blacksoviet
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Re: Pan Am and the 747-400

Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:13 am

McDonnell Douglas should have offered them a deal on MD-11s. They could have replaced all of their 747-100s with MD-11s.

The could have kept the 747-200s and the 747SPs for high demand and long range trunk routes.

The MD-11 would have made an excellent flagship for PanAm. Had the MD-11 been available a year earlier, it could have saved the airline.
 
TriStar500
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Re: Pan Am and the 747-400

Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:37 am

luckyone wrote:
Cunard wrote:
luckyone wrote:
IIRC, PanAm’s originally ordered Tristar 500s went to United with the Pacific route sale in 1986. They didn’t linger long, and all went to Delta in 1988.


Pan Am ordered 12 L1011-500 direct from Lockheed with the first example entering the fleet in 1980, they had all left the fleet by 1986. Six examples were sold to the United Kingdom for the Royal Air Force with the first three examples arriving in 1984. The other six being acquired by United Airlines after that airline had purchased Pan Am's Pacific division and route network in 1986, these were later sold on to Delta by 1988.

It's already been stated before your post that six examples went to the RAF and not all 12 500's went to United Airlines as part of the Pan Am Pacific route sale in 1986.

Yes, thank you for the clarification. I actually stated that post and it lingered in limbo, and the other poster provided a clearer answer before my post went through. What I should have clarified is that all of United’s Tristars went to Delta.


This information is incorrect.

Of 12 Pan Am L1011-500's, 3 went to the RAF, 3 went directly to Delta and 6 went to United, of which later on 5 were sold to Delta and one to LTU.
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strfyr51
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Re: Pan Am and the 747-40027

Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:09 am

along with buying the Pan Am Pacific division United got 6 L1011-500's, 8 747-SP21's 2 747-SP 27's and 2 747-221's which got scrapped. United already Had 18 747
P--122's and bought 5 more 747-123's which we had to overhaul. the L1011-500's got Overhauled and refitted in Hong Kong China at a company Called CASL, Which I now understand is AMECO and has operations throughout ASIA, At one point we were flying EVERY Leased Rolls Royce RB211-522 in the world while our Engines were being Overhauled, We really pnly worked on the Airplanes ourselves. 000 when we brought them to SFO to Sell them. We also had 2 DC10-30's Leased from CPAIR and we bought one from Pan Am, If I recall correctly as it's been so long ago , 8647Nose numbers 3753 , 3754, and 3055.. the SP's had Nose numbers 86XX and 87XX. One is flying for NASA right now as a flying Observatory. We also flew the round the world speed record on Acft. 147UA, Nose Nbr 8647 the captain was clay Lacey One of my Lead Mechanics Mel Wienkowski was one of the flight mechanics on Board. those were good times.
 
RalXWB
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Re: Pan Am and the 747-400

Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:21 am

Ironically the 747 was the beginning of the end for Pan Am. They got too many which they could not fill and in the end were flying fossil 741s while the competition already had -400s...
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: Pan Am and the 747-40027

Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:14 am

strfyr51 wrote:
along with buying the Pan Am Pacific division United got 6 L1011-500's, 8 747-SP21's 2 747-SP 27's and 2 747-221's which got scrapped.


Actually it was 10 SP21s and 1 SP27. No -221s went to UA. PA had two -221Fs that were sold to JL a couple of years before.


strfyr51 wrote:
We also had 2 DC10-30's Leased from CPAIR and we bought one from Pan Am, If I recall correctly as it's been so long ago ,


Three were leased from CP Air and converted to -30ER for UA's needs, while 3 -10s from UA's fleet moved to Canada for the same time period.
 
jfk777
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Re: Pan Am and the 747-400

Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:17 am

Pan AM purchased the 12 L-1011-500 directly from Lockeed, they also got financing from the British because the L-1011's had Rolls Engines. This created a political scandal in England.
 
Max Q
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Re: Pan Am and the 747-40027

Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:00 pm

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
along with buying the Pan Am Pacific division United got 6 L1011-500's, 8 747-SP21's 2 747-SP 27's and 2 747-221's which got scrapped.


Actually it was 10 SP21s and 1 SP27. No -221s went to UA. PA had two -221Fs that were sold to JL a couple of years before.


strfyr51 wrote:
We also had 2 DC10-30's Leased from CPAIR and we bought one from Pan Am, If I recall correctly as it's been so long ago ,


Three were leased from CP Air and converted to -30ER for UA's needs, while 3 -10s from UA's fleet moved to Canada for the same time period.



