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Convair CV-440 Freighter Crash at TOL

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:19 am
by tys777
There are reports of a cargo plane crash a little while ago at KTOL.

https://www.13abc.com/content/news/Carg ... 11491.html

Looks like it could be this 727.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/IJW ... /KAFW/KTOL

If so, that is interjet west. Adhoc auto part supply flights.

Re: Cargo Plane Crash at TOL

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:25 am
by airkas1
FR24 has it on approach to KTOL around 06:10 UTC, N209TR.


Re: Cargo Plane Crash at TOL

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:30 am
by sandyb123
airkas1 wrote:
FR24 has it on approach to KTOL around 06:10 UTC, N209TR.



Although it also appears to have taxied to the ramp, or is that presumptive automation on FR24's part?

Sandyb123

Re: Cargo Plane Crash at TOL

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:33 am
by SQ789
Did it crashed into an hangar?

Re: Cargo Plane Crash at TOL

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:39 am
by airkas1
I can't open this link (access denied): https://www.wtol.com/article/news/local ... 700e35319e

But the short SEO text for that link says:
"Crews are on the scene of a plane crash near Toledo Express Airport Wednesday morning. The Lucas County Sheriff's Office says the plane crashed on Garden Road east of the airport. Police say several things are on fire and they believe the plane may have crashed into a parked semi."


EDIT:
That's in the extended area of the runway it was on approach to and across a highway. There seems to be a truck repair/towing company there as well, so the parked semi makes sense too.

Re: Cargo Plane Crash at TOL

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:45 am
by MaksFly

Re: Cargo Plane Crash at TOL

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:46 am
by airkas1
MaksFly wrote:

Still access denied for me. Any chance you could give a quick description?

Re: Cargo Plane Crash at TOL

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:51 am
by Redd
airkas1 wrote:
MaksFly wrote:

Still access denied for me. Any chance you could give a quick description?



Doesn't look good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4vC2lgkLAg

Re: Cargo Plane Crash at TOL

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:52 am
by MaksFly
airkas1 wrote:
MaksFly wrote:

Still access denied for me. Any chance you could give a quick description?


Press conference in about an hour.

Plane came from an airport in Memphis area.

Crashed into what seems to be a truck stock or repair place.

Believe to have carried car parts.

Re: Cargo Plane Crash at TOL

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:59 am
by intrance
airkas1 wrote:
MaksFly wrote:

Still access denied for me. Any chance you could give a quick description?
Try a US VPN if you have access to one, should solve the "Access Denied" issue if you are not located in the US.

Re: Cargo Plane Crash at TOL

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:02 am
by MaksFly
Happened around 3 AM, again said the plane coming from small airport in memphis. No fire hydrants nearby so they are calling folks in.

Press conference soon.

Re: Cargo Plane Crash at TOL

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:04 am
by MaksFly

Re: Cargo Plane Crash at TOL

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:05 am
by MaksFly
Looks like right on approach, shortly before the landing strip by the highway. wow.

Re: Cargo Plane Crash at TOL

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:07 am
by airkas1
MaksFly wrote:
Looks like right on approach, shortly before the landing strip by the highway. wow.

Except that according to FR24 the aircraft landed on runway 07 (which is from the other side).

Re: Cargo Plane Crash at TOL

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:09 am
by MaksFly
airkas1 wrote:
MaksFly wrote:
Looks like right on approach, shortly before the landing strip by the highway. wow.

Except that according to FR24 the aircraft landed on runway 07 (which is from the other side).


Bad data?

Failed go around?

Different plane?

Re: Cargo Plane Crash at TOL

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:11 am
by MaksFly
As per Flightaware...
N24DR CVLP Millington-Memphis (KNQA) 11:14p CDT 02:42a EDT
https://flightaware.com/live/airport/KTOL

Coming from Memphis... landing around 2:42.

Re: Cargo Plane Crash at TOL

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:15 am
by MaksFly
Yep... makes sense.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/n24dr Unknown status...
and flightaware shows landing from the other side. on 25.

Re: Cargo Plane Crash at TOL

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:16 am
by KLMatSJC
MaksFly wrote:
As per Flightaware...
N24DR CVLP Millington-Memphis (KNQA) 11:14p CDT 02:42a EDT
https://flightaware.com/live/airport/KTOL

Coming from Memphis... landing around 2:42.


