CX will end its 5th freedom route between YVR and JFK in April 2020.

Carrier says the route "has been losing money for a number of years.”

CX at moment plans to revise its JFK service by adding 4x additional weekly nonstops from HKG for a total of 25 weekly flights following the discontinuation.

Cathay Pacific will end its New York-Vancouver flights
https://thepointsguy.com/news/cathay-pa ... xt-spring/

=

5th freedom = vestige from a very different industry

Push is for ever more nonstops. 1-stops and 5th freedom don't make much sense in most cases anymore.

mercure1 wrote:

5th freedom = vestige from a very different industry

Push is for ever more nonstops. 1-stops and 5th freedom don't make much sense in most cases anymore.

Tell that to EK... DXB MXP JFK or DXB ATH EWR to name a couple?? Ahhah

mercure1 wrote:

5th freedom = vestige from a very different industry

Push is for ever more nonstops. 1-stops and 5th freedom don't make much sense in most cases anymore.

SQ seems to be enjoying LAX-NRT/SFO-HKG/IAH-MAN/JFK-FRA.

I think it just depends on the route.

AZa346 wrote:

mercure1 wrote:

5th freedom = vestige from a very different industry

Push is for ever more nonstops. 1-stops and 5th freedom don't make much sense in most cases anymore.

Tell that to EK... DXB MXP JFK or DXB ATH EWR to name a couple?? Ahhah

More to do with EK not being able to deploy assets elsewhere (too many planes) than anything else, given DXB hub is also maxed out. If anything, EK has already ended a few fifth freedoms (BKK-SYD-AKL, MEL-AKL, BNE-AKL and IIRC CMB-SIN)

LAXdude1023 wrote:

mercure1 wrote:

5th freedom = vestige from a very different industry

Push is for ever more nonstops. 1-stops and 5th freedom don't make much sense in most cases anymore.

SQ seems to be enjoying LAX-NRT/SFO-HKG/IAH-MAN/JFK-FRA.

I think it just depends on the route.

It really depends route-on-route, but SQ also ended a few fifth freedoms (ICN-LAX and BCN-GRU comes into mind).

QF though still enjoys fifth freedom on SIN-LHR and seems to be doing just fine after a number of years of losses.

Michael

Good thing I booked myself in J for February 2020. I've never tried biz before so thought it would be a good use of 25k AS miles.

MCGYVR wrote:

Good thing I booked myself in J for February 2020. I've never tried biz before so thought it would be a good use of 25k AS miles.

Omg, good idea.

This makes sense, and has been a long time coming. Since the YVR-JFK leg started, CX now has added three or four other non stops on HKG-NYC area, and there's more competition on the route. There used to only be one year-round AC A320/319 flight to EWR, now during the summer DL and UA have a daily flight each for a total of four non stops on the route. I think at one point PR also flew YVR-JFK.

I think this is the precursor to CX closing their expensive YVR base, now with no more fifth freedom tags they can just staff everyone from HKG who have lower salaries and significantly fewer benefits and labour protection.

Unfortunate thing for YVR though is that now it will lose first-class service on HKG, and CX will pull first out of the Canadian market completely.

mercure1 wrote:

5th freedom = vestige from a very different industry
Push is for ever more nonstops. 1-stops and 5th freedom don't make much sense in most cases anymore.

Industry trend is very much moving away from 5th freedom and milk run routes.
For U.S. carriers look at how they have almost entirely walked away from what once was a significant feature in their international networks.

LAXdude1023 wrote:

SQ seems to be enjoying LAX-NRT/SFO-HKG/IAH-MAN/JFK-FRA.

Per CEO interview a couple years ago they said their goal was to offer all nonstops from SIN. Things like the A350ULR to the U.S. and reshaping their European network in favor of more nonstops goes towards this goal. I think its only a matter of time before more 5h freedom is cut at SQ.

ACCS300 wrote:

Likely partially due to the current problems in HK resulting a 40% drop in tourism among other things. This was a nice red-eye for YVR travellers as it arrived early in NYC allowing for a full day of business or pleasure, coupled with great Cathay service and a premium experience overall.