What was involved in converting a DC10-30 to a 30ER ?
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


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SpaceshipDC10
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Re: Pan Am and the 747-40027

Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:14 pm

Max Q wrote:
What was involved in converting a DC10-30 to a 30ER ?


Mainly adding a fuel tank in the cargo hold.
 
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vhtje
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Re: Pan Am and the 747-400

Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:46 pm

DocLightning wrote:
VC10er wrote:
I often imagine what PanAm would be like today had she survived, grown and was equal in size to one of the US3. With 748i’s, 787’s and A220’s!
What would international First Class looked like? PanAm lounges. A barely changed livery.


In an alternate universe where PA survived and a different carrier (say DL) didn't, PA would simply be another of the US3. They would have a similar product to the product offered by UA, DL, or AA, but with lots of blue. And I'm pretty sure their livery would have been updated. Perhaps the original Saul Bass globe would still be in use. More likely, it would have been swooshified into something else. They'd have graduated to a sans-serif font by now (serif fonts went out between 2000 and 2010)

People would wistfully wonder what would have become of DL if they had survived. And the world would otherwise look the same.


Now come on, my good doctor, that's not very romantic, now is it? Your post is absolutely 100% accurate, of course, but not very romantic. I much prefer VC10er's starry-eyed post.
I only turn left when boarding aircraft. Well, mostly. All right, sometimes. OH OKAY - rarely.
 
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eta unknown
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Re: Pan Am and the 747-400

Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:04 pm

And I heard Boeing was really annoyed (not really the right word) at PA for not ordering more SP's and choosing the Tristar 500 instead.
 
VC10er
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Re: Pan Am and the 747-400

Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:12 pm

DocLightning wrote:
VC10er wrote:
I often imagine what PanAm would be like today had she survived, grown and was equal in size to one of the US3. With 748i’s, 787’s and A220’s!
What would international First Class looked like? PanAm lounges. A barely changed livery.


In an alternate universe where PA survived and a different carrier (say DL) didn't, PA would simply be another of the US3. They would have a similar product to the product offered by UA, DL, or AA, but with lots of blue. And I'm pretty sure their livery would have been updated. Perhaps the original Saul Bass globe would still be in use. More likely, it would have been swooshified into something else. They'd have graduated to a sans-serif font by now (serif fonts went out between 2000 and 2010)

People would wistfully wonder what would have become of DL if they had survived. And the world would otherwise look the same.


Thanks for splashing ice water on my face while I was dreaming!

Fully awake, yeah you’re probably right that PanAm would be much like one of the US3 given today’s realities. However I much prefer my dream of PamAm 748i’s along with a large fleet of 787’s in all 3 sizes, and 788’s doing transcontinental, and A220’s and some E2’s out of smaller cities, etc, etc. And have a totally gorgeous black, white and “PA sky blue” First Class already designed in my head.

Also, the PanAm globe was not designed by Saul Bass. It was designed by Ivan Chermayeff
of Chermayeff & Geismar Inc (one of the most highly regarded symbol/logo design agencies ever. Once the Jedi Knights of logo design! They also were responsible for CHASE, Mobil and the updated NBC Peacock, PBS and many more icons of 20th century corporate identity.
Pan American was NOT a serif font. It was a bespoke font designed to create a “wind swept” look- there are no serifs on the left hand side. C&G designed that “word mark” so it would be beautiful in long and short form. It was then copied by other airlines (Olympic being one)

About 1975-79 an alternative PanAm was used in Helvetica Medium- in a lame attempt to look more modern (and Helvetica was also EXTREMELY popular and over used during the 1970’s when much of design had gone south along with leisure suits and orange shag rugs) Another mistake was Helvetica was Massimo Vignnelli’s favorite typeface and about the same time designed the iconic NYC SUBWAY signage system and AmericanAirlines.

So, sure, Clipper Class would look a lot like Delta One or United Polaris- but I’m going back to a semi sleep thinking about what could have become one of the proudest of all things that represent the USA (Plus PanAm is a much cooler name than Delta, United or American!)
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
TYWoolman
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Re: Pan Am and the 747-400

Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:36 pm

VC10er wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
VC10er wrote:
I often imagine what PanAm would be like today had she survived, grown and was equal in size to one of the US3. With 748i’s, 787’s and A220’s!
What would international First Class looked like? PanAm lounges. A barely changed livery.


