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Thibault973 wrote:DY dropped their own ORY-CDG service
Thibault973 wrote:Hi,
In June next year, Corsair (SS) will launch a new daily flight from ORY to EWR, thus entering a very crowded market with 9 airlines offering service between the 2 cities (AF on CDG/ORY-JFK, DL CDG-JFK, AA CDG-JFK, DY CDG-JFK, UA CDG-EWR, SE CDG-EWR, LV ORY-EWR and B0 ORY-EWR). Interesting enough DY dropped their own ORY-CDG service earlier this year and SE just moved theirs from JFK to EWR this summer.
I was wondering if there was other any long haul city pairs that saw that many carriers competing. It's not the first time that the two cities are linked by 9 airlines as it was briefly the case last year when PF flew between CDG and EWR.
Thibault973 wrote:It's not the first time that the two cities are linked by 9 airlines as it was briefly the case last year when PF flew between CDG and EWR.
Nicknuzzii wrote:https://centreforaviation.com/news/corsair-to-launch-paris-orly-new-yorknewark-service-in-jun-2020-936488
seansasLCY wrote:French Bee has also just announced that it will fly daily to EWR with its A350.
https://twitter.com/BrunoTrevidic/statu ... 01249?s=20
seansasLCY wrote:French Bee has also just announced that it will fly daily to EWR with its A350.
https://twitter.com/BrunoTrevidic/statu ... 01249?s=20
SQ22 wrote:Can you provide a source please?
seat1a wrote:Does LaCompagnie get it's share of the business market?
ojjunior wrote:Wow, 10 different airlines in a single route is quite remarkable.![]()
seat1a wrote:Does LaCompagnie get it's share of the business market?
drdisque wrote:seat1a wrote:Does LaCompagnie get it's share of the business market?
La Compagnie is an interesting case as it charges far below the prevailing business class fare on major carriers, yet they don't really need to command the prevailing fare for their business model to work because the service and network is pretty bare-bones.
Considering it has been in the air 5+ years I'd say it's probably doing OK.
FSDan wrote:
Technically it's 4 different routes, but still one city pair. In addition to there being so many airlines, there's a decent amount of frequency too: AF is 4x daily on JFK-CDG (with 2x daily being A380s), DL is 2x daily in the summer, and UA is 2x daily in the summer. I believe B0 is more than daily on EWR-ORY, and I forget if DY is more than daily on JFK-CDG in the summer...
flyguy1 wrote:No love for JFK, unfortunately.
SCQ83 wrote:9 carriers in Paris-NYC and there are no flights between Lyon, Marseille, Bordeaux, Nantes or Toulouse to the US. That is French centralism at its best!
flyguy1 wrote:No love for JFK, unfortunately.
Cointrin330 wrote:Interesting....and weird adds, given the heavy competition but guessing the French Bee and Corsair POS will be heavily skewed from France, not the US as neither brand are really known on this side of the pond. Yields will be trashed across all the operators, though presumably corporate contracts favor AF/DL, UA, and AA in roughly that order.
Alsatian wrote:Given the amount of AA' service reductions at JFK recently, I would not be surprised if they'll give up their CDG route with all these new newcomers. Hopefully I am wrong.
Thibault973 wrote:FSDan wrote:
Technically it's 4 different routes, but still one city pair. In addition to there being so many airlines, there's a decent amount of frequency too: AF is 4x daily on JFK-CDG (with 2x daily being A380s), DL is 2x daily in the summer, and UA is 2x daily in the summer. I believe B0 is more than daily on EWR-ORY, and I forget if DY is more than daily on JFK-CDG in the summer...
