Convair CV-440 Freighter Crash at TOL

tys777 · Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:19 am

There are reports of a cargo plane crash a little while ago at KTOL.

https://www.13abc.com/content/news/Carg ... 11491.html

Looks like it could be this 727.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/IJW ... /KAFW/KTOL

If so, that is interjet west. Adhoc auto part supply flights.

airkas1 · Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:25 am

FR24 has it on approach to KTOL around 06:10 UTC, N209TR.

sandyb123 · Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:30 am

airkas1 wrote:
FR24 has it on approach to KTOL around 06:10 UTC, N209TR.

Although it also appears to have taxied to the ramp, or is that presumptive automation on FR24's part?

Sandyb123

716131 · Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:33 am

Did it crashed into an hangar?

airkas1 · Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:39 am

I can't open this link (access denied): https://www.wtol.com/article/news/local ... 700e35319e

But the short SEO text for that link says:
"Crews are on the scene of a plane crash near Toledo Express Airport Wednesday morning. The Lucas County Sheriff's Office says the plane crashed on Garden Road east of the airport. Police say several things are on fire and they believe the plane may have crashed into a parked semi."

EDIT:
That's in the extended area of the runway it was on approach to and across a highway. There seems to be a truck repair/towing company there as well, so the parked semi makes sense too.

MaksFly · Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:45 am

Live coverage.. https://www.wtol.com/live-video

airkas1 · Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:46 am

MaksFly wrote:
Live coverage.. https://www.wtol.com/live-video

Still access denied for me. Any chance you could give a quick description?

Redd · Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:51 am

airkas1 wrote:
MaksFly wrote:
Live coverage.. https://www.wtol.com/live-video

Still access denied for me. Any chance you could give a quick description?

Doesn't look good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4vC2lgkLAg

MaksFly · Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:52 am

airkas1 wrote:
MaksFly wrote:
Live coverage.. https://www.wtol.com/live-video

Still access denied for me. Any chance you could give a quick description?

Press conference in about an hour.

Plane came from an airport in Memphis area.

Crashed into what seems to be a truck stock or repair place.

Believe to have carried car parts.

intrance · Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:59 am

airkas1 wrote:
MaksFly wrote:
Live coverage.. https://www.wtol.com/live-video

Still access denied for me. Any chance you could give a quick description?

Try a US VPN if you have access to one, should solve the "Access Denied" issue if you are not located in the US.

MaksFly · Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:02 am

Happened around 3 AM, again said the plane coming from small airport in memphis. No fire hydrants nearby so they are calling folks in.

Press conference soon.

MaksFly · Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:04 am

This seems to be where...
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Bubba ... CnoECA4QCA

MaksFly · Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:05 am

Looks like right on approach, shortly before the landing strip by the highway. wow.

airkas1 · Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:07 am

MaksFly wrote:
Looks like right on approach, shortly before the landing strip by the highway. wow.

Except that according to FR24 the aircraft landed on runway 07 (which is from the other side).

MaksFly · Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:09 am

airkas1 wrote:
MaksFly wrote:
Looks like right on approach, shortly before the landing strip by the highway. wow.

Except that according to FR24 the aircraft landed on runway 07 (which is from the other side).

Bad data?

Failed go around?

Different plane?

MaksFly · Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:11 am

As per Flightaware...
N24DR CVLP Millington-Memphis (KNQA) 11:14p CDT 02:42a EDT
https://flightaware.com/live/airport/KTOL

Coming from Memphis... landing around 2:42.

MaksFly · Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:15 am

Yep... makes sense.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/n24dr Unknown status...
and flightaware shows landing from the other side. on 25.

KLMatSJC · Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:16 am

MaksFly wrote:
As per Flightaware...
N24DR CVLP Millington-Memphis (KNQA) 11:14p CDT 02:42a EDT
https://flightaware.com/live/airport/KTOL

Coming from Memphis... landing around 2:42.

The news link shows wreckage that matches the color scheme of this bird.

OA940 · Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:17 am

Any news on survivors? Doesn't look too good...

MaksFly · Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:18 am

OA940 wrote:
Any news on survivors? Doesn't look too good...

Apparently an update shortly. Prayers for families and those involved.

airkas1 · Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:20 am

ASN has an entry now for this crash: https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20190911-0

MaksFly · Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:33 am

Believed to be a crew of 2 as per manifest.

MaksFly · Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:50 am

as per reports, no mayday, no distress calls apparently.

Wreckage in multiple pieces over a "larger area"

alggag · Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:25 am

Hopefully there were no workers present at the truck repair company given that it was the middle of the night.