In an alternate universe where PA survived and a different carrier (say DL) didn't, PA would simply be another of the US3. They would have a similar product to the product offered by UA, DL, or AA, but with lots of blue. And I'm pretty sure their livery would have been updated. Perhaps the original Saul Bass globe would still be in use. More likely, it would have been swooshified into something else. They'd have graduated to a sans-serif font by now (serif fonts went out between 2000 and 2010)

People would wistfully wonder what would have become of DL if they had survived. And the world would otherwise look the same.


Thanks for splashing ice water on my face while I was dreaming!

Fully awake, yeah you’re probably right that PanAm would be much like one of the US3 given today’s realities. However I much prefer my dream of PamAm 748i’s along with a large fleet of 787’s in all 3 sizes, and 788’s doing transcontinental, and A220’s and some E2’s out of smaller cities, etc, etc. And have a totally gorgeous black, white and “PA sky blue” First Class already designed in my head.

Also, the PanAm globe was not designed by Saul Bass. It was designed by Ivan Chermayeff
of Chermayeff & Geismar Inc (one of the most highly regarded symbol/logo design agencies ever. Once the Jedi Knights of logo design! They also were responsible for CHASE, Mobil and the updated NBC Peacock, PBS and many more icons of 20th century corporate identity.
Pan American was NOT a serif font. It was a bespoke font designed to create a “wind swept” look- there are no serifs on the left hand side. C&G designed that “word mark” so it would be beautiful in long and short form. It was then copied by other airlines (Olympic being one)

About 1975-79 an alternative PanAm was used in Helvetica Medium- in a lame attempt to look more modern (and Helvetica was also EXTREMELY popular and over used during the 1970’s when much of design had gone south along with leisure suits and orange shag rugs) Another mistake was Helvetica was Massimo Vignnelli’s favorite typeface and about the same time designed the iconic NYC SUBWAY signage system and AmericanAirlines.

So, sure, Clipper Class would look a lot like Delta One or United Polaris- but I’m going back to a semi sleep thinking about what could have become one of the proudest of all things that represent the USA (Plus PanAm is a much cooler name than Delta, United or American!)



Cool Stuff. PanAm is a great brand and epitomizes even today sophisticated air-travel. It would have had such a great opportunity to harness the technology of today with it's brand sentiments of yesteryear. I always felt that if PanAm were a surviving entity today it would have partnered with JetBlue. JetBlue and PanAm co-branding everywhere! JetBlue domestic. PanAm international. Two brands. One seamless experience!
 
N649DL
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Re: Pan Am and the 747-400

Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:44 pm

DocLightning wrote:
VC10er wrote:
I often imagine what PanAm would be like today had she survived, grown and was equal in size to one of the US3. With 748i’s, 787’s and A220’s!
What would international First Class looked like? PanAm lounges. A barely changed livery.


In an alternate universe where PA survived and a different carrier (say DL) didn't, PA would simply be another of the US3. They would have a similar product to the product offered by UA, DL, or AA, but with lots of blue. And I'm pretty sure their livery would have been updated. Perhaps the original Saul Bass globe would still be in use. More likely, it would have been swooshified into something else. They'd have graduated to a sans-serif font by now (serif fonts went out between 2000 and 2010)

People would wistfully wonder what would have become of DL if they had survived. And the world would otherwise look the same.


Considering how all US3 automakers got bailed out by the government, it's controversial they let PAA die they way they did in 1991. Juan Trippe must've had some severely broken relationships with the US Government which crippled them out in favor of DL cherry picking their final assets. Either that, or many people by that point they were irrelevant anyway and were too afraid, exhausted, or pissed off at Pan Am (or all 3 combined.)

I really do think if Pan Am was bailed out by the Government, they would've existed much like how TWA did in the late 1990s. They would've had hubs at JFK and MIA and then probably mismanaged again in the mid/late 1990s and eventually combined with NW or even AW by that point. That or DL or UA would've purchased them out entirely eventually like how AA did with TW.
 
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Re: Pan Am and the 747-400

Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:47 pm

The 747s were relics of a bygone era pre-1978 deregulation. No need for planes that big on a network that had been slowly eroded down from its former glory. That and as other posters have mentioned, their financial status was so poor by 1989 nobody really wanted to do business with them. Throughout the 80s (even before Lockerbie) they were a financial basket case. Even if they weren't in such a terrible financial position at that time I don't believe they would have gone with the 744. Had they survived further into the 90s or even the 00s I have a feeling they would have gone the way of UA, AA, CO, and DL and ordered the 777 early in it's life. UA placed their original 777 order circa 1990 IINM. Or they could have continued the Airbus trend and ordered the A330 early on. Who knows.
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TYWoolman
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Re: Pan Am and the 747-400

Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:58 pm

[quote="N649DL"][quote="DocLightning"][quote="VC10er"]
VC10er said: They would've had hubs at JFK and MIA and then probably mismanaged again in the mid/late 1990s and eventually combined with NW or even AW by that point.


