sprxUSA
Posts: 255
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 5:17 am

Re: OAG Changes 9/8/2019:DL Adds PDX-LAS,SEA-BZN, Shifts NRT to HND;SY Exits PVD;UA Ends CHA-IAD,EWR-DAY/YOW,EGE-IAD

Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:03 pm

enilria wrote:
sprxUSA wrote:
Why the * for ISN-MSP? Just switching to new airport (XWA) like UA last week. Nothing interesting about that.

Switching airports isn’t a big deal? I’d say it is a huge deal.


Not like they had a choice. Certainly not like the years and years of back and forth between NRT and HND starts and stops. So I guess when Stapleton closed, everyine moving to the new airport would have warrented an *? Oh wait, that would have been ending XXX-DEN and adding XXX-DEN. ;)
Gem State Airlines..."we have a gem of an airline"
 
Jshank83
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Re: OAG Changes 9/8/2019:DL Adds PDX-LAS,SEA-BZN, Shifts NRT to HND;SY Exits PVD;UA Ends CHA-IAD,EWR-DAY/YOW,EGE-IAD

Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:13 pm

Rdh3e wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
enilria wrote:

MAX Cuts rolled forward
WN AUS-EWR DEC 1.7>1.1[1.6]
WN BNA-EWR DEC 3>1.3[0]
WN BWI-EWR DEC 1.8>0.9[0]
WN EWR-MDW DEC 5>2[5]
WN EWR-PHX DEC 0.9>0.5[1.0]
WN EWR-STL DEC 1.8>0.9[1.9]



This has to be a misfile right?[

It appears they loaded the flights but have zero's out inventory on them. They are not selling seats. The lack of clarity and poor accuracy of their schedules makes one wonder if they had an intern doing the MAX reductions...


It really just made me wonder if any of the WN updates are right.
 
heretothere
Posts: 69
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:50 pm

Re: OAG Changes 9/8/2019:DL Adds PDX-LAS,SEA-BZN, Shifts NRT to HND;SY Exits PVD;UA Ends CHA-IAD,EWR-DAY/YOW,EGE-IAD

Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:18 pm

Rdh3e wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
enilria wrote:

MAX Cuts rolled forward
WN AUS-EWR DEC 1.7>1.1[1.6]
WN BNA-EWR DEC 3>1.3[0]
WN BWI-EWR DEC 1.8>0.9[0]
WN EWR-MDW DEC 5>2[5]
WN EWR-PHX DEC 0.9>0.5[1.0]
WN EWR-STL DEC 1.8>0.9[1.9]



This has to be a misfile right?[

It appears they loaded the flights but have zero's out inventory on them. They are not selling seats. The lack of clarity and poor accuracy of their schedules makes one wonder if they had an intern doing the MAX reductions...


Nothing unclear or inaccurate about it if you really look at the schedules. They’ve been pulling the MAX flying from the schedule in chunks since Nov/Dec schedules vary so much. This week they pulled down the first half of December. When they file the second half of December changes, EWR will finally go down to zero.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 2890
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Re: OAG Changes 9/8/2019:DL Adds PDX-LAS,SEA-BZN, Shifts NRT to HND;SY Exits PVD;UA Ends CHA-IAD,EWR-DAY/YOW,EGE-IAD

Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:53 pm

heretothere wrote:
Rdh3e wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:

This has to be a misfile right?[

It appears they loaded the flights but have zero's out inventory on them. They are not selling seats. The lack of clarity and poor accuracy of their schedules makes one wonder if they had an intern doing the MAX reductions...


Nothing unclear or inaccurate about it if you really look at the schedules. They’ve been pulling the MAX flying from the schedule in chunks since Nov/Dec schedules vary so much. This week they pulled down the first half of December. When they file the second half of December changes, EWR will finally go down to zero.

Ewr hasn’t been on the December schedule on the WN website for a few months. So why would it be in these updates still?
 
heretothere
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Re: OAG Changes 9/8/2019:DL Adds PDX-LAS,SEA-BZN, Shifts NRT to HND;SY Exits PVD;UA Ends CHA-IAD,EWR-DAY/YOW,EGE-IAD

Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:09 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
heretothere wrote:
Rdh3e wrote:
It appears they loaded the flights but have zero's out inventory on them. They are not selling seats. The lack of clarity and poor accuracy of their schedules makes one wonder if they had an intern doing the MAX reductions...


Nothing unclear or inaccurate about it if you really look at the schedules. They’ve been pulling the MAX flying from the schedule in chunks since Nov/Dec schedules vary so much. This week they pulled down the first half of December. When they file the second half of December changes, EWR will finally go down to zero.

Ewr hasn’t been on the December schedule on the WN website for a few months. So why would it be in these updates still?


It is still in the schedules. They’re just not selling it.
 
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enilria
Topic Author
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Re: OAG Changes 9/8/2019:DL Adds PDX-LAS,SEA-BZN, Shifts NRT to HND;SY Exits PVD;UA Ends CHA-IAD,EWR-DAY/YOW,EGE-IAD

Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:51 pm

steex wrote:
Ultimately, though, I don't see how the inclusion or exclusion of "*" matters at all for any route - no two people will ever universally agree on what is interesting and enilria is marking what he finds interesting, not what he we thinks everyone else will definitely find interesting.

Precisely :)
airtechy wrote:
So after all the NRT > HND shifts, will Delta have any flights into NRT? Hope they have as good a Sky Club at HND as the one at NRT.

I believe they are gone.
Midwestindy wrote:
N649DL wrote:
BlatantEcho wrote:
PDX-LAS on Delta. That’s pretty strange.

Non hub route. And isn’t sun country starting this?
Wonder where that came from.


Not terribly surprising considering DL is flying LAS-SJC/SAN/SNA already. I think this is just for regional demand to go to LAS only, especially with DL flying LGB-LAS starting next month.

Odd I just checked wiki and I'm surprised RDU-LAS is only seasonal considering it's a focus city.


RDU-LAS is only just now starting in January, so I don't know if it is actually seasonal, I presume it will be year-round

jetlanta wrote:
CarlosSi wrote:
Wuuut, but PDX ain’t no focus city!

*trikert*

They really should be though. Delta’s logic is absurd. I don’t mean to stir the pot here :stir:


Delta's logic is perfectly fine. You just don't understand THEIR definition of a focus city. FYI..the largest unnerved market from Las Vegas is Tokyo. And Delta no longer has connections beyond Tokyo for the PDX flight. So...


SANFan wrote:
Re: PDX-LAS on DL adds.

IMO, PDX is just late to the LAS-party. As others have posted, several w/c cities already have Vegas service on DL; e.g., SAN-LAS began Dec 2016 with 3 daily r/t and now we see ~4.

I doubt it has anything to do with turning PDX into a focus city or a major TYO connecting point. Just adding some service in a large O&D market, similar to several other cities already seeing the service.

bb


ANA787 wrote:
BlatantEcho wrote:
PDX-LAS on Delta. That’s pretty strange.

Non hub route. And isn’t sun country starting this?
Wonder where that came from.


The new LAS flights connect perfectly to/from the new PDX-HND flights. In fact it seems Delta is prioritizing this connection flight- when doing a dummy booking, LAS-PDX-HND-PDX-LAS always comes up first. I wouldn’t be surprised to see DL add additional flights at PDX to support the HND flights- possibly SAN, SJC, SFO, PHX, ANC.

CarlosSi wrote:
Wuuut, but PDX ain’t no focus city!

*trikert*

They really should be though. Delta’s logic is absurd. I don’t mean to stir the pot here :stir:

I think this has more to do with LAS than PDX......... In the past year DL/KL have added/announced PDX, LGB, RDU, and AMS from LAS, in addition to added frequencies on other routes. Looks like they are building up LAS and serving almost every major market on the west coast: SEA, PDX, LGB, SNA, LAX, SLC, SJC, SAN, and maybe more to come...

It doesn't have to do with LAS in terms of local traffic base as all these routes are only about 12% LAS point of sale, but as I said upthread I think this is about offering an FFP burn option to build loyalty in these markets. I don't think the economics of these LAS routes stand on their own.
tphuang wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

I think this has more to do with LAS than PDX......... In the past year DL/KL have added/announced PDX, LGB, RDU, and AMS from LAS, in addition to added frequencies on other routes. Looks like they are building up LAS and serving almost every major market on the west coast: SEA, PDX, LGB, SNA, LAX, SLC, SJC, SAN, and maybe more to come...


I disagree. LAS is a huge bloodbath between WN and NK going forward. I really don't see DL getting involved in that. i see this as DL is positioning itself as the legacy airline of choice in the west coast. And serving a major O&D like LAS is a great way to serve its ff.

Yeah, agreed. But I don't think these routes will be "good" by Delta margin standards. They are more loss-leaders to build brand loyalty.
heretothere wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
heretothere wrote:

Nothing unclear or inaccurate about it if you really look at the schedules. They’ve been pulling the MAX flying from the schedule in chunks since Nov/Dec schedules vary so much. This week they pulled down the first half of December. When they file the second half of December changes, EWR will finally go down to zero.