The city pair should see 113 weekly flights next summer :
ORY - EWR
- La Compagnie 10 weekly 321
- Level 5 weekly 332 (up from 4 in 2019 but down from the up to 3 daily offered by Openskies in S18)
- Corsair daily 339
- French Bee daily 359
ORY-JFK
- Air France daily 77E
CDG-EWR
- United daily 781+ daily 762
- XL daily 333 (they haven't released their plans for next summer yet but the route was flown daily last summer, down from 10 weekly to JFK in S18)
CDG - JFK
- Air France 2 daily 388 + daily 77W and daily 77E
- Delta 2 daily 333
- American daily 77E
- Norwegian daily 789 (down from one daily each to JFK and EWR in 2018 - this flight was operated by Hi Fly 388 all last week)
Thibault973 wrote:
The city pair should see 113 weekly flights next summer :
ORY - EWR
- Corsair daily 339
Gabrielz wrote:Alsatian wrote:Given the amount of AA' service reductions at JFK recently, I would not be surprised if they'll give up their CDG route with all these new newcomers. Hopefully I am wrong.
I think you’re probably right. Unless corp contracts are sufficient to sustain it, seems more logical they’ll move to PHL.
-G
Thibault973 wrote:Cointrin330 wrote:Interesting....and weird adds, given the heavy competition but guessing the French Bee and Corsair POS will be heavily skewed from France, not the US as neither brand are really known on this side of the pond. Yields will be trashed across all the operators, though presumably corporate contracts favor AF/DL, UA, and AA in roughly that order.
Air France is currently offering flights to JFK for 299e return so yields sure must be trash. A few months ago American offered flights for something like 259e return on the route. Level's basic fare starts at 140e one way. I don't see how much lower the new entrants could go to stimulate demand.
Alsatian wrote:Given the amount of AA' service reductions at JFK recently, I would not be surprised if they'll give up their CDG route with all these new newcomers. Hopefully I am wrong.
AsiaTravel wrote:flyguy1 wrote:No love for JFK, unfortunately.
You mean no slot at JFK, unfortunately
FSDan wrote:Alsatian wrote:Given the amount of AA' service reductions at JFK recently, I would not be surprised if they'll give up their CDG route with all these new newcomers. Hopefully I am wrong.
I would be surprised. CDG is AA's largest non-JV-hub European station, and NYC-CDG is a major business market that AA needs to be in. Vasu Raja commented in one of the recent route announcement "Tell Me Why" episodes that since upgauging all JFK-Europe transatlantic flights to the 772, they have been very profitable.
Also, regarding another poster's comment about moving the flight to PHL: AA's not in the JFK-CDG market to serve connecting traffic to Paris - they're in it to serve the local O&D. That's something they would lose if they moved the capacity to PHL.
Alsatian wrote:Given the amount of AA' service reductions at JFK recently, I would not be surprised if they'll give up their CDG route with all these new newcomers. Hopefully I am wrong.
Cointrin330 wrote:Gabrielz wrote:Alsatian wrote:Given the amount of AA' service reductions at JFK recently, I would not be surprised if they'll give up their CDG route with all these new newcomers. Hopefully I am wrong.
I think you’re probably right. Unless corp contracts are sufficient to sustain it, seems more logical they’ll move to PHL.
-G
They don't really need to move JFK-CDG to PHL since they already have a PHL-CDG flight and presumably could double the service since CDG slots would presumably be avalaible. Ironically, by upgauging from the wretched 767-300ER to the 777-200ER, AA has a competitive product on JFK-CDG for the first time in a long while. JFK-Paris (it started as JFK-ORY) is AA's longest standing NYC TATL route. It was launched in 1987. I think they will stay in the market as long as they fill the front of the plane as the rest of corporate contracts ex JFK are all DL/AF.
CDG is AA's #2 station in Europe after LHR with DFW (it has been operating 2 x daily this summer), MIA, JFK, CLT, PHL, and seasonally from ORD. Amazing that AA can't make CDG work year round from ORD.
SeanM1997 wrote:Its incredible that Paris-New York is 113 weekly across 9 operators whilst London-New York will be 227 weekly across only 6
HP69 wrote:Which of AA’s six remaining EU routes from JFK are most likely to get cut?
Alsatian wrote:Cointrin330 wrote:Gabrielz wrote:
I think you’re probably right. Unless corp contracts are sufficient to sustain it, seems more logical they’ll move to PHL.
