore?

Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:27 pm

The current system acts as a deterrent. It would be foolish to implement more lax security. Then, when something happens, those beauracrats that were in favor of eliminating these security programs will feel the pain. Apparently 9/11 had already been forgotten.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Are Air Marshals needed in the US anymore?

Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:27 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Air Marshals, by the way, have the highest marksmanship scores across the board of any law enforcement agency in the US. So they are no slouches.


Of course, between various incidents of blown cover, mislaid weapons, and the shooting in Miami (of a fleeing suspect IINM) a few years ago, those guns seem to have caused many more problems than they have solved.
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xxcr
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Re: Are Air Marshals needed in the US anymore?

Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:43 pm

Even with today's security, i'd rather have them there and not need them....then need them and not having them there. I've sat next to a few air marshals, not the friendliest people but i feel better having them there.
 
SEU
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Re: Are Air Marshals needed in the US anymore?

Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:51 pm

With the almost daily shootings going on in America, having a marshal should be 100% nessassary
 
IPFreely
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Re: Are Air Marshals needed in the US anymore?

Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:50 pm

glideslope900 wrote:
The current system acts as a deterrent. It would be foolish to implement more lax security. Then, when something happens, those beauracrats that were in favor of eliminating these security programs will feel the pain. Apparently 9/11 had already been forgotten.


Agreed. I always laugh at the pomposity of people who want to disband air marshals and the TSA on the grounds they haven't prevented anything. If these people practice what they preach, they would go without health and car insurance, since insurance doesn't keep them from getting sick or getting in an accident. But I'm sure they don't.
 
TheKennady2
Topic Author
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Re: Are Air Marshals needed in the US anymore?

Sun Sep 08, 2019 7:01 pm

IPFreely wrote:
glideslope900 wrote:
The current system acts as a deterrent. It would be foolish to implement more lax security. Then, when something happens, those beauracrats that were in favor of eliminating these security programs will feel the pain. Apparently 9/11 had already been forgotten.


Agreed. I always laugh at the pomposity of people who want to disband air marshals and the TSA on the grounds they haven't prevented anything. If these people practice what they preach, they would go without health and car insurance, since insurance doesn't keep them from getting sick or getting in an accident. But I'm sure they don't.


Terrible comparison, Insurance companies dont have monopolies over the masses nor are they are potentially a hazard to public safety or the right to a certain amount of privacy, not do they attract personality types that crave power or Hero complexes. Private companies could do airport Security, Air marshalls are just there to play a part, preying on public fear in order to Justify thier jobs.
 
IPFreely
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Re: Are Air Marshals needed in the US anymore?

Sun Sep 08, 2019 7:19 pm

TheKennady2 wrote:
Terrible comparison, Insurance companies dont have monopolies over the masses nor are they are potentially a hazard to public safety or the right to a certain amount of privacy, not do they attract personality types that crave power or Hero complexes.


Just because you have a highly biased opinion about something does not make it a fact.
 
KFTG
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Re: Are Air Marshals needed in the US anymore?

Sun Sep 08, 2019 7:23 pm

Yes they are, especially with the rise in white supremacist terrorism in the US.
 
musman9853
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Re: Are Air Marshals needed in the US anymore?

Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:06 pm

wjcandee wrote:
musman9853 wrote:
Dalmd88 wrote:
I was once questioned by a pair of Air Marshals. They were wondering why I did the same spoke to hub right bask to spoke flight as them. The airline ID was my answer. Had to go to hub headquarters for fingerprints for a new ID. They were real cool about it.

I think the fact I told them not to bother showing me their ID because I knew they were Marshals did bother them. They were surprised I figured it out on our flight from the spoke. I told them everything I noticed and they had a real eye opener how much they stood out to someone who was looking for them.

I still think the program has it usefulness. The fact they MAY be on a random flight is a deterrence. How many terror plots has that fact inter feared with?


I don't think they've ever stopped any plot. Same with the TSA.


The goal is deterrence. The goal is public safety. They haven't interfered with any on-the-plane hijack attempts because there haven't been any.

The naysayers might just as well say that because there have been no successful terrorist acts in Times Square that the NYPD and FBI and CIA shouldn't be working every day all over the world to prevent them.

The FAM program is now substantially-larger than it was on 9/11. That marshals often help flight crews deal with violent, deranged, drunk or other problematic non-hijackers is an indication that they are out there in numbers.

Air Marshals, by the way, have the highest marksmanship scores across the board of any law enforcement agency in the US. So they are no slouches.

And the reason the program continues is simple: Would politicians/the-media/the-public be asking "How did this happen? Where were the air marshals?" if there were another incident? Why yes they would.