716131 · Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:36 am

I thought it's the 727, but it was a 62 years old Convair

https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20190911-0

LoganTheBogan · Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:16 pm

Sam Chui reporting on it now. Pretty sad to see such an old aircraft go in such way

Hoping for a good outcome for the crew, although photos and videos show this may not be the case....

https://samchui.com/2019/09/11/convair- ... XjlgigzaUk

MaksFly · Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:38 pm

LoganTheBogan wrote:
Sam Chui reporting on it now. Pretty sad to see such an old aircraft go in such way
Hoping for a good outcome for the crew, although photos and videos show this may not be the case....

https://samchui.com/2019/09/11/convair- ... XjlgigzaUk

Horrible situation but could have been far worse... They could have crashed/landed just a 1/4 mile away and hit a highway, or a few hours later and there would likely be employees working on the ground.

On the flip side, I am shocked that a CV 340 is still delivering Cargo in the lower 48... something you would expect to see on buffalo air in Alaska... or was it Canada?

Revelation · Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:05 pm

SQ789 wrote:
I thought it's the 727, but it was a 62 years old Convair

https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20190911-0

Suggestion is that it is this aircraft:

bhxdtw · Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:11 pm

Local news confirming 2 crew are dead...

Reload the Toledo link above, it'll confirm.

I believe the Convair is still used by a couple of local Michigan/Midwest adhoc carriers. I'm not in a position to check which ones currently but I know we have a number of these carriers who operate out of the usual Michigan airports for these flights... PTK, YIP, etc etc

flyinryan99 · Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:22 pm

2 Fatal. Aircraft was operated by or for Barker Aeromotive out of Laredo, Texas. Not what I wanted to wake up to this morning

United787 · Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:33 pm

MaksFly wrote:
Horrible situation but could have been far worse... They could have crashed/landed just a 1/4 mile away and hit a highway, or a few hours later and there would likely be employees working on the ground.

That is what I was thinking. I drive between Cleveland and Chicago regularly and always look forward to the quick view down Runway 25 from I-80. If the plane ended up on I-80, it could have been worse, even at 3am... RIP to the pilots on board and their families.

GalaxyFlyer · Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:51 pm

Parts carriers for the auto industry, always a dodgy deal.

Byron1976 · Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:14 pm

Aren't needed 3 crew to fly a 727?

KFTG · Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:15 pm

Definitely not the 727 which would have had a crew of 3...

bhxdtw · Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:18 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Parts carriers for the auto industry, always a dodgy deal.

What makes you say that? Just curious?

Spacepope · Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:44 pm

bhxdtw wrote:
Local news confirming 2 crew are dead...

Reload the Toledo link above, it'll confirm.

I believe the Convair is still used by a couple of local Michigan/Midwest adhoc carriers. I'm not in a position to check which ones currently but I know we have a number of these carriers who operate out of the usual Michigan airports for these flights... PTK, YIP, etc etc

This, as far as I can tell, was the last piston-Convair on the auto parts runs. Until recently IFL was using Allison-powered CV-580s and Aeronaves had Dart-powered CV-640s on these runs (with a YIP-LRD stage easily hitting 5 hours). The CRJ-200 freighters seem to have displaced them for the most part.

Conquest is still using piston Convairs on the FLL-NAS runs, with a fatal crash last year.

KarlB737 · Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:13 pm

Revelation wrote:
SQ789 wrote:
I thought it's the 727, but it was a 62 years old Convair

https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20190911-0

Suggestion is that it is this aircraft:

Your photo kinda matches the vertical stabilizer in this photo in the Toledo Blade.

Courtesy: Toledo Blade

Two Confirmed Dead In Plane Crash Near Toledo Express Airport

https://www.toledoblade.com/local/police-fire/2019/09/11/officials-plane-crashes-outside-of-toledo-express-airport/stories/20190911118

kalvado · Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:18 pm

Would an old plane like this carry a "black box"? CVR may be retrofitted, but what about flight parameter recorders?

wjcandee · Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:46 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Parts carriers for the auto industry, always a dodgy deal.

Well, there are some good ones. Doesn't Doug Kalitta's operation fly some auto parts, for example?

Also, IFL Group?

But I do understand that there are some antique props doing this work as well.

crownvic · Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:47 pm

Byron1976 wrote:
Aren't needed 3 crew to fly a 727?

Sad fate for the crew and a classic piston airliner as the flyable list of those diminishes more and more.

On another note, I don't know which is worse, dragging the 727 into this at the beginning of the thread without knowing all the facts, or the questioning the need for 3 crew members indicating that person is not reading the threads for the proper information...

GalaxyFlyer · Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:42 pm

bhxdtw wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Parts carriers for the auto industry, always a dodgy deal.

What makes you say that? Just curious?

Well, when I flew checks we lost 4 planes and pilots in 3 years. Guys in the check flying business thought auto parts was a cutthroat, marginal operation. I’ve seen operators that still in the business, still that way—old planes, marginally equipped flown by pilots that are either low experience or pilots at the very end of their careers. There are no airline pilots flying auto parts. Generalization, yes, there are no doubt good guys but true overall.

MO11 · Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:57 pm

kalvado wrote:
Would an old plane like this carry a "black box"? CVR may be retrofitted, but what about flight parameter recorders?

