BA
Topic Author
Posts: 10472
Joined: Fri May 19, 2000 11:06 am

Long runway hold times at PAE caused by SEA traffic?

Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:32 am

Since commercial flights from PAE began in March, I've flown out of there five times (2x to LAX, 3x to DEN). All flights had hold times at the runway hold line ranging from 5 to 10 minutes, and in that time, there were no departures or arrivals on the runway.

In my experience at low traffic airports, hold times often are non-existent with the pilots frequently being given clearance for take off while still taxiing.

Only thing I could thing of in PAE's case, is possibly interference from Sea-Tac departures/arrivals. Anyone with experience know if this is the case or otherwise?

On the otherhand, flying into PAE has always been without any delay, unlike Sea-Tac where you'll often be put into at least a brief holding pattern.
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flying_727
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Re: Long runway hold times at PAE caused by SEA traffic?

Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:40 am

I crew many flights to/from ATL, and we often experience "hold times at the runway" at so-called low traffic airports. They are usually flow times to ATL, and have nothing to do with the departure airport. We try to coordinate with ATC on arrival our departure time. We always try to block out on time, but if ATC cannot secure a release time soon after our block out, we sit near the departure runway until our release time.

For LAX this seems logical, for DEN I do not know.
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SoCalPilot
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Re: Long runway hold times at PAE caused by SEA traffic?

Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:04 am

Waiting 5 to 10 minutes for an IFR departure to be released is completely normal and happens at satellite airports all across the US.
 
Karlsands
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Re: Long runway hold times at PAE caused by SEA traffic?

Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:20 am

Maybe a busy pattern as well
 
BA
Topic Author
Posts: 10472
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Re: Long runway hold times at PAE caused by SEA traffic?

Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:20 am

flying_727 wrote:
I crew many flights to/from ATL, and we often experience "hold times at the runway" at so-called low traffic airports. They are usually flow times to ATL, and have nothing to do with the departure airport. We try to coordinate with ATC on arrival our departure time. We always try to block out on time, but if ATC cannot secure a release time soon after our block out, we sit near the departure runway until our release time.

For LAX this seems logical, for DEN I do not know.


Thanks. I didn't think of this.

I imagine this is intentionally done only at low-traffic airports where it's less disruptive. I can't imagine this being done at a busy airport.

For example, today I flew out of DEN and there were 12 planes in front of us lined up waiting to take off from runway 8. The queue moved fairly quickly, with planes taking off right after another. It would be crippling if each of those planes held for 5 to 10 minutes. Would have meant a roughly 2 hour queue.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
Antarius
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Re: Long runway hold times at PAE caused by SEA traffic?

Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:25 am

BA wrote:
flying_727 wrote:
I crew many flights to/from ATL, and we often experience "hold times at the runway" at so-called low traffic airports. They are usually flow times to ATL, and have nothing to do with the departure airport. We try to coordinate with ATC on arrival our departure time. We always try to block out on time, but if ATC cannot secure a release time soon after our block out, we sit near the departure runway until our release time.

For LAX this seems logical, for DEN I do not know.


Thanks. I didn't think of this.

I imagine this is intentionally done only at low-traffic airports where it's less disruptive. I can't imagine this being done at a busy airport.

For example, today I flew out of DEN and there were 12 planes in front of us lined up waiting to take off from runway 8. The queue moved fairly quickly, with planes taking off right after another. It would be crippling if each of those planes held for 5 to 10 minutes. Would have meant a roughly 2 hour queue.


True, but those planes in the queue each likely waited more than 5-10 mins as part of the queue too. So a few min delay elsewhere to fit them in is neither uncharacteristic or additionally delaying than a major airport.

But yes, to your point, the smaller airport wait seems to be for "nothing", while at a larger one, you're slowly taxiing behind someone else.
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Karlsands
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Re: Long runway hold times at PAE caused by SEA traffic?

Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:01 am

Lets also remember this air field has Boeing and a few other aircraft testing companies on location, this could add into delays with such traffic , and also abnormal maneuvers , ex: high speed taxi tests etc
 
32andBelow
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Re: Long runway hold times at PAE caused by SEA traffic?

Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:07 am

Could be call for release by TMU at Seattle center.
 
SPREE34
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Re: Long runway hold times at PAE caused by SEA traffic?

Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:00 pm

PAE is stuck between the NW and NE arrival routes into SEA, adding the short distance straight South into SEA airspace, it requires considerable ATC coordination prior to releasing.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
tcfc424
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Re: Long runway hold times at PAE caused by SEA traffic?

Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:25 pm

I would put in a scientific wild guess that the delay is caused by the decreased taxi time at PAE, due to little to no congestion. Most airports feature taxi times between 5-10 minutes at a minimum, allowing for the release to come through while on the way to the runway for departure, whereas at PAE you leave the ramp and you're at the runway. Similar airports probably feature a brief hold after pushback and before taxiing to allow for the release to come through.
 
alasizon
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Re: Long runway hold times at PAE caused by SEA traffic?

Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:37 pm

tcfc424 wrote:
I would put in a scientific wild guess that the delay is caused by the decreased taxi time at PAE, due to little to no congestion. Most airports feature taxi times between 5-10 minutes at a minimum, allowing for the release to come through while on the way to the runway for departure, whereas at PAE you leave the ramp and you're at the runway. Similar airports probably feature a brief hold after pushback and before taxiing to allow for the release to come through.


Most small and medium airports don't feature any sort of hold prior to taxi, as part of each airline's scheduled block will include any routinely planned/estimated hold for departure.

Another piece is dependent upon how everyone handles their pre-takeoff/pre-departure checklists. At larger airports, these are done almost entirely while taxiing versus at some smaller airports where it is known you will likely have flow control or an EDCT, that isn't the case.

Antarius wrote:
BA wrote:
Thanks. I didn't think of this.

I imagine this is intentionally done only at low-traffic airports where it's less disruptive. I can't imagine this being done at a busy airport.

For example, today I flew out of DEN and there were 12 planes in front of us lined up waiting to take off from runway 8. The queue moved fairly quickly, with planes taking off right after another. It would be crippling if each of those planes held for 5 to 10 minutes. Would have meant a roughly 2 hour queue.


True, but those planes in the queue each likely waited more than 5-10 mins as part of the queue too. So a few min delay elsewhere to fit them in is neither uncharacteristic or additionally delaying than a major airport.

But yes, to your point, the smaller airport wait seems to be for "nothing", while at a larger one, you're slowly taxiing behind someone else.


Another piece to is that flow control is typically into the larger airports/ATC areas, so flying PAE-LAX is going to face more hold time than LAX-BOI because BOI doesn't have the same issue slotting flights into the approach routes as LAX does.
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77H
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Re: Long runway hold times at PAE caused by SEA traffic?

Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:51 pm

tcfc424 wrote:
I would put in a scientific wild guess that the delay is caused by the decreased taxi time at PAE, due to little to no congestion. Most airports feature taxi times between 5-10 minutes at a minimum, allowing for the release to come through while on the way to the runway for departure, whereas at PAE you leave the ramp and you're at the runway. Similar airports probably feature a brief hold after pushback and before taxiing to allow for the release to come through.


OGG is very similar. I’ve been on longer haul flights out of there where taxiing to the runway was for fast we had to wait for dispatch to update final weight and balance info.

77H
 
bigb
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Re: Long runway hold times at PAE caused by SEA traffic?

Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:09 pm

Most likely flow time, this is common going into major hubs. Get them often going into in CLT where ATC at the outstation will either have us contact ground prior to push for release time or want us to give them a estimated wheels up time.
 
32andBelow
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Re: Long runway hold times at PAE caused by SEA traffic?

Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:28 am

tcfc424 wrote:
I would put in a scientific wild guess that the delay is caused by the decreased taxi time at PAE, due to little to no congestion. Most airports feature taxi times between 5-10 minutes at a minimum, allowing for the release to come through while on the way to the runway for departure, whereas at PAE you leave the ramp and you're at the runway. Similar airports probably feature a brief hold after pushback and before taxiing to allow for the release to come through.

That’s not how it works. Tower gives them their clearance when they are still at the gate. Then center gives tower the release. Tower calls center when the plane is ready to depart and center will release them. Or in this case maybe Seattle approach.
 
Jshank83
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Re: Long runway hold times at PAE caused by SEA traffic?

Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:33 am

STL gets a lot of holds going to ORD. I've been told airlines/airports usually hold the closer airports because they can fit them in/move them around easier than say a RNO-ORD flight that is already in the air.
 
alasizon
Posts: 1910
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Re: Long runway hold times at PAE caused by SEA traffic?

Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:36 am

Jshank83 wrote:
STL gets a lot of holds going to ORD. I've been told airlines/airports usually hold the closer airports because they can fit them in/move them around easier than say a RNO-ORD flight that is already in the air.


It is easier to give a plane already en-route but farther out a small detour for separation; it is far more difficult to give a closer-in aircraft a reroute for separation so closer in flights are held on the ground.
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jbmitt
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Re: Long runway hold times at PAE caused by SEA traffic?

Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:31 am

Denver is frequently on a ground delay program.

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