Ewr hasn’t been on the December schedule on the WN website for a few months. So why would it be in these updates still?


It is still in the schedules. They’re just not selling it.

I have a theory. I think WN now was three schedule plans it is working with. 1) Where the fleet was supposed to be. 2) The fleet minus the 737MAX that they had when they were grounded. 3) The fleet minus the 737MAX that they had when they were grounded minus the older planes that are hitting forced retirement either as a result of expensive heavy checks or contracts to release the planes. I think they file #1 and then they file #2 and then they file #3 in each schedule period.
 
Dominion301
Posts: 2256
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Re: OAG Changes 9/8/2019:DL Adds PDX-LAS,SEA-BZN, Shifts NRT to HND;SY Exits PVD;UA Ends CHA-IAD,EWR-DAY/YOW,EGE-IAD

Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:54 pm

enilria wrote:
[twoid][/twoid]
BA744PHX wrote:
enilria wrote:
WS PHX-YQR NOV 0.3>0.0[0.4] DEC 0.4>0[0.5]
WS PHX-YWG NOV 0.3>0.1[0.6] DEC 0.3>0[0.5]
WS PHX-YXE NOV 0.3>0.0[0.4] DEC 0.4>0[0.4]
WS PHX-YYZ NOV 0.4>0.1[0.6] DEC 0.4>0[0.5]


Thanks for the weekly update, this is very odd all these route are flying from October 27 - November 3rd than cut until January. I assume this is an error?

It is what they filed. All I know.


As I said earlier in the thread, these have all got to be temporary MAX suspensions. All of these are long-standing seasonal transborder routes and so far they’re only cut for Nov/Dec. If they were anything but temporary MAX suspensions, they’d be gone for the entire season.
 
tphuang
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Re: OAG Changes 9/8/2019:DL Adds PDX-LAS,SEA-BZN, Shifts NRT to HND;SY Exits PVD;UA Ends CHA-IAD,EWR-DAY/YOW,EGE-IAD

Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:57 pm

enilria wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

I think this has more to do with LAS than PDX......... In the past year DL/KL have added/announced PDX, LGB, RDU, and AMS from LAS, in addition to added frequencies on other routes. Looks like they are building up LAS and serving almost every major market on the west coast: SEA, PDX, LGB, SNA, LAX, SLC, SJC, SAN, and maybe more to come...


I disagree. LAS is a huge bloodbath between WN and NK going forward. I really don't see DL getting involved in that. i see this as DL is positioning itself as the legacy airline of choice in the west coast. And serving a major O&D like LAS is a great way to serve its ff.

Yeah, agreed. But I don't think these routes will be "good" by Delta margin standards. They are more loss-leaders to build brand loyalty.

Definitely, I'm still puzzling over the LGB-LAS addition. What are they thinking with that one?
 
BAINY3
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Re: OAG Changes 9/8/2019:DL Adds PDX-LAS,SEA-BZN, Shifts NRT to HND;SY Exits PVD;UA Ends CHA-IAD,EWR-DAY/YOW,EGE-IAD

Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:23 am

enilria wrote:
sprxUSA wrote:
EvanWSFO wrote:

Perhaps someone missed last week's discussion on this new code?



Well the same people that saw last week are probably same ones always looking at this, so I am sure they saw the various XWA notes and comments then. Additionally, odd ISN end was an *, but XWA add was not LOL.

Great to see all of this info each week, and certainly glad Enrila compiles it as well! Makes my day and almost the only useful posts on here these days.

<eye roll> it’s a new airport. I can spare them an *. If B6 switched from ORD to MDW that’s def an *.

I would have just added a little comment that says "new airport" or something; after all, other significant changes sometimes have notes with them. Otherwise, if I didn't know better, I would have assumed they were exiting the market entirely.
 
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enilria
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Re: OAG Changes 9/8/2019:DL Adds PDX-LAS,SEA-BZN, Shifts NRT to HND;SY Exits PVD;UA Ends CHA-IAD,EWR-DAY/YOW,EGE-IAD

Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:00 am

SY is not definitely returning to PVD. The last sentence would have been "SY said it plans to resume flights in Summer 2020" if they were sure they are returning. That is ominously vague.

The RIAC said passengers who have booked upcoming flights after Oct. 28 will be contacted regarding refunds.

"We have been informed by the airline that their aircraft are being re-deployed to more profitable routes during the peak winter months," said RIAC spokesperson Bill Fischer. "The 737 Max situation continues to put a higher demand on airplane availability and there has been a ripple effect across the industry because of that situation.

Seasonal services with the airline will restart in April, however, they are still evaluating their schedule for April 2020.


https://turnto10.com/news/local/sun-cou ... ter-oct-28
 
DeltaRules
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Re: OAG Changes 9/8/2019:DL Adds PDX-LAS,SEA-BZN, Shifts NRT to HND;SY Exits PVD;UA Ends CHA-IAD,EWR-DAY/YOW,EGE-IAD

Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:31 am

Cross-posting, but somebody updated the DAB and IAD Wiki pages to indicate that UA's (re)starting IAD-DAB in May. Anybody have any info to confirm this?

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1430931
A310/319/320/321/333, ARJ, BN2, B717/722/73S/733/734/735/73G/738/739/744/757/753/767/763/764/777, CR1/2/7/9, DH6, 328, EM2/ERJ/E70/E75/E90, F28/100, J31, L10/12/15, DC9/D93/D94/D95/M80/M88/M90/D10, SF3, SST
 
hollywoodcory
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Re: OAG Changes 9/8/2019:DL Adds PDX-LAS,SEA-BZN, Shifts NRT to HND;SY Exits PVD;UA Ends CHA-IAD,EWR-DAY/YOW,EGE-IAD

Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:40 am

Dominion301 wrote:
enilria wrote:
[twoid][/twoid]
BA744PHX wrote:

Thanks for the weekly update, this is very odd all these route are flying from October 27 - November 3rd than cut until January. I assume this is an error?

It is what they filed. All I know.


As I said earlier in the thread, these have all got to be temporary MAX suspensions. All of these are long-standing seasonal transborder routes and so far they’re only cut for Nov/Dec. If they were anything but temporary MAX suspensions, they’d be gone for the entire season.


They are. WS put out a posting this morning summing up all the schedule changes and temporary suspensions due to the MAX grounding.
https://blog.westjet.com/westjet-update ... -schedule/
 
GSP psgr
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Re: OAG Changes 9/8/2019:DL Adds PDX-LAS,SEA-BZN, Shifts NRT to HND;SY Exits PVD;UA Ends CHA-IAD,EWR-DAY/YOW,EGE-IAD

Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:52 am

Whoever does air service development for YOW should be fired. It's a 1.3 million population metro area. No ATL, no CLT, seasonal ORD, UAX now dropping EWR. Not exactly a terribly successful run of late.
 
ericm2031
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Re: OAG Changes 9/8/2019:DL Adds PDX-LAS,SEA-BZN, Shifts NRT to HND;SY Exits PVD;UA Ends CHA-IAD,EWR-DAY/YOW,EGE-IAD

Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:13 am

tphuang wrote:
enilria wrote:
tphuang wrote:

I disagree. LAS is a huge bloodbath between WN and NK going forward. I really don't see DL getting involved in that. i see this as DL is positioning itself as the legacy airline of choice in the west coast. And serving a major O&D like LAS is a great way to serve its ff.

Yeah, agreed. But I don't think these routes will be "good" by Delta margin standards. They are more loss-leaders to build brand loyalty.

Definitely, I'm still puzzling over the LGB-LAS addition. What are they thinking with that one?


I believe it was mentioned that they lost some SNA slots but were able to get some LGB slots, so they added LGB-LAS to make up for the lost SNA-LAS flights.
 
Dominion301
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Re: OAG Changes 9/8/2019:DL Adds PDX-LAS,SEA-BZN, Shifts NRT to HND;SY Exits PVD;UA Ends CHA-IAD,EWR-DAY/YOW,EGE-IAD

Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:32 am

GSP psgr wrote:
Whoever does air service development for YOW should be fired. It's a 1.3 million population metro area. No ATL, no CLT, seasonal ORD, UAX now dropping EWR. Not exactly a terribly successful run of late.


ORD will be resuming 3x daily year-round. It’s beyond perplexing as to why UA suspended it in the first place. Could have just dropped EWR back in June (with AC still supporting 3x daily EWR) and left ORD as-is.

