Hi,

In June next year, Corsair (SS) will launch a new daily flight from ORY to EWR, thus entering a very crowded market with 9 airlines offering service between the 2 cities (AF on CDG/ORY-JFK, DL CDG-JFK, AA CDG-JFK, DY CDG-JFK, UA CDG-EWR, SE CDG-EWR, LV ORY-EWR and B0 ORY-EWR). Interesting enough DY dropped their own ORY-CDG service earlier this year and SE just moved theirs from JFK to EWR this summer.

I was wondering if there was other any long haul city pairs that saw that many carriers competing. It's not the first time that the two cities are linked by 9 airlines as it was briefly the case last year when PF flew between CDG and EWR.

Thibault973 wrote:

DY dropped their own ORY-CDG service

As amusing of a flight as that would be... what destination did you mean to say here? EWR?

Interesting add, does anyone know much about there history? Also EWR-ORY/CDG is an interesting market just last year DL, UA, PF, DY, EC, and BO we're in the market. This then changed over 50% to UA, BO, LV, XL, and now SS.

Thibault973 wrote:

Hi,

In June next year, Corsair (SS) will launch a new daily flight from ORY to EWR, thus entering a very crowded market with 9 airlines offering service between the 2 cities (AF on CDG/ORY-JFK, DL CDG-JFK, AA CDG-JFK, DY CDG-JFK, UA CDG-EWR, SE CDG-EWR, LV ORY-EWR and B0 ORY-EWR). Interesting enough DY dropped their own ORY-CDG service earlier this year and SE just moved theirs from JFK to EWR this summer.

I was wondering if there was other any long haul city pairs that saw that many carriers competing. It's not the first time that the two cities are linked by 9 airlines as it was briefly the case last year when PF flew between CDG and EWR.

Can you provide a source please?

Thibault973 wrote:

It's not the first time that the two cities are linked by 9 airlines as it was briefly the case last year when PF flew between CDG and EWR.

I have trouble thinking of even short routes that are served by that many airlines! I think Kuala Lumpur - Singapore is served by 10 airlines

Nicknuzzii wrote:

https://centreforaviation.com/news/corsair-to-launch-paris-orly-new-yorknewark-service-in-jun-2020-936488

Thanks.

The official announcement: http://lemag.corsair.fr/2019/09/10/cors ... juin-2020/

Wow surprised by how many carriers are on this route. I tried counting them on my fingers before reading your post and I could only come up with six off the top of my head

9 carriers in Paris-NYC and there are no flights between Lyon, Marseille, Bordeaux, Nantes or Toulouse to the US. That is French centralism at its best!

B6 had Paris pegged as a city they’re considering service to. Market looks pretty crowded!

French Bee has also just announced that it will fly daily to EWR with its A350.

https://twitter.com/BrunoTrevidic/statu ... 01249?s=20

seansasLCY wrote:

French Bee has also just announced that it will fly daily to EWR with its A350.

https://twitter.com/BrunoTrevidic/statu ... 01249?s=20

Interesting development.
Norwegian vs French blue:
787-9: 35W/309Y=344 seats
A350-900: 36W/376Y=411 seats

Everything else equal I'm guessing French Blue will have a lower cost per seat.

seansasLCY wrote:

French Bee has also just announced that it will fly daily to EWR with its A350.

https://twitter.com/BrunoTrevidic/statu ... 01249?s=20

Just saw that, so there will be 10 airlines from Paris to New York next summer !!

SQ22 wrote:

Can you provide a source please?

Sorry, couldn't find any sources in english at the time, only in French

Could we change the title to reflect the fact that they will be not 9 but 10 carriers on the route ?

Does LaCompagnie get it's share of the business market?

Frenchbee has the announcement on their home page: https://us.frenchbee.com/en

Wow, 10 different airlines in a single route is quite remarkable.
Offer and demand just called and asked for the ticket avg price on the route.

seat1a wrote:

Does LaCompagnie get it's share of the business market?