The news link shows wreckage that matches the color scheme of this bird.

Re: Cargo Plane Crash at TOL

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:17 am
by OA940
Any news on survivors? Doesn't look too good...

Re: Cargo Plane Crash at TOL

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:18 am
by MaksFly
OA940 wrote:
Any news on survivors? Doesn't look too good...


Apparently an update shortly. Prayers for families and those involved.

Re: Cargo Plane Crash at TOL

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:20 am
by airkas1
ASN has an entry now for this crash: https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20190911-0

Re: Cargo Plane Crash at TOL

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:33 am
by MaksFly
Believed to be a crew of 2 as per manifest.

Re: Cargo Plane Crash at TOL

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:50 am
by MaksFly
as per reports, no mayday, no distress calls apparently.

Wreckage in multiple pieces over a "larger area"

Re: Cargo Plane Crash at TOL

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:25 am
by alggag
Hopefully there were no workers present at the truck repair company given that it was the middle of the night.

Re: Cargo Plane Crash at TOL

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:36 am
by SQ789
I thought it's the 727, but it was a 62 years old Convair

https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20190911-0

Re: Cargo Plane Crash at TOL

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:16 pm
by LoganTheBogan
Sam Chui reporting on it now. Pretty sad to see such an old aircraft go in such way :(
Hoping for a good outcome for the crew, although photos and videos show this may not be the case....

https://samchui.com/2019/09/11/convair- ... XjlgigzaUk

Re: Cargo Plane Crash at TOL

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:38 pm
by MaksFly
LoganTheBogan wrote:
Sam Chui reporting on it now. Pretty sad to see such an old aircraft go in such way :(
Hoping for a good outcome for the crew, although photos and videos show this may not be the case....

https://samchui.com/2019/09/11/convair- ... XjlgigzaUk


Horrible situation but could have been far worse... They could have crashed/landed just a 1/4 mile away and hit a highway, or a few hours later and there would likely be employees working on the ground.

On the flip side, I am shocked that a CV 340 is still delivering Cargo in the lower 48... something you would expect to see on buffalo air in Alaska... or was it Canada?

Re: Cargo Plane Crash at TOL

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:05 pm
by Revelation
SQ789 wrote:
I thought it's the 727, but it was a 62 years old Convair

https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20190911-0

Suggestion is that it is this aircraft:

Image

Re: Cargo Plane Crash at TOL

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:11 pm
by bhxdtw
Local news confirming 2 crew are dead... :(

Reload the Toledo link above, it'll confirm.

I believe the Convair is still used by a couple of local Michigan/Midwest adhoc carriers. I'm not in a position to check which ones currently but I know we have a number of these carriers who operate out of the usual Michigan airports for these flights... PTK, YIP, etc etc

Re: Cargo Plane Crash at TOL

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:22 pm
by flyinryan99
2 Fatal. Aircraft was operated by or for Barker Aeromotive out of Laredo, Texas. Not what I wanted to wake up to this morning :(

Re: Cargo Plane Crash at TOL

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:33 pm
by United787
MaksFly wrote:
Horrible situation but could have been far worse... They could have crashed/landed just a 1/4 mile away and hit a highway, or a few hours later and there would likely be employees working on the ground.


That is what I was thinking. I drive between Cleveland and Chicago regularly and always look forward to the quick view down Runway 25 from I-80. If the plane ended up on I-80, it could have been worse, even at 3am... RIP to the pilots on board and their families.

Re: Cargo Plane Crash at TOL

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:51 pm
by GalaxyFlyer
Parts carriers for the auto industry, always a dodgy deal.

Re: Cargo Plane Crash at TOL

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:14 pm
by Byron1976
Aren't needed 3 crew to fly a 727?

Re: Cargo Plane Crash at TOL

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:15 pm
by KFTG
Definitely not the 727 which would have had a crew of 3...

Re: Cargo Plane Crash at TOL

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:18 pm
by bhxdtw
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Parts carriers for the auto industry, always a dodgy deal.


What makes you say that? Just curious?