How much influence the YOW Airport Authority has over air service is tough to tell. However, ATL-YOW and CLT-YOW (and AA to ORD and WS to LAS, TPA and FLL) all used to exist, and on top of that, compared with the airports in YOW’s peer group, namely YHZ, YWG and YEG, the track record is less than stellar (I.e. all those airports’ air service developments have vastly outperformed YOW). On top of that, the latter three all have two ULCCs operating to them while YOW still has none.
 
crownvic
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Re: OAG Changes 9/8/2019:DL Adds PDX-LAS,SEA-BZN, Shifts NRT to HND;SY Exits PVD;UA Ends CHA-IAD,EWR-DAY/YOW,EGE-IAD

Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:45 am

Referencing LAS-PDX, I can tell you that there are lot of connecting pax that go to LAS via SEA/LAX from Asia (despite KE operating nonstop from LAS). While I am not sure when the change will occur at PDX, eventually the 763 is going to give way to a larger a/c (i.e. A339/350), so LAS pax will have a third source for connecting to Asia. When AS/DL code shared, many DL LAS pax routed through PDX onto Asia, because PDX always seemed to have available seats. Perhaps they are thinking this strategy again.
 
hiflyeras
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Re: OAG Changes 9/8/2019:DL Adds PDX-LAS,SEA-BZN, Shifts NRT to HND;SY Exits PVD;UA Ends CHA-IAD,EWR-DAY/YOW,EGE-IAD

Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:16 am

BlatantEcho wrote:
PDX-LAS on Delta. That’s pretty strange.

Non hub route. And isn’t sun country starting this?
Wonder where that came from.


Yeah and how will AS react? Announce MCO-ATL? DL is really pushing it with this add...don't they have better things to think about like how to crush B6?
 
Chugach
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Re: OAG Changes 9/8/2019:DL Adds PDX-LAS,SEA-BZN, Shifts NRT to HND;SY Exits PVD;UA Ends CHA-IAD,EWR-DAY/YOW,EGE-IAD

Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:43 am

hiflyeras wrote:
BlatantEcho wrote:
PDX-LAS on Delta. That’s pretty strange.

Non hub route. And isn’t sun country starting this?
Wonder where that came from.


Yeah and how will AS react? Announce MCO-ATL? DL is really pushing it with this add...don't they have better things to think about like how to crush B6?


If AS reacts they’ll dump a bunch more capacity on PDX-LAS. Honestly I wouldn’t get too worked up over a couple E75 flights to one of (the?) biggest leisure destinations in the country. DL seems to have a pretty solid stable of frequent fliers in PDX; this just keeps them happy and provides some extra connection lift for PDX-HND.
 
grbauc
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Re: OAG Changes 9/8/2019:DL Adds PDX-LAS,SEA-BZN, Shifts NRT to HND;SY Exits PVD;UA Ends CHA-IAD,EWR-DAY/YOW,EGE-IAD

Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:47 am

phllax wrote:
maps4ltd wrote:
BlatantEcho wrote:
PDX-LAS on Delta. That’s pretty strange.

Non hub route. And isn’t sun country starting this?
Wonder where that came from.


In the same vein as LAS-LGB, LAS-SAN, LAS-SNA, and LAS-SEA. DL's built up a nice little west coast operation.


They are ending SNA-LAS due to the annual slot re-allocation, so this just shifts the airplanes to another close market.



Yes Delta is
And in that’s why when people start defending American Airlines west coast domestic operations (lack one/focus hub) I point them towards Delta.
P2P and there building up a hub right under the nose of a fortress city.
American Airlines needs to take a look at Delta On building up a route map because American Airlines sucks at it. American Airlines could use some of this in JFK New York market
 
Ishrion
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Re: OAG Changes 9/8/2019:DL Adds PDX-LAS,SEA-BZN, Shifts NRT to HND;SY Exits PVD;UA Ends CHA-IAD,EWR-DAY/YOW,EGE-IAD

Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:20 am

grbauc wrote:
phllax wrote:
maps4ltd wrote:

In the same vein as LAS-LGB, LAS-SAN, LAS-SNA, and LAS-SEA. DL's built up a nice little west coast operation.


They are ending SNA-LAS due to the annual slot re-allocation, so this just shifts the airplanes to another close market.



Yes Delta is
And in that’s why when people start defending American Airlines west coast domestic operations (lack one/focus hub) I point them towards Delta.
P2P and there building up a hub right under the nose of a fortress city.
American Airlines needs to take a look at Delta On building up a route map because American Airlines sucks at it. American Airlines could use some of this in JFK New York market


Didn't realize you were the VP of AA's Route Management.

Delta already has a strong operation at PDX, with flights to AMS, LHR, and NRT(HND).

AA is more focused on growing its hubs and connecting passengers to where they need to go, not point-to-point routes.

Last I remember, Delta's Atlanta hub has 1000+ departures a day and their second largest hub only has about half of that. Delta's flying is more spread out throughout the U.S.

AA has cut most of its P2P routes in recent years... looks like CUN-MCI/PIT/BNA and others are gone, FLL-PAP was cut last year.

However, AA will be adding BOS-NAS/GCM in January.
 
Scarebus34
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Re: OAG Changes 9/8/2019:DL Adds PDX-LAS,SEA-BZN, Shifts NRT to HND;SY Exits PVD;UA Ends CHA-IAD,EWR-DAY/YOW,EGE-IAD

Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:23 am

AVLAirlineFreq wrote:
enilria wrote:

*UA CAE-IAH OCT 0.7>0[1.0] NOV 1.0>0[1.0] DEC 0.9>0[1.0] JAN 0.9>0[1.0] FEB 0.8>0[1.0]

UA ILM-ORD JAN 1.0>0.1[1.2] FEB 0.4>0[1.0]



The CAE-IAH cut is really close in. Weird. Misfile?

And is the ILM-ORD cut permanent, or just going seasonal?

Nope, CAE-IAH is gone.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: OAG Changes 9/8/2019:DL Adds PDX-LAS,SEA-BZN, Shifts NRT to HND;SY Exits PVD;UA Ends CHA-IAD,EWR-DAY/YOW,EGE-IAD

Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:30 am

enilria wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

I think this has more to do with LAS than PDX......... In the past year DL/KL have added/announced PDX, LGB, RDU, and AMS from LAS, in addition to added frequencies on other routes. Looks like they are building up LAS and serving almost every major market on the west coast: SEA, PDX, LGB, SNA, LAX, SLC, SJC, SAN, and maybe more to come...


I disagree. LAS is a huge bloodbath between WN and NK going forward. I really don't see DL getting involved in that. i see this as DL is positioning itself as the legacy airline of choice in the west coast. And serving a major O&D like LAS is a great way to serve its ff.

Yeah, agreed. But I don't think these routes will be "good" by Delta margin standards. They are more loss-leaders to build brand loyalty.

A little confused on what tphuang's point is

DL is quite content with having large p2p operations in leisure markets with heavy competition, MCO, CUN, and HNL come to mind. It isn't hard to see LAS replicating that model for DL

But, saying DL doesn't want to get involved in LAS is ignoring the obvious:
In the past 2 years
New DL/KL routes added include:
LAS-SAN
LAS-RDU
LAS-LGB
LAS-SNA
LAS-PDX
LAS-AMS
LAS-BOS
not even mentioning frequency and capacity increases

I'm not suggesting a hub by any means, but it is unreasonable to dismiss the idea that DL is interested in the market, given DL's history serving tourist hotspots like CUN & MCO

hiflyeras wrote:
BlatantEcho wrote:
PDX-LAS on Delta. That’s pretty strange.

Non hub route. And isn’t sun country starting this?
Wonder where that came from.


Yeah and how will AS react? Announce MCO-ATL? DL is really pushing it with this add...don't they have better things to think about like how to crush B6?


AS reacting?...c'mon now.... this is AS we are talking about
Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
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chepos
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OAG Changes 9/8/2019:DL Adds PDX-LAS,SEA-BZN, Shifts NRT to HND;SY Exits PVD;UA Ends CHA-IAD,EWR-DAY/YOW,EGE-IAD

Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:45 am

grbauc wrote:
phllax wrote:
maps4ltd wrote:

In the same vein as LAS-LGB, LAS-SAN, LAS-SNA, and LAS-SEA. DL's built up a nice little west coast operation.


They are ending SNA-LAS due to the annual slot re-allocation, so this just shifts the airplanes to another close market.



Yes Delta is
And in that’s why when people start defending American Airlines west coast domestic operations (lack one/focus hub) I point them towards Delta.
P2P and there building up a hub right under the nose of a fortress city.
American Airlines needs to take a look at Delta On building up a route map because American Airlines sucks at it. American Airlines could use some of this in JFK New York market


Even when AA at JFK is not in the weekly OAG thread someone manages to beat that dead horse, again.

Kind of hard to follow your rambling, not sure what you are trying to say. However, I am assuming you are implying LAX is a fortress hub, which it is not.


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Re: OAG Changes 9/8/2019:DL Adds PDX-LAS,SEA-BZN, Shifts NRT to HND;SY Exits PVD;UA Ends CHA-IAD,EWR-DAY/YOW,EGE-IAD

Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:07 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
A little confused on what tphuang's point is

DL is quite content with having large p2p operations in leisure markets with heavy competition, MCO, CUN, and HNL come to mind. It isn't hard to see LAS replicating that model for DL

But, saying DL doesn't want to get involved in LAS is ignoring the obvious:
In the past 2 years
New DL/KL routes added include:
LAS-SAN
LAS-RDU
LAS-LGB
LAS-SNA
LAS-PDX
LAS-AMS
LAS-BOS
not even mentioning frequency and capacity increases

I'm not suggesting a hub by any means, but it is unreasonable to dismiss the idea that DL is interested in the market, given DL's history serving tourist hotspots like CUN & MCO

AS reacting?...c'mon now.... this is AS we are talking about

well, I have no clue what they were doing with LGB. I don't see that lasting too long.