La Compagnie has a lot of the upscale tourism market and some business market. I know one large financial firm based in New York heavily pushes their employees to take La Compagnie when flying to Paris and when they used to fly to Luton.

ojjunior wrote:

Wow, 10 different airlines in a single route is quite remarkable.

Technically it's 4 different routes, but still one city pair. In addition to there being so many airlines, there's a decent amount of frequency too: AF is 4x daily on JFK-CDG (with 2x daily being A380s), DL is 2x daily in the summer, and UA is 2x daily in the summer. I believe B0 is more than daily on EWR-ORY, and I forget if DY is more than daily on JFK-CDG in the summer...

seat1a wrote:

Does LaCompagnie get it's share of the business market?

La Compagnie is an interesting case as it charges far below the prevailing business class fare on major carriers, yet they don't really need to command the prevailing fare for their business model to work because the service and network is pretty bare-bones.

Considering it has been in the air 5+ years I'd say it's probably doing OK.

drdisque wrote:

seat1a wrote:

Does LaCompagnie get it's share of the business market?

La Compagnie is an interesting case as it charges far below the prevailing business class fare on major carriers, yet they don't really need to command the prevailing fare for their business model to work because the service and network is pretty bare-bones.

Considering it has been in the air 5+ years I'd say it's probably doing OK.

They started EWR-NCE recently, so that is a good sign for sure.

And yet the US3 choose to object about Air Italy's MXP-USA routes which has less competition versus PAR-NYC.

FSDan wrote:

Technically it's 4 different routes, but still one city pair. In addition to there being so many airlines, there's a decent amount of frequency too: AF is 4x daily on JFK-CDG (with 2x daily being A380s), DL is 2x daily in the summer, and UA is 2x daily in the summer. I believe B0 is more than daily on EWR-ORY, and I forget if DY is more than daily on JFK-CDG in the summer...

The city pair should see 113 weekly flights next summer :

ORY - EWR
- La Compagnie 10 weekly 321
- Level 5 weekly 332 (up from 4 in 2019 but down from the up to 3 daily offered by Openskies in S18)
- Corsair daily 339
- French Bee daily 359

ORY-JFK
- Air France daily 77E

CDG-EWR
- United daily 781+ daily 762
- XL daily 333 (they haven't released their plans for next summer yet but the route was flown daily last summer, down from 10 weekly to JFK in S18)

CDG - JFK
- Air France 2 daily 388 + daily 77W and daily 77E
- Delta 2 daily 333
- American daily 77E
- Norwegian daily 789 (down from one daily each to JFK and EWR in 2018 - this flight was operated by Hi Fly 388 all last week)

No love for JFK, unfortunately.

flyguy1 wrote:

No love for JFK, unfortunately.

You mean no slot at JFK, unfortunately

SCQ83 wrote:

9 carriers in Paris-NYC and there are no flights between Lyon, Marseille, Bordeaux, Nantes or Toulouse to the US. That is French centralism at its best!

I think Montreal has better connectivity to France than the entirety of the US combined.

Interesting....and weird adds, given the heavy competition but guessing the French Bee and Corsair POS will be heavily skewed from France, not the US as neither brand are really known on this side of the pond. Yields will be trashed across all the operators, though presumably corporate contracts favor AF/DL, UA, and AA in roughly that order.

The only other guess is that both French operators sense Norwegian may not be a factor at all next summer. I guess time will tell.

flyguy1 wrote:

No love for JFK, unfortunately.

Right, because JFK is definitely underserved to Paris... Oh wait, there are 9 daily flights in summer, with two being A380s.

Also can't complain too much about the variety of airlines JFK sees...

Cointrin330 wrote:

Interesting....and weird adds, given the heavy competition but guessing the French Bee and Corsair POS will be heavily skewed from France, not the US as neither brand are really known on this side of the pond. Yields will be trashed across all the operators, though presumably corporate contracts favor AF/DL, UA, and AA in roughly that order.