The source clearly states the two situations are unrelated. They are increasing non stop to JFK by 4x weekly. If the demand was weaker, they wouldn’t have done that.

The route lost money cause they wouldn't go through US Preclearance in YVR. Why would pax from Vancouver want to fly a route where they have to do customs at JFK instead while there is a perfectly fine preclearance facility at YVR.

Also does this mean that UA and DL will make their YVR-EWR/JFK flights year round due to the depart of CX?

I'd love to see AC add a red eye out of YVR to EWR to complement their existing daytime service.

What I suspect might happen though is WS will get in on the action (barring DL's going in year round,) and make it work to meet DL flights at JFK.

YYZORD wrote:

The route lost money cause they wouldn't go through US Preclearance in YVR. Why would pax from Vancouver want to fly a route where they have to do customs at JFK instead while there is a perfectly fine preclearance facility at YVR.

Because it was basically the first flight of the day into JFK and clearing customs was a breeze.

LAXintl wrote:

mercure1 wrote:

5th freedom = vestige from a very different industry
Push is for ever more nonstops. 1-stops and 5th freedom don't make much sense in most cases anymore.

Industry trend is very much moving away from 5th freedom and milk run routes.
For U.S. carriers look at how they have almost entirely walked away from what once was a significant feature in their international networks.

LAXdude1023 wrote:

SQ seems to be enjoying LAX-NRT/SFO-HKG/IAH-MAN/JFK-FRA.

Per CEO interview a couple years ago they said their goal was to offer all nonstops from SIN. Things like the A350ULR to the U.S. and reshaping their European network in favor of more nonstops goes towards this goal. I think its only a matter of time before more 5h freedom is cut at SQ.

Increments of long haul capacity for a route the length of JFK-HKG are smaller than they used to be. At a time only a 744 would do it; then 345s or 777ERs.

5th freedom routes make sense where:

1. You don't have a small enough increment of capacity between origin and destination so you wind up using smaller aircraft that lack the range or add intermediate stops to fill the plane.

or 2. You're trying to skirt bilateral frequency restrictions.

LAXintl wrote:

mercure1 wrote:

5th freedom = vestige from a very different industry
Push is for ever more nonstops. 1-stops and 5th freedom don't make much sense in most cases anymore.

Industry trend is very much moving away from 5th freedom and milk run routes.
For U.S. carriers look at how they have almost entirely walked away from what once was a significant feature in their international networks.

LAXdude1023 wrote:

SQ seems to be enjoying LAX-NRT/SFO-HKG/IAH-MAN/JFK-FRA.

Per CEO interview a couple years ago they said their goal was to offer all nonstops from SIN. Things like the A350ULR to the U.S. and reshaping their European network in favor of more nonstops goes towards this goal. I think its only a matter of time before more 5h freedom is cut at SQ.

I can’t imagine them going IAH-SIN nonstop. They get too much on IAH-MAN relative to the routes performance as a whole. Maybe getting rid of the FRA stop makes sense though.

Why did they bother keeping it so long?

eamondzhang wrote:

AZa346 wrote:

mercure1 wrote:

5th freedom = vestige from a very different industry

Push is for ever more nonstops. 1-stops and 5th freedom don't make much sense in most cases anymore.

Tell that to EK... DXB MXP JFK or DXB ATH EWR to name a couple?? Ahhah

More to do with EK not being able to deploy assets elsewhere (too many planes) than anything else, given DXB hub is also maxed out. If anything, EK has already ended a few fifth freedoms (BKK-SYD-AKL, MEL-AKL, BNE-AKL and IIRC CMB-SIN)

LAXdude1023 wrote:

mercure1 wrote:

5th freedom = vestige from a very different industry

Push is for ever more nonstops. 1-stops and 5th freedom don't make much sense in most cases anymore.

SQ seems to be enjoying LAX-NRT/SFO-HKG/IAH-MAN/JFK-FRA.

I think it just depends on the route.

It really depends route-on-route, but SQ also ended a few fifth freedoms (ICN-LAX and BCN-GRU comes into mind).

QF though still enjoys fifth freedom on SIN-LHR and seems to be doing just fine after a number of years of losses.