As for the other markets, I think it's not about serving LAS, but about serving people in the other markets since they want to retain/serve ff even in places they don't have dominating presence.

hiflyeras wrote:
BlatantEcho wrote:
PDX-LAS on Delta. That’s pretty strange.

Non hub route. And isn’t sun country starting this?
Wonder where that came from.


Yeah and how will AS react? Announce MCO-ATL? DL is really pushing it with this add...don't they have better things to think about like how to crush B6?

slot constrained at JFK and gate constrained at BOS/FLL. B6 is pretty insulated from new competition these days since all its airports are already really competitive. PDX on the other hand has plenty of room for a competitor to expand in.
 
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Re: OAG Changes 9/8/2019:DL Adds PDX-LAS,SEA-BZN, Shifts NRT to HND;SY Exits PVD;UA Ends CHA-IAD,EWR-DAY/YOW,EGE-IAD

Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:23 pm

tphuang wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
A little confused on what tphuang's point is

DL is quite content with having large p2p operations in leisure markets with heavy competition, MCO, CUN, and HNL come to mind. It isn't hard to see LAS replicating that model for DL

But, saying DL doesn't want to get involved in LAS is ignoring the obvious:
In the past 2 years
New DL/KL routes added include:
LAS-SAN
LAS-RDU
LAS-LGB
LAS-SNA
LAS-PDX
LAS-AMS
LAS-BOS
not even mentioning frequency and capacity increases

I'm not suggesting a hub by any means, but it is unreasonable to dismiss the idea that DL is interested in the market, given DL's history serving tourist hotspots like CUN & MCO

AS reacting?...c'mon now.... this is AS we are talking about


As for the other markets, I think it's not about serving LAS, but about serving people in the other markets since they want to retain/serve ff even in places they don't have dominating presence.


We are saying the same thing.

As I mentioned, it is similar to CUN & MCO. It's not like DL built up CUN service to serve the local market, as there are not hordes of people from the CUN area trying to get to places like CVG, IND, CMH, e.t.c.
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Re: OAG Changes 9/8/2019:DL Adds PDX-LAS,SEA-BZN, Shifts NRT to HND;SY Exits PVD;UA Ends CHA-IAD,EWR-DAY/YOW,EGE-IAD

Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:03 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
enilria wrote:
tphuang wrote:

I disagree. LAS is a huge bloodbath between WN and NK going forward. I really don't see DL getting involved in that. i see this as DL is positioning itself as the legacy airline of choice in the west coast. And serving a major O&D like LAS is a great way to serve its ff.

Yeah, agreed. But I don't think these routes will be "good" by Delta margin standards. They are more loss-leaders to build brand loyalty.

A little confused on what tphuang's point is

DL is quite content with having large p2p operations in leisure markets with heavy competition, MCO, CUN, and HNL come to mind. It isn't hard to see LAS replicating that model for DL

But, saying DL doesn't want to get involved in LAS is ignoring the obvious:
In the past 2 years
New DL/KL routes added include:
LAS-SAN
LAS-RDU
LAS-LGB
LAS-SNA
LAS-PDX
LAS-AMS
LAS-BOS
not even mentioning frequency and capacity increases

I'm not suggesting a hub by any means, but it is unreasonable to dismiss the idea that DL is interested in the market, given DL's history serving tourist hotspots like CUN & MCO

hiflyeras wrote:
BlatantEcho wrote:
PDX-LAS on Delta. That’s pretty strange.

Non hub route. And isn’t sun country starting this?
Wonder where that came from.


Yeah and how will AS react? Announce MCO-ATL? DL is really pushing it with this add...don't they have better things to think about like how to crush B6?


AS reacting?...c'mon now.... this is AS we are talking about


How will AS react? By adding more p2p flights from San Luis Obispo and Redmond! ;)
 
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Re: OAG Changes 9/8/2019:DL Adds PDX-LAS,SEA-BZN, Shifts NRT to HND;SY Exits PVD;UA Ends CHA-IAD,EWR-DAY/YOW,EGE-IAD

Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:41 pm

enilria wrote:
*UA CHA-IAD DEC 1.6>0.2[1.6] JAN 1.8>0[1.7] FEB 2>0[1.9] MAR 2>0[2] APR 2>0[2] MAY 2>0[2] JUN 2>0[2]
UA CHA-ORD DEC 3>4[3] JAN 3>4[3] FEB 2>3[3] MAR 3>4[3] APR 3>4[3] MAY 3>4[1.9] JUN 3>4[1.9]
*UA DAY-EWR APR 1.0>0[1.0] MAY 1.0>0[1.0] JUN 1.0>0[1.0]
UA DAY-IAD APR 2>3[2.0] MAY 2>3[2] JUN 2>3[1.9]
*UA EGE-IAD DEC 0.4>0[0.4] JAN 0.3>0[0.3] MAR 0.8>0[0.8]


The CHA shuffle seems like part of continuing strategy shift to make IAD east coast hub. CHA is nearly equidistant between IAD and ORD. This will free up more connection shifts from EWR to IAD like...

DAY. Must not have had enough O&D for NYC to justify this route on its own.

Actually, a bit surprised we haven't seen more of these types of changes at a higher pace. Must be doing analysis and changing as they go as opposed to finishing analysis then making all the changes all at once. Probably easier that way. More a long term strategy than something that needs doing right away.

EGE is noteworthy since service is being eliminated, but not earthshattering. By the way, what happened to February?
 
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Re: OAG Changes 9/8/2019:DL Adds PDX-LAS,SEA-BZN, Shifts NRT to HND;SY Exits PVD;UA Ends CHA-IAD,EWR-DAY/YOW,EGE-IAD

Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:00 pm

tphuang wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
A little confused on what tphuang's point is

DL is quite content with having large p2p operations in leisure markets with heavy competition, MCO, CUN, and HNL come to mind. It isn't hard to see LAS replicating that model for DL

But, saying DL doesn't want to get involved in LAS is ignoring the obvious:
In the past 2 years
New DL/KL routes added include:
LAS-SAN
LAS-RDU
LAS-LGB
LAS-SNA
LAS-PDX
LAS-AMS
LAS-BOS
not even mentioning frequency and capacity increases

I'm not suggesting a hub by any means, but it is unreasonable to dismiss the idea that DL is interested in the market, given DL's history serving tourist hotspots like CUN & MCO

AS reacting?...c'mon now.... this is AS we are talking about

well, I have no clue what they were doing with LGB. I don't see that lasting too long.

As for the other markets, I think it's not about serving LAS, but about serving people in the other markets since they want to retain/serve ff even in places they don't have dominating presence.

I completely agree. I don't know if people fully realize LAS is 85-90% visitors and only a slim % of locals. Building loyalty "in Vegas" is irrelevant. So any efforts around LAS are about the place you fly to LAS from. They could be building a hub in LAS, but I don't think that makes much sense because the yield situation around LAS is so poor that I don't see how connecting passengers could work for DL. Even G4 doesn't see the revenue to focus on that. Same with NK.

I think we were dead on with this being an FFP burn opportunity from the outstations with the goal being to loss-leader themselves into increased loyalty in markets like PDX. I also don't get LGB, but I guess they are probably doing it just to hold a slot for future use. MCO and CUN (haven't they cut that back) are also not hubs that function the same way as a loyalty builder in Eastern markets. I don't love the strategy, but apparently it works. Where it does help them is that if they don'y fly PDX-LAS they need to connect their FFP burn pax over a hub which is completely uncompetitive from a cost point of view. This may be a sort of revenue management strategy to keep low yield connecting pax out of the hub on a one leg trip while realizing the market is necessary for loyalty.
Midwestindy wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
A little confused on what tphuang's point is

DL is quite content with having large p2p operations in leisure markets with heavy competition, MCO, CUN, and HNL come to mind. It isn't hard to see LAS replicating that model for DL

But, saying DL doesn't want to get involved in LAS is ignoring the obvious:
In the past 2 years
New DL/KL routes added include:
LAS-SAN
LAS-RDU
LAS-LGB
LAS-SNA
LAS-PDX
LAS-AMS
LAS-BOS
not even mentioning frequency and capacity increases

I'm not suggesting a hub by any means, but it is unreasonable to dismiss the idea that DL is interested in the market, given DL's history serving tourist hotspots like CUN & MCO

AS reacting?...c'mon now.... this is AS we are talking about


As for the other markets, I think it's not about serving LAS, but about serving people in the other markets since they want to retain/serve ff even in places they don't have dominating presence.


We are saying the same thing.

As I mentioned, it is similar to CUN & MCO. It's not like DL built up CUN service to serve the local market, as there are not hordes of people from the CUN area trying to get to places like CVG, IND, CMH, e.t.c.