Air France is currently offering flights to JFK for 299e return so yields sure must be trash. A few months ago American offered flights for something like 259e return on the route. Level's basic fare starts at 140e one way. I don't see how much lower the new entrants could go to stimulate demand.

BTW will Corsair have a 3-3-3 layout like on the rest of their A330's?

Given the amount of AA' service reductions at JFK recently, I would not be surprised if they'll give up their CDG route with all these new newcomers. Hopefully I am wrong.

Alsatian wrote:

Given the amount of AA' service reductions at JFK recently, I would not be surprised if they'll give up their CDG route with all these new newcomers. Hopefully I am wrong.

I think you’re probably right. Unless corp contracts are sufficient to sustain it, seems more logical they’ll move to PHL.

-G

Thibault973 wrote:

FSDan wrote:

Technically it's 4 different routes, but still one city pair. In addition to there being so many airlines, there's a decent amount of frequency too: AF is 4x daily on JFK-CDG (with 2x daily being A380s), DL is 2x daily in the summer, and UA is 2x daily in the summer. I believe B0 is more than daily on EWR-ORY, and I forget if DY is more than daily on JFK-CDG in the summer...

The city pair should see 113 weekly flights next summer :

ORY - EWR
- La Compagnie 10 weekly 321
- Level 5 weekly 332 (up from 4 in 2019 but down from the up to 3 daily offered by Openskies in S18)
- Corsair daily 339
- French Bee daily 359

ORY-JFK
- Air France daily 77E

CDG-EWR
- United daily 781+ daily 762
- XL daily 333 (they haven't released their plans for next summer yet but the route was flown daily last summer, down from 10 weekly to JFK in S18)

CDG - JFK
- Air France 2 daily 388 + daily 77W and daily 77E
- Delta 2 daily 333
- American daily 77E
- Norwegian daily 789 (down from one daily each to JFK and EWR in 2018 - this flight was operated by Hi Fly 388 all last week)

Its incredible that Paris-New York is 113 weekly across 9 operators whilst London-New York will be 227 weekly across only 6

LHR-JFK
56 BA
33 VS
28 AA
21 DL

LHR-EWR
35 UA
14 BA
7 VS

LGW-JFK
13 DI (this may change)
7 BA
7 VS

LCY-JFK
6 BA (via SNN)

Be interesting when JetBlue how much London and Paris - New York will increase by

Thibault973 wrote:

The city pair should see 113 weekly flights next summer :

ORY - EWR
- Corsair daily 339

Darn I was hoping Corsair would be operating it on the 747.

Gabrielz wrote:

Alsatian wrote:

Given the amount of AA' service reductions at JFK recently, I would not be surprised if they'll give up their CDG route with all these new newcomers. Hopefully I am wrong.

I think you’re probably right. Unless corp contracts are sufficient to sustain it, seems more logical they’ll move to PHL.

-G

They don't really need to move JFK-CDG to PHL since they already have a PHL-CDG flight and presumably could double the service since CDG slots would presumably be avalaible. Ironically, by upgauging from the wretched 767-300ER to the 777-200ER, AA has a competitive product on JFK-CDG for the first time in a long while. JFK-Paris (it started as JFK-ORY) is AA's longest standing NYC TATL route. It was launched in 1987. I think they will stay in the market as long as they fill the front of the plane as the rest of corporate contracts ex JFK are all DL/AF.

CDG is AA's #2 station in Europe after LHR with DFW (it has been operating 2 x daily this summer), MIA, JFK, CLT, PHL, and seasonally from ORD. Amazing that AA can't make CDG work year round from ORD.