Can definitely see them with America West at the time. It would have provided AW the international strength to compete with the big boys and Pan Am with domestic feed and A320's. Not the best network. But enough to be totally complementary and competitive to keep what would have been separate struggling entities intact.
Last edited by TYWoolman on Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Oceanic
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Re: Pan Am and the 747-400

Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:51 pm

N649DL wrote:
They also had several orders ready to go for the A320 in and around 1989 but deferred them and IIRC, America West got few of them.


They had 16 firm orders and 34 options, powered by V2500 engines. The delivery positions were sold to Braniff in January 1989, who converted the 34 options to firm orders and took out a further 50 options. At the time, they had appreciated quite a bit in value as the A320 did not have delivery positions available for new orders until 1994, and having been ordered several years earlier were subject to favorable tax and depreciation rules, so they were an easily divestible commodity at a time when Pan Am was stretched super thin for cash. British Airways, TWA, Polaris Leasing, and United were all talking to Pan Am at the time about acquiring them but in the end Braniff made them the best offer. Delivery to Pan Am would have begun in July 1989. Braniff took delivery of the first 6 frames before it went bust and those 6 were later sold to America West.

Would have been a great looking bird. They were only 6 months away from delivery. At least some of the initial frames Braniff received had Pan Am interiors as it was too late by this point to change that. Wish there were some photos of that...

Image
 
skipness1E
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Re: Pan Am and the 747-400

Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:14 am

PanAm being first to market with the original B747-100 didn’t help. They were saddled with a large fleet of restrictive early builds whereas the Singapores and Cathays of the world bought the more advanced B747-200.
Even the Eurolegacies went -100, -200 to -400, Pan Am only ever bought new passenger -100s.
 
Newark727
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Re: Pan Am and the 747-40027

Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:03 am

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
PA had two -221Fs that were sold to JL a couple of years before.


At least one of these was active with Kalitta until 2013 or so. I photographed it taking off from LAX - it was so cool to see one of Pan Am's last new 747s!
 
N649DL
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Re: Pan Am and the 747-400

Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:11 am

Oceanic wrote:
N649DL wrote:
They also had several orders ready to go for the A320 in and around 1989 but deferred them and IIRC, America West got few of them.


They had 16 firm orders and 34 options, powered by V2500 engines. The delivery positions were sold to Braniff in January 1989, who converted the 34 options to firm orders and took out a further 50 options. At the time, they had appreciated quite a bit in value as the A320 did not have delivery positions available for new orders until 1994, and having been ordered several years earlier were subject to favorable tax and depreciation rules, so they were an easily divestible commodity at a time when Pan Am was stretched super thin for cash. British Airways, TWA, Polaris Leasing, and United were all talking to Pan Am at the time about acquiring them but in the end Braniff made them the best offer. Delivery to Pan Am would have begun in July 1989. Braniff took delivery of the first 6 frames before it went bust and those 6 were later sold to America West.

Would have been a great looking bird. They were only 6 months away from delivery. At least some of the initial frames Braniff received had Pan Am interiors as it was too late by this point to change that. Wish there were some photos of that...

Image


Oh totally! They were so close to taking on the A320s as well. The A320 interiors that were delivered to Braniff and IIRC America West had Pan Am interiors with flip down video screens. Pan Am's 747s even went through complete in and out refurbishments in the late 1980s so they were actually in good shape and a rather shame DL didn't take them on either.
 
Max Q
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Re: Pan Am and the 747-400

Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:35 am

The PAA Tristars were fine looking
aircraft, don’t really understand why they were ‘ill suited’ for its network


Seemed ideal for many of its long thin routes
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


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vhtje
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Re: Pan Am and the 747-400

Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:14 am

VC10er wrote:
About 1975-79 an alternative PanAm was used in Helvetica Medium- in a lame attempt to look more modern (and Helvetica was also EXTREMELY popular and over used during the 1970’s when much of design had gone south along with leisure suits and orange shag rugs) Another mistake was Helvetica was Massimo Vignnelli’s favorite typeface and about the same time designed the iconic NYC SUBWAY signage system and AmericanAirlines.