The question I saw posed was whether this is or will be a "hub"? I say no and won't be. MCO at least is a logical point to connect to Latin America and DL doesn't have another hub South of ATL to cover that, but LAS provides nothing from a geography point of view when they are committed to LAX as a hub and as stated, the yields are crap. I think the strategy is more about not connecting. Using it for connecting would turn that on its ear.
 
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Re: OAG Changes 9/8/2019:DL Adds PDX-LAS,SEA-BZN, Shifts NRT to HND;SY Exits PVD;UA Ends CHA-IAD,EWR-DAY/YOW,EGE-IAD

Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:02 pm

capitalflyer wrote:
enilria wrote:
*UA CHA-IAD DEC 1.6>0.2[1.6] JAN 1.8>0[1.7] FEB 2>0[1.9] MAR 2>0[2] APR 2>0[2] MAY 2>0[2] JUN 2>0[2]
UA CHA-ORD DEC 3>4[3] JAN 3>4[3] FEB 2>3[3] MAR 3>4[3] APR 3>4[3] MAY 3>4[1.9] JUN 3>4[1.9]
*UA DAY-EWR APR 1.0>0[1.0] MAY 1.0>0[1.0] JUN 1.0>0[1.0]
UA DAY-IAD APR 2>3[2.0] MAY 2>3[2] JUN 2>3[1.9]
*UA EGE-IAD DEC 0.4>0[0.4] JAN 0.3>0[0.3] MAR 0.8>0[0.8]


The CHA shuffle seems like part of continuing strategy shift to make IAD east coast hub. CHA is nearly equidistant between IAD and ORD. This will free up more connection shifts from EWR to IAD like...

DAY. Must not have had enough O&D for NYC to justify this route on its own.

Actually, a bit surprised we haven't seen more of these types of changes at a higher pace. Must be doing analysis and changing as they go as opposed to finishing analysis then making all the changes all at once. Probably easier that way. More a long term strategy than something that needs doing right away.

EGE is noteworthy since service is being eliminated, but not earthshattering. By the way, what happened to February?

Maybe FEB was too heavily booked to axe.

I suspect CHA did OK to EWR, but the standard of performance for EWR is very high because of the limited capacity. So, they moved it to IAD where there was basically no local market and it went to hell. No surprise.
 
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Re: OAG Changes 9/8/2019:DL Adds PDX-LAS,SEA-BZN, Shifts NRT to HND;SY Exits PVD;UA Ends CHA-IAD,EWR-DAY/YOW,EGE-IAD

Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:05 pm

enilria wrote:
capitalflyer wrote:
enilria wrote:
*UA CHA-IAD DEC 1.6>0.2[1.6] JAN 1.8>0[1.7] FEB 2>0[1.9] MAR 2>0[2] APR 2>0[2] MAY 2>0[2] JUN 2>0[2]
UA CHA-ORD DEC 3>4[3] JAN 3>4[3] FEB 2>3[3] MAR 3>4[3] APR 3>4[3] MAY 3>4[1.9] JUN 3>4[1.9]
*UA DAY-EWR APR 1.0>0[1.0] MAY 1.0>0[1.0] JUN 1.0>0[1.0]
UA DAY-IAD APR 2>3[2.0] MAY 2>3[2] JUN 2>3[1.9]
*UA EGE-IAD DEC 0.4>0[0.4] JAN 0.3>0[0.3] MAR 0.8>0[0.8]


The CHA shuffle seems like part of continuing strategy shift to make IAD east coast hub. CHA is nearly equidistant between IAD and ORD. This will free up more connection shifts from EWR to IAD like...

DAY. Must not have had enough O&D for NYC to justify this route on its own.

Actually, a bit surprised we haven't seen more of these types of changes at a higher pace. Must be doing analysis and changing as they go as opposed to finishing analysis then making all the changes all at once. Probably easier that way. More a long term strategy than something that needs doing right away.

EGE is noteworthy since service is being eliminated, but not earthshattering. By the way, what happened to February?

Maybe FEB was too heavily booked to axe.

I suspect CHA did OK to EWR, but the standard of performance for EWR is very high because of the limited capacity. So, they moved it to IAD where there was basically no local market and it went to hell. No surprise.


There is some local traffic, but it's very loyal to the DCA service.
 
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Re: OAG Changes 9/8/2019:DL Adds PDX-LAS,SEA-BZN, Shifts NRT to HND;SY Exits PVD;UA Ends CHA-IAD,EWR-DAY/YOW,EGE-IAD

Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:30 pm

tys777 wrote:
enilria wrote:
capitalflyer wrote:

The CHA shuffle seems like part of continuing strategy shift to make IAD east coast hub. CHA is nearly equidistant between IAD and ORD. This will free up more connection shifts from EWR to IAD like...

DAY. Must not have had enough O&D for NYC to justify this route on its own.

Actually, a bit surprised we haven't seen more of these types of changes at a higher pace. Must be doing analysis and changing as they go as opposed to finishing analysis then making all the changes all at once. Probably easier that way. More a long term strategy than something that needs doing right away.

EGE is noteworthy since service is being eliminated, but not earthshattering. By the way, what happened to February?

Maybe FEB was too heavily booked to axe.

I suspect CHA did OK to EWR, but the standard of performance for EWR is very high because of the limited capacity. So, they moved it to IAD where there was basically no local market and it went to hell. No surprise.


There is some local traffic, but it's very loyal to the DCA service.

That's what I meant. No local traffic to Dulles.
 
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Re: OAG Changes 9/8/2019:DL Adds PDX-LAS,SEA-BZN, Shifts NRT to HND;SY Exits PVD;UA Ends CHA-IAD,EWR-DAY/YOW,EGE-IAD

Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:47 pm

peak86 wrote:
It isn't just WN/NK... it's F9, SY, of course G4, and now DL looks like they're getting wrapped up in this. Obviously there's a ton of demand to/from LAS, but it'll be interesting to see how any potential economic downturn impacts that the next time around... last time, Vegas turned into a ghost town

When it does, I hope it hits the hotels/casinos on the Strip hard...then maybe they'll drop all those absurd "resort" fees and pay for parking fees, and some of their fees just for sitting down in a restaurant (looking at you Cabo Wabo).
 
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Re: OAG Changes 9/8/2019:DL Adds PDX-LAS,SEA-BZN, Shifts NRT to HND;SY Exits PVD;UA Ends CHA-IAD,EWR-DAY/YOW,EGE-IAD

Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:08 pm

enilria wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
tphuang wrote:

As for the other markets, I think it's not about serving LAS, but about serving people in the other markets since they want to retain/serve ff even in places they don't have dominating presence.


We are saying the same thing.

As I mentioned, it is similar to CUN & MCO. It's not like DL built up CUN service to serve the local market, as there are not hordes of people from the CUN area trying to get to places like CVG, IND, CMH, e.t.c.


The question I saw posed was whether this is or will be a "hub"? I say no and won't be. MCO at least is a logical point to connect to Latin America and DL doesn't have another hub South of ATL to cover that, but LAS provides nothing from a geography point of view when they are committed to LAX as a hub and as stated, the yields are crap. I think the strategy is more about not connecting. Using it for connecting would turn that on its ear.


MCO is a logical place for connections, except DL has largely avoided using it for connections

I think it is clear that DL wants to build LAS in a way that they can fly from most of the major West Coast markets to LAS. However, there is something interesting going on behind the scenes here:
Here is an excerpt from DL's piece on the announcement of the BOS-LAS flight: https://news.delta.com/delta-adds-50th- ... ting-oct-1

Headline: "Delta's broad service at Las Vegas"

"....Recent Delta service increases include an additional daily flight to San Diego that began in 2017 and Seattle beginning in July 2018 for improved intra-West connectivity. Las Vegas service provides Boston customers with a new and convenient gateway to top intra-west destinations such as San Jose and Orange County, California (SNA)"

Image
*Note this doesn't even include WS, AM, KL,VS, or KE flights

But through the map you can see that LAS is well suited for these connecting opportunities. Plus, LAS also allows 1 stop service to AMS, ICN, LHR, MAN, and other int'l destinations, from places like LGB.

Again, I don't believe a hub will happen by any stretch, but a connecting complex has certainly already been somewhat formed.

All in all, the DL network is becoming a very well oiled machine
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Re: OAG Changes 9/8/2019:DL Adds PDX-LAS,SEA-BZN, Shifts NRT to HND;SY Exits PVD;UA Ends CHA-IAD,EWR-DAY/YOW,EGE-IAD

Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:43 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
enilria wrote:
But through the map you can see that LAS is well suited for these connecting opportunities. Plus, LAS also allows 1 stop service to AMS, ICN, LHR, MAN, and other int'l destinations, from places like LGB.

Again, I don't believe a hub will happen by any stretch, but a connecting complex has certainly already been somewhat formed.

All in all, the DL network is becoming a very well oiled machine


We have already started selling connection via LAS already. When booking or Rebooking. Its already a option for passengers. Thought it was weird. But now it makes sense. Ive noticed this after they announced LGB service. I wouldn’t be surprise if OAK or SMF isn't on the table for DL service in the future.
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Re: OAG Changes 9/8/2019:DL Adds PDX-LAS,SEA-BZN, Shifts NRT to HND;SY Exits PVD;UA Ends CHA-IAD,EWR-DAY/YOW,EGE-IAD

Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:49 pm

Ishrion wrote:
grbauc wrote:
phllax wrote:

They are ending SNA-LAS due to the annual slot re-allocation, so this just shifts the airplanes to another close market.