Thibault973 wrote:

Cointrin330 wrote:

Interesting....and weird adds, given the heavy competition but guessing the French Bee and Corsair POS will be heavily skewed from France, not the US as neither brand are really known on this side of the pond. Yields will be trashed across all the operators, though presumably corporate contracts favor AF/DL, UA, and AA in roughly that order.

Air France is currently offering flights to JFK for 299e return so yields sure must be trash. A few months ago American offered flights for something like 259e return on the route. Level's basic fare starts at 140e one way. I don't see how much lower the new entrants could go to stimulate demand.

The proper metric isn't the lowest published fare (or the lowest available fare) but the average fare (against trip costs per seat). If they get J walkups at $8,000 to fill 25 of 40 seats they don't care about a few dozen $299 fares in the back.

Alsatian wrote:

Given the amount of AA' service reductions at JFK recently, I would not be surprised if they'll give up their CDG route with all these new newcomers. Hopefully I am wrong.

I would be surprised. CDG is AA's largest non-JV-hub European station, and NYC-CDG is a major business market that AA needs to be in. Vasu Raja commented in one of the recent route announcement "Tell Me Why" episodes that since upgauging all JFK-Europe transatlantic flights to the 772, they have been very profitable.

Also, regarding another poster's comment about moving the flight to PHL: AA's not in the JFK-CDG market to serve connecting traffic to Paris - they're in it to serve the local O&D. That's something they would lose if they moved the capacity to PHL.

AsiaTravel wrote:

flyguy1 wrote:

No love for JFK, unfortunately.

You mean no slot at JFK, unfortunately

No, he means no love for JFK, not 'no slot.' EWR is a lot more up and coming than JFK and should not be looked down upon.

FSDan wrote:

Alsatian wrote:

Given the amount of AA' service reductions at JFK recently, I would not be surprised if they'll give up their CDG route with all these new newcomers. Hopefully I am wrong.

I would be surprised. CDG is AA's largest non-JV-hub European station, and NYC-CDG is a major business market that AA needs to be in. Vasu Raja commented in one of the recent route announcement "Tell Me Why" episodes that since upgauging all JFK-Europe transatlantic flights to the 772, they have been very profitable.

Also, regarding another poster's comment about moving the flight to PHL: AA's not in the JFK-CDG market to serve connecting traffic to Paris - they're in it to serve the local O&D. That's something they would lose if they moved the capacity to PHL.

EXACTLY. And yes, Raja did indeed state on the recent earnings call that JFK long haul is indeed profitable since the switch to the 777 standard on all flights which has a good premium cabin and premium economy as well. JFK-CDG is not about connections on either end, for AA. It is a business route for O&D.

Alsatian wrote:

Given the amount of AA' service reductions at JFK recently, I would not be surprised if they'll give up their CDG route with all these new newcomers. Hopefully I am wrong.

The business class cabin has a very high percentage of full fare passengers and corporate contracts, and premium economy is doing very well on the route. Lots of Concierge Keys and Executive Platinums are flying it since it was switched to the 772 from the dreadful 763. Plus, the cargo AA carries on JFK-CDG-JFK is insanely high. It’s the second most profitable route to Europe from JFK after LHR, of course, so I wouldn’t expect it to be cut. CDG has a much, much higher number of business travelers than MXP or BCN.

Cointrin330 wrote:

Gabrielz wrote:

Alsatian wrote:

Given the amount of AA' service reductions at JFK recently, I would not be surprised if they'll give up their CDG route with all these new newcomers. Hopefully I am wrong.

I think you’re probably right. Unless corp contracts are sufficient to sustain it, seems more logical they’ll move to PHL.

-G

They don't really need to move JFK-CDG to PHL since they already have a PHL-CDG flight and presumably could double the service since CDG slots would presumably be avalaible. Ironically, by upgauging from the wretched 767-300ER to the 777-200ER, AA has a competitive product on JFK-CDG for the first time in a long while. JFK-Paris (it started as JFK-ORY) is AA's longest standing NYC TATL route. It was launched in 1987. I think they will stay in the market as long as they fill the front of the plane as the rest of corporate contracts ex JFK are all DL/AF.