The fact is that as imperfect as TSA and Homeland Security are, they do a hell of a job and they give the flying public a sense that it's not the Wild West out there; that there are layers of security at least attempting to keep them safe.



Uhh TSA misses 95% of threats. They're completely useless

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/in ... gh-n367851
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Cubsrule
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Re: Are Air Marshals needed in the US anymore?

Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:29 pm

musman9853 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
musman9853 wrote:

I don't think they've ever stopped any plot. Same with the TSA.


The goal is deterrence. The goal is public safety. They haven't interfered with any on-the-plane hijack attempts because there haven't been any.

The naysayers might just as well say that because there have been no successful terrorist acts in Times Square that the NYPD and FBI and CIA shouldn't be working every day all over the world to prevent them.

The FAM program is now substantially-larger than it was on 9/11. That marshals often help flight crews deal with violent, deranged, drunk or other problematic non-hijackers is an indication that they are out there in numbers.

Air Marshals, by the way, have the highest marksmanship scores across the board of any law enforcement agency in the US. So they are no slouches.

And the reason the program continues is simple: Would politicians/the-media/the-public be asking "How did this happen? Where were the air marshals?" if there were another incident? Why yes they would.

The fact is that as imperfect as TSA and Homeland Security are, they do a hell of a job and they give the flying public a sense that it's not the Wild West out there; that there are layers of security at least attempting to keep them safe.



Uhh TSA misses 95% of threats. They're completely useless

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/in ... gh-n367851


Is there evidence that TSA is worse than the hodgepodge of private contractors they replaced?
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wjcandee
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Re: Are Air Marshals needed in the US anymore?

Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:33 pm

musman9853 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
musman9853 wrote:

I don't think they've ever stopped any plot. Same with the TSA.


The goal is deterrence. The goal is public safety. They haven't interfered with any on-the-plane hijack attempts because there haven't been any.

The naysayers might just as well say that because there have been no successful terrorist acts in Times Square that the NYPD and FBI and CIA shouldn't be working every day all over the world to prevent them.

The FAM program is now substantially-larger than it was on 9/11. That marshals often help flight crews deal with violent, deranged, drunk or other problematic non-hijackers is an indication that they are out there in numbers.

Air Marshals, by the way, have the highest marksmanship scores across the board of any law enforcement agency in the US. So they are no slouches.

And the reason the program continues is simple: Would politicians/the-media/the-public be asking "How did this happen? Where were the air marshals?" if there were another incident? Why yes they would.

The fact is that as imperfect as TSA and Homeland Security are, they do a hell of a job and they give the flying public a sense that it's not the Wild West out there; that there are layers of security at least attempting to keep them safe.



Uhh TSA misses 95% of threats. They're completely useless

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/in ... gh-n367851


That's a gross exaggeration and misrepresentation. If you really believe that, try bringing your pistol through security next time and see what happens. If you get it through, I will happily buy you a beer.
 
USAirKid
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Re: Are Air Marshals needed in the US anymore?

Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:15 pm

The other consideration that the airline security that has changed is in the event of a hijacking the cockpit door is not opening. I think the calculus that has been made is that the people not in the back of the plane are secondary to the plane itself being used as a weapon.
 
lavalampluva
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Re: Are Air Marshals needed in the US anymore?

Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:21 am

Air Marshalls aren’t needed for terrorist as much as to deal with all the crazy passengers. It seems like the slightest thing sets them off.
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ryanov
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Re: Are Air Marshals needed in the US anymore?

Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:26 am

I’d personally rather have the seat available and take my extremely good chances, but that’s just me.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Are Air Marshals needed in the US anymore?

Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:57 am

Have Air Marshalls ever been needed? They are not a preventive measure. There are there to take down terrorist or hijackers that managed to come on board, terrorists that have bypassed all screens. The idea is a bit ludicrous, because only one danger is a person with a gun or perhaps a knife, but the biggest danger is a bomb, a person with an exploding device.

To compare them with NYPD having stopped a possible terrorist act on time square, or to compare them with the FBI or CIA is just senseless.
The Air Marshalls do not work in the forefront trying to prevent a terrorist or a bomb from ever coming aboard and that is where all the serious work to prevent terrorism done with an aircraft is done.

The Air Marshalls present rather an added security risk in bringing guns to an area where no guns should be. There are accidents like unsecured guns forgotten somewhere, but no news from any terrorist taken down by Air Marshalls.

But we will never stop the undying believe of the USA society, that more guns bring added security.
 