Yes Delta is
And in that’s why when people start defending American Airlines west coast domestic operations (lack one/focus hub) I point them towards Delta.
P2P and there building up a hub right under the nose of a fortress city.
American Airlines needs to take a look at Delta On building up a route map because American Airlines sucks at it. American Airlines could use some of this in JFK New York market


Didn't realize you were the VP of AA's Route Management.

Delta already has a strong operation at PDX, with flights to AMS, LHR, and NRT(HND).

AA is more focused on growing its hubs and connecting passengers to where they need to go, not point-to-point routes.

Last I remember, Delta's Atlanta hub has 1000+ departures a day and their second largest hub only has about half of that. Delta's flying is more spread out throughout the U.S.

AA has cut most of its P2P routes in recent years... looks like CUN-MCI/PIT/BNA and others are gone, FLL-PAP was cut last year.

However, AA will be adding BOS-NAS/GCM in January.



Not sure about Your VP of flight operations. Am I not allowed my opinion?
 
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Re: OAG Changes 9/8/2019:DL Adds PDX-LAS,SEA-BZN, Shifts NRT to HND;SY Exits PVD;UA Ends CHA-IAD,EWR-DAY/YOW,EGE-IAD

Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:51 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
enilria wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

We are saying the same thing.

As I mentioned, it is similar to CUN & MCO. It's not like DL built up CUN service to serve the local market, as there are not hordes of people from the CUN area trying to get to places like CVG, IND, CMH, e.t.c.


The question I saw posed was whether this is or will be a "hub"? I say no and won't be. MCO at least is a logical point to connect to Latin America and DL doesn't have another hub South of ATL to cover that, but LAS provides nothing from a geography point of view when they are committed to LAX as a hub and as stated, the yields are crap. I think the strategy is more about not connecting. Using it for connecting would turn that on its ear.


MCO is a logical place for connections, except DL has largely avoided using it for connections

I think it is clear that DL wants to build LAS in a way that they can fly from most of the major West Coast markets to LAS. However, there is something interesting going on behind the scenes here:
Here is an excerpt from DL's piece on the announcement of the BOS-LAS flight: https://news.delta.com/delta-adds-50th- ... ting-oct-1

Headline: "Delta's broad service at Las Vegas"

"....Recent Delta service increases include an additional daily flight to San Diego that began in 2017 and Seattle beginning in July 2018 for improved intra-West connectivity. Las Vegas service provides Boston customers with a new and convenient gateway to top intra-west destinations such as San Jose and Orange County, California (SNA)"

Image
*Note this doesn't even include WS, AM, KL,VS, or KE flights

But through the map you can see that LAS is well suited for these connecting opportunities. Plus, LAS also allows 1 stop service to AMS, ICN, LHR, MAN, and other int'l destinations, from places like LGB.

Again, I don't believe a hub will happen by any stretch, but a connecting complex has certainly already been somewhat formed.

All in all, the DL network is becoming a very well oiled machine


Well, crap. I would have bet that DL, having declared SJC a “focus city”, would start nonstops on SJC-BOS. Perhaps not. Now I wonder what this LAS connectivity for western markets can do what their HUB at SLC can’t??
 
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Re: OAG Changes 9/8/2019:DL Adds PDX-LAS,SEA-BZN, Shifts NRT to HND;SY Exits PVD;UA Ends CHA-IAD,EWR-DAY/YOW,EGE-IAD

Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:01 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
GSP psgr wrote:
Whoever does air service development for YOW should be fired. It's a 1.3 million population metro area. No ATL, no CLT, seasonal ORD, UAX now dropping EWR. Not exactly a terribly successful run of late.


ORD will be resuming 3x daily year-round. It’s beyond perplexing as to why UA suspended it in the first place. Could have just dropped EWR back in June (with AC still supporting 3x daily EWR) and left ORD as-is.

How much influence the YOW Airport Authority has over air service is tough to tell. However, ATL-YOW and CLT-YOW (and AA to ORD and WS to LAS, TPA and FLL) all used to exist, and on top of that, compared with the airports in YOW’s peer group, namely YHZ, YWG and YEG, the track record is less than stellar (I.e. all those airports’ air service developments have vastly outperformed YOW). On top of that, the latter three all have two ULCCs operating to them while YOW still has none.


UAX dropping YOW-ORD in it's entirety was indeed strange, almost like they expected AC to pick it up but they never did. One would have thought they would have dropped one frequency each from three different markets rather than ax YOW-ORD entirely. I do think that YOW's best peer comparison is YEG, which also only has UA to DEN and IAH, DL to MSP, and AS to SEA with no AA at all (YEG could literally not be located in a worse place vis a vis AA's hubs). That might actually be worse than what YOW gets. That said, I also think it is strange the UAX/AC JV dropped ORD-YEG entirely also (though as an oil market, one could argue IAH somewhat serves the same purpose), the fact that AA does not do ORD-YOW/YEG probably says something, although it is tough to tell with MAX shortages.
 
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Re: OAG Changes 9/8/2019:DL Adds PDX-LAS,SEA-BZN, Shifts NRT to HND;SY Exits PVD;UA Ends CHA-IAD,EWR-DAY/YOW,EGE-IAD

Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:13 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
enilria wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

We are saying the same thing.

As I mentioned, it is similar to CUN & MCO. It's not like DL built up CUN service to serve the local market, as there are not hordes of people from the CUN area trying to get to places like CVG, IND, CMH, e.t.c.


The question I saw posed was whether this is or will be a "hub"? I say no and won't be. MCO at least is a logical point to connect to Latin America and DL doesn't have another hub South of ATL to cover that, but LAS provides nothing from a geography point of view when they are committed to LAX as a hub and as stated, the yields are crap. I think the strategy is more about not connecting. Using it for connecting would turn that on its ear.


MCO is a logical place for connections, except DL has largely avoided using it for connections

I think it is clear that DL wants to build LAS in a way that they can fly from most of the major West Coast markets to LAS. However, there is something interesting going on behind the scenes here:
Here is an excerpt from DL's piece on the announcement of the BOS-LAS flight: https://news.delta.com/delta-adds-50th- ... ting-oct-1

Headline: "Delta's broad service at Las Vegas"

"....Recent Delta service increases include an additional daily flight to San Diego that began in 2017 and Seattle beginning in July 2018 for improved intra-West connectivity. Las Vegas service provides Boston customers with a new and convenient gateway to top intra-west destinations such as San Jose and Orange County, California (SNA)"

Image
*Note this doesn't even include WS, AM, KL,VS, or KE flights

But through the map you can see that LAS is well suited for these connecting opportunities. Plus, LAS also allows 1 stop service to AMS, ICN, LHR, MAN, and other int'l destinations, from places like LGB.

Again, I don't believe a hub will happen by any stretch, but a connecting complex has certainly already been somewhat formed.

All in all, the DL network is becoming a very well oiled machine

You might be on to something, but I can tell you that the PR people that write those releases are pretty distant from Network Planning. It is not uncommon for such releases to go out without the network people even seeing it first. So that my just be blather from PR people rather than indication of a strategy. Hard to say.
Deltran757 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
enilria wrote:
But through the map you can see that LAS is well suited for these connecting opportunities. Plus, LAS also allows 1 stop service to AMS, ICN, LHR, MAN, and other int'l destinations, from places like LGB.

Again, I don't believe a hub will happen by any stretch, but a connecting complex has certainly already been somewhat formed.

All in all, the DL network is becoming a very well oiled machine


We have already started selling connection via LAS already. When booking or Rebooking. Its already a option for passengers. Thought it was weird. But now it makes sense. Ive noticed this after they announced LGB service. I wouldn’t be surprise if OAK or SMF isn't on the table for DL service in the future.

You can connect in BNA from MSP to CUN (or you could at one point), but that doesn't mean the purpose is to connect. Sometimes it just happens.
 
tphuang
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Re: OAG Changes 9/8/2019:DL Adds PDX-LAS,SEA-BZN, Shifts NRT to HND;SY Exits PVD;UA Ends CHA-IAD,EWR-DAY/YOW,EGE-IAD

Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:36 pm

Deltran757 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
enilria wrote:
But through the map you can see that LAS is well suited for these connecting opportunities. Plus, LAS also allows 1 stop service to AMS, ICN, LHR, MAN, and other int'l destinations, from places like LGB.

Again, I don't believe a hub will happen by any stretch, but a connecting complex has certainly already been somewhat formed.

All in all, the DL network is becoming a very well oiled machine


We have already started selling connection via LAS already. When booking or Rebooking. Its already a option for passengers. Thought it was weird. But now it makes sense. Ive noticed this after they announced LGB service. I wouldn’t be surprise if OAK or SMF isn't on the table for DL service in the future.