CDG is AA's #2 station in Europe after LHR with DFW (it has been operating 2 x daily this summer), MIA, JFK, CLT, PHL, and seasonally from ORD. Amazing that AA can't make CDG work year round from ORD.

I agree with you but if AA can drop key transcon markets ex JFK like SEA, it is less hard to imagine them axing key transat markets too. CDG-BOS and the second daily CDG-JFK had been cancelled two or three years ago facing a growing competition. But again, I hope I am wrong, I want legacies to stay on historical premium routes.

Which of AA’s six remaining EU routes from JFK are most likely to get cut?

SeanM1997 wrote:

Its incredible that Paris-New York is 113 weekly across 9 operators whilst London-New York will be 227 weekly across only 6

And how many seats does that mean for each markets?

HP69 wrote:

Which of AA’s six remaining EU routes from JFK are most likely to get cut?

Most likely, I would say none. There’s nothing left to cut without losing any FF base AA has left in NYC. However, MXP, BCN and FCO have a lower percentage of business fliers.

Alsatian wrote:

Cointrin330 wrote:

Gabrielz wrote:

I think you’re probably right. Unless corp contracts are sufficient to sustain it, seems more logical they’ll move to PHL.

-G

They don't really need to move JFK-CDG to PHL since they already have a PHL-CDG flight and presumably could double the service since CDG slots would presumably be avalaible. Ironically, by upgauging from the wretched 767-300ER to the 777-200ER, AA has a competitive product on JFK-CDG for the first time in a long while. JFK-Paris (it started as JFK-ORY) is AA's longest standing NYC TATL route. It was launched in 1987. I think they will stay in the market as long as they fill the front of the plane as the rest of corporate contracts ex JFK are all DL/AF.

CDG is AA's #2 station in Europe after LHR with DFW (it has been operating 2 x daily this summer), MIA, JFK, CLT, PHL, and seasonally from ORD. Amazing that AA can't make CDG work year round from ORD.

I agree with you but if AA can drop key transcon markets ex JFK like SEA, it is less hard to imagine them axing key transat markets too. CDG-BOS and the second daily CDG-JFK had been cancelled two or three years ago facing a growing competition. But again, I hope I am wrong, I want legacies to stay on historical premium routes.

But it wouldn’t make good business sense to cut the second most profitable European market for AA out of JFK and keep routes that are far less profitable such as Spain or Italy. I work these trips all the time, I see who’s full fare in business and who isn’t. The percentage of full fare J on the lone CDG flight is as high as the four daily LHR flights. But LHR is a much bigger market.

SCQ83 wrote:

9 carriers in Paris-NYC and there are no flights between Lyon, Marseille, Bordeaux, Nantes or Toulouse to the US. That is French centralism at its best!

No, it's capitalism. If there was enough demand for flights between "secondary" cities and the US, they would exist already.

FYI, Lyon (LYS), Marseille (MRS), Bordeaux (BOD) has direct flights to Montreal (YUL, Air Canada and Air Transat), Nantes (NTE) has direct flights to YUL (Air Transat in season); and Toulouse (TLS) has direct flights to YUL (Air Transat in season, Air Canada starting in June 2020).
Also, LYS & BOD have direct flights to Pointe-a-Pitre (PTP), while NTE & TLS have direct flights to Fort-de-France (FDF) on XL Airways France; while those are French territories/departments, they are, like the US or Canada, across the Atlantic Ocean from France, so the flights are doable.

Bottom line: the idea of "French centralism" and that everything has to go through Paris is outdated.

debonair wrote:

BTW will Corsair have a 3-3-3 layout like on the rest of their A330's?

The press release says 352 seats on the A339, same as the A333 so it has to be 3-3-3 layout.