Michael

BNE-AKL is still flying. I flew SIN-BNE-AKL on their 777-300ER just a couple months ago.

Interesting. I’ve always read/heard from numerous channels (especially from multiple posters here) that the route did very well considering it was the only daily nonstop on JFK-YVR.

USAirALB wrote:

Interesting. I’ve always read/heard from numerous channels (especially from multiple posters here) that the route did very well considering it was the only daily nonstop on JFK-YVR.

Me too. Funny how these thing change.

Do they use the same crew from HKG to JFK or was there a swap at YVR? silly question I know but I don't know much about LH crew scheduling. Always thought these flights had a crew that made a stop at YVR, the proceed to JFK for a layover and then start all over. Probably can't do much more than 2 maybe 3 flights per month this way.

patrickjp93 wrote:

BNE-AKL is still flying. I flew SIN-BNE-AKL on their 777-300ER just a couple months ago.

I guarantee you it's not flying anymore, and it's not since 25MAR18. It was also an A380 flight as opposed to 777-300ER that you claimed. My guess is you flew on someone else (e.g. EK to NZ), you have remembered a wrong date, or you flew on EK's DPS-AKL and connect from soneone else.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... s-in-ns18/

AtomicGarden wrote:

Do they use the same crew from HKG to JFK or was there a swap at YVR? silly question I know but I don't know much about LH crew scheduling. Always thought these flights had a crew that made a stop at YVR, the proceed to JFK for a layover and then start all over. Probably can't do much more than 2 maybe 3 flights per month this way.

Think they used to have a YVR crew base that does the flight to JFK and HKG. Not sure if that still is the case. But they definitely made a crew swap in YVR.

Michael

Cathay Pacific is always free to ditch the moral corruptions of oneworld, join its big brother Air China in Star Alliance, and codeshare on AC/UA USA-YVR flights to feed YVR-HKG.

patrickjp93 wrote:

eamondzhang wrote:

AZa346 wrote:

Tell that to EK... DXB MXP JFK or DXB ATH EWR to name a couple?? Ahhah

More to do with EK not being able to deploy assets elsewhere (too many planes) than anything else, given DXB hub is also maxed out. If anything, EK has already ended a few fifth freedoms (BKK-SYD-AKL, MEL-AKL, BNE-AKL and IIRC CMB-SIN)

LAXdude1023 wrote:

SQ seems to be enjoying LAX-NRT/SFO-HKG/IAH-MAN/JFK-FRA.

I think it just depends on the route.

It really depends route-on-route, but SQ also ended a few fifth freedoms (ICN-LAX and BCN-GRU comes into mind).

QF though still enjoys fifth freedom on SIN-LHR and seems to be doing just fine after a number of years of losses.

Michael

BNE-AKL is still flying. I flew SIN-BNE-AKL on their 777-300ER just a couple months ago.

No it's not?!? They haven't operated BNE-AKL for over 12 months now.

I can't remember exactly when EK last operated DXB-SIN-BNE-AKL on a 777, but it would have been around 2009.

avek00 wrote:

Cathay Pacific is always free to ditch the moral corruptions of oneworld, join its big brother Air China in Star Alliance, and codeshare on AC/UA USA-YVR flights to feed YVR-HKG.

And the justification for this statement is?

USAirALB wrote:

Interesting. I’ve always read/heard from numerous channels (especially from multiple posters here) that the route did very well considering it was the only daily nonstop on JFK-YVR.

I guess it goes to show that without the actual “numbers” people on here, (including myself) have absolutely no idea how well a route does.

While CX may have had the only daily YVR to JFK, they did not have the only daily YVR to NYC. AC has flown a daily YVR to EWR for quite some time and has used a daily 787 for a couple years now. With “normal” daytime arr/dep times, they always had an edge on CX whose late night schedule timings did not work well for O&D traffic.

eamondzhang wrote:

AtomicGarden wrote:

Do they use the same crew from HKG to JFK or was there a swap at YVR? silly question I know but I don't know much about LH crew scheduling. Always thought these flights had a crew that made a stop at YVR, the proceed to JFK for a layover and then start all over. Probably can't do much more than 2 maybe 3 flights per month this way.