Re: Cargo Plane Crash at TOL

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:44 pm
by Spacepope
bhxdtw wrote:
Local news confirming 2 crew are dead... :(

Reload the Toledo link above, it'll confirm.

I believe the Convair is still used by a couple of local Michigan/Midwest adhoc carriers. I'm not in a position to check which ones currently but I know we have a number of these carriers who operate out of the usual Michigan airports for these flights... PTK, YIP, etc etc


This, as far as I can tell, was the last piston-Convair on the auto parts runs. Until recently IFL was using Allison-powered CV-580s and Aeronaves had Dart-powered CV-640s on these runs (with a YIP-LRD stage easily hitting 5 hours). The CRJ-200 freighters seem to have displaced them for the most part.

Conquest is still using piston Convairs on the FLL-NAS runs, with a fatal crash last year.

Re: Cargo Plane Crash at TOL

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:13 pm
by KarlB737
Revelation wrote:
SQ789 wrote:
I thought it's the 727, but it was a 62 years old Convair

https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20190911-0

Suggestion is that it is this aircraft:

Image


Your photo kinda matches the vertical stabilizer in this photo in the Toledo Blade.

Courtesy: Toledo Blade

Two Confirmed Dead In Plane Crash Near Toledo Express Airport

https://www.toledoblade.com/local/police-fire/2019/09/11/officials-plane-crashes-outside-of-toledo-express-airport/stories/20190911118

Re: Convair CV-440 Freighter Crash at TOL

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:18 pm
by kalvado
Would an old plane like this carry a "black box"? CVR may be retrofitted, but what about flight parameter recorders?

Re: Cargo Plane Crash at TOL

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:46 pm
by wjcandee
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Parts carriers for the auto industry, always a dodgy deal.


Well, there are some good ones. Doesn't Doug Kalitta's operation fly some auto parts, for example?

Also, IFL Group?

But I do understand that there are some antique props doing this work as well.

Re: Cargo Plane Crash at TOL

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:47 pm
by crownvic
Byron1976 wrote:
Aren't needed 3 crew to fly a 727?


Sad fate for the crew and a classic piston airliner as the flyable list of those diminishes more and more.

On another note, I don't know which is worse, dragging the 727 into this at the beginning of the thread without knowing all the facts, or the questioning the need for 3 crew members indicating that person is not reading the threads for the proper information...

Re: Cargo Plane Crash at TOL

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:42 pm
by GalaxyFlyer
bhxdtw wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Parts carriers for the auto industry, always a dodgy deal.


What makes you say that? Just curious?


Well, when I flew checks we lost 4 planes and pilots in 3 years. Guys in the check flying business thought auto parts was a cutthroat, marginal operation. I’ve seen operators that still in the business, still that way—old planes, marginally equipped flown by pilots that are either low experience or pilots at the very end of their careers. There are no airline pilots flying auto parts. Generalization, yes, there are no doubt good guys but true overall.

Re: Convair CV-440 Freighter Crash at TOL

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:57 pm
by MO11
kalvado wrote:
Would an old plane like this carry a "black box"? CVR may be retrofitted, but what about flight parameter recorders?


For this company and this airplane operating under FAR125, CVR and FDR are not required.

Re: Cargo Plane Crash at TOL

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:01 pm
by DiamondFlyer
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
bhxdtw wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Parts carriers for the auto industry, always a dodgy deal.


What makes you say that? Just curious?


Well, when I flew checks we lost 4 planes and pilots in 3 years. Guys in the check flying business thought auto parts was a cutthroat, marginal operation. I’ve seen operators that still in the business, still that way—old planes, marginally equipped flown by pilots that are either low experience or pilots at the very end of their careers. There are no airline pilots flying auto parts. Generalization, yes, there are no doubt good guys but true overall.


There are a number of 121 carriers who safely fly auto parts every day.

Re: Convair CV-440 Freighter Crash at TOL

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:16 pm
by DL_Mech
Delivered to SAS in 1957:


Re: Cargo Plane Crash at TOL

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:24 pm
by Byron1976
crownvic wrote:
Byron1976 wrote:
Aren't needed 3 crew to fly a 727?


Sad fate for the crew and a classic piston airliner as the flyable list of those diminishes more and more.