Alsatian wrote:

Cointrin330 wrote:

Gabrielz wrote:

I think you’re probably right. Unless corp contracts are sufficient to sustain it, seems more logical they’ll move to PHL.

-G

They don't really need to move JFK-CDG to PHL since they already have a PHL-CDG flight and presumably could double the service since CDG slots would presumably be avalaible. Ironically, by upgauging from the wretched 767-300ER to the 777-200ER, AA has a competitive product on JFK-CDG for the first time in a long while. JFK-Paris (it started as JFK-ORY) is AA's longest standing NYC TATL route. It was launched in 1987. I think they will stay in the market as long as they fill the front of the plane as the rest of corporate contracts ex JFK are all DL/AF.

CDG is AA's #2 station in Europe after LHR with DFW (it has been operating 2 x daily this summer), MIA, JFK, CLT, PHL, and seasonally from ORD. Amazing that AA can't make CDG work year round from ORD.

I agree with you but if AA can drop key transcon markets ex JFK like SEA, it is less hard to imagine them axing key transat markets too. CDG-BOS and the second daily CDG-JFK had been cancelled two or three years ago facing a growing competition. But again, I hope I am wrong, I want legacies to stay on historical premium routes.

Isn't SEA a temporary cut attributed to the runway work and the deal AA cut with the DOT to hold onto suspended slots and the MAX groundings which require 737-800s to be shuffled around the system though I agree, a lone JFK-SEA route isn't competitive when you have DL, AS, and B6 in the market as well with DL dominating it and likely taking a ton of NY originating business traffic. The second CDG-JFK route that was operated for a while (AA 120/121) was flown with a 757, a product equally not competitive alongside the 763 which was used for the AA 44/45 flight. The 777 changes that substantially. It is a capacity increase on the 763 it replaced and AA in JFK-CDG is not about frequency. It is about serving the #2 TATL destination ex-NYC.

Cointrin330 wrote:

Alsatian wrote:

Cointrin330 wrote:

They don't really need to move JFK-CDG to PHL since they already have a PHL-CDG flight and presumably could double the service since CDG slots would presumably be avalaible. Ironically, by upgauging from the wretched 767-300ER to the 777-200ER, AA has a competitive product on JFK-CDG for the first time in a long while. JFK-Paris (it started as JFK-ORY) is AA's longest standing NYC TATL route. It was launched in 1987. I think they will stay in the market as long as they fill the front of the plane as the rest of corporate contracts ex JFK are all DL/AF.

CDG is AA's #2 station in Europe after LHR with DFW (it has been operating 2 x daily this summer), MIA, JFK, CLT, PHL, and seasonally from ORD. Amazing that AA can't make CDG work year round from ORD.

I agree with you but if AA can drop key transcon markets ex JFK like SEA, it is less hard to imagine them axing key transat markets too. CDG-BOS and the second daily CDG-JFK had been cancelled two or three years ago facing a growing competition. But again, I hope I am wrong, I want legacies to stay on historical premium routes.

Isn't SEA a temporary cut attributed to the runway work and the deal AA cut with the DOT to hold onto suspended slots and the MAX groundings which require 737-800s to be shuffled around the system though I agree, a lone JFK-SEA route isn't competitive when you have DL, AS, and B6 in the market as well with DL dominating it and likely taking a ton of NY originating business traffic. The second CDG-JFK route that was operated for a while (AA 120/121) was flown with a 757, a product equally not competitive alongside the 763 which was used for the AA 44/45 flight. The 777 changes that substantially. It is a capacity increase on the 763 it replaced and AA in JFK-CDG is not about frequency. It is about serving the #2 TATL destination ex-NYC.

Exactly. There are relatively few connecting passengers on the flight. I’d say it’s about 90-95% who are traveling locally. All this doomsday talk that persists here about the AA JFK-CDG flight is a little tiresome. The route is performing far above any expectations, all due to the 777 flying it.