If that's the case, then DL's average fare numbers out of LAS to these secondary Cali airports are even worse than it looked to me originally when I assumed them to be all O&D. I really doubt the connection items really move the needle out of LAS.
 
Dominion301
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Re: OAG Changes 9/8/2019:DL Adds PDX-LAS,SEA-BZN, Shifts NRT to HND;SY Exits PVD;UA Ends CHA-IAD,EWR-DAY/YOW,EGE-IAD

Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:12 pm

GSP psgr wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
GSP psgr wrote:
Whoever does air service development for YOW should be fired. It's a 1.3 million population metro area. No ATL, no CLT, seasonal ORD, UAX now dropping EWR. Not exactly a terribly successful run of late.


ORD will be resuming 3x daily year-round. It’s beyond perplexing as to why UA suspended it in the first place. Could have just dropped EWR back in June (with AC still supporting 3x daily EWR) and left ORD as-is.

How much influence the YOW Airport Authority has over air service is tough to tell. However, ATL-YOW and CLT-YOW (and AA to ORD and WS to LAS, TPA and FLL) all used to exist, and on top of that, compared with the airports in YOW’s peer group, namely YHZ, YWG and YEG, the track record is less than stellar (I.e. all those airports’ air service developments have vastly outperformed YOW). On top of that, the latter three all have two ULCCs operating to them while YOW still has none.


UAX dropping YOW-ORD in it's entirety was indeed strange, almost like they expected AC to pick it up but they never did. One would have thought they would have dropped one frequency each from three different markets rather than ax YOW-ORD entirely. I do think that YOW's best peer comparison is YEG, which also only has UA to DEN and IAH, DL to MSP, and AS to SEA with no AA at all (YEG could literally not be located in a worse place vis a vis AA's hubs). That might actually be worse than what YOW gets. That said, I also think it is strange the UAX/AC JV dropped ORD-YEG entirely also (though as an oil market, one could argue IAH somewhat serves the same purpose), the fact that AA does not do ORD-YOW/YEG probably says something, although it is tough to tell with MAX shortages.


So I had a look and UA’s YOW-EWR ends 04MAR19, 2 days before YOW-ORD returns. AC and UA is one of the routes where UA/AC were blocked from employing their JV. I wonder if they’ll apply to change that?

YEG has a lot more transborder service than YOW does. Don’t AA still fly to PHX seasonally out of YEG?
 
N292UX
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Re: OAG Changes 9/8/2019:DL Adds PDX-LAS,SEA-BZN, Shifts NRT to HND;SY Exits PVD;UA Ends CHA-IAD,EWR-DAY/YOW,EGE-IAD

Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:38 pm

capitalflyer wrote:
enilria wrote:
*UA CHA-IAD DEC 1.6>0.2[1.6] JAN 1.8>0[1.7] FEB 2>0[1.9] MAR 2>0[2] APR 2>0[2] MAY 2>0[2] JUN 2>0[2]
UA CHA-ORD DEC 3>4[3] JAN 3>4[3] FEB 2>3[3] MAR 3>4[3] APR 3>4[3] MAY 3>4[1.9] JUN 3>4[1.9]
*UA DAY-EWR APR 1.0>0[1.0] MAY 1.0>0[1.0] JUN 1.0>0[1.0]
UA DAY-IAD APR 2>3[2.0] MAY 2>3[2] JUN 2>3[1.9]
*UA EGE-IAD DEC 0.4>0[0.4] JAN 0.3>0[0.3] MAR 0.8>0[0.8]


The CHA shuffle seems like part of continuing strategy shift to make IAD east coast hub. CHA is nearly equidistant between IAD and ORD. This will free up more connection shifts from EWR to IAD like...

DAY. Must not have had enough O&D for NYC to justify this route on its own.

Actually, a bit surprised we haven't seen more of these types of changes at a higher pace. Must be doing analysis and changing as they go as opposed to finishing analysis then making all the changes all at once. Probably easier that way. More a long term strategy than something that needs doing right away.

That's my assumption with some UAX EWR flights shifting to IAD. Looking at Wiki, it wouldn't blow me away if some EWR routes like CAK, GSO, MYR, and PNS get moved to IAD. Now that UA is adding more Florida-IAD routes, places like PNS, MLB, ECP, VPS, and EYW all seem somewhat possible to eventually be launched from IAD. ECP, VPS, and MLB both seem possible since AA does even fly them year-round from DCA yet, and it's probably UA's best bet at getting in that market at the moment. There's a few other NC/SC routes that UA could launch from IAD like EWN, TRI, and FLO to name a few.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: OAG Changes 9/8/2019:DL Adds PDX-LAS,SEA-BZN, Shifts NRT to HND;SY Exits PVD;UA Ends CHA-IAD,EWR-DAY/YOW,EGE-IAD

Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:51 pm

tphuang wrote:
Deltran757 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:


We have already started selling connection via LAS already. When booking or Rebooking. Its already a option for passengers. Thought it was weird. But now it makes sense. Ive noticed this after they announced LGB service. I wouldn’t be surprise if OAK or SMF isn't on the table for DL service in the future.

If that's the case, then DL's average fare numbers out of LAS to these secondary Cali airports are even worse than it looked to me originally when I assumed them to be all O&D. I really doubt the connection items really move the needle out of LAS.


Not for LAS. But places like LGB and SJC historically haven't sustained a very high level of service to points - even hubs - east of the Mississippi. So connections in LAS help a little bit with traffic flows like BOS-SJC that likely interest DL.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Cubsrule
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Re: OAG Changes 9/8/2019:DL Adds PDX-LAS,SEA-BZN, Shifts NRT to HND;SY Exits PVD;UA Ends CHA-IAD,EWR-DAY/YOW,EGE-IAD

Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:54 pm

N292UX wrote:
capitalflyer wrote:
enilria wrote:
*UA CHA-IAD DEC 1.6>0.2[1.6] JAN 1.8>0[1.7] FEB 2>0[1.9] MAR 2>0[2] APR 2>0[2] MAY 2>0[2] JUN 2>0[2]
UA CHA-ORD DEC 3>4[3] JAN 3>4[3] FEB 2>3[3] MAR 3>4[3] APR 3>4[3] MAY 3>4[1.9] JUN 3>4[1.9]
*UA DAY-EWR APR 1.0>0[1.0] MAY 1.0>0[1.0] JUN 1.0>0[1.0]
UA DAY-IAD APR 2>3[2.0] MAY 2>3[2] JUN 2>3[1.9]
*UA EGE-IAD DEC 0.4>0[0.4] JAN 0.3>0[0.3] MAR 0.8>0[0.8]


The CHA shuffle seems like part of continuing strategy shift to make IAD east coast hub. CHA is nearly equidistant between IAD and ORD. This will free up more connection shifts from EWR to IAD like...

DAY. Must not have had enough O&D for NYC to justify this route on its own.

Actually, a bit surprised we haven't seen more of these types of changes at a higher pace. Must be doing analysis and changing as they go as opposed to finishing analysis then making all the changes all at once. Probably easier that way. More a long term strategy than something that needs doing right away.

That's my assumption with some UAX EWR flights shifting to IAD. Looking at Wiki, it wouldn't blow me away if some EWR routes like CAK, GSO, MYR, and PNS get moved to IAD. Now that UA is adding more Florida-IAD routes, places like PNS, MLB, ECP, VPS, and EYW all seem somewhat possible to eventually be launched from IAD. ECP, VPS, and MLB both seem possible since AA does even fly them year-round from DCA yet, and it's probably UA's best bet at getting in that market at the moment. There's a few other NC/SC routes that UA could launch from IAD like EWN, TRI, and FLO to name a few.


It seems like UA would be wise to focus attention on bigger markets that lack DCA service. Most of these cities likely have a decent level of demand to WAS but virtually all of those passengers will prefer DCA.

Heck, I had a multi-day meeting in Herndon a few years ago where we flew to DCA and BWI, stayed in the District, and reverse commuted because the flight and hotel options were so much better that way.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: OAG Changes 9/8/2019:DL Adds PDX-LAS,SEA-BZN, Shifts NRT to HND;SY Exits PVD;UA Ends CHA-IAD,EWR-DAY/YOW,EGE-IAD

Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:28 pm

delta seems to like the focus city type service.

I don’t know how well it works...but they seem to want to be relevant in every large destination.

MCO RDU LAS AUS All come to mind

It is a throw back to pre hub and spoke and has been going on for a long time

For instance, they were always big in NYC with various O and D routes pre LGA hub and pre large JFK hub.
DL always got you to Florida, Vegas and the West Coast non stop when I was a kid...AA almost always involved a connection.
 
AirFiero
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Re: OAG Changes 9/8/2019:DL Adds PDX-LAS,SEA-BZN, Shifts NRT to HND;SY Exits PVD;UA Ends CHA-IAD,EWR-DAY/YOW,EGE-IAD

Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:32 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Deltran757 wrote:

We have already started selling connection via LAS already. When booking or Rebooking. Its already a option for passengers. Thought it was weird. But now it makes sense. Ive noticed this after they announced LGB service. I wouldn’t be surprise if OAK or SMF isn't on the table for DL service in the future.