For this company and this airplane operating under FAR125, CVR and FDR are not required.

DiamondFlyer · Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:01 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
bhxdtw wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Parts carriers for the auto industry, always a dodgy deal.

What makes you say that? Just curious?

Well, when I flew checks we lost 4 planes and pilots in 3 years. Guys in the check flying business thought auto parts was a cutthroat, marginal operation. I’ve seen operators that still in the business, still that way—old planes, marginally equipped flown by pilots that are either low experience or pilots at the very end of their careers. There are no airline pilots flying auto parts. Generalization, yes, there are no doubt good guys but true overall.

There are a number of 121 carriers who safely fly auto parts every day.

DL_Mech · Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:16 pm

Delivered to SAS in 1957:

Byron1976 · Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:24 pm

crownvic wrote:
Byron1976 wrote:
Aren't needed 3 crew to fly a 727?

Sad fate for the crew and a classic piston airliner as the flyable list of those diminishes more and more.

On another note, I don't know which is worse, dragging the 727 into this at the beginning of the thread without knowing all the facts, or the questioning the need for 3 crew members indicating that person is not reading the threads for the proper information...

Sir, with all respect. I know that seems to be a wrong initial information about the plane lost. I readed that someone mentioned a 727, and other said about a Convair plane. I just was doing a simple question about how many crew are needed to operate a 727 beacuse the number of fatalities. Just that. I don't know all the facts about this accident, neither I'm speculating about nothing. You don't need to be that rude.

flyinryan99 · Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:08 pm

Byron1976 wrote:
crownvic wrote:
Byron1976 wrote:
Aren't needed 3 crew to fly a 727?

Sad fate for the crew and a classic piston airliner as the flyable list of those diminishes more and more.

On another note, I don't know which is worse, dragging the 727 into this at the beginning of the thread without knowing all the facts, or the questioning the need for 3 crew members indicating that person is not reading the threads for the proper information...

Sir, with all respect. I know that seems to be a wrong initial information about the plane lost. I readed that someone mentioned a 727, and other said about a Convair plane. I just was doing a simple question about how many crew are needed to operate a 727 beacuse the number of fatalities. Just that. I don't know all the facts about this accident, neither I'm speculating about nothing. You don't need to be that rude.

If it's worth anything, first reports from people that work at the airport, were that it could have been Moby Dick. But after a quick check of flight tracking websites, it was quickly dismissed and determined and later confirmed it was the Convair. Looks like the aircraft was just re-registered with the FAA recently and it has been a long time since the aircraft flew. Flight Aware's decent profile doesn't seem like it was abnormal and there doesn't seem to have been any emergency call. Will try and find out more on Friday when I fly out...can't we all get a long? :lol:

tb727 · Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:59 pm

wjcandee wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Parts carriers for the auto industry, always a dodgy deal.

Well, there are some good ones. Doesn't Doug Kalitta's operation fly some auto parts, for example?

Also, IFL Group?

But I do understand that there are some antique props doing this work as well.

It's all dodgy with auto parts. That's the way it is unfortunately, I did it for a long time and got out when it started getting to where I couldn't work in the grey areas of the regs anymore. RIP to my freightdog brothers.

hivue · Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:11 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
bhxdtw wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Parts carriers for the auto industry, always a dodgy deal.

What makes you say that? Just curious?

Well, when I flew checks we lost 4 planes and pilots in 3 years. Guys in the check flying business thought auto parts was a cutthroat, marginal operation. I’ve seen operators that still in the business, still that way—old planes, marginally equipped flown by pilots that are either low experience or pilots at the very end of their careers. There are no airline pilots flying auto parts. Generalization, yes, there are no doubt good guys but true overall.

What precisely is it about check flying and auto parts flying that attracts the low end operators? Is the same true for, say, GA aviation parts, machine parts in general, electronics parts, other types of paper financial freight?

GalaxyFlyer · Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:38 pm

Check flying is gone, replaced by electronic clearing. Auto parts is like “hot shot” trucking. Assembly line is about to run out and shut down. The manufacturer calls out the cavalry—last minute operators who don’t have the capital to buy new planes or equip them with stuff like FDR or the like. This was a 62-year old piston airplane—who has R-2800 experience and parts.

GF

DiamondFlyer · Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:54 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Check flying is gone, replaced by electronic clearing. Auto parts is like “hot shot” trucking. Assembly line is about to run out and shut down. The manufacturer calls out the cavalry—last minute operators who don’t have the capital to buy new planes or equip them with stuff like FDR or the like. This was a 62-year old piston airplane—who has R-2800 experience and parts.

GF

Exactly how do you propose fitting an FDR to the plane? Just because it doesn’t have one, doesn’t make it inherently unsafe. Nor do piston engines. At the utilization these planes get, the only way to make money is to use older affordable airplanes, and have pilots who can handle them.

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