This is it, right?

Image

Doesn't look so bad. But it is definitely very late 1970s in look.
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juliuswong
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Re: Pan Am and the 747-400

Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:12 am

- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
Scotron12
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Re: Pan Am and the 747-400

Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:00 am

juliuswong wrote:


Appreciate the photo, but somehow doesn't look right. Maybe I need new :ugeek:
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: Pan Am and the 747-400

Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:39 am

Scotron12 wrote:
Appreciate the photo, but somehow doesn't look right. Maybe I need new :ugeek:


No need of new glasses. It's the tail logo that's not right. It's too dark and the pre-billboard version, that is smaller, with smaller title. Also, would they have transitioned to GE-powered 747s?

 
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Re: Pan Am and the 747-400

Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:48 pm

N649DL wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
Considering how all US3 automakers got bailed out by the government, it's controversial they let PAA die they way they did in 1991. Juan Trippe must've had some severely broken relationships with the US Government which crippled them out in favor of DL cherry picking their final assets. Either that, or many people by that point they were irrelevant anyway and were too afraid, exhausted, or pissed off at Pan Am (or all 3 combined.)

I really do think if Pan Am was bailed out by the Government, they would've existed much like how TWA did in the late 1990s. They would've had hubs at JFK and MIA and then probably mismanaged again in the mid/late 1990s and eventually combined with NW or even AW by that point. That or DL or UA would've purchased them out entirely eventually like how AA did with TW.


The fundamental difference is that PanAm, as big as it was, did not pose an existential threat to nearly as much of the economy should it collapse. As history has shown, there were several other players to fill the vacuum left by PanAm, and those players would use much the same supply chain. The auto industry was on the verge of collapsing and taking a LOT of supporting industries with it. Importantly, those supporting industries were spread among several Senatorial districts. the collapse of PanAm was set to only really harm 2, and those 2 would recover with PanAm successors.
 
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Re: Pan Am and the 747-40027

Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:35 pm

Newark727 wrote:
SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
PA had two -221Fs that were sold to JL a couple of years before.


At least one of these was active with Kalitta until 2013 or so. I photographed it taking off from LAX - it was so cool to see one of Pan Am's last new 747s!


I believe one of their 747SPs are still active!
 
LH707330
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Re: Pan Am and the 747-400

Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:59 pm

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
Scotron12 wrote:
Appreciate the photo, but somehow doesn't look right. Maybe I need new :ugeek:


No need of new glasses. It's the tail logo that's not right. It's too dark and the pre-billboard version, that is smaller, with smaller title. Also, would they have transitioned to GE-powered 747s?


Good catch on the color. Given PW's issues back then, they might have defected to GE as many others did on the 400, IMHO that shape looks nicer than the PW4056. Either way, the engine should have the OEM logo on it, or maybe a smaller PA logo, a bit like KLM does it.
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: Pan Am and the 747-400

Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:35 pm

N649DL wrote:
Ryanair01 wrote:
Spiderguy252 wrote:
PanAm got to a point in the 1980s when Boeing didn't want to deal with them unless they paid for planes upfront.

The up and coming Airbus was far more flexible in financing terms, hence the introduction of the A300 and A310.


That's not quite what happened. Pan Am had 747-100s; 747-200s; 747-SPs; DC10-10s; DC10-30s and L1011-500s. They wanted to replace trijets with twin jets and simplify their fleet. Although arguably too big a plane for most of their routes, Pan Am had to keep flying a sub fleet of CRAF 747s until the mid-1990s because they had a contract with the defence department to make 747s available at times of national crisis.

Airbus had already built the A300s and A310-200s as they were not taken up by other airlines. Boeing competed for the Pan Am order, but couldn't match the immediate new build delivery USP of Airbus. Boeing's offer ironically offered second-hand L1011's and A300s as a stop-gap until 767 and 737s could be delivered.

Pan Am knew the 747-SP had no future and that they'd need to order 747-400s to remain competitive across the Pacific. Because they paid too much for National Airlines and couldn't keep up the repayments, buying more new planes wasn't an option. I'm told that was a major reason why selling the Pacific Division was attractive.

The 747-400 did well trans-pacific and from SE Asia to Europe. Post 1985 Pan Am had no use for such a plane.