If that's the case, then DL's average fare numbers out of LAS to these secondary Cali airports are even worse than it looked to me originally when I assumed them to be all O&D. I really doubt the connection items really move the needle out of LAS.


Not for LAS. But places like LGB and SJC historically haven't sustained a very high level of service to points - even hubs - east of the Mississippi. So connections in LAS help a little bit with traffic flows like BOS-SJC that likely interest DL.


Again, SJC has DL nonstop flights to SLC, MSP, DTW and ATL. What will LAS do for SJC that all those other hubs don’t?
 
ibthebigd
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Re: OAG Changes 9/8/2019:DL Adds PDX-LAS,SEA-BZN, Shifts NRT to HND;SY Exits PVD;UA Ends CHA-IAD,EWR-DAY/YOW,EGE-IAD

Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:05 pm

I wish DL would add IND-LAS

In the winter if I'm flying to SAN I would want to connect thru LAS because weather is more predictable that DL hub's

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 
Cubsrule
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Re: OAG Changes 9/8/2019:DL Adds PDX-LAS,SEA-BZN, Shifts NRT to HND;SY Exits PVD;UA Ends CHA-IAD,EWR-DAY/YOW,EGE-IAD

Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:51 pm

AirFiero wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
tphuang wrote:
If that's the case, then DL's average fare numbers out of LAS to these secondary Cali airports are even worse than it looked to me originally when I assumed them to be all O&D. I really doubt the connection items really move the needle out of LAS.


Not for LAS. But places like LGB and SJC historically haven't sustained a very high level of service to points - even hubs - east of the Mississippi. So connections in LAS help a little bit with traffic flows like BOS-SJC that likely interest DL.


Again, SJC has DL nonstop flights to SLC, MSP, DTW and ATL. What will LAS do for SJC that all those other hubs don’t?


Eastbound timing. There aren’t many (any?) departure options between lunchtime and the redeyes. A “bank” at LAS around 2000 or 2100 would have decent O&D both ways. Also keep in mind that SJC is probably the best-served airport in this category. LGB and OAK have many fewer options.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
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Re: OAG Changes 9/8/2019:DL Adds PDX-LAS,SEA-BZN, Shifts NRT to HND;SY Exits PVD;UA Ends CHA-IAD,EWR-DAY/YOW,EGE-IAD

Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:48 am

AirFiero wrote:
Well, crap. I would have bet that DL, having declared SJC a “focus city”, would start nonstops on SJC-BOS. Perhaps not. Now I wonder what this LAS connectivity for western markets can do what their HUB at SLC can’t??


Connect to their JV partners, KLM+Virgin Atlantic+Korean+WestJet+AeroMexico who have flights from LAS to multiple destinations

ibthebigd wrote:
I wish DL would add IND-LAS


Wouldn't surprise me at this point

AirFiero wrote:
Again, SJC has DL nonstop flights to SLC, MSP, DTW and ATL. What will LAS do for SJC that all those other hubs don’t?


Connect to DL's JV partners in LAS, serve SJC-LAS O&D, serve any Socal connections, etc

enilria wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
enilria wrote:


The question I saw posed was whether this is or will be a "hub"? I say no and won't be. MCO at least is a logical point to connect to Latin America and DL doesn't have another hub South of ATL to cover that, but LAS provides nothing from a geography point of view when they are committed to LAX as a hub and as stated, the yields are crap. I think the strategy is more about not connecting. Using it for connecting would turn that on its ear.


MCO is a logical place for connections, except DL has largely avoided using it for connections

I think it is clear that DL wants to build LAS in a way that they can fly from most of the major West Coast markets to LAS. However, there is something interesting going on behind the scenes here:
Here is an excerpt from DL's piece on the announcement of the BOS-LAS flight: https://news.delta.com/delta-adds-50th- ... ting-oct-1

Headline: "Delta's broad service at Las Vegas"

"....Recent Delta service increases include an additional daily flight to San Diego that began in 2017 and Seattle beginning in July 2018 for improved intra-West connectivity. Las Vegas service provides Boston customers with a new and convenient gateway to top intra-west destinations such as San Jose and Orange County, California (SNA)"

Image
*Note this doesn't even include WS, AM, KL,VS, or KE flights

But through the map you can see that LAS is well suited for these connecting opportunities. Plus, LAS also allows 1 stop service to AMS, ICN, LHR, MAN, and other int'l destinations, from places like LGB.

Again, I don't believe a hub will happen by any stretch, but a connecting complex has certainly already been somewhat formed.

All in all, the DL network is becoming a very well oiled machine

You might be on to something, but I can tell you that the PR people that write those releases are pretty distant from Network Planning. It is not uncommon for such releases to go out without the network people even seeing it first. So that my just be blather from PR people rather than indication of a strategy. Hard to say.


Would be very odd for DL PR people to allude to connections in LAS, when it isn't a published hub/focus city for Delta. There was a specific portion of the piece dedicated to how strong DL's presence in LAS is, and the intra-west connectivity it provides.

Deltran757 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
enilria wrote:
But through the map you can see that LAS is well suited for these connecting opportunities. Plus, LAS also allows 1 stop service to AMS, ICN, LHR, MAN, and other int'l destinations, from places like LGB.

Again, I don't believe a hub will happen by any stretch, but a connecting complex has certainly already been somewhat formed.

All in all, the DL network is becoming a very well oiled machine


We have already started selling connection via LAS already. When booking or Rebooking. Its already a option for passengers. Thought it was weird. But now it makes sense. Ive noticed this after they announced LGB service. I wouldn’t be surprise if OAK or SMF isn't on the table for DL service in the future.

You can connect in BNA from MSP to CUN (or you could at one point), but that doesn't mean the purpose is to connect. Sometimes it just happens.[/quote]

Although this seems slightly different, considering LAS is approaching a critical mass of p2p flights were connections will become more and more likely.
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AirFiero
Posts: 1355
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Re: OAG Changes 9/8/2019:DL Adds PDX-LAS,SEA-BZN, Shifts NRT to HND;SY Exits PVD;UA Ends CHA-IAD,EWR-DAY/YOW,EGE-IAD

Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:57 am

Midwestindy wrote:
AirFiero wrote:
Well, crap. I would have bet that DL, having declared SJC a “focus city”, would start nonstops on SJC-BOS. Perhaps not. Now I wonder what this LAS connectivity for western markets can do what their HUB at SLC can’t??


Connect to their JV partners, KLM+Virgin Atlantic+Korean+WestJet+AeroMexico who have flights from LAS to multiple destinations

ibthebigd wrote:
I wish DL would add IND-LAS


Wouldn't surprise me at this point

AirFiero wrote:
Again, SJC has DL nonstop flights to SLC, MSP, DTW and ATL. What will LAS do for SJC that all those other hubs don’t?


Connect to DL's JV partners in LAS, serve SJC-LAS O&D, serve any Socal connections, etc

enilria wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

MCO is a logical place for connections, except DL has largely avoided using it for connections

I think it is clear that DL wants to build LAS in a way that they can fly from most of the major West Coast markets to LAS. However, there is something interesting going on behind the scenes here:
Here is an excerpt from DL's piece on the announcement of the BOS-LAS flight: https://news.delta.com/delta-adds-50th- ... ting-oct-1

Headline: "Delta's broad service at Las Vegas"

"....Recent Delta service increases include an additional daily flight to San Diego that began in 2017 and Seattle beginning in July 2018 for improved intra-West connectivity. Las Vegas service provides Boston customers with a new and convenient gateway to top intra-west destinations such as San Jose and Orange County, California (SNA)"

Image
*Note this doesn't even include WS, AM, KL,VS, or KE flights

But through the map you can see that LAS is well suited for these connecting opportunities. Plus, LAS also allows 1 stop service to AMS, ICN, LHR, MAN, and other int'l destinations, from places like LGB.

Again, I don't believe a hub will happen by any stretch, but a connecting complex has certainly already been somewhat formed.

All in all, the DL network is becoming a very well oiled machine

You might be on to something, but I can tell you that the PR people that write those releases are pretty distant from Network Planning. It is not uncommon for such releases to go out without the network people even seeing it first. So that my just be blather from PR people rather than indication of a strategy. Hard to say.


Would be very odd for DL PR people to allude to connections in LAS, when it isn't a published hub/focus city for Delta. There was a specific portion of the piece dedicated to how strong DL's presence in LAS is, and the intra-west connectivity it provides.

Deltran757 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:


We have already started selling connection via LAS already. When booking or Rebooking. Its already a option for passengers. Thought it was weird. But now it makes sense. Ive noticed this after they announced LGB service. I wouldn’t be surprise if OAK or SMF isn't on the table for DL service in the future.

You can connect in BNA from MSP to CUN (or you could at one point), but that doesn't mean the purpose is to connect. Sometimes it just happens.


Although this seems slightly different, considering LAS is approaching a critical mass of p2p flights were connections will become more and more likely.[/quote]

Ok, good points, Midwest!

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