TheKennady2
Topic Author
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Re: Are Air Marshals needed in the US anymore?

Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:06 am

mjoelnir wrote:
Have Air Marshalls ever been needed? They are not a preventive measure. There are there to take down terrorist or hijackers that managed to come on board, terrorists that have bypassed all screens. The idea is a bit ludicrous, because only one danger is a person with a gun or perhaps a knife, but the biggest danger is a bomb, a person with an exploding device.

To compare them with NYPD having stopped a possible terrorist act on time square, or to compare them with the FBI or CIA is just senseless.
The Air Marshalls do not work in the forefront trying to prevent a terrorist or a bomb from ever coming aboard and that is where all the serious work to prevent terrorism done with an aircraft is done.

The Air Marshalls present rather an added security risk in bringing guns to an area where no guns should be. There are accidents like unsecured guns forgotten somewhere, but no news from any terrorist taken down by Air Marshalls.

But we will never stop the undying believe of the USA society, that more guns bring added security.


I agree, it creates a added dynamic that could lead to more conflict and needless injury or death, i am all for guns but not on airplanes, i dont see the point, the only thing stupider than marshalls armed is giving Pilots guns.
 
TheKennady2
Topic Author
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Re: Are Air Marshals needed in the US anymore?

Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:08 am

ryanov wrote:
I’d personally rather have the seat available and take my extremely good chances, but that’s just me.

Yes, I prefer a bit more dangerous freedom than constant paranioa and potential overeactions from trained agents who really are doing much of nothing.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Are Air Marshals needed in the US anymore?

Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:10 am

As long as there are those in the world who wish Harm to the United States? We will probably need Air Marshalls. I have friends that died after hitting the World trade Center and went into the ground In Shanksville PA. on UNITED that had there Been an air Marshall on board or at least the Perception of an air Marshall on board? Some of my Friends and a Lot of Other People on those Airplanes from United and American might still be living and Loving. "The Price of Freedom is eternal vigilance"
 
TheOldDude
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Re: Are Air Marshals needed in the US anymore?

Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:08 am

mjoelnir wrote:
Have Air Marshalls ever been needed? They are not a preventive measure.


Air Marshalls change the attacker's risk equation by increasing the likelyhood of a failed attack. To the extent that the increase tips the attack decision to "no go", they are preventive.

mjoelnir wrote:
The Air Marshalls present rather an added security risk in bringing guns to an area where no guns should be.


Any defensive measure contains an element of risk.The question then becomes whether the added risk is worth it. That is no different than in the cyber or other realm.

mjoelnir wrote:
But we will never stop the undying believe of the USA society, that more guns bring added security.


I believe that's a topic for a different forum.
 
TheOldDude
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Re: Are Air Marshals needed in the US anymore?

Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:26 pm

Much of the discussion have revolved around the distinct control of "air marshall". That's not how risk analysis works. Risk analysis takes a system approach. Additionally, for this instance it's helpful to take the attacker's perspective. That perspective is helpful because the only real "win" for the good guys is when an attack is not attempted. An attacker will not attempt an attack when their risk/reward relationship is unfavorable to them.

No control is 100% effective. All can fail, some have a higher failure rate than others. Yet even the ones with a higher rate have some degree of effectiveness, and when they fail others can increase the risk sufficiently to deter the attack. Therefore, defensive measures should act together to either increase the risk to the attacker sufficiently to deter an attack.

In short, to answer the OP's question, one must look at the system of controls from the attacker's perspective. If eliminating the "air marshall" control does not increase risk to an unacceptable level, then eliminating it might be acceptable.

Then, of course, is the cost issue. That applies to both the attacker and the defender,
Last edited by TheOldDude on Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
kiowa
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Re: Are Air Marshals needed in the US anymore?

Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:27 pm

SEU wrote:
With the almost daily shootings going on in America, having a marshal should be 100% nessassary


So you are advocating having guns on airplanes?
 
slider
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Re: Are Air Marshals needed in the US anymore?

Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:30 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
The Air Marshalls present rather an added security risk in bringing guns to an area where no guns should be. There are accidents like unsecured guns forgotten somewhere, but no news from any terrorist taken down by Air Marshalls.

But we will never stop the undying believe of the USA society, that more guns bring added security.



Wrong and wrong.
 
FluidFlow
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Re: Are Air Marshals needed in the US anymore?

Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:35 pm

Right now I think they are needed especially with all the domestic terrorism going on in the US. Who knows when the first of them terrorists chooses an aircraft instead of a Walmart. For the traditional terrorism it is hard to say. I do not think it is a actually stopping them kind of attacks. What really has kept attacks like 9/11 from happening is that there is no strong group active that really wants to hit the US on home soil right now. For this kind of terror (foreign) to be good it is enough to just be noted that it was tried. If tomorrow air marshals stop 10 Taliban from hijacking an aircraft the terror groups still would have the coverage and the presence to show that their are fighting for whatever they fight for. On top of that this would trigger a reaction from the US that will cost billions, like previous (over-) recreations showed as well as it will plant the seed for more domestic issues.
The air marshal program is therefore a good thing to prevent the citizens from harm. In my eyes not keeping foreign terrorism away.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Are Air Marshals needed in the US anymore?

Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:21 pm

I am wondering how the rest of the world somehow manages without Air Marshals? :scratchchin:

Ok, so there are exceptions such as El Al and Pakistan, plus there are several low-key operations about which few details are known (which is in itself probably a good thing) e.g. Australia, Singapore and the UK (SO18/SOAP)

Also around four months ago Sri Lankan airlines "was looking to bring air marshals on board some flights". This was to address a very specific situation.
It was a proposal, but did that ever actually happen?

Historically the likes of Aeroflot and Interflug had security personnel on board some international flights, but that tended to be for a different purpose (mostly to stop the pilots defecting to the West)

Any others? Or is this mostly an American solution to American problem? If so, why?
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
Skywatcher
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Re: Are Air Marshals needed in the US anymore?

Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:28 pm

I wonder what the cost is? It is hard to answer the question otherwise in my opinion.
 
RDUDDJI
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Re: Are Air Marshals needed in the US anymore?

Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:47 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
I am wondering how the rest of the world somehow manages without Air Marshals? :scratchchin:

Any others? Or is this mostly an American solution to American problem? If so, why?


Americans tend to think throwing money at a problem always fixes it. Reality is, so few flights actually have an air marshal that they've pretty much proven themselves irrelevant. Suggesting to use a FAM to intervene in an exceedingly rare pax and/or crew dispute is a colossal waste of resources. After 9/11 pax aren't going to allow many disturbances to go unchecked.

I won't say I'm totally against the FAM program, but I would say it really should only be used when there is decent intel of a potential threat. In general, I think guns on airplanes are an extremely bad idea. The potential for an accident far outweighs it's potential value in a shootout. Think about it, do we really want shootouts at FL350 on an airplane full of dozens or hundreds of unarmed civilians. That's not going to end well. Save the money spent on that and implement more effective checkpoints/screening.
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
Virtual737
Posts: 618
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:16 am

Re: Are Air Marshals needed in the US anymore?

Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:11 pm

Several posters here have spoken about the deterrent angle. How much of a deterrent is a man with a handgun going to be against someone that was about to commit both suicide and mass murder anyway?
 
airzona11
Posts: 1533
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:44 am

Re: Are Air Marshals needed in the US anymore?

Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:21 pm

Deterrence is a valuable/harder to quantify benefits of the Air Marshall program.

TSA, on the other hand, is handicapped not being able to profile, there are many software solutions that have been introduced in many field and industries that would vastly speed up and change the way US airport security works. This is where we could really gain efficiencies.
 
n92r03
Posts: 495
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 10:46 pm

Re: Are Air Marshals needed in the US anymore?

Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:06 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
Several posters here have spoken about the deterrent angle. How much of a deterrent is a man with a handgun going to be against someone that was about to commit both suicide and mass murder anyway?


A helluva lot. Said person about to commit suicide by (along with) mass murder will not be able to do the latter. That means the good guys and gals win.
 
h1fl1er
Posts: 121
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:58 pm

Re: Are Air Marshals needed in the US anymore?

Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:06 pm

I don't see any need for them. Need should be quantifiable. Involving themselves with drunk passengers- we had drunks before 911 and they were dealt with, so the Marshals aren't at all "needed" for this.

Their supposed presence isn't deterring serious terrorism or hijacks, tbh.

there are many software solutions that have been introduced in many field and industries that would vastly speed up and change the way US airport security works.


when the software or AI notices things that we desire to strenuously wish out of existence, we are forced to shut it off
 
Reddevil556
Posts: 85
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2018 2:09 pm

Re: Are Air Marshals needed in the US anymore?

Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:57 pm

Out of curiosity: Does anyone that has posted actually have any professional experience in counter terrorism, law enforcement, or security?
Otherwise it’s biased, uneducated posting about topics you have simply formed an opinion on what you perceive and little on actual knowledge.

This thread is spiraling into a general discussion thread.
Jumped out of: C130H, C130J, C17A, C212, CH47, and UH60. Bucket list: C160, A400, C2

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