On another note, I don't know which is worse, dragging the 727 into this at the beginning of the thread without knowing all the facts, or the questioning the need for 3 crew members indicating that person is not reading the threads for the proper information...


Sir, with all respect. I know that seems to be a wrong initial information about the plane lost. I readed that someone mentioned a 727, and other said about a Convair plane. I just was doing a simple question about how many crew are needed to operate a 727 beacuse the number of fatalities. Just that. I don't know all the facts about this accident, neither I'm speculating about nothing. You don't need to be that rude.

Re: Cargo Plane Crash at TOL

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:08 pm
by flyinryan99
Byron1976 wrote:
crownvic wrote:
Byron1976 wrote:
Aren't needed 3 crew to fly a 727?


Sad fate for the crew and a classic piston airliner as the flyable list of those diminishes more and more.

On another note, I don't know which is worse, dragging the 727 into this at the beginning of the thread without knowing all the facts, or the questioning the need for 3 crew members indicating that person is not reading the threads for the proper information...


Sir, with all respect. I know that seems to be a wrong initial information about the plane lost. I readed that someone mentioned a 727, and other said about a Convair plane. I just was doing a simple question about how many crew are needed to operate a 727 beacuse the number of fatalities. Just that. I don't know all the facts about this accident, neither I'm speculating about nothing. You don't need to be that rude.


If it's worth anything, first reports from people that work at the airport, were that it could have been Moby Dick. But after a quick check of flight tracking websites, it was quickly dismissed and determined and later confirmed it was the Convair. Looks like the aircraft was just re-registered with the FAA recently and it has been a long time since the aircraft flew. Flight Aware's decent profile doesn't seem like it was abnormal and there doesn't seem to have been any emergency call. Will try and find out more on Friday when I fly out...can't we all get a long? :lol:

Re: Cargo Plane Crash at TOL

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:59 pm
by tb727
wjcandee wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Parts carriers for the auto industry, always a dodgy deal.


Well, there are some good ones. Doesn't Doug Kalitta's operation fly some auto parts, for example?

Also, IFL Group?

But I do understand that there are some antique props doing this work as well.


It's all dodgy with auto parts. That's the way it is unfortunately, I did it for a long time and got out when it started getting to where I couldn't work in the grey areas of the regs anymore. RIP to my freightdog brothers.

Re: Cargo Plane Crash at TOL

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:11 pm
by hivue
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
bhxdtw wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Parts carriers for the auto industry, always a dodgy deal.


What makes you say that? Just curious?


Well, when I flew checks we lost 4 planes and pilots in 3 years. Guys in the check flying business thought auto parts was a cutthroat, marginal operation. I’ve seen operators that still in the business, still that way—old planes, marginally equipped flown by pilots that are either low experience or pilots at the very end of their careers. There are no airline pilots flying auto parts. Generalization, yes, there are no doubt good guys but true overall.


What precisely is it about check flying and auto parts flying that attracts the low end operators? Is the same true for, say, GA aviation parts, machine parts in general, electronics parts, other types of paper financial freight?

Re: Convair CV-440 Freighter Crash at TOL

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:38 pm
by GalaxyFlyer
Check flying is gone, replaced by electronic clearing. Auto parts is like “hot shot” trucking. Assembly line is about to run out and shut down. The manufacturer calls out the cavalry—last minute operators who don’t have the capital to buy new planes or equip them with stuff like FDR or the like. This was a 62-year old piston airplane—who has R-2800 experience and parts.

GF

Re: Convair CV-440 Freighter Crash at TOL

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:54 pm
by DiamondFlyer
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Check flying is gone, replaced by electronic clearing. Auto parts is like “hot shot” trucking. Assembly line is about to run out and shut down. The manufacturer calls out the cavalry—last minute operators who don’t have the capital to buy new planes or equip them with stuff like FDR or the like. This was a 62-year old piston airplane—who has R-2800 experience and parts.

GF


Exactly how do you propose fitting an FDR to the plane? Just because it doesn’t have one, doesn’t make it inherently unsafe. Nor do piston engines. At the utilization these planes get, the only way to make money is to use older affordable airplanes, and have pilots who can handle them.