Think they used to have a YVR crew base that does the flight to JFK and HKG. Not sure if that still is the case. But they definitely made a crew swap in YVR.

Michael

Much appreciated. Glad I wasn't so far off with my assumption. Probably an added cost that made the route more difficult for CX.

Why is there such little service between the two cities?

It is bizarre

There is def an opening for B6 should they choose to enter the Canadian market

jfklganyc wrote:

Why is there such little service between the two cities?

It is bizarre

There is def an opening for B6 should they choose to enter the Canadian market

Because from the American side YVR is an extremely seasonal market. That’s why service spikes in the summer months. There is a business component of course but ACs flight between the two should cover that. If not, WS is probably the best candidate.

jfklganyc wrote:

Why is there such little service between the two cities?

It is bizarre

There is def an opening for B6 should they choose to enter the Canadian market

While I don’t know if any of these are the answers:

1) US/Canada travel in general usually is stronger from the Canadian POS
2) YVR-US traffic is typically stronger towards the US West Coast
3) US-YVR traffic is heavily seasonal and aimed at connecting Americans with cruise ships bound for Alaska

LAXdude1023 wrote:

There is a business component of course but ACs flight between the two should cover that. If not, WS is probably the best candidate.

Westjet had better hurry.

I would not be surprised to see AC start a second daily rotation with CX pulling out. A (pre cleared) red eye YVR to EWR but leading to an early morning departure out of EWR back to YVR.

eamondzhang wrote:

patrickjp93 wrote:

BNE-AKL is still flying. I flew SIN-BNE-AKL on their 777-300ER just a couple months ago.

I guarantee you it's not flying anymore, and it's not since 25MAR18. It was also an A380 flight as opposed to 777-300ER that you claimed. My guess is you flew on someone else (e.g. EK to NZ), you have remembered a wrong date, or you flew on EK's DPS-AKL and connect from soneone else.

Michael

Nope. EK432/3/4. Still have the ticket actually.

RyanairGuru wrote:

patrickjp93 wrote:

BNE-AKL is still flying. I flew SIN-BNE-AKL on their 777-300ER just a couple months ago.

No it's not?!? They haven't operated BNE-AKL for over 12 months now.

I can't remember exactly when EK last operated DXB-SIN-BNE-AKL on a 777, but it would have been around 2009.

EK432/3/4, still have the tickets July 11 2019.

Can't DL make their seasonal JFK-YVR flight year round and WS put their codeshare on that flight? They made ATL-YVR year round so idk why they can't do the same for JFK.

longhauler wrote:

LAXdude1023 wrote:

There is a business component of course but ACs flight between the two should cover that. If not, WS is probably the best candidate.

Westjet had better hurry.

I would not be surprised to see AC start a second daily rotation with CX pulling out. A (pre cleared) red eye YVR to EWR but leading to an early morning departure out of EWR back to YVR.

ST165 wrote:

This makes sense, and has been a long time coming. Since the YVR-JFK leg started, CX now has added three or four other non stops on HKG-NYC area, and there's more competition on the route. There used to only be one year-round AC A320/319 flight to EWR, now during the summer DL and UA have a daily flight each for a total of four non stops on the route. I think at one point PR also flew YVR-JFK.

I think this is the precursor to CX closing their expensive YVR base, now with no more fifth freedom tags they can just staff everyone from HKG who have lower salaries and significantly fewer benefits and labour protection.

Unfortunate thing for YVR though is that now it will lose first-class service on HKG, and CX will pull first out of the Canadian market completely.

PR flew YVR-JFK because they didn't have anything that could fly JFK-MNL nonstop without restriction. Now with a 280t A359, PR could fly that route nonstop...and daily, no longer needing a YVR stop (service to YVR is now 100 percent terminator). As for AC, they answered CX by upgrading that A319 YVR-EWR flight to a B788 (and now a B789)...because of the international J seats at the front. Also, that return flight times in very well with flights to Asia and Australia (although the reverse is not always the case).

If AC starts a second daily flight, I'd expect that on a 737 MAX 8.

patrickjp93 wrote:

eamondzhang wrote:

patrickjp93 wrote:

BNE-AKL is still flying. I flew SIN-BNE-AKL on their 777-300ER just a couple months ago.