In direct answer to the OP question, yes Pan Am did know about it and was interested. Had things had been different they'd have ordered them for the Pacific. However, their inability to do so was in part a reason for the Pacific sale.


Also, apparently Pan Am got sweet deals on the A300 and A310 fleet. DL took on Pan Am's A310-300s (I think, or maybe they ordered them separately) but Pan Am by 1990-1991 was largely invested in having a 747, A300, A310 widebody fleet. They also had several orders ready to go for the A320 in and around 1989 but deferred them and IIRC, America West got few of them.

Prost wrote:
Did Pan Am have interest in A340s?


Yes, I honestly think they had a very strong interest in the A340 and almost ordered them.


Pan Am got caught up in a combination of a changing aviation environment, a changing regulatory environment, a declining economy, soaring interest rates, legacy overseas contracts dating from the 40's, and a horrible labor relations situation, with employee costs that were out of this world. They had a headquarters "Glass Tower" management situation that did not allow them to react well to change or issues.

In short, they were doomed.... As were most every other Legacy airline.

Each one of these requires a rather lengthy explanation, but combined they created insurmountable mountains, especially for a company frozen by a top-down bureaucracy.

Before Dereg, PA flew many routes that were subsidized, they had hubs in Berlin and Tokyo where the government paid for everything, including minimum employment levels for local job programs, The Africa flights could fly completely empty, and still be profitable. When the government wanted to cheer a Boeing, Mac, or Douglas achievement, it was PanAm that got the Federal money to buy the new toys. It was as much a propogandic symbol of American Superiority as it was an airline.

"The Juan Tripp Method" (Buying key Senators to get what he wanted ahead of everyone else) contributed to a lot of this. Howard Hughes famously rejected and denounced this kind of pay-to-play for TWA. The easy money contributed to the high employee costs, and the Unions created lots of strife, using PanAm as the "Industry leader " to drive contracts everywhere else.

When deregulation came, the pushback to change went from the top, all the way to the line. They never had a chance to make it, in the long term.
 
questions
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Re: Pan Am and the 747-400

Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:35 pm

VC10er wrote:
I often imagine what PanAm would be like today had she survived, grown and was equal in size to one of the US3. With 748i’s, 787’s and A220’s!
What would international First Class looked like? PanAm lounges. A barely changed livery.
Would they cave in to the 2 class trend or be America’s Lufthansa?


Did PanAm have lounges? If so, what were they called?
 
Max Q
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Re: Pan Am and the 747-400

Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:21 am

questions wrote:
VC10er wrote:
I often imagine what PanAm would be like today had she survived, grown and was equal in size to one of the US3. With 748i’s, 787’s and A220’s!
What would international First Class looked like? PanAm lounges. A barely changed livery.
Would they cave in to the 2 class trend or be America’s Lufthansa?


Did PanAm have lounges? If so, what were they called?



Clipper lounge ?
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


Guns and the love of them by a loud minority are a malignant and deadly cancer inflicted on American society
 
Max Q
Posts: 7718
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

Re: Pan Am and the 747-400

Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:22 am

Incidentally ‘Clipper’ was, is and always will be the coolest radio call
sign ever
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


Guns and the love of them by a loud minority are a malignant and deadly cancer inflicted on American society
 
N649DL
Posts: 587
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:21 pm

Re: Pan Am and the 747-400

Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:45 am

Max Q wrote:
questions wrote:
VC10er wrote:
I often imagine what PanAm would be like today had she survived, grown and was equal in size to one of the US3. With 748i’s, 787’s and A220’s!
What would international First Class looked like? PanAm lounges. A barely changed livery.
Would they cave in to the 2 class trend or be America’s Lufthansa?


Did PanAm have lounges? If so, what were they called?



Clipper lounge ?


See end of video from 1990 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tH7ERHxOJa4
 
User avatar
TWA772LR
Posts: 6836
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:12 am

Re: Pan Am and the 747-400

Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:16 am

Max Q wrote:
Incidentally ‘Clipper’ was, is and always will be the coolest radio call
sign ever

Speedbird and Springbok are at least honorable mentions in this case.
When wasn't America great?


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
Max Q
Posts: 7718
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

Re: Pan Am and the 747-400

Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:36 am

TWA772LR wrote:
Max Q wrote:
Incidentally ‘Clipper’ was, is and always will be the coolest radio call
sign ever

Speedbird and Springbok are at least honorable mentions in this case.