-G
They don't really need to move JFK-CDG to PHL since they already have a PHL-CDG flight and presumably could double the service since CDG slots would presumably be avalaible. Ironically, by upgauging from the wretched 767-300ER to the 777-200ER, AA has a competitive product on JFK-CDG for the first time in a long while. JFK-Paris (it started as JFK-ORY) is AA's longest standing NYC TATL route. It was launched in 1987. I think they will stay in the market as long as they fill the front of the plane as the rest of corporate contracts ex JFK are all DL/AF.
CDG is AA's #2 station in Europe after LHR with DFW (it has been operating 2 x daily this summer), MIA, JFK, CLT, PHL, and seasonally from ORD. Amazing that AA can't make CDG work year round from ORD.
I agree with you but if AA can drop key transcon markets ex JFK like SEA, it is less hard to imagine them axing key transat markets too. CDG-BOS and the second daily CDG-JFK had been cancelled two or three years ago facing a growing competition. But again, I hope I am wrong, I want legacies to stay on historical premium routes.
SCQ83 wrote:9 carriers in Paris-NYC and there are no flights between Lyon, Marseille, Bordeaux, Nantes or Toulouse to the US. That is French centralism at its best!
debonair wrote:BTW will Corsair have a 3-3-3 layout like on the rest of their A330's?
Alsatian wrote:Cointrin330 wrote:Gabrielz wrote:
I think you’re probably right. Unless corp contracts are sufficient to sustain it, seems more logical they’ll move to PHL.
-G
They don't really need to move JFK-CDG to PHL since they already have a PHL-CDG flight and presumably could double the service since CDG slots would presumably be avalaible. Ironically, by upgauging from the wretched 767-300ER to the 777-200ER, AA has a competitive product on JFK-CDG for the first time in a long while. JFK-Paris (it started as JFK-ORY) is AA's longest standing NYC TATL route. It was launched in 1987. I think they will stay in the market as long as they fill the front of the plane as the rest of corporate contracts ex JFK are all DL/AF.
CDG is AA's #2 station in Europe after LHR with DFW (it has been operating 2 x daily this summer), MIA, JFK, CLT, PHL, and seasonally from ORD. Amazing that AA can't make CDG work year round from ORD.
I agree with you but if AA can drop key transcon markets ex JFK like SEA, it is less hard to imagine them axing key transat markets too. CDG-BOS and the second daily CDG-JFK had been cancelled two or three years ago facing a growing competition. But again, I hope I am wrong, I want legacies to stay on historical premium routes.
Cointrin330 wrote:Alsatian wrote:Cointrin330 wrote:
They don't really need to move JFK-CDG to PHL since they already have a PHL-CDG flight and presumably could double the service since CDG slots would presumably be avalaible. Ironically, by upgauging from the wretched 767-300ER to the 777-200ER, AA has a competitive product on JFK-CDG for the first time in a long while. JFK-Paris (it started as JFK-ORY) is AA's longest standing NYC TATL route. It was launched in 1987. I think they will stay in the market as long as they fill the front of the plane as the rest of corporate contracts ex JFK are all DL/AF.
CDG is AA's #2 station in Europe after LHR with DFW (it has been operating 2 x daily this summer), MIA, JFK, CLT, PHL, and seasonally from ORD. Amazing that AA can't make CDG work year round from ORD.
I agree with you but if AA can drop key transcon markets ex JFK like SEA, it is less hard to imagine them axing key transat markets too. CDG-BOS and the second daily CDG-JFK had been cancelled two or three years ago facing a growing competition. But again, I hope I am wrong, I want legacies to stay on historical premium routes.
Isn't SEA a temporary cut attributed to the runway work and the deal AA cut with the DOT to hold onto suspended slots and the MAX groundings which require 737-800s to be shuffled around the system though I agree, a lone JFK-SEA route isn't competitive when you have DL, AS, and B6 in the market as well with DL dominating it and likely taking a ton of NY originating business traffic. The second CDG-JFK route that was operated for a while (AA 120/121) was flown with a 757, a product equally not competitive alongside the 763 which was used for the AA 44/45 flight. The 777 changes that substantially. It is a capacity increase on the 763 it replaced and AA in JFK-CDG is not about frequency. It is about serving the #2 TATL destination ex-NYC.