I guarantee you it's not flying anymore, and it's not since 25MAR18. It was also an A380 flight as opposed to 777-300ER that you claimed. My guess is you flew on someone else (e.g. EK to NZ), you have remembered a wrong date, or you flew on EK's DPS-AKL and connect from soneone else.

Michael

Nope. EK432/3/4. Still have the ticket actually.

If you ever try emirates.com, EK is only selling QF flights for BNE-AKL, not only 11 July but any dates afterwards as well.

Also, if you check FR24, EK432/3 flies DXB-SIN-BNE ONLY: https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/ek433 and https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/ek432

And EK434 doesn't even touch AKL: https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/ek434

As Ryanairguru mentioned, it must be some 10 years since EK flew BNE-AKL on 77W as this is one of the early EK routes that got swapped to A380.

Michael

If it has been losing money for years, which apparently it has, it is a head scratcher as to why they were still operating it. They have 3 x daily 77W service nonstop between JFK and HKG and 1 x daily A350 from EWR to HKG so the 1 stop flight via YVR made no sense. The additional frequencies between JFK and HKG (nonstop) being added are to be flown on the A350.

CX have very good service but the cabin interiors and design are dated and in need of a facelift, particularly on the 77W. The interior color scheme looks like something from 1996.

Cointrin330 wrote:

If it has been losing money for years, which apparently it has, it is a head scratcher as to why they were still operating it. They have 3 x daily 77W service nonstop between JFK and HKG and 1 x daily A350 from EWR to HKG so the 1 stop flight via YVR made no sense. The additional frequencies between JFK and HKG (nonstop) being added are to be flown on the A350.

Speculating here, but didn't the YVR stop aid in the cargo uplift? I'd figure a 77W either direction on HKG-JFK would be MTOW limited before it was ever ZFW limited. Declining cargo yields might have been a factor.

I'm a regular on this route and the loads have always been horrific. It's not unusual for Y and J to be 20-30% full. F is hit or miss and 100% mileage redemption.

I'm not too surprised. It's a tough route to make work. I suspect most of the business traffic will be on AC, and I doubt there's an overwhelming amount between those two cities. YVR's American business ties are way stronger with the west coast. For leisure traffic, there's must so much competition, both with the AC non-stop and innumerable one-stop options via both Canada and the U.S. If you fly via YYZ or YUL, there's an option every hour and you can arrive at LGA, which is much more convenient than JFK. You can clear customs both ways as you connect. It's very different from a route like SQ on LAX-NRT, where there are relatively few competitors (a few other nonstops and no good one-stop options).

YYZLGA wrote:

I'm not too surprised. It's a tough route to make work. I suspect most of the business traffic will be on AC, and I doubt there's an overwhelming amount between those two cities. YVR's American business ties are way stronger with the west coast. For leisure traffic, there's must so much competition, both with the AC non-stops and innumerable one-stop options via both Canada and the U.S. If you fly via YYZ or YUL, there's an option every hour and you can arrive at LGA, which is much more convenient than JFK. You can clear customs both ways as you connect.

LGA is still a 3rd world airport though...

Honestly when QF 15 is full, AC35 and the CX flight out of YVR is good enough. Getting into NYC proper from EWR is a nightmare now.

patrickjp93 wrote:

YYZLGA wrote:

I'm not too surprised. It's a tough route to make work. I suspect most of the business traffic will be on AC, and I doubt there's an overwhelming amount between those two cities. YVR's American business ties are way stronger with the west coast. For leisure traffic, there's must so much competition, both with the AC non-stops and innumerable one-stop options via both Canada and the U.S. If you fly via YYZ or YUL, there's an option every hour and you can arrive at LGA, which is much more convenient than JFK. You can clear customs both ways as you connect.

LGA is still a 3rd world airport though...

Honestly when QF 15 is full, AC35 and the CX flight out of YVR is good enough. Getting into NYC proper from EWR is a nightmare now.

It's New York. All the airports are terrible. And I think that's pretty unfair to the third world. Most of their airports are way better than the NYC airports.