Certainly agree with that
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


Guns and the love of them by a loud minority are a malignant and deadly cancer inflicted on American society
 
questions
Posts: 2030
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:51 am

Re: Pan Am and the 747-400

Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:57 pm

N649DL wrote:
Max Q wrote:
questions wrote:

Did PanAm have lounges? If so, what were they called?



Clipper lounge ?


See end of video from 1990 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tH7ERHxOJa4


Awesome! Pan Am Clipper Club.

Interesting to note how empty the club was; quite different than the packed clubs today.
 
questions
Posts: 2030
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:51 am

Re: Pan Am and the 747-400

Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:58 pm

Max Q wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
Max Q wrote:
Incidentally ‘Clipper’ was, is and always will be the coolest radio call
sign ever

Speedbird and Springbok are at least honorable mentions in this case.



Certainly agree with that


I also liked Cactus.
 
User avatar
NameOmitted
Posts: 687
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2016 7:59 pm

Re: Pan Am and the 747-400

Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:06 pm

questions wrote:
Max Q wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
Speedbird and Springbok are at least honorable mentions in this case.



Certainly agree with that


I also liked Cactus.

Who had that?
 
Ionosphere
Posts: 226
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2016 6:46 pm

Re: Pan Am and the 747-400

Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:16 pm

questions wrote:
N649DL wrote:
Max Q wrote:


Clipper lounge ?


See end of video from 1990 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tH7ERHxOJa4


Awesome! Pan Am Clipper Club.

Interesting to note how empty the club was; quite different than the packed clubs today.


In June 1988 Pan Am had Clipper Clubs in: TXL, EZE, CCS, DTW, FRA, HAM, LHR, LAX, MEX, MIA, MUC, JFK (2 Locations), MCO, CDG, GIG, FCO, SFO, SCL, IAD, ZRH
 
User avatar
Spiderguy252
Posts: 1098
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:58 am

Re: Pan Am and the 747-400

Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:32 pm

NameOmitted wrote:
questions wrote:
Max Q wrote:


Certainly agree with that


I also liked Cactus.

Who had that?


US Airways.
Vahroone
 
SpaceshipDC10
Posts: 6431
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:44 am

Re: Pan Am and the 747-400

Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:45 pm

Spiderguy252 wrote:
NameOmitted wrote:
questions wrote:

I also liked Cactus.

Who had that?


US Airways.


Before that America West was Cactus.
 
ScottB
Posts: 6646
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

Re: Pan Am and the 747-400

Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:12 pm

TYWoolman wrote:
Can definitely see them with America West at the time. It would have provided AW the international strength to compete with the big boys and Pan Am with domestic feed and A320's. Not the best network. But enough to be totally complementary and competitive to keep what would have been separate struggling entities intact.


Pan Am + America West would have been an even bigger disaster than either was on its own. AWA went bankrupt itself in 1991 before PA folded and bringing AWA employees up to Pan Am pay levels would have made things even worse. AWA struggled for years trying to compete as a legacy-style carrier up against WN at PHX and LAS, and that was with paying their employees less than WN.
 
MR27122
Posts: 105
Joined: Sat May 06, 2017 3:00 am

Re: Pan Am and the 747-400

Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:06 pm

millionsofmiles wrote:
DWC wrote:
on a sidenote, Pan Am's "globe logo" lives on with United, introduced by Continental in 1991 the very year Pan Am folded.
Can't be a coincidence.


No. Continental’s globe...introduced in 1991...PRIOR to Pan Am’s shutdown...has NOTHING to do with the Pan Am globe.

The Pan Am globe, sadly, is owned by a railroad company...Guilford Rail System.


Umm.....sadly, since u berate others personally for "iffy" responses, Guilford Rail System, hasn't been the name of the regional rail holding company for only the past 13 years.

The PA "brand" isn't simply "owned by a railroad company", it's been the name---and identical branding---of/for the rail system holding company since March 2006.

You can use the Interwebnet-thingy to rapidly search for these things, 'don't-ya-know! Guilford Rail System :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
questions
Posts: 2030
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:51 am

Re: Pan Am and the 747-400

Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:10 am

ScottB wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
Can definitely see them with America West at the time. It would have provided AW the international strength to compete with the big boys and Pan Am with domestic feed and A320's. Not the best network. But enough to be totally complementary and competitive to keep what would have been separate struggling entities intact.


Pan Am + America West would have been an even bigger disaster than either was on its own. AWA went bankrupt itself in 1991 before PA folded and bringing AWA employees up to Pan Am pay levels would have made things even worse. AWA struggled for years trying to compete as a legacy-style carrier up against WN at PHX and LAS, and that was with paying their employees less than WN.