YYZLGA wrote:

patrickjp93 wrote:

YYZLGA wrote:

I'm not too surprised. It's a tough route to make work. I suspect most of the business traffic will be on AC, and I doubt there's an overwhelming amount between those two cities. YVR's American business ties are way stronger with the west coast. For leisure traffic, there's must so much competition, both with the AC non-stops and innumerable one-stop options via both Canada and the U.S. If you fly via YYZ or YUL, there's an option every hour and you can arrive at LGA, which is much more convenient than JFK. You can clear customs both ways as you connect.

LGA is still a 3rd world airport though...

Honestly when QF 15 is full, AC35 and the CX flight out of YVR is good enough. Getting into NYC proper from EWR is a nightmare now.

It's New York. All the airports are terrible. And I think that's pretty unfair to the third world. Most of their airports are way better than the NYC airports.

Newark is great if you're trying to get into NJ. Straight shot onto the highway, pretty fast baggage claim. Getting into NYC from it though is awful. But no, LGA is literally a rat-infested garbage heap.

patrickjp93 wrote:

YYZLGA wrote:

patrickjp93 wrote:

LGA is still a 3rd world airport though...

Honestly when QF 15 is full, AC35 and the CX flight out of YVR is good enough. Getting into NYC proper from EWR is a nightmare now.

It's New York. All the airports are terrible. And I think that's pretty unfair to the third world. Most of their airports are way better than the NYC airports.

Newark is great if you're trying to get into NJ. Straight shot onto the highway, pretty fast baggage claim. Getting into NYC from it though is awful. But no, LGA is literally a rat-infested garbage heap.

You're right, of course. I doubt there's all that much YVR-Jersey traffic, though, and Terminal A at Newark is also pretty badly outdated. The security lines if you don't have Precheck can be horrible. Also remember that AC flies into the new concourse at LGA, which is actually pretty pleasant.

YYZLGA wrote:

patrickjp93 wrote:

YYZLGA wrote:

It's New York. All the airports are terrible. And I think that's pretty unfair to the third world. Most of their airports are way better than the NYC airports.

Newark is great if you're trying to get into NJ. Straight shot onto the highway, pretty fast baggage claim. Getting into NYC from it though is awful. But no, LGA is literally a rat-infested garbage heap.

You're right, of course. I doubt there's all that much YVR-Jersey traffic, though, and Terminal A at Newark is also pretty badly outdated. The security lines if you don't have Precheck can be horrible. Also remember that AC flies into the new concourse at LGA, which is actually pretty pleasant.

Well, there's me being the NJ native, but yeah, those days are coming to a close. Too bad there are not YVR-CLT flights... Anyway, tragic loss for YVR-NYC travelers. CX is a much better flight. It's the trip planning that's impossible, and expensive, if you're transitioning from QF or something else.

ST165 wrote:

Unfortunate thing for YVR though is that now it will lose first-class service on HKG, and CX will pull first out of the Canadian market completely.

Doesn't CX fly to YYZ up to 2x daily and also have 2x daily HKG-YVR apart from CX888/865?

It's surprising to me that YYC can handle a daily JFK flight and YVR can't year round? WS is pretty much DL and I think DL has the perfect opportunity to make YVR-JFK year round if WS has YYC-JFK year round after the WS/DL JV is approved!

A YVR to USA pre-cleared red-eye is not possible for anyone unfortunately as I believe US Customs and hence pre clearance closes at or just before 2100.

Thenoflyzone wrote:

ACCS300 wrote:

Likely partially due to the current problems in HK resulting a 40% drop in tourism among other things. This was a nice red-eye for YVR travellers as it arrived early in NYC allowing for a full day of business or pleasure, coupled with great Cathay service and a premium experience overall.

The source clearly states the two situations are unrelated. They are increasing non stop to JFK by 4x weekly. If the demand was weaker, they wouldn’t have done that.

and CX mentioned that the sector has been losing money for years.....
NYC's demand is strong enough to have additional flights,
it will also allow CX to open up a new CANADA-USA flight after the change if they wanted.
(HK carrier has right to operate 5th freedom flight to one USA city from Canada)