Can you explain this? I thought their model was closer to WN with single class 737’s. I believe they had seat assignments. Also they went a little crazy in purchasing a 747. How were they competing as a legacy-style carrier.
 
ScottB
Posts: 6646
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

Re: Pan Am and the 747-400

Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:11 pm

questions wrote:
Can you explain this? I thought their model was closer to WN with single class 737’s. I believe they had seat assignments. Also they went a little crazy in purchasing a 747. How were they competing as a legacy-style carrier.


I think they may have been single-class initially, but they ended up with several of the two-class 757s intended for RC and also added first class to some of their 737s for longer flights. They also offered meals on some flights and interestingly operated their own Dash 8s (not in a code share with a regional) for a few years until they let Mesa operate their regional flying. And they didn't just buy one 747. Moreover, they opened their own airline clubs in Terminal 4 once that opened, and they interlined with other carriers. They were much more like a legacy than they were like WN.
 
questions
Posts: 2030
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:51 am

Re: Pan Am and the 747-400

Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:07 pm

ScottB wrote:
questions wrote:
Can you explain this? I thought their model was closer to WN with single class 737’s. I believe they had seat assignments. Also they went a little crazy in purchasing a 747. How were they competing as a legacy-style carrier.


I think they may have been single-class initially, but they ended up with several of the two-class 757s intended for RC and also added first class to some of their 737s for longer flights. They also offered meals on some flights and interestingly operated their own Dash 8s (not in a code share with a regional) for a few years until they let Mesa operate their regional flying. And they didn't just buy one 747. Moreover, they opened their own airline clubs in Terminal 4 once that opened, and they interlined with other carriers. They were much more like a legacy than they were like WN.


Thanks for clarifying.
 
SpaceshipDC10
Posts: 6431
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:44 am

Re: Pan Am and the 747-400

Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:07 pm

ScottB wrote:
I think they may have been single-class initially, but they ended up with several of the two-class 757s intended for RC and also added first class to some of their 737s for longer flights.


That's right. I'm not exactly sure as to when they introduced a second class, but by 1989/90 they had purchased four 747s from KLM that were operated in two or three classes configuration. They also had orders for I believe 2+2 744s at one point but plans were shelved after they almost went bust in the early '90s and had to reduced both fleet and network.
 
questions
Posts: 2030
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:51 am

Re: Pan Am and the 747-400

Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:23 pm

juliuswong wrote:


If Pan Am existed today I could see this livery existing in a modernized way — billboard titles with new font and blue engines.

I’ve always found it interesting that no airline thought the brand value of Pan Am and TWA was valuable enough to live on.
 
BravoOne
Posts: 3614
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: Pan Am and the 747-400

Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:35 pm

Max Q wrote:
Incidentally ‘Clipper’ was, is and always will be the coolest radio call
sign ever


Frequent;y spoken as "The Clipper XX" in ATC jargon.
 
TYWoolman
Posts: 111
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:24 pm

Re: Pan Am and the 747-400

Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:19 pm

ScottB wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
Can definitely see them with America West at the time. It would have provided AW the international strength to compete with the big boys and Pan Am with domestic feed and A320's. Not the best network. But enough to be totally complementary and competitive to keep what would have been separate struggling entities intact.


Pan Am + America West would have been an even bigger disaster than either was on its own. AWA went bankrupt itself in 1991 before PA folded and bringing AWA employees up to Pan Am pay levels would have made things even worse. AWA struggled for years trying to compete as a legacy-style carrier up against WN at PHX and LAS, and that was with paying their employees less than WN.



It doesn't look like a good combination from that perspective if those are the facts at hand. It was just a thought that if a merger between AW and Pan Am was seriously entertained and the correct leadership was in place at both carriers in order to market the deal to investors and employees in the late 80's, perhaps the ails of each in the early 90's could have been averted.
 
PhilMcCrackin
Posts: 143
Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:54 pm

Re: Pan Am and the 747-400

Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:29 pm

questions wrote:
juliuswong wrote:


If Pan Am existed today I could see this livery existing in a modernized way — billboard titles with new font and blue engines.

I’ve always found it interesting that no airline thought the brand value of Pan Am and TWA was valuable enough to live on.


Pan Am has been unsuccessfully revived at least twice. AA still owns all of the intellectual property rights to the TWA brand which makes it impossible for anyone else to use them to start another airline with.

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